Is anyone else concerned about 6.0 Summoner?

Rydia having access to Bio is one of the weakest arguments for poison mage SMN that I’ve seen thus far. Anyone who has played FFIV knows that given the opportunity to choose between that and an actual summoning spell, its always better to use a summon. This “unique” summoner some are talking about was garbage in both its aesthetic and its gameplay.

If you’re getting your dopamine rush from...casting poisons as opposed to literally being able to call down Bahamut, Phoenix, and the new full sized Ifrit/Garuda/Titan then you are not who summoner is supposed to appeal to. The poisons were pointless and the egis looked like trash. No seriously, you could crumple up a piece of paper and end up with something that resembles an egi quite easily.

If you’re seriously asking for 3.0 job gameplay then I can only assume you did not play 3.0. Luckily, bow mages and other disastrous job designs are gone for good. I cannot speak for poison mages but for me the novelty of dancer never wore off. It’s still my go to because it nails the job fantasy in terms of its animations and gameplay. It’s extremely easy to find other dancers out in the wild who for the most part love their job.

Now that summoner has been wrested back from the affliction warlocks, just like they’ve told us for the past 8 years to go play another class, the tables have now turned on them. Go play bard, blue mage, or anything really. Summoner must never go back to what it used to be.

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Originally Posted by PoLaD

Why does it seem like we're only going to be spamming Ruin 3 and Outburst, getting new coats of paint on them during trances?

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They didn't look like just coats of paint, they seemed like entirely different abilities to me. IIRC Titan was instant casts, while Ifrit was cast times and a melee ability, and Garuda was casts and a ground AoE.

You have 3 (+2) stances that you have to move through but you can pick the order, and your abilities in each stance are swapped and have different pros and cons. Obviously we haven't seen the full kit, but that seems like a potentially solid amount of complexity.

My main issue would be that it seems like it might tread on Black Mages toes a little, being simple to execute in theory but requiring good knowledge of the fight to actually pull off.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

They didn't look like just coats of paint, they seemed like entirely different abilities to me. IIRC Titan was instant casts, while Ifrit was cast times and a melee ability, and Garuda was casts and a ground AoE.

You have 3 (+2) stances that you have to move through but you can pick the order, and your abilities in each stance are swapped and have different pros and cons. Obviously we haven't seen the full kit, but that seems like a potentially solid amount of complexity.

My main issue would be that it seems like it might tread on Black Mages toes a little, being simple to execute in theory but requiring good knowledge of the fight to actually pull off.

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I dont think it will be too bad if there is some freedom to the rotation and not like bard where you cycle songs in a specific way
but i can see Ifrit being a little annoying like RDM Melee when you are about to cap and you gotta go in but mechanics say otherwise(but endwalker seem to have fixed this for RDM).

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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My comment to MikkoAkure was just pointing out that, yes, a Summoner in the series has had Bio before, when it was stated that one them never has. And it's not the poisons I'm attach to per say. The DoTs didn't have to stay poisoned themed. They could have for example just given us the DoT off Ifrit-Egi's Inferno so it would fit the theme. Could call it Searing Wind.

I've been a SMN main since ARR. And you seemed to have missed my point. I'm upset because it seems we're losing whatever complexity the job had left for flashiness. I play SMN because I like keeping track of multiple things. Between my pet, my DoTs, cooldowns, our long rotation and movement, it's keeps me busy. I'm never bored and this new version of the class doesn't seem to have any of that going for it. I also like having some support. (Speaking of which, why was Resurrection almost on the chopping block but Physick, with all it wonderful use, is still here, apparently without them fixing it?)

As for your suggestion to move on to a new job, none those fill the niche Summoner currently fills. All pet jobs have essentially been killed off other then SCH, and well. And as fun as BLU is... "Limited Job".

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Originally Posted by Jandor

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I was referring to both Bahamut and Phoenix Trances when talking about Ruin 3 and Outburst. Both of those transform during them. I admit I don't really see what the cons are, so if you could elaborate? The cast times on Ifrit and Garuda both seem to be less then 3 seconds. Garuda also only has one cast, the rest are instant. The new stances are also a bit of my problem as it seems that's all we are going to be doing when not using Bahamut or Phoenix for their 15 seconds or so. Pretty much B > those 3 > P > those 3 > B and so on without really seeing anything to break it up. *shrugs*

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude or whiny. I also play SCH half the time, and well, do I really need to explain why I'm frustrated and don't exactly trust the Devs get this right?

I understand that there are people who like SMN as it currently is. As others have stated it is impossible to make everyone happy. That said those upset about these changes need to understand that they address the two biggest complaints SMN has had for awhile. The first one is a complaint that it has had since ARR. That it didn't feel like a real summoner, that it was just a pet class and honestly has been compared to affliction warlock from WoW more often than it has been compared to Summoner from any of the other FF titles. As such, these changes bring it inline to give it the visual appearance of being a true Summoner which, as others have pointed out, call a summon out for one massive attack and then it vanishes. That is how FF summoning works.

The other large complaint about SMN started with HW and only increased with SB and ShB. That is the fact that SMN has the most punishing rotation out of all the casters and yet is not the strongest of the casters. Due to its long burst build up and the myriad of things to focus on it is extremely easy to mess it up and shoot yourself in the foot. We're all human, we make mistakes. But with most classes a single mistake can easily be recovered, with SMN you've pretty much screwed your dps for the entire fight unless it is a really long one. In addition dying as a SMN is far more punishing than any other class, since you not only have to resummon your pet but you also have to start the long arduous process of ramp up all over again. From the looks of it, these changes fix that. Granted we won't know more until the media tour and the embargo lift next month.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Visually it's awesome, mechanically I'd have to wait and see. I don't think there is anything wrong with worrying though. Personally that DoTs are gone is fine, but I also didn't really care to see them gone either, it was mostly a visual concept that I believe they could have achieved with or without them.

Hopefully however this shift is because they believe they've not only done something visually appetizing but also mechanically. In which case double hurray. I do hope carbuncle does something, or.. something.. around those egi lines.. not because I like egi but because watching a little thing stand around and do absolutely nothing just seems a bit weird lol. Maybe they brought back some of the autonomy they had originally (they sort of auto cast stuff unless you told them not to). So for rewording, not a desire to see Egi (I'm fine either way, though I like demi, and I love the visual vibe of 6.0 SMN so far a lot more than all things current), just that a thing standing around apparently doing nothing is a little odd (and maybe I was blind but carby looked like they were twiddling their toes).

On visuals alone I'm super excited and I think FINALLY REALL SUMMONS, TAKE THAT WoW WARLOCK! lol. But mechanically I'd like to try it before commenting. I am capable of split opinion, to much of the potential confusion of others lol..., like I thought the very original SMN (ARR) was one of the most fun to play but just had a really reaaaallly bad "FF Summoner" presence. (Little is just pure one interpretation).


Here's to hopefully summoner both being an amazing visual treat and mechanically a blast to also play!!

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I like the idea of the summoning of the primals and while I would prefer to keep the DoTs as they help strengthen AoE attacks I can live without them. My concern is some posts have claimed that SE has said the primals cannot be summoned in any order I wish to use and that they are in a fixed sequence of one, two, three. This sounds like a one button approach which will take the enjoyment of controlling my character away by no longer allowing me to decide which attack skill is the most appropriate for the situation. I'm hoping this turns out to not be the case and that I will be allowed to use each primal individually in any order. I am willing to wait until we actually see the action bars before deciding what I will do going forward but the current uncertainty is enough to keep me from preordering Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

I dont think it will be too bad if there is some freedom to the rotation and not like bard where you cycle songs in a specific way
but i can see Ifrit being a little annoying like RDM Melee when you are about to cap and you gotta go in but mechanics say otherwise(but endwalker seem to have fixed this for RDM).

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You echo my concerns about summoning the primals and that is the freedom to decide which one to use at what time. If we can do that I think the changes are for the better even though we lose the DoTs which for me helped with AoE damage.

Summoner felt like it was in a weird spot because it was built off of arcanist. Which is even weirder because I believe arcanist was added at the same time wasn't it?

The poison spells I think make sense for a strategic caster, weakening an enemy with disease etc, while commanding a carbuncle pet.

But the smn/sch split was always kind of weird. Role wise, arcanist is dps and summoner feels like it ought to be the main branch from that, also being dps. But the studious, strategic part went more into scholar flavor wise where a lot of those elements fit better. But scholar is healer and a bigger departure gameplay wise because of it from arcanist. Summoner carries over the gameplay more directly as a dps but SCH really feels like the direct continuation in therms of thematics, continuing the tactician angle into the scholar quests.

Early summoner felt like it was built off of a collection of disparate ideas. It was the summon/pet job. But also had remnants of the arcanist 'smart book mage/wizard' type. And also just kind of got the bio stuff by default because black mage was too full to have all its ice/fire/lightning stuff AND poison stuff too.

Over time it's been shedding a lot of that stuff to move more toward a full on summoner. With demi bahamut and phoenix, lowering aetherflow to two charges, now dropping its dots etc.

On the one hand, I'm glad summoner fans are getting something more in line with what you'd expect from a summoner. On the other hand, I miss HW summoner and enjoy the job less and less the more 'summoner' it actually becomes as it sheds the leftover arcanist stuff.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

I like the idea of the summoning of the primals and while I would prefer to keep the DoTs as they help strengthen AoE attacks I can live without them. My concern is some posts have claimed that SE has said the primals cannot be summoned in any order I wish to use and that they are in a fixed sequence of one, two, three. This sounds like a one button approach which will take the enjoyment of controlling my character away by no longer allowing me to decide which attack skill is the most appropriate for the situation. I'm hoping this turns out to not be the case and that I will be allowed to use each primal individually in any order. I am willing to wait until we actually see the action bars before deciding what I will do going forward but the current uncertainty is enough to keep me from preordering Endwalker.

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There is no combo system on the summon spells that say you NEED to summon one before unlocking the other, but you must summon all 3 before your next demi phase or you lose dps. Meaning, the list of things casted should look the same every 2 minutes, just with maybe shuffled orders. My worry is that with nothing to track it's going to just be boring 1 and 2 spam. Slap the cooldown or ammo skill until it stops letting you, etc.

And there's probably going to be an optimal burst phase order where you will want to make sure all of ifrit fits within the buff windows, and either garuda's dot snapshot, or (if they mess the numbers up) as much of titan's clap combo before the buffs wear off, depending on how the numbers work out. And that buff window is gonna be... uh... welp, every 2 minutes (devotion Searing light lasting 30s with 120s cooldown means it'll cover all of bahamut (duration 15s, cooldown 60s), and less than 2 semidemis, every full rotation). :T

So really the only "choice" you get is the decision on if the target is going to move out of your floor aoe or not, and if mechanics aren't going to let you use ifrit before you lose time on your next demi summon.
Seems like the only difficulty this job will provide is just making sure you don't drop your gcds between demis.

Summoner looks awesome. I know that we're here to complain about it, but the hype is real ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes..it looks awesome but is it gonna play awesome? That is the concern that all of us SMN mains have. I was excited until I saw how small that hot bar looked during the demonstration. I fell in love with the job because of how complex it was. It because of this I didn’t even feel like I was doing a rotation and could change it on the fly alongside the fight changes. The instant cast spells might, ironically, be even more unforgiving if we can’t decide when to use the different phases/stances for ourselves. I rather we have interactive pets instead of a pretty animation, especially if it means the job becoming boring as hell all for the sake of nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Rydia having access to Bio is one of the weakest arguments for poison mage SMN that I’ve seen thus far. Anyone who has played FFIV knows that given the opportunity to choose between that and an actual summoning spell, its always better to use a summon. This “unique” summoner some are talking about was garbage in both its aesthetic and its gameplay.

If you’re getting your dopamine rush from...casting poisons as opposed to literally being able to call down Bahamut, Phoenix, and the new full sized Ifrit/Garuda/Titan then you are not who summoner is supposed to appeal to. The poisons were pointless and the egis looked like trash. No seriously, you could crumple up a piece of paper and end up with something that resembles an egi quite easily.

If you’re seriously asking for 3.0 job gameplay then I can only assume you did not play 3.0. Luckily, bow mages and other disastrous job designs are gone for good. I cannot speak for poison mages but for me the novelty of dancer never wore off. It’s still my go to because it nails the job fantasy in terms of its animations and gameplay. It’s extremely easy to find other dancers out in the wild who for the most part love their job.

Now that summoner has been wrested back from the affliction warlocks, just like they’ve told us for the past 8 years to go play another class, the tables have now turned on them. Go play bard, blue mage, or anything really. Summoner must never go back to what it used to be.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. I hope they build off this new iteration of summoner for future expansions.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Yes..it looks awesome but is it gonna play awesome? That is the concern that all of us SMN mains have. I was excited until I saw how small that hot bar looked during the demonstration. I fell in love with the job because of how complex it was. It because of this I didn’t even feel like I was doing a rotation and could change it on the fly alongside the fight changes. The instant cast spells might, ironically, be even more unforgiving if we can’t decide when to use the different phases/stances for ourselves. I rather we have interactive pets instead of a pretty animation, especially if it means the job becoming boring as hell all for the sake of nostalgia.

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Yeah parts of a fight where bosses go untargettable are going to be infuriating.

And while the current smn rotation is just as concrete, you have more moment-by-moment decisions going on that distract you from that very rigid dance.

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Originally Posted by PoLaD

Rydia from FF4 had Bio, as well as Poison, as part of her skillset. Egi Assaults could be scene as the equivalent of say, ordering Anima to use Pain in FF10 or using your ATB to order Leviathan to use Briny Bellow in the FF7R for a more recent example.

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Rydia was a black mage/summoner hybrid and that's why she had bio. You missed my whole point about the job system and true summoners for a "gotcha moment". It's like saying that dragoon needs white wind or self-destruct because Kimhari was a dragoon/blue mage hybrid and he had those spells.

I also didn't say that egi assault didn't have an equivalent, I said that it's not a loss. At least to me, weaving those assaults in my rotation isn't compelling gameplay, it's just frustrating.

As an smn main since SB(when I started playing the game) I am excited about the changes and liked what I saw for smn. Im hoping that this new smn will stop the meme of smn being a new job every expac and the dev team finally has a solid foundation to build on. As for those who dislike the changes I understand their worried the job going to be too easy and what not but at the same time I rather them gut the job and create something that they can build on going forward rather than trying to fix the problems that they clearly couldn't fix. Like they have been trying for years to fix the pet ai and failed every time. Either way if it turns out I hate the new smn I have my backup jobs, reaper looks really fun and I love dnc so I will be fine going forward. The best advice to ppl who hate the new smn is to wait and see how the job plays, and if you still don't like it try to find a new job to enjoy. This game has so many jobs to choose from and I think it smart to always have a backup job and if there aren't any other jobs you care for then I really don't know what to say.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Rydia having access to Bio is one of the weakest arguments for poison mage SMN that I’ve seen thus far. Anyone who has played FFIV knows that given the opportunity to choose between that and an actual summoning spell, its always better to use a summon. This “unique” summoner some are talking about was garbage in both its aesthetic and its gameplay.

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What's funny is Rydia can do more dps with black magic than her summons

It may get me to play FFXIV more than one month.

I played the beta, but could never get into it like XI.

They got the summon looks down; it looks amazing. I really want a pet class that can get me into XIV beyond jumping in during events, this may do the trick. We shall see.....

As someone who's not playing SMN that much, I'm not really worried about the gameplay aspect of the change, but more...about the visual side of things.

I mean, most of us probably remember the Demi-Bahamut situation before /bahamutsize small existed. Somehow, it was always in the way of the camera. The same might be the case now, the summons could cause some camerablocking in some of the raids.

Also, even with the summons only being out for like 3-5 seconds once you go into their stance, they also do the same animations the primals do during their ultimates in their trials, which is quite flashy even in comparison to other game effects. I wonder if they'll give us some sort of command that lets us make the summons smaller too and dampen the effects, without having to shut down ALL the battle effects at once.

But I'm probably the only one thinking about weird stuff like this xD

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Originally Posted by Aniise

I wonder if they'll give us some sort of command that lets us make the summons smaller too and dampen the effects, without having to shut down ALL the battle effects at once.

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You're not the only one thinking of this, they said they'd include something for the primal summon sizes.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

As someone who's not playing SMN that much, I'm not really worried about the gameplay aspect of the change, but more...about the visual side of things.

I mean, most of us probably remember the Demi-Bahamut situation before /bahamutsize small existed. Somehow, it was always in the way of the camera. The same might be the case now, the summons could cause some camerablocking in some of the raids.

Also, even with the summons only being out for like 3-5 seconds once you go into their stance, they also do the same animations the primals do during their ultimates in their trials, which is quite flashy even in comparison to other game effects. I wonder if they'll give us some sort of command that lets us make the summons smaller too and dampen the effects, without having to shut down ALL the battle effects at once.

But I'm probably the only one thinking about weird stuff like this xD

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Those are good points as the large Demi-Bahamut always bothered me until the command to resize it was added. The way certain effects washout other information on my HUD today are also a concern which as you suggest might be compounded by the new skills.

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Originally Posted by Roda

You're not the only one thinking of this, they said they'd include something for the primal summon sizes.

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They didn't just say it. Yoshi's Summons (And Demi Summons) were much smaller than in the trailer. Unclear if they are sized separately (I Feel Bahamut should be bigger than the other summons, Demi or not).

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

They didn't just say it. Yoshi's Summons (And Demi Summons) were much smaller than in the trailer. Unclear if they are sized separately (I Feel Bahamut should be bigger than the other summons, Demi or not).

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Oh okay, that is reassuring then. I only watched the jobtrailer and didn't have time to watch the rest of the liveletter yet. If they give us that option, I guess I didn't have to be concerned in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

They didn't just say it. Yoshi's Summons (And Demi Summons) were much smaller than in the trailer. Unclear if they are sized separately (I Feel Bahamut should be bigger than the other summons, Demi or not).

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"I set [Titan's] size to be small"

Edit: Misread your post to say "they didn't say it" oops.

I'm tired of the weak arguments of Summoner was never this in other FF games. Maybe you should go back and play all the titles again because clearly you didn't even know what Summoner was through the many titles.

FFI and II didn't have summoner
FFIII had Sumoner; a Mage job that would cast magical beast either provided offense or defense effects.
FFIV was a Black Mage / Summoner Hybrid so yea, Rydia could cast poison, bio, and virus.
FFV Summoner; a Mage job that would cast magical beast either provided offense or defense effects. On top of that players could subjob BLM, RDM, WHM
FFVI through FFVIII; players equipped summons to learn spells and abilites
FFIX, FFX, FFXI; Summoner was a White Mage / Summoner Hybird
FFXI, FFXII & FFXIII; Summons were pet like

So surprise, Summoner comes in all shapes and sizes. FFXIV was all about management, might be why they had books as weapons.... You had to manage your MP, your Aetherflow, your Pets, your DoTs, what targets to attack. Slowly SE's brilliance has chipped away at concepts many SMN mains enjoyed. I wonder if all the people who say they welcome these changes are also going to the ones to drop the job they currently play and main Summoner 6.0.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

What's funny is Rydia can do more dps with black magic than her summons

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Seriously. Bio has a cast time of 0 and a potency of 128 in the 2D versions of Final Fantasy IV. It comes out practically the moment you start casting it, and hits harder than -a spells and most Summons available at the same level, with only Titan coming out ahead. And much later in the game, once you have access to Flare (0 casting time, 400 potency), it's considerably faster to throw out than the strongest available summon, Bahamut (3 casting time, 480 potency). To say nothing of the horribly overpriced and overrated Meteor (10 casting time, 800 potency).

It's only in the 3D versions of FFIV that Bio loses its luster, with its potency being slashed down to 40. But that game nerfed practically all of Rydia's kit, with most if not all of the mid-to-late summons having a cast time of 6-10.

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Originally Posted by Roda

"I set [Titan's] size to be small"

Edit: Misread your post to say "they didn't say it" oops.

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However next to a Lalafell even small things appear to be rather large. It would be nice to see the primals against other races for a better size perspective.

I don't think we need new primals, it would just be nice to have as a bonus. I also don't think we won't see new ones in the future, it's probably going to have to wait for the new stuff to get in and further balanced. If not, it would be a rather disappointing thing for Summoners to only have the same set for the rest of the game.

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Originally Posted by Rhyagelle

I don't think we need new primals, it would just be nice to have as a bonus. I also don't think we won't see new ones in the future, it's probably going to have to wait for the new stuff to get in and further balanced. If not, it would be a rather disappointing thing for Summoners to only have the same set for the rest of the game.

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Exactly. This not only brings SMN much more in line with the traditional concept of Summoner" from the series history but also opens a rather easy path for upgrading SMN in the future. All they will need to do in, say, 7.0 is give us a new primal to summon. It could also open interesting strategic options where maybe you'll only ever be able to summon 3 primals between Bahamut and Phoenix and you'll have to choose the best 3 depending on the situation and the fight you're doing.

* And yes, to those who have found reason to complain, Summoner has changed a bit over the course of the series in actual mechanics, but if you were to ask any long time fan of the series what a Summoner was they would tell you it's a class that can summon primals/eikons/etc. The new FF14 Summoner is much, much more in line with the traditional known and accepted concept of Summoner than the previous version was.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I'm tired of the weak arguments of Summoner was never this in other FF games. Maybe you should go back and play all the titles again because clearly you didn't even know what Summoner was through the many titles.

So surprise, Summoner comes in all shapes and sizes. FFXIV was all about management, might be why they had books as weapons.... You had to manage your MP, your Aetherflow, your Pets, your DoTs, what targets to attack. Slowly SE's brilliance has chipped away at concepts many SMN mains enjoyed. I wonder if all the people who say they welcome these changes are also going to the ones to drop the job they currently play and main Summoner 6.0.

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"Summoner" in games where you did more than summon was "Summoner" mixed with something else. When you take something and mix it with something else, it doesn't mean that all the elements of the thing that is added are immediately applied to the other part of it for future incarnations of the original as well. Just because Rydia could cast black magic doesn't mean that all summoners should and that it's a vital part of their identity. Just like how blue magic is not a part of the core identity of dragoons, chemists are not a part of the core identity of thieves, and archery is not a part of the core identity of bard.

You could argue that if they decided to cast away classes and bard was made its own thing separate from bows and archery and ranger was made a separate thing, there would be rejoicing. I'm pretty sure there's been many threads asking for just that.

Unless they have an interview where they specifically go into the why, it's up to guesswork for why they're making SMN like this. But it's not like it's coming out of nowhere either. Yoshi-P has said in past interviews that balancing pet classes is a nightmare and we've seen the pets for SMN, SCH, and MCH dialed back and back every expansion. The hotbar and rotations for SMN have also ended up getting bloated as more and more is tacked onto the end without being woven in, like how it usually is for the other jobs. After adding another stance on top of it all, they really needed to go back and take another look at the job to see what they want to do with it and what it should be.

I played SMN since ARR and while casting all the DoTs (including lightning when we could), and then spreading them and blowing them up was fun back then, I can see where right now SMN has two separate and conflicting concepts and they needed to go back to the drawing board. Even as a past SMN main who liked the old days, losing DoTs does not feel as bad as when they took time spells away from AST. Trading off the DoTs, which I always thought was kind of weird to be on a summoner, for a different yet hopefully complex rotation that revolves around the existing trances and demi summons might be a nice and refreshing change.

But ultimately all we have on how future SMN will work is 1 video so I think we can hold off on the gloom and doom. At least until media tour comes around and we actually know the full scope of what's happening. And yes, I'm going to abandon my current main to go back to SMN when 6.0 drops.

I'll decide and voice my opinion about Summoner once I got to play all the new additions and changes.
All this prediction and assuming is just pure nonsense, imo. They even stated all jobs are subject to change - and at most - you guys should at least be patient for the official job guide, which shouldn't be far away.

Just because they change a job, doesnt mean every player has to MAIN it. Everyone had to be a Machinist by now, after how many reworks?

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Originally Posted by Rhyagelle

I don't think we need new primals, it would just be nice to have as a bonus. I also don't think we won't see new ones in the future, it's probably going to have to wait for the new stuff to get in and further balanced. If not, it would be a rather disappointing thing for Summoners to only have the same set for the rest of the game.

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well i would like Odin to become the third big trance primal with Bahamut and phoenix
just make sense honestly.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

well i would like Odin to become the third big trance primal with Bahamut and phoenix
just make sense honestly.

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Odin would be a rad demi to have (if they let us BECOME odin, and have a melee 3 hit combo)

But I'd be wary of tacking more demis onto the rotation willy-nilly, as it leaves very little room for the rotation to grow, or it will cause the rotation to become wildly unwieldly.

I'm honestly far more in favor of having a library of demi summons to use, but only using one full demi per rotation, giving that demi far more influence over the gameplay style (like 60/40~50/50 maintenance/demi phases vs 75/25), and having meaningful gameplay variance at the demi summon choice rather than the maintenance phase. (Say, having one focused around hardcasting and fight confidence (bahamut), one focused around mobility (phoenix), and one focsued on being a greedy bastard (odin), and hell, have one be a very survival/utility focused demi (Thordan or alex) for doing cool solo stuff, or disaster-prog I guess. And just having a priority system based on what the fight calls for.)

Not that any of this will matter for endwalker though, but I hope they are careful with their next additions to the job.
'Cause I predict they're going to go into 7.0 and give us the remaining 2.X primals on our post-phoenix maintenance phase, and then as they're prepping for 8.0 they'll go "oh no. We've got no more room on this rotation. 'Guess we'll have to overhaul this again!"

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Originally Posted by Roda

Odin would be a rad demi to have (if they let us BECOME odin, and have a melee 3 hit combo)

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That would be incredibly cool. Perhaps too cool. "Okay, so as a Summoner, you conjure one pet creature, invoke the powers of three more, do both for an additional two, and use a sword to use the powers of another by allowing it to use it's morphing powers over you while protecting yourself from the mind control aspects with the Echo." "Yes. Did I mention I also use a smattering of other spells to absorb the life force of my foes? I used to poison them but that felt a little off brand."

I mean zantetsuken is really the primal, odin is just the one who wields it. So it only makes sense.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I used to poison them but that felt a little off brand."

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Still say we could've gotten a dia/glare-like rebrand/upgrade to our dots that was just us slowly tempering our enemies.

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Originally Posted by Roda

"I set [Titan's] size to be small"

Edit: Misread your post to say "they didn't say it" oops.

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I think it's great for these sorts of settings, like I love the flashy effects of this game in general but only for a small number of players.

I generally, probably to the extent to say "greatly", dislike all the flash going on at once in large numbers of players (my PC can handle S rank hunts with full visual effects, I however don't enjoy looking at all the noise lol). Hence I've turned off all non-party effects, just a better looking world (imo) yet I still also get to enjoy really flashy effects. Rather than say someone complaining that my effects are too cool and they need to be nerfed so they can see better.

Which is to say I prefer image control options over just excluding the 'epic' and potentially guady effects that are more sterotypically thought of as FF sRPG effects (naturally some things still are just like "lol, no").

One thing that might do as well is say SMN has default to the full size for self meanwhile everyone else's summons are default to medium (with being able to turn it to large / small as options). As I might think to myself I'd love to have my pets huge but I don't really need to see yours like that.

A live action example of where I think such thoughts work well is Diablo 3 and their pets. For yourself you can fill the screen with a huge zoo and it can be screen filling nonsense but it's also awesome feeling if you're into huge zerg pet builds. Yet for others your pets are a bit see-through, which allows for other players to read the game screen still.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So surprise, Summoner comes in all shapes and sizes. FFXIV was all about management, might be why they had books as weapons.... You had to manage your MP, your Aetherflow, your Pets, your DoTs, what targets to attack. Slowly SE's brilliance has chipped away at concepts many SMN mains enjoyed. I wonder if all the people who say they welcome these changes are also going to the ones to drop the job they currently play and main Summoner 6.0.

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I know you're speaking generally here but just to be clear there were some who didn't have fixed visions of dismantling the current summoner, simply enhancing the visual nature. Of course I've been clear that I wouldn't mind either way so long as it's fun in the end (but that's an "I" not a we, big changes can feel like a rug being pulled out), but not everyone who is excited now (or had wanted visual enhancements) was like "everything must go". I hope when the job comes out that it is fun to play and people will appreciate it though, I'm loving the visuals but I can understand the change is significant and that comes with consequences, but hopefully when it hits the ground most people are going to feel it's either equally fun or more fun.

Just to add to that line of FF history thought though, I agree gameplay wise summoner has been all over the place, but I would say -every- -single- interpterion of FF SMN but FFXIV (pre-demi) was this epic over the top grand magic that summons otherworldly beings. So.. kind of important that the one true consistent element in every single vision of the job is represented (naturally that doesn't require DoTs or whatever to die horribly, they could have been primal theme'd dot spell effects or what have you).

Anyway, I still look forward to playing it due to visually watching the job, but of course I do hope they ensured it's also fun (which others can be worried / annoyed in advance, that's fine, but I'll just wait and see).

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Originally Posted by Eloah

With this rework, why weren't we able to acquire additional Primals/Egis? That is a key feature that many players have wanted since 2.0. With this rework, it would of been the perfect opportunity to add in at least Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva.

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Not sure if it was mentioned already, but I believe there is actually reasons tied up in SMN lore as to why the WoL can't get the other Egis/primals. It was also made canon in ShB that the WoL simply isn't all that great at summoning. It was taken even further when they mentioned that these primals the SMN is summoning in the trailer are still not the actual primals. That would be bad xD.

Anywho, I've played SMN enough to know that I don't like it currently, and while the trailer was visually impressive; it still isn't grabbing me. However, I am wondering if the changes have stripped it of being a true pet class. I think that's gone. Carby doesn't do anything, and while there will be Egi glamours there are no commands to give them.

I also remember SMN in FFXI. It was a lot of fun to play, and I don't think we are quite getting that SMN. I remember XI SMN having the host of their abilities being done by the summon. They had many to choose from, and a bit more freedom with which ones they brought into battle instead of a forced rotation like what we've seen in the trailer.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I mean zantetsuken is really the primal, odin is just the one who wields it. So it only makes sense.



Still say we could've gotten a dia/glare-like rebrand/upgrade to our dots that was just us slowly tempering our enemies.

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i always felt they didn't need to remove the dots just upgrade them to primal themed aswell,
easily could have made the dots water and ice theme instead of poison.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

well i would like Odin to become the third big trance primal with Bahamut and phoenix
just make sense honestly.

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I would love a demi-Odin option, I'm not sure that he makes sense as a third big trance primal though. The lore excuse for Bahamut and Phoenix was, IIRC, that even if you've not done their content their aether has still touched you as a result of the calamity and the scars they've left on the landscape, Odin doesn't have that going for him.

It'd be cool if you could get other options by doing some sidequests though, unlocking Odin, Ramuh, Shiva, Leviathan & Alexander reskins for Bahamut, Ifrit, Titan, Garuda & Phoenix by doing their respective FATES/Trials/Raids.

That might be asking too much though so soon after such a big rework. They probably don't want to close off future options for expanding the job moving forward either.

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I hope Summoner LB3 got spruced up a little. I don't feel it fits quite as well as it did back in HW.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I would love a demi-Odin option, I'm not sure that he makes sense as a third big trance primal though. The lore excuse for Bahamut and Phoenix was, IIRC, that even if you've not done their content their aether has still touched you as a result of the calamity and the scars they've left on the landscape, Odin doesn't have that going for him.

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If only job quests were still a thing... >:T

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I hope Summoner LB3 got spruced up a little. I don't feel it fits quite as well as it did back in HW.

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RAINBOW CARBUNCLE STAMPEDE, C'MON SE.
(Complete with rainbow-colored, carbuncle shaped mushroom cloud on the impact site.)

Honestly those reworks feels like the Death knocking on door meme.
Except it's Yoshida knocking on SMN/MNK door after draining the fun out of DRK/MCH.

Welcome, take a seat and enjoy the casual meals.
SMN being a favorite you may have something extra for 7.0 and will be able to leave the room.

Until then... Be bored with us. We lost the exciting wildfire combo to be replaced with a mindless spam, you're coming down with us.