In-Game music - do you like it??

The music in this game is so good that I have it on my spotify. Also was happy to see the OST of it come over to spotify recently.

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

I'm gonna just carry on as normal, came to the forums to basically complain about the cheap and honestly terrible synth arrangements of soundtrack accompanying the entire game.

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

I really am not sure if this thread belongs on this particular part of the forum, but I just wanted to share with you all the fact that I find the soundtrack accompanying you through the entire game lacking "very much and more". I graduated from Prague Music Conservatory as a pianist, composer and conductor - so I accept my personal bias based on my education. Most of the music is as if made from a soundbank of some cheap £60 Yamaha keyboard, the instruments are terribly synthetic, especially Strings and Brass. It was tolerable until level 60. But now, ever since I entered the Stormblood campaign, it's now so terrible that I created this account only to make this post. It would seem, that they employed "some" acoustic instruments like Guitar and Lute, but in a very chamber setting, consisting mostly two, sometimes up to FOUR tracks (compared to standard 19-21 with average size enssemble) - and trust me I could do some of this (if not most) when I was 10yo.

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

omg YES! My entire point being, why can't we have THAT in the game??? Instead of watered down synthesized version that smells like a dozen rotten eggs dropped in a vat of vinegar!

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*(Narrows his eyes)*-- Now I'm certain you're just trolling with a secondary agenda to increase your post count-- your opinion is actually now moot especially since you have yet to complete Shadowbringers. Nobody should ever associate those words you mentioned above with Soken-sama's music.

Ever.

If after listening to just "In the Belly of the Beast", Mortal Instants, Civilizations (La-Hee), To The Edge, Insanity, The New Nest -- to mention a few -- and you assume you would rattle off disparaging remarks about Soken's music without proper cause, then I reckon you're just babbling for attention.

As several others have mentioned in the thread, do please post up your own original compositions and lets judge them. I find it curiously interesting that you said you graduated from Prague Music Conservatory-- Alex (Alex Moukala) also lives in Prague, plays FFXIV and does music-- here's "Insanity", one of many examples of covers that he did with Husky and a few other very talented players on You Tube. Those are superbly trained people in music who understand the nuances, appreciate the resonance of harmony, and the intricate genius of FFXIV's music.

You on the other hand sat down, analyzed, and deliberately judged FFXIV's music in a poor light-- and from where I come from, there is a very powerful saying: You either be as good or better --or hold your peace. As such, please upload any of your finest compositions so we all might have the pleasure of analyzing it-- afterall, you've been at it since you were ten; therefore, it's obvious you'll have a wealth of samples to share from your creative catalogue. So do please share-- constructive feedback is always crucially essential for ones without creative evolution.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

*(Narrows his eyes)*-- Now I'm certain you're just trolling with a secondary agenda to increase your post count-- your opinion is actually now moot especially since you have yet to complete Shadowbringers. Nobody should ever associate those words you mentioned above with Soken-sama's music.

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I really don't spend my time on a videogame forums and don't even remotely care about post count (lol??). I suppose there's people who do. As far as Shadowbringers go with music, I literally muted music in Crystarium, just bloody awful. Though it's early to say about the rest since only just started the 70-80 questline. There's FF concert in Albert Hall on 19th Sep. If you happen to sit in grand tier 16, next to seat 9, I'll be happy to shake your hand.

I still have yet to hear OPs salacious tunes. I'd love to hear the music of such a well studied Prague graduate!

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

I really don't spend my time on a videogame forums and don't even remotely care about post count (lol??). I suppose there's people who do. As far as Shadowbringers go with music, I literally muted music in Crystarium, just bloody awful. Though it's early to say about the rest since only just started the 70-80 questline. There's FF concert in Albert Hall on 19th Sep. If you happen to sit in grand tier 16, next to seat 9, I'll be happy to shake your hand.

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Okay I thought I had stated everything I wanted to say on this subject, but further thought made me realize more needed to be clarified, particularly why synthesizer is prefered over 'traditional' instruments, and also a bit of the thought that goes into the actual compositions for each piece in the game (based on personal feelings and information from the composer/s him/themselves).

Firstly, the whole synthesizer/traditional instrument debate. This comes down to personal preference but for me, it's horses for courses, synthesizer is simply another instrument in a composer's arsenal, able to stand in for at the least piano/organ, if not a whole orchestra. And before you pass judgement on electronic instruments in general, your studies of classical music should have surely shown you that in from the beginnings of the 20th century on electronic instruments started to be developed and experimented with among 'traditional' instruments in orchestras - beginning with the famous theremin (beloved in countless haunted house films for a century ;)). And that is essentially, a very primitive and early synthesizer. And now, with modern technology, a synthesizer can pretty much replicate an entire orchestra very well - of course there is still a slight bit of audio uncanny valley going on, which I presume is the reason for your dislike of synthesizer music in general, which is fine, but I still like it as a genre on it's own.

And that brings me to why it's used and prefered in game music, including FFXIV. And a lot of it is simply pragmatism. You might not realize it (or maybe you do but consider it irrelevant) but having to use a full orchestra with fully pre-recorded orchestral music for a game like FFXIV would be extremely expensive, as each musician needs to be paid for, which for an average symphony orchestra has around 20-30 musicians, would be very expensive to do, over a long period of time, to record upwards of 500 tracks that FFXIV currently has in it's soundtrack. On top of that you need a large enough dedicated studio for recording which would be occupied for an extended length of time for the required amount of tracks, so again that increases the cost to SE.

Compare that to a single composer using a top of the line synthesizer and related sound platform like Masasyoshi Soken and Nobuo Uematsu use and the cost comes way way down. The fruits of their work as able to be seen immediately and any adjustments or changes can be easily and quickly implemented, instead of having to recall the entire orchestra again to play a new or changed track that has to be recorded again from scratch. And as Soken is also the game's Sound Director as well as main composer, he is responsible for the use of sound effects in the game as well as the music, and thus a synthesizer is well placed for ensuring music and sound effects function in the game effectively.

Another reason why synthesized music is prefeable in general use in games compared to fully orchestrated recordings is from a technical perspective. Game developers are mindful of the overall size of games and the need for game components to function immediately, and sound/music is especially important, especially when it comes to file sizes. Of course in these days of 2+TB hard drives it's not quite as much of a problem for keeping games as small as possible, but they still need to be mindful of overall game program size, and a game would be quickly bogged down by recorded music files. Sure, you could use audio compression like MP3 or FLAC, but that then adds an extra layer of complexity to the whole thing, as the computer now has to decompress the music file before it can be used, which especially in a very large game with already hundreds or thousands of processes happening at the same time, it would makle the game load far far slower and/or lag badly, especially in real-time games. MIDI is therefore still very very popular in gaming because of it's simplicity, all the game has to do is hand over the process of making the sound/music file to the computer's sound chip to do, rather than have to decompress and play a recorded file. MIDI 'files' are therefore just an instruction to the sound processor and thus are very very tiny (a couple of KBs if that). This is how games like the FF series traditionally handled music.

Having said that (and to perhaps confuse the situation a bit), FFXIV does use prerecorded tracks that are synthesized, for the reason I previously mentioned. It's easy and quick to produce them or alter them if required, and furthermore, given game music has to often repeat for as long as it's needed (rather than fading out and then restarting), it's far easier to edit for cueing purposes. Hence prerecorded orchestral tracks are more commonly used for certain situations, especially cutscenes, as they provide a better emotional feeling and response, and, are not required to repeat or be cued. And this leads me to my final point.

I mentioned this in my first post but it is worth repeating here, that a lot of thought goes into each track as to how it is used. Music in FFXIV is not just music to be listened to for music's sake (although you can certainly do just that, I do it myself!), but it is also a leitmotif, a theme connected to a certain area, place, person or situation in the game's story, and it's meant to enhance the emotional aspect of that situation, and through certain instruments, sounds or melodies is meant to be symbolic or metaphorical of what is happening on screen. An example of what I am trying to get across is a track from the Shadowbringers OST in particular which a few people pointed already (although it's a place in the expansion you haven't yet reached it appears, so this will be spoilered going in, but I'll try to be as generic as possible): Mortal Instants, by Masayoshi Soken, the theme for

Amaurot, the final dungeon for ShB.

This theme is a remix of the themes for the Tempest Full Fathom Five and the theme for the Amaurot reconstruction Neath Dark Waters, but far more hectic and urgent. The harsh strings and percussion and the wailing voices drive home what is being seen on screen - you're literally experiencing every aspect of the apocalypse that destroyed the Ascians' civilization, seeing tall skyscrapers collapsing while fire and brimstone rain down from the sky and people run around pannicking and dying in the streets, as their very fears and nightmares are given flesh, all the while Emet is describing the destruction and bloodshed in graphic detail as you fight your way through the chaos, culminating in being taken into outer space as the original planet literally burns in agony below, the music really enhances the emotion on screen.

Playing it without that track or any music in general would not have the same effect, it would be much blander.

This is simply one example of the thought that goes into making game music, and using a synthesizer to accomplish that is simply using the best tool for the job.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I still have yet to hear OPs salacious tunes. I'd love to hear the music of such a well studied Prague graduate!

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To be fair, you can probably already hear their work, or at least something that sounds just like it, in a million places. It seems like they would prefer the booming, grand orchestral compositions (likely backed by full choir) that can be found literally everywhere else and are so generic at this point it kind of hurts.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

To be fair, you can probably already hear their work, or at least something that sounds just like it, in a million places. It seems like they would prefer the booming, grand orchestral compositions (likely backed by full choir) that can be found literally everywhere else and are so generic at this point it kind of hurts.

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Yeah. Part of the reason I love FFXIV is that they KNOW when to use booming, grand orchestral compositions and pair them quite well with synth sounds to create this overall unique atmosphere.

But generic fantasy mmo soundtrack 1 has been done before… a lot.

I like XIV music. My favorite City State is Gridina (I know I'm spelling it wrong.) I like the Crystaruim music. Hopefully some of Hamauzu music can be incorporated into XIV or have him make some new music. I really like the music he puts in the games I've played

City State as in the music...

Soken provide alot of variety within the soundtrack of FFXIV, especially with Shadowbringers. The Shadowbringers OST is a masterpiece! I would say, there is a track for almost every purpose:


If you want some orchestra:
- Shadowbringers (Main Theme)
- The Dark Which Illuminates the World (Crystarium)
- High Treason (Mission)

If you want to feel sad:
- Tears in the Rain
- Sands of Amber (Ahm Araeng)

If you want to feel happy (didnt find something fast in the shadowbringers OST):
- Seven Hundred Seventy-Seven Whiskers (Namazu)
- Papaya (Eastern)

If you want to fight:
- Ruby Weapon Theme (or if you want to eat big fat tacos)
- Insatiable (Dungeon Boss)

If you want to dance:
- Return to Oblivion (Eden 8)
- Who Brings Shadow (Hades)
- A Long Fall (The Twinning)

If you want to worship our lord and savior, the one who forgive your sins and lead us into the true paradise:
- Insanity (Innocence)

And lets dont forget the Seat of Sacrifice:
- To the Edge

Or the tracks from Nier Automata (which are in FFXIV):
- Alien Manifestation (Copied Factory)
- Bipolar Nightmare (Engels)
- End of The Unknown (Heavy Artillery Unit)


Seriously... What the hell do you want more?

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

I really am not sure if this thread belongs on this particular part of the forum, but I just wanted to share with you all the fact that I find the soundtrack accompanying you through the entire game lacking "very much and more". I graduated from Prague Music Conservatory as a pianist, composer and conductor - so I accept my personal bias based on my education.

Most of the music is as if made from a soundbank of some cheap £60 Yamaha keyboard, the instruments are terribly synthetic, especially Strings and Brass. It was tolerable until level 60. But now, ever since I entered the Stormblood campaign, it's now so terrible that I created this account only to make this post. It would seem, that they employed "some" acoustic instruments like Guitar and Lute, but in a very chamber setting, consisting mostly two, sometimes up to FOUR tracks (compared to standard 19-21 with average size enssemble) - and trust me I could do some of this (if not most) when I was 10yo.

For a game that is presumably now the most played MMO (yes, me too hanged 10+ years of WoW for sake of FF14), and for the epic and absolutely captivating story, did SE not thought to employ and actual composer and hire an orchestra to best capture ambience of the vast areas of the game world? As much as I dislike WoW more and more with every passing hour spent in FF14, their music is entirely different world in comparison.

I could be wrong, but the game literally "sounds" like the music was 1-man job, some basic version of LogicPro and MIDI keyboard. This game deserves so much more!!! Not saying "hire me" or anything, but yeah, I could do far better xD

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Having graduated from some conservatory doesn't mean you automatically are the most skilled musician, to be honest. I've got friends who graduated from Vienna conservatory, although most of them only really know how to play one instrument. Consider, if you will, that Masayoshi Soken improvised A LOT of instruments on the spot (The maracas in Costa del Sol aren't "maracas"), and he plays more than one instrument. And if I'm not mistaken, a few songs were intonated by Soken-san himself, so that's an achievement.
A bit of advice: if you come here to brag about your qualities, at least show a portfolio for comparison. I'm sure many of us want to rate your creations. :)

OP, to try and less aggressively respond...

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

For a game that is presumably now the most played MMO (yes, me too hanged 10+ years of WoW for sake of FF14), and for the epic and absolutely captivating story, did SE not thought to employ and actual composer and hire an orchestra to best capture ambience of the vast areas of the game world?

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I think games with more orchestration are generally ones with longer development cycles...
Take into consideration that most companies generally take 4-6 years to develop a game.
FF14, on the other hand, puts out a new expac every 2 years, with no corners cut on the number of new songs added in each.
Doing that with a composer at the helm sounds like a logistical nightmare, especially considering you'd need to do it again and again every two years.

Also, logistics aside it's just not a solid business plan.
Putting the music on the shoulders of fewer people saves the company a LOT of money. Plus, while an orchestrated sound track would be cool, but would not directly translate into more subs, so I can see how a company would see it as extravagant or wasteful, and FF14 was famously almost ended by its initial extravagance (among other things).

Could FF14 use more live music in game?
Maybe?

Should they have hired a composer?
No, probably not.



Though, I also have a question for you OP.
Did you also have these issues with WoWs music? Or is this somehow worse in FF14?

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Though, I also have a question for you OP.
Did you also have these issues with WoWs music? Or is this somehow worse in FF14?

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thank you for your reply, one of the few that actually makes sense. There's a few keyboard warriors on here with some need to rally to the defence of what they consider a lifestyle choice that playing this (or any, really) MMO entails, and questioning music that is part of the game perhaps gave them the need to be personal. I completely ignore those, one of them with understanding limited by a capacity of his search engine, said something about "resonance of harmony" lol I had to laugh. Harmony resonates just about as much as Maths (the two being in many aspects similar actually). That aside, I'll answer your question:

WoW music, to my taste, is far superior to FF14. Except Ironforge city (and maybe a few BGs), where you can clearly hear the cropped and compressed sound of the synth, every zone has its own ambience done by fully orchestrated score (not to mention the login screen). Don't get me wrong, FF14 music is great, I've heard the aforementioned Eorzean Symphony before even coming to the forums and it was one of the things that made me wanna try FF14 - you can imagine my disappointment and hence the OP - But this music is arranged SO badly that I came to the forums to see what other people think of it. Like, take Rhagdar's Reach for example (may gotten the spelling wrong). The entire 1st half of the theme it has ostinating Tonic in bass (which isn't really bass at all, just midrange tenor-ish), and the second half of it has the exact same melody with very poor attempt at polyphony and counterpoint using imitation of brass instruments. I get it, it's probably to symbolize the Garlean anthem somehow (a beutiful version of which we DO get to hear in one of the final cutscenes after you defeat the crown prince-turned-primal), sounds like taken out of some old church Kancional. But in a game of such magnitude, do you really make due with Tonic - Dominant - Tonic - Subdominant - Dominant cadenza (with ostinanting tonic in bass, that in theory would make everything else Tonic).

Despite the synth, I still do enjoy "some" of the zone tracks, the far eastern capital (doma? cant remember Edit: Kugame) probably ranks highest, although most zones have Idee Fixe (those small structural units that possess thematic identity) incorporated into them, using variety of tempo, tonality and instrument changes.

As you say, yes, I realize the cost attached to such venture employing an ensemble, but as I mentioned earlier, with a revenue in hundreds of millions, I thought it's quite a pity we don't get to enjoy the epic sound like we do when listening to the OST that is sold separately..

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

thank you for your reply, one of the few that actually makes sense. There's a few keyboard warriors on here with some need to rally to the defence of what they consider a lifestyle choice that playing this (or any, really) MMO entails, and questioning music that is part of the game perhaps gave them the need to be personal.

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I mean, if you need a really blunt example for the level of faux pas you have been perpetuating, you basically walked into a van Gogh exhibit and asked why everything looks so fuzzy, when traditional brush strokes would look so much nicer. Or complained about facial proportions at a Picasso exhibit.

Video game music has fundamentally different requirements than your average sit-down-at-a-concert orchestral piece. Learn those and come back with an actual argument.

I'm very late to this thread. The fanbase is a fan of the game to a fault. If anyone is critical of just about anything pertaining to FFXIV, they get really upset and lash out. As you can easily see in this thread. The music absolutely is bland and often sounds exactly as you say. It's nothing really memorable and feels like a very cheap production. It's not the worst but it's definitely not as great as the fans make it out to be. I love this game immensely but I really wish the music was equal to what the story and gameplay. It's just not. To draw from your comparison of WoW, now, I can go in and play a soundtrack from that game and it will hit a real emotional string for me and send me into a true place of nostalgia that this game just does not do. A lot of other games do the same for me, I can listen to the soundtrack and I'm absolutely pulled in. This game could be even more epic if it had a soundtrack to match.

Not sure if this has already been said, but I'm of the opinion that there is more to the music than just the music itself.

One element of FFXIV that makes the music so good (in my opinion at least) is the choice of accompanying lyrics and the setting in which they utilise it.

Lets use 'Close in the Distance' as an example - this was piece of music that hit all the right emotional notes with me. I'm not too proud to admit that that I was in tears during that 'Final Walk' sequence when I played through it the first time, and having watched more reaction videos than I can count I know for a fact that I wasn't the only one.
In fact, that 'Community Sings Close in the Distance (with 1000 singers)' video says more about that particular piece of music than I possibly could:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmsVf97xB00

Dragonsong is another good example and there are, obviously, others.

The setting, the music and the lyrics all combine to create a truly emotional experience. I mean, it's a masterpiece in it's own right anyway but if, for example, you were to listen to in your car without any context (i.e. not having played the game) it probably wouldn't have the same impact.

And that aside, 'Footfalls' is my favourite piece of music. Period. I adore that song, and again - whilst I feel it's a great song in it's own right, one of the reasons I love it so much is the reminder of the excitement and anticipation I felt when I heard it whilst watching the Endwalker cinematic for the first time and how lost in the moment I was when it was playing during the last fight against Zenos.

Soken is very very good, but he's no Uematsu. He relies way too much on Leitmotif. When you realise that a majority of an expansions songs are just a slightly altered version of the Main Expansion theme, it kind of takes the shine off a little. Anybody can slow something down, change the VST instrument and loop it. I'd like to see him be more creative with Zone Night themes specifically in this regard as 90% of them are exactly that. Swap the main instrument for a piano, slow it down by 50%. Sure it works, but it feels like creating music to meet deadline rather than anything showcasing ingenuity, something I am guilty of myself so I know it when I hear it.

I tend to find the songs he creates that include vocals to be a bit corny/cheesy as well. Compare Soken's "Fiend" to Uematsu's "Otherworld" from FFX and you'll see what I mean. One's a badass metal song with screeching guitars, harmonic bends, rough vocals etc. The other sounds like an edgy Anime opening song. But on the whole, he's very good especially in comparison to a lot of other MMO soundtracks. I played WoW for years and I can't recall anything other than ambient noises.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Soken is very very good, but he's no Uematsu. He relies way too much on Leitmotif. When you realise that a majority of an expansions songs are just a slightly altered version of the Main Expansion theme, it kind of takes the shine off a little. Anybody can slow something down, change the VST instrument and loop it. I'd like to see him be more creative with Zone Night themes specifically in this regard as 90% of them are exactly that. Swap the main instrument for a piano, slow it down by 50%. Sure it works, but it feels like creating music to meet deadline rather than anything showcasing ingenuity, something I am guilty of myself so I know it when I hear it.

I tend to find the songs he creates that include vocals to be a bit corny/cheesy as well. Compare Soken's "Fiend" to Uematsu's "Otherworld" from FFX and you'll see what I mean. One's a badass metal song with screeching guitars, harmonic bends, rough vocals etc. The other sounds like an edgy Anime opening song. But on the whole, he's very good especially in comparison to a lot of other MMO soundtracks. I played WoW for years and I can't recall anything other than ambient noises.

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I'd disagree there. The main story songs follow a leitmotif, but there's a large variety of other tunes that don't in each expansion, typically many of the town and zone themes. As for the leitmotif part, I enjoy that. It's a common theme throughout video games, movies, etc., including other FF games with Nobuo Uematsu as the composer (my favorite FF6 springs right to mind). And the references to certain songs such as Maker's Ruin that run throughout the expansions have an awesome effect when they kick in in different ways. Personally, I've always loved Nobuo Uematsu; he's probably my favorite VGM composer of all time. And I have no problem also acknowledging that Masayoshi Soken is brilliant, too, and I'm happy to consider them equals.

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Originally Posted by HuaTuo

Most of the music is as if made from a soundbank of some cheap £60 Yamaha keyboard, the instruments are terribly synthetic, especially Strings and Brass.

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If it sounds that way, there's a problem in the signal chain, because IIRC they use a full orchestra to record the music.
There's videos of them doing that somewhere, I think.

The music sounds very good on my Sennheiser Game Zero headset driven by a Sennheiser USB DAC/amplifier dongle.
It sounds less good on the pair of cheap Logitech speakers I have hooked to my motherboard's Realtek sound chip.
And the soundtrack music sounds great on my home theater system (Yamaha RX-780, Polk speakers in a 5.2.1 config.)
But the in-game music may be compressed more than my ripped copies of the soundtrack CDs I own.

As ever, YMMV. And as you are trained musician, you almost certainly have a better ear for music than I do (as proven by scientific studies).

The only time I actually disliked Soken's reliance on leitmotifs is in Stormblood, where basically every big song is either the same song, or it's Beauty's Wicked Wiles. Stormblood's leitmotif is so pervasive so as to be actually confusing, because it's basically the only one that exists in-universe: it's the Ala Mhigan national anthem, but we first hear it in that context as the Garlean Ala Mhigan anthem, and either way it muddies things; if you read it as the Garlean anthem then it doesn't make sense why it plays in Rhalgr's Reach, and if you read it as the Ala Mhigan anthem it doesn't make sense why it plays... well, everywhere else in Stormblood.

The music's good, though. I'm... genuinely not sure why this thread was ever in the lore subforum, because there's never been an instance where lore REALLY benefits from the music (there's some relevant lyrics, but those are usually supplementary to something stated more directly). Not a discredit to either, they're just two almost entirely unrelated, high-quality parts of the game.

Not sure it helps entirely, but I graduated from the !!highly respected and awesome!! University of Salford (*laff*) with a degree of some nature in Popular Music & Recording. The University is also in Europe (even post-Brexit one cannot deny geography), so I think that has me best placed to confer with the OP, as a peer.

I'm also a classical musician, from the age of five, when I started on a kazoo and the most baroque of instruments, the descant recorder. Get thee behind me, Fool on a Hill! Got a Yamaha keyboard at the age of 7, and parents used to delight in such classics as the theme from "Take the High Road", played entirely by ear on an instrument that didn't allow for more than one note a time. Good times! (Technically, I'm a classically trained flautist, I have a grade 8 certificate somewhere in the back of the wardrobe, and I also come with extra pointless training in piano, keyboard, organ, those damned recorders both descant and treble, a penny whistle (but only in D), and varied percussion (someone mentioned maracas upthread? Yeah, that was me the tutor picked from our group to play those, owing to my glorious Bez impression, because that's what you need to play maracas professionally, this is TRUTH), morphed into something of jazz musician because it's harder than classical so if you want to be proper, you have to jazz). I have also duelled banjos on a guitar and had a bass once, and an autoharp. Got the autoharp from a car boot sale. yay! I'm a terrible musician by the way, so I don't do it anymore and no one should ever hear me sing. But I tell you, I knows me a thing or two. Yes, yes.

So, now we've established my credentials, we'll talk shop.

Music in game's alright. It's got something for everyone. Can't please all the people all the time, and orchestras are expensive and don't come with a moog. I have to think synth tracks compress better or something, they're space savers. I don't know, I didn't record people, I was recorded by people. No one in their right minds would let me near the board with the pushy buttons and funny lights.

I mostly listen to podcasts when I play anyway.

Yes, yes.

I don't know what I'm doing here, I banned myself from the Lore section of the forums.

-fin-

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Originally Posted by Ceridwenae

Not sure it helps entirely, but I graduated from the !!highly respected and awesome!! University of Salford (*laff*) with a degree of some nature in Popular Music & Recording. The University is also in Europe (even post-Brexit one cannot deny geography), so I think that has me best placed to confer with the OP, as a peer.

I'm also a classical musician, from the age of five, when I started on a kazoo and the most baroque of instruments, the descant recorder. Get thee behind me, Fool on a Hill! Got a Yamaha keyboard at the age of 7, and parents used to delight in such classics as the theme from "Take the High Road", played entirely by ear on an instrument that didn't allow for more than one note a time. Good times! (Technically, I'm a classically trained flautist, I have a grade 8 certificate somewhere in the back of the wardrobe, and I also come with extra pointless training in piano, keyboard, organ, those damned recorders both descant and treble, a penny whistle (but only in D), and varied percussion (someone mentioned maracas upthread? Yeah, that was me the tutor picked from our group to play those, owing to my glorious Bez impression, because that's what you need to play maracas professionally, this is TRUTH), morphed into something of jazz musician because it's harder than classical so if you want to be proper, you have to jazz). I have also duelled banjos on a guitar and had a bass once, and an autoharp. Got the autoharp from a car boot sale. yay! I'm a terrible musician by the way, so I don't do it anymore and no one should ever hear me sing. But I tell you, I knows me a thing or two. Yes, yes.

So, now we've established my credentials, we'll talk shop.

Music in game's alright. It's got something for everyone. Can't please all the people all the time, and orchestras are expensive and don't come with a moog. I have to think synth tracks compress better or something, they're space savers. I don't know, I didn't record people, I was recorded by people. No one in their right minds would let me near the board with the pushy buttons and funny lights.

I mostly listen to podcasts when I play anyway.

Yes, yes.

I don't know what I'm doing here, I banned myself from the Lore section of the forums.

-fin-

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looks at sig ok i believe you.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Soken is very very good, but he's no Uematsu. He relies way too much on Leitmotif. When you realise that a majority of an expansions songs are just a slightly altered version of the Main Expansion theme, it kind of takes the shine off a little. Anybody can slow something down, change the VST instrument and loop it. I'd like to see him be more creative with Zone Night themes specifically in this regard as 90% of them are exactly that. Swap the main instrument for a piano, slow it down by 50%. Sure it works, but it feels like creating music to meet deadline rather than anything showcasing ingenuity, something I am guilty of myself so I know it when I hear it.

I tend to find the songs he creates that include vocals to be a bit corny/cheesy as well. Compare Soken's "Fiend" to Uematsu's "Otherworld" from FFX and you'll see what I mean. One's a badass metal song with screeching guitars, harmonic bends, rough vocals etc. The other sounds like an edgy Anime opening song. But on the whole, he's very good especially in comparison to a lot of other MMO soundtracks. I played WoW for years and I can't recall anything other than ambient noises.

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I feel this became particularly bad in Endwalker. We have two cities, both use the same motif IN ITS ENTIRETY just with different instruments, briefly interrupted by a freestyle pause of some sort. Even Stormblood's Ala Mhigan Anthem theme's motif usage had less rigid arrangements, and even Stormblood had unique themes for the cities. Kugane used the Stormblood theme, Rhalgr's Reach used the anthem, hamlets used the saltery theme.
Sadness theme in Stormblood had the anthem's main motif, but almost half the notes are unique to it. Meanwhile Endwalker and ShB's literally just toss the exact expansion motifs, slow down the tempo and make it a sad piano version.

Soken is NOT a bad composer. He made and makes some fantastic game music that you don't hear anywhere else. But when it comes to lower energy, non-combat themes he relies way too much on the leitmotif. Also he literally rehashed the same "trick" from ShB's direction with boss themes. Which is why Endwalker boss theme sounds like a blatant poor attempt at being exactly like ShB's just replacing a motif for another.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Stormblood's leitmotif is so pervasive so as to be actually confusing, because it's basically the only one that exists in-universe: it's the Ala Mhigan national anthem, but we first hear it in that context as the Garlean Ala Mhigan anthem, and either way it muddies things; if you read it as the Garlean anthem then it doesn't make sense why it plays in Rhalgr's Reach, and if you read it as the Ala Mhigan anthem it doesn't make sense why it plays... well, everywhere else in Stormblood.

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Well, it plays in Rhalgr's Reach because of the sing-along and the end of 4.0, where the resistance sings a version with (improvised?) modified lyrics after liberating Ala Mhigo. Taking a sad song and making it better? (Incidentally, "The Star-Spangled Banner" has similar origins, but from a popular tavern song. Historical precedent!)

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Soken is NOT a bad composer. He made and makes some fantastic game music that you don't hear anywhere else. But when it comes to lower energy, non-combat themes he relies way too much on the leitmotif.

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Turning the main theme into a leitmotif and playing it everywhere is kind of one of Uematsu's things, though, and a Final Fantasy staple. "Melodies of Life" and "Distant Worlds" are the ones that hit hardest, for me. (So what if the latter was by Mizuta?) Alternatively, taking an Uematsu composition and making a vocal version. There are several albums worth, even. ("Pray" and "Love Will Grow," off the top of my head. Also, the B-side for "Suteki da ne" used a very famous melody.)


Yes, necro-ing an old argument will resummon the VGM nerd. You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Well, it plays in Rhalgr's Reach because of the sing-along and the end of 4.0, where the resistance sings a version with (improvised?) modified lyrics after liberating Ala Mhigo. Taking a sad song and making it better? (Incidentally, "The Star-Spangled Banner" has similar origins, but from a popular tavern song. Historical precedent!)

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They're the same song. "The Measure of His Reach" is the Ala Mhigan national anthem as it pertains to their faith in Rhalgr and Ala Mhigan cultural values (i.e. perserverance in the face of adversity, resourcefulness to survive in the rugged wilderness). When Ala Mhigo was conquered, the Garleans rewrote the lyrics to sing "The Measure of Our Reach", which instead extols Garlemald. This is a targeted use of cultural erasure meant to break the wills of the Ala Mhigan people while also indoctrinating Ala Mhigan youth by changing the meaning of the song.

Speaking of which, one of the best subtle narrative tools in Stormblood pertains to these two songs. "The Measure of Our Reach" is sung in perfect tune by a Garlean choir to emphasize how regimented it is, as well as Garlemald's diminishing of the individual with its many faceless goons and desire to subjugate all other cultures. By contrast, "The Measure of His Reach", is sung by the Eorzean Alliance. Everyone singing is out of tune because these are all people from disparate walks of life united for a common purpose. Much like fans at a baseball stadium who stand for the national anthem, no one is singing perfectly because they're not all trained singers as part of a scripted performance. This in turn emphasizes the individuality of the Eorzean Alliance's members and makes it more "realistic" in that this is how an exhausted, but triumphant army would sing without proper acoustics or practice.

Zenos is introduced with "The Measure of Our Reach" as the Ala Mhigan Quarter is filled with Garlean soldiers and magitek with Garlean flags in full view. At the end of Stormblood, the Eorzean Alliance celebrates its victory over him and the liberation of Ala Mhigo by singing "The Measure of His Reach" for the first time in 20 years, all while Arenvald raises the Ala Mhigan banner in a recreation of shots like the soldiers raising the flag at Iwo Jima. The story began with this song and it ended with this song, opening and closing the book on this chapter of the story. This is also why so many of Stormblood's MSQ titles are excerpts from "The Measure of His Reach".

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

They're the same song. "The Measure of His Reach" is the Ala Mhigan national anthem as it pertains to their faith in Rhalgr and Ala Mhigan cultural values (i.e. perserverance in the face of adversity, resourcefulness to survive in the rugged wilderness). When Ala Mhigo was conquered, the Garleans rewrote the lyrics to sing "The Measure of Our Reach", which instead extols Garlemald. This is a targeted use of cultural erasure meant to break the wills of the Ala Mhigan people while also indoctrinating Ala Mhigan youth by changing the meaning of the song.

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And all of this squares for the Stormblood theme being Ala Mhigo's anthem... but then why the hell is it playing just as much in the Doman half? If you instead took The Measure of Our Reach as the Garlean anthem (which is technically a misreading, but it takes the entire expansion until someone tells you it is), then it being the whole expansion leitmotif makes sense since it's the common thread linking both halves of the story, but then you're just left asking 'but why is it playing in Rhalgr's Reach'--which again, there is an answer for but it's not given until the end of the expansion.

It's a minor bit of pedantry, I know, but it's the one time that a heavy reliance on leitmotifs actually hurt the story rather than helped it; making it an in-universe diegetic piece of music just rendered it very confusing when they kept using it as the general expansion theme. They've done including a song diegetically well in other places--the raw gut-punch of Home Beyond the Horizon wouldn't work nearly as well without it--but that time was a miss.

This game has a lot of absolute bangers in it, but SE seems to have a habit of remixing said bangers a whole bunch of times into increasingly less pleasing forms. They even managed to beat Answers to death, and it was widely regarded as one of Uematsu's better works.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

This game has a lot of absolute bangers in it, but SE seems to have a habit of remixing said bangers a whole bunch of times into increasingly less pleasing forms. They even managed to beat Answers to death, and it was widely regarded as one of Uematsu's better works.

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I'm honestly fine with them reusing answers during Endwalker.
The only time it was inappropriate was the version used when Zenos died. It felt out of place enough for me to ask myself why they are using it.

I really like the battle version Your answer, and i think it was the perfect song remix for the Hydaelyn battle.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I'm honestly fine with them reusing answers during Endwalker.
The only time it was inappropriate was the version used when Zenos died. It felt out of place enough for me to ask myself why they are using it.

I really like the battle version Your answer, and i think it was the perfect song remix for the Hydaelyn battle.

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Really? I thought 'Answers' was quite appropriate in context, when you consider some of the lyrics -
"Now open your eyes while our plight is repeated
Still deaf to our cries, lost in hope we lie defeated
Our souls have been torn, and our bodies forsaken
Bearing sins of the past, for our future is taken"

Seems kinda appropriate really.

On the whole yes the music is one of the games biggest strengths. much of it is very thematic and fitting.

if i had one gripe it'd probably be they could normalise the volume a lot more.. you can be in limsa and the bgm can be at a decent volume. but then you can teleport to iddlyshire or even worse the gold saucer and KABOOOOOM your speakers explode. (exageration)

For my sophisticated and erudite take on this:

I like all the leitmotifs. They are cool.

That is all.

My only hot take on the music is how it is APPLIED in some areas. I enjoy a lot of the music in this game, and as a fan of the main series I was not disappointed at all, but some of the songs in a majority of the trials and even some normal raids just feel..."off". Like they sound like songs that don't belong in that kind of atmosphere, like Fiend, Scream, and Close in the Distance, for example. I remember Ravana's song sounding extremely weird too.

I'll take the benefit of the doubt if the lyrics from songs like those actually say something about the lore of the fights but I'd have to google them outside of combat and I am just too lazy to care about it.

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Originally Posted by Reclusegamer

My only hot take on the music is how it is APPLIED in some areas. I enjoy a lot of the music in this game, and as a fan of the main series I was not disappointed at all, but some of the songs in a majority of the trials and even some normal raids just feel..."off". Like they sound like songs that don't belong in that kind of atmosphere, like Fiend, Scream, and Close in the Distance, for example. I remember Ravana's song sounding extremely weird too.

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You've jostled some trivia knowledge out of my brain: Ravana's current theme was actually the second idea for Ravana's theme; the first one was moved off of Ravana and became Locus. We don't really know how much of what we know as Locus came into being after Ravana aside from... well, obviously the lyrics changed.

But ass for all those, I might be able to help you trace why exactly they fit the story of the parts of the game they're in. I don't really know what exactly your sticking point is for each of them, but it might resolve things for you.

Fiend: Sephirot was specifically envisioned and summoned in rage by his summoners; there wasn't really a 'Sephirot' before the tree-people that summoned him were forced to come up with something to defend against the Meracydians. That's likely why his song's so punchy and angry: he's always angry. The lyrics are mostly an ass-kicking anthem combined with scorn at a female-identified goddess of some kind; common theory is Hydaelyn, but I personally like the idea that it might be Sophia and we're getting a glimpse into a conflict that was over long before we turned up.
Scream: Fair warning that with Pandaemonium's story unfinished and the lyrics so far unpublished we don't have a full grasp on it. Musically it borrows a lot of progressions from Hic Svnt Leones to give nod to the fact it's different angles on the same organization/events, though, it borrows a lot of female-vocals 'goth/emo metal' stylings to better suit the bosses it plays for. It also shares a lot of Leones' lyrical elements of 'might be about vampires, or about wild animals eating prey'; it's definitely painting Pandaemonium as a godless, cruel and terrifying place. It's also vaguely plausible its lyrics might be more from Athena's perspective, but again, incomplete story.
Close in the Distance: The song's basically saying 'we've gone a lot of places, things look dark, but there will be a tomorrow we'll live to see'. I think it's very deliberate that so much of the lyrics can apply to the WoL, to Meteion, and potentially even to the dragons and Omicrons. It's very serene and peaceful, no real anger to it; I think that combined with the lyrics referring to a 'you' without any clear distinction is where people get that 'Christian rock' flavor. It definitely suits the part of the game where it starts playing... perhaps not so much the fact it keeps playing in Ultima Thule afterwards.
The Hand that Gives the Rose/Unbending Steel (Ravana's themes): So we've got a combo of a waltz and something plausibly close to Mongolian throat-singing here (it's not at all, but I can see where people get it). The lyrics are very much an ass-kicking theme, but there's some extra in that in the Extreme, the lyrics actually sync up to moves that share their name; mostly just a bonus, but it really underlines that Ravana is practiced, that he's leading a dance, and that he really wants to kill us.

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Originally Posted by Reclusegamer

My only hot take on the music is how it is APPLIED in some areas. I enjoy a lot of the music in this game, and as a fan of the main series I was not disappointed at all, but some of the songs in a majority of the trials and even some normal raids just feel..."off". Like they sound like songs that don't belong in that kind of atmosphere, like Fiend, Scream, and Close in the Distance, for example. I remember Ravana's song sounding extremely weird too.

I'll take the benefit of the doubt if the lyrics from songs like those actually say something about the lore of the fights but I'd have to google them outside of combat and I am just too lazy to care about it.

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In terms of 'Close in the Distance' I'd have to firstly say that your comment - "but some of the songs in a majority of the trials and even some normal raids just feel..."off" doesn't apply to 'Close in the Distance' as it wasn't used in that context. It plays in the background at Ultima Thule and during the 'Final Walk' but I don't recall it being used during any form of combat.

And the song in itself is usually interpreted as being about overcoming, and having reasons to look beyond, the very thing that we were fighting against in Ultima Thule - Despair.

Love the music. But I have grown to detest that one '' wartable / negotiating / planning / let's get this shit on the road '' song that has been playing constantly since ARR I think. Give it a rest already, it's horrible.

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Originally Posted by Tehmon

Love the music. But I have grown to detest that one '' wartable / negotiating / planning / let's get this shit on the road '' song that has been playing constantly since ARR I think. Give it a rest already, it's horrible.

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I agree, there's a lot of ARR songs that could/should be phased out.
Some of the casual theme, or recurring tense situation ones really aren't that good.
Or at least not good enough to have to listen to them for 10 more years.

I wish there was a way to turn off venture accomplished music jingle without having to turn off bgm

I like the game's music. I don't think Stormblood is using Measure of his reach as the leitmotif for every area. At least not the one you're supposed to be thinking of lyrically. More that you're supposed to be thinking about the lyrics and themes of Revolution instead. Which fits the non Ala Mhigan sections just as fine.

Okay, everywhere this debate comes up I think people keep missing an important factor which I am genuinely curious about.

If you look through even this very thread, almost every single bit of praise the Soken fans are heaping on him comes from Shadowbringers and Endwalker. I've been slowly making my way through the main story quests and I just beat base-Stormblood last week.

What I would really love to know from all the Soken fans is this: were you a mega-fan *before* Shadowbringers, or only *after* Shadowbringers?

Because I can't judge any of the music from the last two expansions since I haven't played them yet, but if you asked me right now what I think about Soken, I'd say he's an uninspiring and amateurish ear-sore who occasionally strikes gold.

Before you jump down my throat though, just hear me out: I think the trials music is really great. I've looked up a few of the names of songs people keep throwing out and they seem to all be from one-time encounters in the MSQ or raid boss or trial boss themes. You know what songs I NEVER see getting brought up though? The Yanxia map theme. I hate that f***ing song with every bone in my body. It's got the vibe of the dorky kazoo-version tavern theme from WoW Mists of Pandaria, but it's the theme music for an entire majestic valley with an inlet and a giant Japanese castle. To call it a mismatch in tone would be an understatement. Yet this f***ing song not only has the gall to merely exist in the first place, no, it had to interrupt the otherwise great credit sequence of Stormblood which I had to immediately end the cutscene for lest I go deaf. I've heard maybe two or three hours of that song total, and I've only heard the Shiva trial theme for maybe 15 minutes max. It doesn't matter how good that song is when for most of the game I have to listen to either unmemorable songs or downright trashfire filth. For every sky islands from Heavensward there just has to be a Gridania, and this push and pull between "yes, I get to go back to this place!" and "oh god, not this place!" was really really draining. I have NEVER had that experience in another videogame before, and I exclusively listen to game soundtracks.

99% of game soundtracks I listen to consist of: An occasional 1-star, usually some discordant, suspensful cutscene track that just isn't pleasant to listen to out of context, maybe a 2-star, tons of 3-stars that are pleasant to listen to in context but didn't necessarily wow me, maybe a dozen 4-stars that are genuinely amazing songs that go right to the playlist, and then maybe three or four 5-stars that just knock my socks off and become instant favorites that I would have listened to even if I'd never played the game they come from. FFXIV's soundtrack so far would be: a few dozen 1-stars, several dozen 2-stars, a couple 3-stars, half a dozen 4-stars, and zero 5-stars.

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So here's my question for all the super-fans: do you actually LIKE the music that you end up hearing for 99% of the game (overworld themes and that one cutscene they used for every planning/suspicious conversation scene)? Or did you just forget that they exist and are rating Soken purely based on the songs that you actually DO like?

Because if you DO actually like most of the music in the game, then we really are just going to have to agree to disagree, but if you DON'T and are just ignoring them, then I think that's a genuine problem. Masashi Hamauzu isn't my favorite composer of all time because he's made a ton of songs that I really really love among a sea of otherwise forgettable or downright annoying garbage. He's my favorite composer of all time because almost EVERYTHING he does is at least an instant 4-star to me.

This whole business with Soken just makes me feel like I'm constantly getting gaslit because every FFXIV fan talks about him having achieved god-like composer status, and I'm over here scratching my head wondering if I even played the same game.

I'll be okay if it turns out that yes, some people really just enjoy what I consider to be triple-decker a**-soaked diaper trash, but I just need to know if that's actually what's going on. It genuinely upsets me because I really wanted to love FFXIV's music because of how much praise its received, but it just doesn't seem to be happening for me and I don't know if it's just because it's not my style or because I just haven't gotten to the good stuff yet or if everyone is just having collective memory loss and ignoring most of the music that you actually hear in the game.