Can we take action against Bard Macro Player yet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

It's not about "elitism". I stand by the fact that it's rather soul crushing and not that all fun wanting to learn how to use the system if there is a way to "cheat" it by automation.

---

Hi OP! Fellow musician here who understands where you're coming from, even if I don't necessarily agree. It can be disappointing when you know that you're playing a song, and then someone just randomly blows past you, eating up all the "accolades" for not having the actual talent (whether they want it and cannot get it is neither here nor there). I understand both sides of the concern, really -- the artist who sees those with less or no talent using a program to play for them vs. the person who cannot play and sees his character as an extension of the talents he wish he could have. One sees it as unfair, the other sees it as harmless.

Unfortunately, if it can be automated, it will be and that causes many people (who don't care as much as you do), to take the easy way out. Just look at any other competitive system in the game. Remember the Firmament crafting and gathering challenges? Some people stayed up for hours barely eating or drinking or sleeping, others used bots to gather inhuman amounts of stuff. The ones who automate will never care that you authentically put in hours of practice / hours of crafting / whatever. To them, the ends justify the means.

To you I'd say, learn the system if you want to, for your own personal enjoyment. Play your heart out if you want to. Those who stop to listen will hear the difference and although not everyone will appreciate your skill, those that understand, will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

I get it, some people aren't musically talented enough, some just want to play songs, and I feel that is fine if you are just playing for your friends and such.

But what bothers me is when you pretend you ARE playing songs and acting as if you are so great because you let a third party tool play it for you.

It's really annoying walking into towns and just hearing it sound like people just throw midi keyboards down a flight of stairs.

There are people, such as myself, who actually practice playing these songs, and we get immediately overshadowed by people who just press play on a program. There is no competition, we lose because it's impossible for us to play songs at a normal place without either conforming to third party software ourselves, or hooking up an actual midi keyboard (which I would be more okay with!).

I think the bard macro playing has gotten way out of hand. It's really annoying and off putting.


Playing songs is one of my favorite things to do in FFXIV, I practice for hours every single day, and now I have to turn off performance completely because it just isn't fun anymore trying to play music for people, but getting immediately decimated by someone who can press play, make a sandwich and come back without putting any effort into learning any song what so ever.

---

Fantastic. Guess what? Your average passerby isn't going to care about this. They're going to pass by, hear a familiar tune, /cheer, /dance /clap and go on about their day. Play your music and mind your business. The last thing we want is for SE to actually start policing this and/or scrapping this altogether.

It's amusing seeing this being hashed out in XIV now. GW2 has a pretty similar music system to XIV, and there have been plenty of threads with the same complaints. "It takes away from those who play manually" is also one of the main complaints they have. I really don't see how this is the case. You should be able to take pride and enjoyment in your skill regardless if Joe Shmoe over on the other end of Limsa putting out tunes with his program. The only thing they're possibly doing is stealing away potential viewers for your own performance.

Anet (GW2 dev) has come out and clearly stated that they are OK with the macro/third party use for music playing. Would be nice if SE would come out with a similiar statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

This isn't about jealousy, it's about stating the issue that it seems very unfair for someone to practice for hours to actually learn how to play, then for someone to come up to you and just play the same song, or another 1000 times better than you ever could because of a third party software.

It's not about "elitism". I stand by the fact that it's rather soul crushing and not that all fun wanting to learn how to use the system if there is a way to "cheat" it by automation.

---

Just my personal opinion, but I never understood this way of thinking and believe that everyone would live a happier life in general if they stopped looking so much at what others have/do and appericiate the things they have/can do instead.
Do things that give you joy by doing them (special in a game), not things that only give you joy because you get attention or to impress other people.

Play music and learn the songs because thats something you want to do - make the way your goal. Then it wont bother you if other people reach the same outcome. The feeling of accomplishment shouldnt be something that someone can take away from you, so dont let them take it away. Stop looking at others, focus on yourself, see how much you improved, how much better your performance has gotten...

...sorry, I started to ramble a bit here, dishing out general life-advice that might not even be welcome. Bottomline: Dont let things that other people hurt what you enjoy - but not by "attacking" them or trying to take away things from them and rather by focussing on the fun you have during the (learning) process. No one can take that away from you - assuming its even fun to you... and if it isnt... do something that is?

10 out of 10 would read again.

Well played OP. That I just echo what others have said try not to put so much value of your actions around praise of others.

I will say this maybe invest in a midi if it means that much to you to sound more professional.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stormfur

Hi OP! Fellow musician here who understands where you're coming from, even if I don't necessarily agree. It can be disappointing when you know that you're playing a song, and then someone just randomly blows past you, eating up all the "accolades" for not having the actual talent (whether they want it and cannot get it is neither here nor there). I understand both sides of the concern, really -- the artist who sees those with less or no talent using a program to play for them vs. the person who cannot play and sees his character as an extension of the talents he wish he could have. One sees it as unfair, the other sees it as harmless.

Unfortunately, if it can be automated, it will be and that causes many people (who don't care as much as you do), to take the easy way out. Just look at any other competitive system in the game. Remember the Firmament crafting and gathering challenges? Some people stayed up for hours barely eating or drinking or sleeping, others used bots to gather inhuman amounts of stuff. The ones who automate will never care that you authentically put in hours of practice / hours of crafting / whatever. To them, the ends justify the means.

To you I'd say, learn the system if you want to, for your own personal enjoyment. Play your heart out if you want to. Those who stop to listen will hear the difference and although not everyone will appreciate your skill, those that understand, will.

---

Thanks for the feedback. Appreciate it. I know there are others out there too. When I made this thread, there are others in-game who agreed and couldn't stand it, we spent the next few hours listening to each other play songs and trying to learn new ones and became friends.

I'm still going to practice, nothing is going to stop that. It's one of my main enjoyments in FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Olivia:

People like me who have no musical gifts whatsoever, and may use a program like that to give my avatar in a fantasy game an ability I will never know in my entire life. One I have dreamt of having almost.forever.

but my greatest wish, my fondest dream, was to be on stage with a musical instrument and let the music speak for my heart and soul. You could put the best midi keyboard in front of me and Id never know how to make that music.

That, I cannot and will never know.

If, by some small means, others can attain, that small dream inside a video game, then I see no harm in it.

---

I'm classically trained in piano and have practiced thousands of hours, yet Vel's post is, to my mind, more genuinely authentic and a testament about what true love of music is than the OP's idea of it.

Music exists to transcend words and languages, since it is understood and loved by humanity as a whole. I can write a piece in a minor chord, using diminished thirds and all just to make it uber sad, and someone/anyone will understand the feeling I'm trying to convey, no matter where in the world they are and what language they speak. Just because Olga Scheps can play Ballade 1 better than I ever could doesn't mean I don't want people exposed to Chopin or to hear his music. In fact, I'd welcome someone who could play this music better than I could to play it for more and more people so that they can, perhaps, grow to love it as much as I do. This wouldn't diminish me or my own talent in the least, but rather uplift the actual music itself.

Unless you compose (as I sometimes do), we are all (musicians and non-musicians alike) just copying the work of another, although perhaps with our own lil interpretations at times. Let us just all love music in whatever form and from whatever source it comes from for what it is - a way to communicate the feelings humanity shares without words ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

I've seen it all now. Bard Performance Elitists.

---

A tale as old as the human race itself. I'm guessing our earliest ancestors would fist fight over who could grunt and drum on a hollow log better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Music exists to transcend words and languages, since it is understood and loved by humanity as a whole.

---

As Stephen Spielberg has often said, his major hit films were successful because of their scores.


I have favourite films and often re-watch them because the music accompanying the film makes it very special for me. Films such as Interstella , Inception , Shawshank Redemption and Jaws with many more I could list off.

Heck I even like box office/film critics "flops" because I enjoy the score eg: Oblivion starring Tom Cruise



There has been some wonderful shorts Ive loved as they were featured in a youtube channel or a tv show such as Netflix's AFterlife by Ricky Gervais

Dave Thomas Junior - Silence

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bmz...ist=LL&index=9


or a lovelly piece that was used in aViva La Dirt League - Epic NPC man video

Uninvited · Alfie-Jay Winters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7mk99no24I

Music is the language of the human soul without borders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

At that point, you are not the performer, but a MP3 player at that point. Would you go to a concert in real life and be okay with a singer not really singing a song? Or if an orchestra wasn't really playing their instruments but letting some software play it for them while pretending they are? Probably not. I know it's a bit different via FFXIV, but that, for me, means a lot.

---

That's basically what DJing is, and yes tons of people go to watch a guy in a helmet press play on an mp3.

Olivia take pride in that you can do it by yourself and rest of us can't. That alone is a big accomplishment and should make you feel proud of yourself and not jealous of us. It really should be the other way around lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

But what bothers me is when you pretend you ARE playing songs and acting as if you are so great because you let a third party tool play it for you.

---

I have legitimately NEVER heard anyone bragging about their playing with or without third party software.

Ultimately who determines who is "pretending"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

You cannot possibly get better at learning to play music, if you do not even attempt to try to learn any bit of it. There is much more pride and feeling if a person has worked very hard for their goals and to bring that musical joy to others, than to just sit there and press play and walk away..

---

Pride is personal. What you're seeking is acknowledgement and validation. Those are different.

Just want to point out that you can also play music through FFXIV with an actual keyboard so it might not all be recordings. It's a little wonky though, can't play chords or very quickly. Would like to see that system improved someday.

this has to be a very VERY slow day then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

There are people, such as myself, who actually practice playing these songs, and we get immediately overshadowed by people who just press play on a program. There is no competition, we lose because it's impossible for us to play songs at a normal place without either conforming to third party software ourselves, or hooking up an actual midi keyboard (which I would be more okay with!).

I think the bard macro playing has gotten way out of hand. It's really annoying and off putting.

---

Never thought that bard performance was a competition.
What do you lose tho? Besides pride.

This is why there needs to be a hard line stance on third party addons. Either they are allowed, or they are not. Whether it's this, or ACT, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velnora

This is why there needs to be a hard line stance on third party addons. Either they are allowed, or they are not. Whether it's this, or ACT, etc.

---

How would they be policed then? Would need some kind of sniffing software that looks through your pc for those programs or files. You want that? I sure don’t.

It's a game...

There isn't any real way to actually ban them because FF14 doesn't have malware etched into it to see your running programs like other MMOs do. It would be based on manual reporting and people that were actually playing might get banned for being too good, although it is painfully obvious to tell when a program is being used.

Really the only solution would be community driven. The other day I saw a bunch of people hyped up about someone playing a Dragonforce midi saying "Omg they're so good", and me and a few others explained it they were using a program, but there are people that are actually good. If someone's using a macro I just walk away but will stay and listen if they aren't.

do you have this same attitude outside of the game? the elitism is boring. let people have their harmless fun in a game we all pay to enjoy in various ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xhanth

There isn't any real way to actually ban them because FF14 doesn't have malware etched into it to see your running programs like other MMOs do. It would be based on manual reporting and people that were actually playing might get banned for being too good, although it is painfully obvious to tell when a program is being used.

Really the only solution would be community driven. The other day I saw a bunch of people hyped up about someone playing a Dragonforce midi saying "Omg they're so good", and me and a few others explained it they were using a program, but there are people that are actually good. If someone's using a macro I just walk away but will stay and listen if they aren't.

---

It might be painfully obvious at times but I have a friend who was playing music people accused them of using a program so let a mans use my twitch and we streamed them playing and gave those that were saying otherwise the link. I told them not to let it bother them but unfortunately many put tye validation of others as an important benchmark for success or even happiness.

With that as you mentioned people generally do not understand what they are asking for trying to enforce such a standard would lead to many false positives and people getting strikes for no reason.

Though even have a community driven effort has potential to back fire and may even lead to some getting harassed. In the end as other said people should just let people be not like we have a competitive boarding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AngelCheese77

How would they be policed then? Would need some kind of sniffing software that looks through your pc for those programs or files. You want that? I sure don’t.

---

The same way ACT is policed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velnora

The same way ACT is policed.

---

How would that work for bard performance?

There’s a side you’re forgetting to BMP. Some people make their own MIDIs to preform, or at least edit them so it wouldn’t sound like musical diarrhea. I’ve seen bards who wrote their own music, or transcribed music to MIDI just to preform them in game. Many others, as well as my self, see no issue with BMP. At the end of the day if it makes others happy, who really cares?

This is latest-stage capitalism.

People don't want anything that automates to go away because 99% of the time it never affects them.

Ignoring that this gateways into more devious options, some of which already exist (Some people who use those midi's open a patreon for their performances. It's rare, but it's there, pay me to press a button to play copyrighted music in ul'dah lol)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trobon

Can we also ban sites where people post glams because it takes away from those creative enough to come up with their own glams. Can we please ban hunt discords because it takes away from people who like to go out and hunt things on their own skill. In fact can we just ban party finder and duty finder as some of us are naturally better at putting together groups and leading them. We don’t want people to have too much fun after all.

---

See what I mean? You wanna ban a botting program so that must mean we should get rid of things that aren't botting programs too lol

Can we also ban sites where people post glams because it takes away from those creative enough to come up with their own glams. Can we please ban hunt discords because it takes away from people who like to go out and hunt things on their own skill. In fact can we just ban party finder and duty finder as some of us are naturally better at putting together groups and leading them. We don’t want people to have too much fun after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velnora

The same way ACT is policed.

---

The only way you can get in trouble for ACT is if you tell people you are using it and you get reported. If people use ACT and don't say anything no one knows. SE doesn't sniff around on people's computers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arillyn

The only way you can get in trouble for ACT is if you tell people you are using it and you get reported. If people use ACT and don't say anything no one knows. SE doesn't sniff around on people's computers.

---

I thought it was if you used it to harass people? At least, according to some people on here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velnora

I thought it was if you used it to harass people? At least, according to some people on here.

---

If you get reported.

My point is, there is no way for SE to police third-party tools unless someone is reported and it can be proven by the person using it actively stating in game they are using it (or in the rare instance when there has been a stream with the harasser doing it on the stream). Someone just saying "I think so and so is using a third party tool" isn't enough. And SE doesn't sniff their player's computers to find those third party tools.

OP - while I get what you are saying and I do appreciate people who are actively playing and not using a midi, I also can appreciate the midi music. Honestly the ones that bother me are people who can't play one note to save their lives doing it around in the towns. I wish they would go practice in the inn room until they are ready, maybe not for prime time, but at least for a matinee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlyCat

do you have this same attitude outside of the game? the elitism is boring. let people have their harmless fun in a game we all pay to enjoy in various ways.

---

I mean if you wanted to show some serious skill then play original songs on the whatever instrument then tell people in shout chat to come listen. Why people are not doing this by now is amazing to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

I've seen it all now. Bard Performance Elitists.

---

I was ready to throw my hand in the air like "yup, i got caught" about my super lazy BRD combat macros.

If it's so obvious to people, what's the problem?

It's like the difference between a live performance by a band and the studio recording of the song.

Both can be enjoyed.

I know I would give more props to someone actively playing the song vs someone playing a song via a macro, unless I knew the person made the macro themselves.

So I Jocasta night I witnessed a bard laying down epic tracks. The player had a huge gathering and we all thought he had a macro until he messed up a little and started over. The player must have had 20-30 people just watching/ listening.

Honestly they where so good… love this game for stuff like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivia0x25

But what bothers me is when you pretend you ARE playing songs and acting as if you are so great because you let a third party tool play it for you.

---

Well it's not like people can be honest about it because people like yourself would have fuel to get them suspended or banned for admitting they're using BMP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Puremallace

I mean if you wanted to show some serious skill then play original songs on the whatever instrument then tell people in shout chat to come listen. Why people are not doing this by now is amazing to me.

---

Because generally speaking actual music skill does not translate to FFXIV’s music system without specialized equipment that converts an actual musical instrument input into keystrokes. Which is itself a third party tool.

There will be some who actually put the time and effort into learning how to play the computer keyboard as an instrument, but those people are pretty rare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velnora

The same way ACT is policed.

---

ACT isn't policed though. Don't say you use it and no one knows. So I'm not sure what you are getting at.

But it's not a competition. When was performance mode ever meant to be a competitive thing ?
If you're that hard set on impressing people in game, try doing Feast or hard content. If you want to impress people with music, go to the streets irl and start performing. Or make a media channel.

We play games for fun. If performance mode is fun for you then jam on. Impressing people and garnering attention shouldn't be the motivating factor or goal, just a happy coincidence that might happen on the way. So people macro playing songs should really not bother you in this way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Omedon

In other news: Samurai gameplay is impacted by whether or not real samurai are behind the keyboard.

I can only imagine how this conversation would go in the black mage community.

---

Everyone knows you can only get gold if you spill fresh goat's blood over your keyboard.

I'm very ambivalent about this, and not sure how to feel.

I think people who play for real deserve the recognition and admiration. They practiced a skill, and they're working hard to produce something for people to enjoy. Personally, I would much rather spend my in-game time listening to someone who is performing for real. It's a much more fun experience when you know somebody is playing for real, like you're at a live concert. It's a real-time event, and it makes the game so much more dynamic and exciting.

At the same time, I don't see anything wrong with people who want to use a third-party tool to auto-play music either. Not everybody has that kind of skill, but it's such a fun feature of the Bard that it seems a shame to restrict it so harshly. This is a video game after all, and what you can do in the game should not be contingent on what you can do in real life. I agree that people ought to be honest about whether they are actually playing or using tool automation, but unfortunately Square Enix's official policy disallowing such external software doesn't allow people to be honest. Anyone who openly says they are doing it risks a ban. I actually am happy they don't allow third-party add-ons in this game for the most part, but in this particular case I wish they'd make an exception. As for myself, someone with no musical skill but would like to experiment with this feature, I haven't dared touch it and that really sucks. I wouldn't ever in my life even think of lying about whether I'm playing it for real or not, but it might be really fun to play some obscure pre-made songs and just bring a smile to people's faces.

I wish there were a way to keep people honest, but there just isn't. I've seen some of the adverts for nightclubs in the game, and they talk about "live music" versus a "DJ." I think that's a great way to differentiate between the two, and both of those things have value. Can't say I've been to such things yet, or if they're telling the truth or not, but it seems like a good approach until something better comes along.

Maybe if Square Enix themselves came out with an official MIDI conversion program tied to the game, and it would display a little icon next to your character name, if you were using it, that would be an ideal solution. But I can't see that ever happening.