Please implement something to teach players how to play

The job quests should probably actually teach you the job you're playing. Walk you through your abilities and require their use for quest completion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

The game already dictates you how you should play it. It's in the skill descriptions. What OP is saying is that a lot of people do not read these descriptions and continue using Fire 1 and Cure 1 in level 80 dungeons.

---

I agree to an extent but when I hear stuff like pull more than one group of mobs then I'm like I never read that particular tooltip. You queued for something and therefore agree to be paired with random people who could potentially be bad. If it bothers you make a PF. This forum is way too much of an echo chamber for my taste.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Again, incorporate or encourage this process of learning into the solo duties through the creative use of mechanics or systems that help to encourage the process of learning.

---

That is of course where it should come into play first, but if those mechanics don't come into the content unlocked down the road from those solo duties, you naturally divorce that learning from the apparent intent of the game.

Quote:

---

My issue with the suggested list is it wasn't rewarding players for good play, you were effectively punishing them within the duty itself for not performing up to a baseline.

---

Again, I share many of your concerns with Lezard's list. I just don't believe the general ideas the list seems to follow are going in a fundamentally wrong direction, so long as the implementations (the individual fight designs or its mechanics) are well situated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drakonic

That's literally because of the influx and good players unsubbing temporarily.

---

Then the game needs to do more to keep the good players around. Give players that clear current Raid tier or Ultimate 3 months of free gameplay. Or give them access to a special ward in housing areas where all houses are mansions but cheaper to get so long as you have the corresponding title to buy them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SniperCT

2) That's just an enrage mechanic

---

A pseudo-enrage mechanic. It would kill the player that failed the DPS check, not the entire party. Once the player gets tired of constantly dieing he will be motivated to learn how to play his class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I agree to an extent but when I hear stuff like pull more than one group of mobs then I'm like I never read that particular tooltip.

---

It's under Prohibited Actions of the ToS-> Obstruction of Play. You are preventing people from progressing with the game by purposefully pulling single group of mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Again, incorporate or encourage this process of learning into the solo duties through the creative use of mechanics or systems that help to encourage the process of learning. It should be something that has no bearing on other people, especially if it is something that seemingly does potentially punish other players.

If we want to look into a direction that involves encouraging learning, whilst still incorporating them into the dungeon then a bonus exp/tome checkpoints could be included to help encourage this. E.g. you hit the goal of doing x, y, or z then you get a checkmark that provides bonus exp or tomestones. This could be anything from the execution of an ability a certain amount of time, or a limitation therein. Then you have the point of expanding that effort from a personal perspective without necessarily involving mechanics that seemingly punish players for bad play, but rather rewarding people for good play.

My issue with the suggested list is it wasn't rewarding players for good play, you were effectively punishing them within the duty itself for not performing up to a baseline.

I'm all for a new context that encourages different behavior, but forcing this process, or punishing for not meeting this behavior baseline won't sit well with players. EXP multipliers to individual bosses for correct, proper, or efficient execution of mechanics, be it fight or job mechanics would be a great way to start.

I don't want to have to worry about that healer or tank potentially killing themselves or the tank, just because someone decided that adding a stacking mechanic to GCD heals was a great way to try and force players into something. Especially when more often than not more damage on the bosses will translate to faster kills, which means the boss does fewer mechanics and overall a smaller window for mistakes. So this rides as much on the DPS playing their job correctly in addition to the tank, yet someone wanted to propose the bizarre idea for potentially punishing the healer for trying to compensate?

---

Oh, I fully love this idea of bonuses! Incentives are way better than punishing players, though I think there'll still be some potential for elitism and toxicity. But I think the benefits outweight the costs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

It's under Prohibited Actions of the ToS-> Obstruction of Play. You are preventing people from progressing with the game by purposefully pulling single group of mobs.

---

That is the funniest thing I've seen all day. The dungeon not going as fast as you might prefer is not preventing you from progressing. If the tank is pulling mobs, and the group is killing them and moving through the dungeon then...you're progressing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SniperCT

Oh, I fully love this idea of bonuses! Incentives are way better than punishing players

---

They're literally just a matter of "glass half empty/full". If there's a bonus that you were unable to get but expected to be able to receive, you were "punished". If you didn't get punished when such was your expectations, you were "rewarded".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That is the funniest thing I've seen all day. The dungeon not going as fast as you might prefer is not preventing you from progressing. If the tank is pulling mobs, and the group is killing them and moving through the dungeon then...you're progressing.

---

I'm really not sure how they connected those dots. Also not sure how I missed that in their post. Wow is all I have to say. Just because a group is slow doesn't mean they are breaking the ToS. lol That's some major grasping at straws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

Then the game needs to do more to keep the good players around. Give players that clear current Raid tier or Ultimate 3 months of free gameplay. Or give them access to a special ward in housing areas where all houses are mansions but cheaper to get so long as you have the corresponding title to buy them.



A pseudo-enrage mechanic. It would kill the player that failed the DPS check, not the entire party. Once the player gets tired of constantly dieing he will be motivated to learn how to play his class.



It's under Prohibited Actions of the ToS-> Obstruction of Play. You are preventing people from progressing with the game by purposefully pulling single group of mobs.

---

Not really, big pulls are for experieced players. The new players preffer feel how it works slowly. Specially for new healers, to know better how spells work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They're literally just a matter of "glass half empty/full". If there's a bonus that you were unable to get but expected to be able to receive, you were "punished". If you didn't get punished when such was your expectations, you were "rewarded".

---

Plenty of MMOs have done like...optional bonus objectives, speed bonuses, etc. Or like optional bonus bosses that may have some extra mechanic or something. I think the benefits are good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fellgon

Not really, big pulls are for experieced players. The new players preffer feel how it works slowly. Specially for new healers, to know better how spells work.

---

I still don't like them much. I can do them easy enough at this point, but they're stressful and not fun, especially at lower and mid levels where big pulls tend to wipe parties in dungeons where the packs hit like trucks (and/or are weirdly spaced) and it's hard for healers to keep up when on the run. The later game shifted towards easier big pulls and those are fine, but still annoying to me lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SniperCT

optional bonus objectives

---

See ARR dungeon pathing controversy.

Quote:

---

speed bonuses

---

See the prior pages in this very thread.

Quote:

---

Or like optional bonus bosses that may have some extra mechanic or something.

---

See dungeon pathing controversy in general. Perhaps if roulette rewards were removed, thus taking away the incentive to almost always skip these optional bosses, this could work, but this kind of thing has long been tried and, at least among other daily/weekly/once-per-run bonus systems, has almost never been a success.

For better or worse, there is no motivation to improve if they can clear the content they want to clear. For players not engaging in hard content and/or just doing the base game don’t need that much skill, and SE has no interest in raising this bar for the base game as they might lose players.

Remember, they made an entire TV drama about a guy who played with his dad…and while the dad did eventually clear binding coil, he was by no means a “great” player. That is this games target audience.

All that said, I wouldnt mind some kind of arena where you could just 1v1 common mobs like chimera or cyclops to just practice mechanics. Rather than deal actual damage they just report after 1 minute how much damage you took vs dealt, or how many mechanics you flubbed. In my case I play every job (many super sub par), and would be nice to have a place to warm up/remember mechanics without relying on things like fates. Something like Blu’s carnival would be perfect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fellgon

Not really, big pulls are for experienced players.

---

Since the relative nerfs to healer and tank single-target damage (removal of CS, Sword Oath, etc.), literally every dungeon I did while leveling my alt, if at least one DPS had an AoE, the tank full-pulled. All but one was a Sprout, as were most of those I was running with. Yes, that goes as low as Tam-tara.

You mean do such things as have the Play Guide people can read? Implement Bardam's Mettle which really gets you to learn mechanics? Create this thing called Novice Network and let players become Mentors?

And dude, if you get yelled at for trying to help people learn, then you probably need to look at yourself a bit. Usually people only scream at you if you're a prick in the way you say it. But if you're kind and offer advice, people usually are silent or will thank you for it. Now, that said, let me hit some of your usual suspects:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, can't even keep up with healing = If can't keep up with healing, then is question of whether they just aren't statted right or if perhaps tank and DPS are trash and they really are stuck with it. Usually I dps the hell out of stuff when I can but been a number of dungeons where people just can't survive more than 5-10 seconds without needing heals. So I sit there spam healing the morons because otherwise we'd wipe. Tanks and the rest of the group need to learn their balance, just because you CAN wall to wall pull doesn't always mean it's the best option.

- DPS who single target mobs when you have like the entire dungeon on you. = I'm kind of curious about this one. I mean, I know there are times a particular mob takes priority in killing, such as to avoid mass damage. Or thinking back to where I am leveling my rogue/ninja, if you saw me at like 35 you'd see me single target only because it doesn't have aoe yet. But I've yet to see a single person higher level who just mashes single target damage on mobs when there's a whole pack. So I'd really like to hear what you're seeing do it and how often...or if you just had ONE person act up and now you're tossing it out here like it's a common problem.

- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time = Ever stop to ask if they are new to tanking? Or perhaps they've been playing other jobs for so long and coming back to it, they are trying to get in the groove. That or healer/dps suck so much they can't feel confident pulling larger. But assuming none of those, just kindly ask if able to pull a bit more if they are comfortable. Either way, tankxiety is a thing and lot of people have been talking about it all over the place.

- People at max level who have no idea how to play their class whatsoever (example: Fire 1 Mage at level 80) = Umm, curious which way you're pointing this out and whether you may not know how to play their job. (Yeah, it's a job, not a class! I mean, if we're getting as picky and annoyed as you're saying you are about people not doing things right). For example, current meta for BLM is for Fire phase to be Fire 4 x6 followed by Fire 1 then it gets into Despair. You can try to check https://www.akhmorning.com/jobs/blm/...tion/#rotation
I mean, that's if you're sitting here saying it's wrong that a lv 80 Mage used Fire 1...in which case you're completely in the wrong.

And I guess you must be an alt. At least I hope you are, otherwise seeming like a troll. I say that because when went to check your character out, see you're only lv 51 Scholar/Arcanist and 15 Goldsmith.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Since the relative nerfs to healer and tank single-target damage (removal of CS, Sword Oath, etc.), literally every dungeon I did while leveling my alt, if at least one DPS had an AoE, the tank full-pulled. All but one was a Sprout, as were most of those I was running with. Yes, that goes as low as Tam-tara.

---

I love watching tanks try to big-pull stone vigil, then the inevitable wipe and the tank sheepishly pulling smaller after that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fellgon

Tutorial to new players are the greens sprouds quests! right in the beguinning of eatch capital. Usually at the inn. I been in 14 since remake of game, past 1.0. The learning curve of skills and dg are very satisfying. No problem to learn, cause i had previous exp with wow.

---

Those don't teach you anything but the basics of the basics. It doesn't teach you about eye gazes, stack markers, proximity attacks, bombs, etc. There's just way too many incredibly vital things that they just tossed into the game without explicitly teaching it to people. It takes the person having to YouTube or have someone share. When I was on Aether, people were complete pricks and expected everyone to know mechanics. Over on Primal, people actually are calm and teach you. It's been night and day between everyone on Aether thinking they are pro gamers and Primal actually kicking butt while making sure to have fun with each other.

I would love an update to Guildhest, or a rebirth of it, that included Savage mechanics. Or maybe a Hall of Extreme/Savage/Ultimate that's more of a simulation room that allows us to specifically learn and practice mechanics from higher tier content, with Trusts as stand-ins for players. I just REALLY want a place where I can familiarize myself with how something works, without first having to get to phase 2 or something of that fight. I can be confident with 93% of a fight BUT this one very specific part.. but in order to get to it again you have to get several minutes or more into the fight just to challenge it again..

I assume this would be in no way easy to program, and as for varying methods on how to handle mechanics there's no way for devs to future proof that. Still it would be appreciated to have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

An intermediate hall needs to be a thing, as does an experts hall. Tie completion of that to being able to mentor people, and tie completion to being able to progress the MSQ. (You may groan at that, but I groan at max levels not having a clue on how to play)

To go at the point of folks potentially being mad at having to do harder content to progress, should games not have scaling difficulty? It just makes sense. If you're a lower level, you get easier content, start to get half way - get some more challenging content, so on and so forth. As it stands, majority of the dungeons in this game are just reskins of one another... Beyond just having higher tiers of halls, there needs to be content that actually requires people to try. (looking at you, hard mode dungeons that dont exist anymore) Not just EX, Savage, and Ultimate.

---

I wouldn't tie them to mentor as people who just want the crown to just have it would still go and do anything you implemented to keep it. Again I would love it if the game would keep a better learning scale. Yet, I remember the amount of threads people made about Steps of Faith before it got nerfed on how hard it was. It was mostly only difficult because it was one of the few and sometimes the first time you actually had to rely on the rest of the group to know their skills, learn the mechanics and work together. We didn't get anything difficult until Bardem's where people were thrown off with how hard everything hit.

Even the Nadhham was hard for some as up to that point even enemies in solo instances melted. The devs have shied away from having any slight increase of difficulty to the point where when people do actually try something harder than what the story gives them they complain about the spike.

To toss in my own 2 cents as a newish player to this game so I'm fresh in the "learning" process, I can see both sides of the coin being discussed here. I ultimately feel there is room for improvement, but contrary to what some folks have pointedly denoted, I feel like there are nicer ways to help the general player base that doesn't rely upon brute force tactics (which others have wisely noted could cause a lot of players to simply leave the game, which causes everyone to lose).

I've gotten 1 class up to lvl.80, BLM, and I found it interesting that for the first few layers of learning the basic rotation that there was a decent amount of in-game info provided to get the rotation down
- However, upon getting into 2nd and especially 3rd tier abilities, namely lvls 60-80, the information provided dropped off dramatically
- It got to a point where I had to spend a sizable chunk of time in-game, reviewing ability tool tips and experimenting with abilities to really get a feel for them
- And even then, I still wound up needing to go to outside 3rd party sites to really learn more of the scope of the abilities and how to really min/max rotations in various scenarios
- All in all, the only way to really get proficient with these additional layers of information required doing a lot of homework, especially outside of the game, which seems pretty counter-intuitive

This last part has stood out the most to me; it isn't even the fact that I had to do research to learn how to layer rotations / abilities based on use-case, but the fact that I had to do it outside of the game itself. It bugs me whenever I have to leave a game to learn that game.

Some of the absolute best games proffer as much information as humanly possible within, which in turn can inspire greater interest to explore more aspects of the game itself since invariably snippets of information can lead to other such snippets.

As for rewards, that's kinda mixed... I like the idea of a personal scaling or scoring system, something that give a player an idea of how they're performing on a technical level. A reward for optimizing rotations, etc. could be cool but also dangerous because depending on how it's set up could lead to equally bad play if not all use-cases / scenarios are mapped out well. And any form of reward applied at a group level would instantly instill the same kind of toxicity that I specifically left WoW to get away from, so I sincerely hope nothing of that level ever gets applied.

I rather like the current system with the Duty Finder; I've found it incredibly helpful to learn from experienced players as I've progressed, and in-turn I'm already getting into scenarios where I'm able to help other new players along (which to me is the best, always feels cooler to know I've helped someone enjoy the game than just me getting some shiny new "thing" I'll be replacing at some point anyway, lol).

Yeah I mean I'm all on board for the player base getting less shit and all. But I'm just going to do full light party roulettes and only use pf and just have fun memeing if someone wants to do a roulette that has more than 8 people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Gonna get to the rest of your points, but feel its necessary to go after this FIre 1 thing. I knew someone would try to be like oh ITS YOU who doesnt know whats going on. No. They were doing Fire 1s into Despair, Freeze, Fire 3, repeat. Like, dont sit here and tell me.

Like do you think Id make a thread about expected behavior? TO assume this is just asinine imo.

---

And it is important to look at way I phrased. I asked questions in both things you quoted and responded. Well, first was supposed to have a ? after part about being an alt, but looks like I put a period instead. But it was me asking if an alt and hoping so. Guess I'm getting used to what people are saying is Titanman posts and all, where people create posts just for drama. So I was trying to figure out if that's anything of what this was or where it went.

Then on fire one, I just asked if that's what you meant. If it was, pointed out what rotation might be. Now you've responded that's not the case. So it just is clarification without attacking or blaming each other. Only saying that as your bit about "IT YOU" and "don't sit here and tell me" appeared to me as if you were getting defensive and phrasing like I attacked. Maybe I'm just reading more into it, but trying to address in case, so we can be on the same page and know it's all friendly discussion and trying to figure out solutions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SniperCT

I love watching tanks try to big-pull stone vigil, then the inevitable wipe and the tank sheepishly pulling smaller after that.

---

Yeah that's about the first to really force some splits. For that one, the other Bard and I just slowed the first pack and had them down by the time he arrived at the third pack (in the room past the hallway), and then he did the last two packs separately before the boss. The pulls were about the same size as the gate-to-gate stuff; it just lacked gates to force the pull size limits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaitoAsaha

I would love an update to Guildhest, or a rebirth of it, that included Savage mechanics. Or maybe a Hall of Extreme/Savage/Ultimate that's more of a simulation room that allows us to specifically learn and practice mechanics from higher tier content, with Trusts as stand-ins for players. I just REALLY want a place where I can familiarize myself with how something works, without first having to get to phase 2 or something of that fight. I can be confident with 93% of a fight BUT this one very specific part.. but in order to get to it again you have to get several minutes or more into the fight just to challenge it again..

I assume this would be in no way easy to program, and as for varying methods on how to handle mechanics there's no way for devs to future proof that. Still it would be appreciated to have.

---

I would love this as well. When we were doing E4S I was lamenting that we had to do half the fight to get to the stuff we were still learning lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SniperCT

This entire thread reeks of the elitism I thought we were supposed to be above.

Also wtf groups have you people been getting, I've almost never run into players who weren't playing decently (or were unwilling to accept some advice when they were clearly new and learning) and I've been mainlining leveling dungeon roulettes for weeks. My negative experiences have been mostly from mentors but that's to be expected lol

---

Just go and take a deep dive of tales from the duty finder thread. I solo que the DF most of the time and have played since 2.0 Beta. I've come across everything from non aoeing dps, bards that don't use both of their dots on anything but the boss, don't sing, dancers that never pick a dance partner, drgs that never give their eye to anyone even themselves, CD allergic tanks, use provoke halfway into a boss, don't put stance on until half the party is dead on the first pull. People who don't use feint or virus even if it's not at a good time to do so. I could go on listing a whole lot more, but I think you get the picture. You might not notice them, but they definitely exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goji1639

The job quests should probably actually teach you the job you're playing. Walk you through your abilities and require their use for quest completion.

---

Some of them do try to teach. The lv15 gla teaches you to use your Aoe skill. The npc even will repeatedly ask you to do so. The sch quest where you used to need to use leaches still will again repeatedly ask you to now use esuna. Now, I do agree not every class/job quest does this and that sometimes people don't pay attention to what gets said in the duties. Even the hall of the Novice tries to teach you things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SniperCT

This entire thread reeks of the elitism I thought we were supposed to be above.

Also wtf groups have you people been getting, I've almost never run into players who weren't playing decently (or were unwilling to accept some advice when they were clearly new and learning) and I've been mainlining leveling dungeon roulettes for weeks. My negative experiences have been mostly from mentors but that's to be expected lol

---

Most groups are decent and unremarkable, but the bad ones really stand out. I've had everything from single pull tanks with long pauses between, to healers that straight?? never healed at all? and weren't casting either like the number of healers I see just doing literal nothing is baffling??? ...To a tank who kept chain pulling entire hallways when the healer definitely couldn't handle it and didn't chill til 3 wipes and a bunch of complaining later, or the healer who ran and pulled ahead of me (the tank) when my sprint was on CD and then proceeded to run in circles around the room so I had to chase them down to pick everything up, to the run where we wiped TWICE on the dog tree boss in don mheg because no one was taking the tethers despite??? so many explanations????

Wait edit to add my favorite - this one time we had like, a ton of wipes to Forgall in Wiping City, and nobody could figure out the zombie mechanic (that I had explained four times, in increasingly detailed ways, with help from others), and it was just taking out half the group every time. And then FINALLY, after like 4 or 5 wipes, we got it. And this guy. This ONE guy. In the chat. Is like. "So how do you survive that mechanic?" I had to take a second to not actually just lie down on the floor and cry.

Anyway yeah, you run enough dungeons you'll eventually run into some wild stuff

Not much to be done for it though. You can lead a horse to water and all that... and I've never played an MMO were I didn't encounter some kind of off the wall nonsense, barring maybe Archeage and ESO purely because I didn't play them all that much and mostly stuck to myself when I did. I've been guilty of playing pretty badly myself before, too. Nobody's really immune. I pretty much just laugh it off for the most part, at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

I think that the best and most fair solution would be to have dungeons, trials, raids, etc. have an individual minimum DPS objective. If you fail to meet that objective you are not able to roll for loot or it doesn't count for quest completition.

Or add time objectives to dungeons, example finish within 20 minutes and you get bonus gil/exp/items, finish within 21-30 minutes and you get normal exp/gil/items, take more than 30 minutes and you don't get rewards.

---

The people who need the rewards the most are the ones who take the longest, though. You want to run with people who can't do their rotation AND have worse gear than what a dungeon gives?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

- A dungeon where the groups of mobs respawn if you don't pull and kill them altogether (like that Guildhest no one runs) to teach tanks to do wall to wall pulls

---

They literally do the opposite and put gates/doors in dungeons to prevent bigger pulls, which they've been doing since ARR. They saw how people wanted to run from the start straight to the boss in Amdapor Keep and said "No".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

It's under Prohibited Actions of the ToS-> Obstruction of Play. You are preventing people from progressing with the game by purposefully pulling single group of mobs.

---

But you're compelling a certain playstyle, which is also against the ToS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

It's under Prohibited Actions of the ToS-> Obstruction of Play. You are preventing people from progressing with the game by purposefully pulling single group of mobs.

---

excuse me what? you mean not progressing as fast as you want.... because last I checked, finishing the run is progressing. amount pulled depends on playstyle, so its your view that both healer and tank should be stressed because they arent going fast enough for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fawkes

But you're compelling a certain playstyle, which is also against the ToS.

---

And the tank refusing to pull more than a single pack despite needing no more than a precast HoT or shield and a single oGCD to remain healthy throughout... isn't compelling a certain playstyle?

@all the people saying "maybe tank/healer is new" please reread the OP and make sure you understand what he is saying. He is talking about level 70-80 dungeons. No one is new at that point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Honestly, I think an Intermediate Hall + Expert Hall would cover this.
You do the Novice hall to get a very base idea of what you should do. Tanks turn on stance, get mobs, healers heal & sometimes damage when they can, dps just doing dps stuff (I don't quite remember this one lmao)
Intermediate & Expert just compound on it.
I can already picture some scenarios for BLM. Could go over the use case of Aetherial Manipulation + Between the lines to have you slide to an NPC to dodge an aoe, then slide back to dodge another for example. This would require some effort on the devs part, but I think it'd be beneficial.

---

Much as I agree and want such a hall, I don't think it's going to happen. This is a reply from Mr.Happy to a commenter on one of his interviews with YoshiP, asking him if he could ask Yoshi about a revamped Hall like you're asking about.

https://i.imgur.com/DsB5s01.png

I honestly think the devs are making a serious mistake here and that something should be done to help the playerbase more, but I also think that's not going to happen unless something major happens to change things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kes13a

excuse me what? you mean not progressing as fast as you want.... because last I checked, finishing the run is progressing. amount pulled depends on playstyle, so its your view that both healer and tank should be stressed because they arent going fast enough for you?

---

You're so right. This is a perfect example of a long-term FF14 player who knows the system inside out, and considers any other playstyle "wrong". Which, if nothing else, is a selfish attitude. As a player who has just transitioned from WoW, the tank charging about gathering everything in sight is horrifying. That's how you wipe! Then there's the other element; WHY are you in such a rush?? So you can go do other stuff and get more mad lootz?? OK, that's what tickles your fancy and that's fine...but it's not what I'm after. I'm after the story. After all, I never intend to come back to this dungeon because I *don't* like group content. And that's MY playstyle...

Honestly, this is the one factor that may force me to go back to WoW; toxic and grindy, and stupid as it is. There, I don't have to do dungeons if I don't want to. I'm not going to get the best loot and that's fine; I don't need it for open world content. But in FF14 if I want to advance the story, I have no choice; I HAVE to do group content. I have a level 36 character at the moment who hasn't been contacted by a Grand Company...whatever that is, who can't get a mount, who has no idea where to go to see more of the main story and I think I've figured out that it's because I haven't done any dungeons beyond Tam-Tara (although nowhere is that stated in exactly those words...not in any doco, website, youtube video, tutorial or anywhere else). And that makes me very uncomfortable for exactly the expectations expressed by some in this thread. "You're not doing it right!" I don't want to bother other people by not playing they way they expect me to. Nor do I want to have to rely on others to play through the game; I just want to be left alone.

Kes13a is correct; the only way to NOT do any content correctly is if you wipe and don't complete it, and hopefully if that happens all the players learn something. There's an element of finishing it in a reasonable amount of time as well, I will concede that. But if we finish in 20 minutes instead of 15, what does it really matter?? This is a game, for goodness sake, and one that gives nothing tangible. It's just us First World people wasting time for our pleasure; we don't need to do this to earn a living.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lezard21

He is talking about level 70-80 dungeons. No one is new at that point.

---

What about job boosts?
Or someone who leveled SMN or SCH and are trying the other one out?
They could also be a returning player or someone picking an old job back up.
There are plenty of reasons one might not know their class at 70-80.
Heck, when I was a new player I got to cap and still had no idea what I was doing for months.

Because the game is way too easy now. You can just mash your controller/keyboard and stumble through every piece of content barring EX/Savage.

There hasn’t been a challenging dungeon in years but the decision to put them all behind MSQ made it even worse. You can’t scale the difficulty too high because then you’d lock players out of finishing the story. So they’re all absolute face roll stuff.

If there’s no in game indicator you’re doing something “wrong” you’ll never be prompted to reevaluate how to get better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

What about job boosts?
Or someone who leveled SMN or SCH and are trying the other one out?
They could also be a returning player or someone picking an old job back up.
There are plenty of reasons one might not know their class at 70-80.
Heck, when I was a new player I got to cap and still had no idea what I was doing for months.

---

To be fair, the last one would be a non-issue, so long as there were additional tools (be they guildhests, Halls of the Novice/Journeyman/Master/etc., or even just Active Help entries, etc.) to make up for the retroactive increase in engagement/knowledge required. For those truly new, they'd already be pathed through those learning requirements, and thus there'd be no sudden gap.

Pair that with some job-specific resources, such as a Vindictus-style or better Actions & Traits Pane (i.e., one that actually visually demonstrates each skill under the contexts it ought be used, along with concise but powerful tips) or the like and you've covered the other points of vulnerability, too. And the game would be the better for it, regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And the tank refusing to pull more than a single pack despite needing no more than a precast HoT or shield and a single oGCD to remain healthy throughout... isn't compelling a certain playstyle?

---

generally why when I tank, I tank with people in my fc since I am slow, I admit I am not a confident tank and since I main healer, I tend to know where things get tight if the tank has blown their mitigation. So I dont usually rush things through faster than I am comfortable with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrPresident

Because the game is way too easy now. You can just mash your controller/keyboard and stumble through every piece of content barring EX/Savage.

There hasn’t been a challenging dungeon in years but the decision to put them all behind MSQ made it even worse. You can’t scale the difficulty too high because then you’d lock players out of finishing the story. So they’re all absolute face roll stuff.

If there’s no in game indicator you’re doing something “wrong” you’ll never be prompted to reevaluate how to get better.

---

Define 'wrong'

As a tank I keep every mob on me no dropped aggro, but I only did 1-2 packs at a time and not wall to wall. Am I wrong for going at a pace I feel comfortable with and know I will get everyone through the content.

As a DPS am I wrong for singling out that Wasp that has a near OHK first before aoeing everything the tank brought together. Does it take a few extra seconds to get through everything yes, but I killed something that could have messed up how the group was rolling.

As a healer I throw out a GCD barrier a bit more often because I want a little more 'cushion' on the tank's health just incase someone misses a wasp sting or similar, my DPS is slightly down but I minimized the chance of a hiccup, lagspike, etc screwing my healing up by being slightly proactive.

They might not be 'optimal' in many people's eyes, but are those playstyles truly 'wrong'...no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

Define 'wrong'

As a tank I keep every mob on me no dropped aggro, but I only did 1-2 packs at a time and not wall to wall. Am I wrong for going at a pace I feel comfortable with and know I will get everyone through the content.

As a DPS am I wrong for singling out that Wasp that has a near OHK first before aoeing everything the tank brought together. Does it take a few extra seconds to get through everything yes, but I killed something that could have messed up how the group was rolling.

As a healer I throw out a GCD barrier a bit more often because I want a little more 'cushion' on the tank's health just incase someone misses a wasp sting or similar, my DPS is slightly down but I minimized the chance of a hiccup, lagspike, etc screwing my healing up by being slightly proactive.

They might not be 'optimal' in many people's eyes, but are those playstyles truly 'wrong'...no.

---

When tanking or healing I put MARKERS up on those bees in Qarn and tell the DPS to focus fire them lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaylal

I have a level 36 character at the moment who hasn't been contacted by a Grand Company...whatever that is, who can't get a mount, who has no idea where to go to see more of the main story and I think I've figured out that it's because I haven't done any dungeons beyond Tam-Tara (although nowhere is that stated in exactly those words...not in any doco, website, youtube video, tutorial or anywhere else). And that makes me very uncomfortable for exactly the expectations expressed by some in this thread. "You're not doing it right!" I don't want to bother other people by not playing they way they expect me to. Nor do I want to have to rely on others to play through the game; I just want to be left alone.

---

Check the upper left of your screen there's supposed to be a little button that tells you where to go next in the MSQ

Yes, the chocobo and etc opens up as you do the MSQ. You will on occasion have to do duty finder. Several trials (single boss fights) and a dungeon or two every once in awhile. There are three between 15 and 20, a trial at 20, 2 dungeons in the 20s, 1 dungeon and trial in the 30s, etc(at 50 are 2 special dungeons that...just follow along they tend to be hectic but are faceroll and square never did anything like them again. Players do them on repeat for huge XP bonuses for alt classes.). each series of patches adds a trial and dungeon or two over the course of an expansion's life. At 50 you'll also have to do the Crystal Tower alliance raid but it's roughly LFR difficulty and most runs are pretty smooth.

MOST runs will be smooth and MOST players will be polite and offer tips and friendly advice, I think the people on the forums are extra salty but the same can be said of every MMO. I at least try to be nice to people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kes13a

generally why when I tank, I tank with people in my fc since I am slow, I admit I am not a confident tank and since I main healer, I tend to know where things get tight if the tank has blown their mitigation. So I dont usually rush things through faster than I am comfortable with.

---

Oh I understand getting the occasional inexperienced tank (even if increasingly less so with levels past their boost when the MSQ experience clearly went to another job).

I just don't understand the hypocrisy of saying that a party asking their tank (who has yet to drop below 80% HP even without getting a single GCD heal during the fight itself) to pull more than a single pack at a time is "forcing" their playstyle upon others and has breached the ToS even while insisting that the tank refusing to pull more, despite being fully able to survive without a single press other than to spam their first AoE button, is somehow blameless.

One is a request that the bottlenecking individual follow majority preferences, at least to the extent possible for that individual. The other is a literal barrier, penetrable only by a kick.