Pld once again got the short stick.

PLD would be fine if they stopped making everything relying around aoe. Why don't we have normal dungeons and raids with single targets? Even a few at a time is okay..but everything in this game is aoe aoe aoe.

WAR AoE hate management is in question now that Collusion and Whirlwind have been changed, and I've already said I'm in support of a cooldown reduction.

Physical Defense reduction would be awesome if it was added to Flash, IMO. It would also be nice if the AoE Regen Effect of Divine Veil created a hate boost for the PLD on all targets he has hate registered to as well, depending on how many targets receive the effect.

Again, I'm not against more buffs for PLD. I just don't think the idea of "Pld needs AoE" damage is the sole answer, even though I too want frigging sword parries with shield.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

So forgive my ignorance, having only played GLA/PLD up to 33. But why, exactly, is it the case that PLDs have such a hard time keeping hate with Flash? It has the exact same cooldown as Steel Cyclone, no TP cost to muck things up, and has the nice perk of Blind on top. MRD/WAR has Whirlwind on a 1.33 minute timer so another burst of hate once every 4th 30s cycle. Meanwhile, GLA/PLD has Rampart, Sentinel, and War Drum (War Drum alone should be enough to put GLA/PLD back in the mix with a mere 1 minute cooldown). Flash's and War Drum's enmity would have to be absolutely abysmal to not come out on top, given that.

So could someone explain to me why this is such a big problem?

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The problem is like what viion stated in their previous post.

Why take a PLD when the game revolves (for some odd reason) around aoe when a WAR can not only keep hate on all the mobs but also aoe damage them quickly as well. PLD have no aoe damage...they have aoe hate abilities yes but when war has both...meh

simply, the war aoe allows them to lead a group, which should be the pld role...

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Just incase you need help reading buddy

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Blocking combo = Phalanx -> Spirits Within

Not War Drum. Not Rampart. Both of which are AoE "Provokes."

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

The problem is like what viion stated in their previous post.

Why take a PLD when the game revolves (for some odd reason) around aoe when a WAR can not only keep hate on all the mobs but also aoe damage them quickly as well. PLD have no aoe damage...they have aoe hate abilities yes but when war has both...meh

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Amazing that we've established something:

Tanks need aoe. No the game is not going to change to suit paladin thus paladin has to change to suit the game.

Also one enemy at the time is some kind of dated concept because players should get action not hound one mob at time.

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Originally Posted by Answa

Sentinel >> War Drum >> Flash >> Rampart

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That doesn't address the not doing good damage issue. War with steel cyclone is the reason nobody will take Paladins on speed runs or anything they want to die fast.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

Blocking combo = Phalanx -> Spirits Within

Not War Drum. Not Rampart. Both of which are AoE "Provokes."

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you cant war drum with out blocking you moron

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Originally Posted by Zumi

That doesn't address the not doing good damage issue. War with steel cyclone is the reason nobody will take Paladins on speed runs or anything they want to die fast.

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Was I answering damage? I don't think I was addressing anything regarding damage. On bosses like Batraal (read: single targets), I deal a good amount of damage just by myself.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

you cant war drum with out blocking you moron

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And? You were talking about the blocking combo. Or did I read your post more thoroughly than you wanted me to, Mr. "Padadin." If you're playing smart there's no reason you should be losing hate on all the mobs to the point where you can't trigger it. You also have Rampart for real emergencies, yes it's a long cooldown, but an AoE flash every 30 seconds (the same recast timer as Steel Cyclone) is more than enough to hold hate. War Drum is not to be spammed when it's up, if you've having trouble holding hate, tell your BLM to cool his jets, just like a WAR would.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

That doesn't address the not doing good damage issue. War with steel cyclone is the reason nobody will take Paladins on speed runs or anything they want to die fast.

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Need to wait and see what DMG steel cyclone does before addressing that.

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Originally Posted by Square

Physical area of effect attack damage has been reduced.

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This could mean that either it is reduced depending on how many mobs you're hitting with the AoE or that only the main target is inflicted with the full dmg and the ones hit around your AoE are significantly decreased. Thus balancing PLD's AoE hate vs WAR's AoE damage.

Just 30 minutes til we know precisely how this all pans out.

Edit: now that I think about it, Steel Cyclone doesn't have a main target and is just an AoE around yourself. So, really, it will be affected by all targets. The question is how little?

lets look at combos shall we. when you begin a combo with the start the next ability lights up making the combo. when you Block the war drum lights up making it a combo. And Flash is good when you use it with Sentienel. But War can do it to. And wars has steel cyclone and that ability that gives them more hate with there attacks. Giving War more. With another Aoe provoke thats only native to Paladins and shorter cooldowns it allow other DD to attack faster other than waitng for pld to build up the hate that War can build in 10 seconds.

For instance Ifrit give me enough time to go through a cycle of my hate gains and enough time to get off Provoke and Flash off twice ifrit will no leave me at all no matter how hard the blm cast. The we let the War do it and with the old Cyclone combos us blms could attack a whole lot earlier than waiting on pld

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

lets look at combos shall we. when you begin a combo with the start the next ability lights up making the combo.

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That's a reactive ability, like Haymaker and Feint. Combos are comprised of a weapon skill or spell that activates a bonus power in another weapon skill or spell, resulting in a purple focusing animation on the player when you trigger it and a bigger animation when you complete it.

But then we're just arguing semantics.

I will concede that skills such as Flash and Rampart need a smaller cooldown, something on the order of Flash being 20 or even 15 seconds on cooldown, and maybe with Rampart being on a 1 minute cooldown with it's defense duration lasting 45 or even 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

PLD would be fine if they stopped making everything relying around aoe. Why don't we have normal dungeons and raids with single targets? Even a few at a time is okay..but everything in this game is aoe aoe aoe.

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Agreed 100%. This game is an AoE fest, that's what really screws over PLD (and MNK). They should make some encounters just a badass single enemy instead of a scrubby boss with a bunch of Captain Save a Mobs coming in to help him/her.

Paladin simply needs a better AOE to challange Warrior's Steel cyclone.

LOL I got 10 extra HP boost on PLD. Thanks SE! PLD is boss now. -_-

GLA: 3294 then PLD: 3304 and that is with my gear on. are you kidding me?..

See I told yall they are addressing the wrong issues :x

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Agreed 100%. This game is an AoE fest, that's what really screws over PLD (and MNK). They should make some encounters just a badass single enemy instead of a scrubby boss with a bunch of Captain Save a Mobs coming in to help him/her.

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I think part of the problem is SE has had a long history of problems making single target mobs that aren't zergable and having to give them 1-shot moves in order to present a challenge. I think part of it could be remedied by presenting scale-able content based on the number of participants in the group. Less people could mean a reduction in monsters, mobs level, or a bonus to players based on the size of the party or having a more diverse group. I mean there's alot of ways to play around with this method and make it more friendly for jobs and smaller groups overall, but it seems they're pretty focused on a simple content structure.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

That's a reactive ability, like Haymaker and Feint. Combos are comprised of a weapon skill or spell that activates a bonus power in another weapon skill or spell, resulting in a purple focusing animation on the player when you trigger it and a bigger animation when you complete it.

But then we're just arguing semantics.

I will concede that skills such as Flash and Rampart need a smaller cooldown, something on the order of Flash being 20 or even 15 seconds on cooldown, and maybe with Rampart being on a 1 minute cooldown with it's defense duration lasting 45 or even 30 seconds.

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im sorry for calling you a moron it was rude and uncalled for i hadnt eaten yet and was in a bad mood. i apologize

Paladin can finally block while casting magic (a defensive mechanic that was removed after the block ability action ceased to exist); this re-addition to the blocking mechanics is a blessing. Also, using Divine Veil now provides you with a 100% cast success chance for the entire 20 seconds of it's duration.

I failed to see this mentioned again in this post and considered it an important mechanic worth mentioning.

I'm borred and I want responses "dang'it"; so without further to do do, I copy and past to you:

I suggest an overhaul to Wardrum! (pld/gla's one and only AoE WS). Times have changed; Wardrum just can't compete with the newer job mechanics AoE hate. The ability states it generates "massive enmity" against all foes in the area, but that hardly seems the case anymore.

For heaven's sake my Lv. 38 BLM friend pulled hate from me (Lv. 50 PLD in full enmity gear --> +90 emity) with a simple fire (his gear was less than adequate at the time for damage dealing) leaving all the Lv. 46 mobs hate list in the yellow state. I activate sentinal+wardrum (with on mob on me because i used provoke and had divine veil) and the mobs still remained in the yellow hate state. I then used Rampart to save his life and grab them all back. I learned from this that a simple provoke taunt contained more emity than a move stating it provided "Massive Emity" on a one minute cooldown.

Obviously something is wrong here. Either Wardrum's damage/emityburst needs to be drasticly increased or it's recast reduced to roughly 20-25 seconds to match it's current, actual potency/potential.

i agree with you sir the coold downs must all be lowered for pld to spam.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

i agree with you sir the coold downs must all be lowered for pld to spam.

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I'm not sure if all of them should be spamable; one step at a time please lol

im sorry ment to say just Wardrum

Lol I'm a happy War.

Sure Steel Cyclone got a bit nerfed in damage, but since we get to actually parry now with our Rampage parry upgrade, War became even better at tanking and will do even more damage.

thats what were talking about. Wars "nerf" wasnt even all that bad so your dmg was suppoedly lowered or just the AoE range big deal they still far out do Pld in dmg. (as they should) and with that parry upgrade you can no use what is it overpower and another move?

Yup mainly Overpower, not really Fracture (unless the pacification debuff finally works on bosses).

Pacification works on some bosses, however it's duration appeared shortened.

War actually seems more involving now; I may actually enjoy playing it now.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

im sorry for calling you a moron it was rude and uncalled for i hadnt eaten yet and was in a bad mood. i apologize

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No worries man

Did CC today had someone tried out PLD and yea pretty much nothing has changed, he later went back to war. War still leaps and bounds better then PLD.

its like i stated before the supposed "Buffs" that pld got wouldnt help it at all. Pld is terrible.

The fact that PLD can now cast without interruption mid-battle is a vast improvement.

Will it change PUGs from picking up WAR over PLD? No. However, it'll allow those of us who aren't using cookie cutter setups to have an easier time with content. Now as a WHM, if I'm dodging an eruption, I don't need to worry about the PLD dying, since he can fend for himself for 10 seconds or so. To say that this hotfix didn't do anything is a bit silly. However, PLD does still need a lot of work done.

true but then MP is the problem cause Pld still burn through its own mp fast especially if there arent any brd in the pt. or the brd cant get to the Pld with fear of Mobs AoEs. hence why i said pld should have a refresh. i mena its part cnj and cnj has refresh.

Patch notes say DoM get "blocking stops casting interruptions", anyone test to make sure this is a PLD buff?
btw I'm seeing 40~50% dmg reduction in my steel cyclone
so now I'm thinking we have 2 half-assed tanks, great job SE

It is some kind of Pld buff, buuuuuut you still have to get the block off during casting.

Wouldn't mind seeing PLD get an extra AoE move. Doesn't have to deal as much damage as Steel Cyclone.

It's disheartening to hear that a DD still outdoes the tank in tanking. I really hope they fix this eventually.

did av/cc post patch nothing has changed, actually for groups of trash WAR got a HUGE boost, from 1k SS for speed runs where you dont' want to waist time doing combo's to the new parry mechanic and being able to almost spam the parry aoe skill over and over its really a nice boost.

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Originally Posted by Otaku

Patch notes say DoM get "blocking stops casting interruptions", anyone test to make sure this is a PLD buff?
btw I'm seeing 40~50% dmg reduction in my steel cyclone
so now I'm thinking we have 2 half-assed tanks, great job SE

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After the patch last night I went to go test this myself. I'm only lv 27 and was engaging mobs around lv 29ish. I did confirm that I was able to block while casting and successfully finish my cast. I'm sure more testing is going to happen tho. I didnt really spend much time testing this rather i just wanted to see if it would work.

i think i can confirm that shield block is 100% cast success for paladin as well, not just DoM

square has never really made a good tank class, don't see why they would start now. The concept of one seems to overwhelm them.