I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

Sub job choice in 11 was never that flexible anyway to be honest, not once the game had been understood by the community and buttersheep was a distant memory. Everyone knew what the best sub was, so you would be expected to use it in group content. It had limited solo possibilities but not that much and the solo side of ff14 isn't even remotely difficult enough to justify sub jobs.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

-snip-

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You act as if there's any way to experiment in FFXI... Hate to break it to you, but there isn't... Everything has been done, years and years and YEARS ago... You're not going to find anything new...

There's nothing dangerous in FFXI anymore either, unless you're purposely going to places to challenge yourself, and you can do that in any game.

Gear in FFXIV, is actually perfect. You can craft it, buy it, sell it, get the NQ stuff is low on gil, etc etc. You say gil means nothing, yet people are daily farming maps, treasures, etc etc to get it. Ya know, all those features FFXIV has?

Jobs are balanced, as the people wanted. See, FFXIV actually has a challenge, requires player skill and reaction time for end game content. Not hardcore, but you have to know your class, time your skills, know other classes etc to do well. Bard is support, same as Dancer. They boost others, sacrificing their own DPS, this is why their personal DPS is so low. Summoner is fine, we don't need massive summons everywhere, the Eigi are perfect, and the job is actually complicated to get used to compared to others, so plays well.

FFXI is tiny, out dated, old and with nothing new. I'm sorry you think different, but facts don't care about opinions at all.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

...FFXI is tiny, out dated, old and with nothing new. I'm sorry you think different, but facts don't care about opinions at all.

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Man that sure was a post full of opinions. Also show us on the mammet where FFXI hurt you.

I think like Mr. Happy.. all this does is allow you to be BAD. The current system is tight and easy to practice. Like we all know how a monk is posed to play. And that makes it easy to see if you're doing the job correctly of not. And it's just easier to work on Dev wise.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Man that sure was a post full of opinions. Also show us on the mammet where FFXI hurt you.

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Not just opinions but poorly thought out, biased and most likely very out of date opinions. I was playing 11 as recently as February, there are tons of content, for relevant useful gear that are a challenge to solo never mind solo cp grinding. To suggest FF11 is "tiny" is mind blowing, the game is enormous as any 20 year old MMO would be.

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Originally Posted by Cetek14

Customization > balance imo. As long as specific job is not obsolete due to absolute lack of balance.

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This is easy to say... if you aren't the job excluded due to poor customization options. Ask White Mages and Samurais how they felt throughout Stormblood. Odds are if you were a White Mage main looking to get into Savage you were either asked several times to play Astro instead or simply weren't taken. Neither White Mage nor Samurai were "obsolete." They simply couldn't compete with what their counterparts brought.

With that said, I do think Shadowbringers went too far attempting to make everything function within a hair of each other. But that's more a lack of creativity on job design than a lack of customization outright.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Is it though?

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Perhaps it was just my luck, but I was invited to far more Kazham leveling parties than I was kicked out of.

And that was the case in general. Some people would have me, some people would not. But it was never impossible for me to find a party.

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You act as if there's any way to experiment in FFXI... Hate to break it to you, but there isn't... Everything has been done, years and years and YEARS ago... You're not going to find anything new...

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Actually yes there is, I've only been playing the game for 2 years and im still learning, like with learning how skillchains work together with other skillchains, how to clear Abyssea, how to get unique weaponskills like for red mage, ect. Maybe not for you, but these are all new to me and i still have alot to learn, like how to be a decent Puppetmaster. Beastmaster, Corsair..

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There's nothing dangerous in FFXI anymore either, unless you're purposely going to places to challenge yourself, and you can do that in any game.

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have you been to Reisenjima? You go there for a Story mission for Rhapsodies of Vana'diel. Those monsters pack a punch and are very dangerous in mobs, even as a level 99 DNC, i had trouble in that area, glad i have Spectral Jig, also i was doing "Guardian of the void" mission in order to get Rudra storm for dancer, i had to spawn some NMs and yes, they were hard, trying to solo dnc. it cast Death on me and instantly i was KO, i am actually have fun dying as it a challenge unlike xiv.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...992&height=558
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...992&height=558
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...992&height=558

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Gear in FFXIV, is actually perfect. You can craft it, buy it, sell it, get the NQ stuff is low on gil, etc etc. You say gil means nothing, yet people are daily farming maps, treasures, etc etc to get it. Ya know, all those features FFXIV has?

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Yeah, gear that you have to change every small patch just for a small ilvl increase, that gives you a little bit more stats than the previous gear. How exciting LOL, other than that, FFXIV gear is stat vomit that does absolutely nothing special, outside of glamor, thats it. FFXI gear lasts for a long time, sometimes BiS, not throw away, and gear is unique like the Kraken Club


and its still worth alot of money, no weapon in ffxiv comes close to how much the weapon costs

https://i.imgur.com/qEl0F6O.png


Another unique example is gear that can increase your Waltz Potency if you need to heal as a Dancer and shit hits the fan, or increase Jig timers

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/3/37/...escription.png

Notthing in FFXIV has unique gear except the euerka gear and maybe the Bozja gear (haste)

Yeah and you can also Craft in FFXI as well, everything you just said except you cant master craft in every crafter but that makes the economy in XI flowing, because there always an item someone needs Whether its for Relic gear turn ins or Augmented relic turn ins ( upgrading level 60 gear to 90 to 99 ilevel 119) every crafter is needed so it helps where as in FFXIV, you can desynth every gear and mats just overflow the markerboard and you cant really make gil or alot of it ( better just doing euerka lockboxes or as you said treasure maps for gil)

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Jobs are balanced, as the people wanted. See, FFXIV actually has a challenge, requires player skill and reaction time for end game content. Not hardcore, but you have to know your class, time your skills, know other classes etc to do well. Bard is support, same as Dancer. They boost others, sacrificing their own DPS, this is why their personal DPS is so low. Summoner is fine, we don't need massive summons everywhere, the Eigi are perfect, and the job is actually complicated to get used to compared to others, so plays well.

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Really? because ffxiv jobs are very homogenized and very bland and boring, i guess when SCH got nerfed to the ground, is that was people wanted? when AST lost its unique Cards so every card is a small DPS balance is what people wanted? Because its as sure as hell not what i wanted, its not even the same job as it once was, not even Fun to play anymore and it was close to a support job as FFXIV can get, now i wont even touch it. i personally Hate what SE did to AST. Also Summoners have been complaining for more summons, they have been asking for MORE EGIs GLAMS, More unique summons as well as SCH have been asking for more Fairy glams, instead SHB SCH got nurfed to the ground and lost the uniqueness of both fairies and SE said," Yeah this is what Scholars want." and just left it at that, didn't even give them any fairy glams. Such a Pitiful way for sch


im getting off topic.... FFXIV jobs are a simple rotation: A+ B+C + ( insert Filler spells, or DoTs) = Dodge Orange off the floor

anything else im missing?

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FFXI is tiny, out dated, old and with nothing new. I'm sorry you think different, but facts don't care about opinions at all.

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They just added new storylines to FFXI

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/resurgence/

as well as new music, Ambuscade updates, and an Assist Channel for New players: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/assistchannel/

and FFXIV is 10 years old and the great thing about Opinions is like an Ass: everyone has one, im glad to think that your Facts doesn't reflect my opinion at all

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

FFXI is tiny, out dated, old and with nothing new. I'm sorry you think different, but facts don't care about opinions at all.

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Though I agree that XIV gearing is largely fine, I'd hardly call it perfect. It works but it's not inspired at all. I actually like the idea of sidegrade sets where different sets have different uses for different builds. That wouldn't work at all with XIV's systems, but that doesn't make it a bad idea overall. It works for XI. One of the benefits of it is that gear actually matters beyond ilvl gates and glamour.

If you aren't doing a new ultimate tier, there is literally zero reason to get BiS for any given tier aside from just being able to say you did. By the time you get it, you literally don't need it anymore and it's going to be absolutely useless for the next tier since if you are the kind of person to GET BiS, you'll be buying/crafting a full set of the new crafted armor so that you can dive immediately into the entire new savage tier. With XI's system, the gear you get actually matters for a longer period of time since it's about different builds.

That system doesn't really work with XIV's set up since XIV is about very static classes. That's fine, but it's not "perfect". Also btw, using the "Facts don't care about feelings" line is not a great look.
Edit: Perhaps a bit harsh.

With the 5.0 tank homogenization I always thought it would be interesting to have the tank stances and OT stances as a role cross class and keep the tank trait as just an enmity buff to all actions regardless of tank stance on or off. However if they do this they will need to revert the old stances with some minor tweaks:

Trait: Tank Mastery - Increased enmity on all attacks, 20% healing received

Shield Oath: 20% defense, -20% dmg dealt, Parry rate increase 10%
Defiance: 25% HP, -20% dmg dealt, 10% crit on healing received
Grit: 20% defense, -20% dmg dealt, Restore MP on damage taken

Enmity gain is canceled for the following OT stances, while active.
Sword Oath: Doubles auto-attack potency, reduces auto-attacks and sks/sps recast by 10%
Deliverance: Increase damage dealt by 5%, Crit rate increases up to 10% at full gauge (or 2 shells for GNB)
Darkside: Increase damage dealt by 15%, continuously drains MP, combo enders regen MP


So any tank can mix and match which tank stance or OT stance they want. A PLD might decide to go with Grit for the Mp regen and Deliverance for that nice 10% crit bonus. A WAR might decide that Shield Oath's steady mitigation is needed and Darkside's 15% would go well during IR windows. A GNB might decide that Shield Oath pairs well with some of its cds and Sword Oath for more haste, etc, you get the picture. This would bring stance dancing back but with the current homogenization of the ogcd it at least offers the freedom to decide how to set up your tank loadouts for any specific scenario.

One issue with your examples there, Defiance seems rather useless.

The only reason the original warrior tank stance was actually useful were the +25% max hp in combination with the +20% received healing...and the fact that it was not on the GCD, because why would I ever choose more overall hp over immediately effective damage mitigation?

This was also one of the reasons why Defiance was an oGCD whereas the other tank stances were not, it did not provide an immediate benefit upon activation. All it did was increase your max hp, it didn't heal you and it did not reduce damage, so until you were healed up to your new 125% hp you essentially just nerfed your damage for no actual benefit.

The subjob system from FFXI was very very good and 100% should be used in some form in future mmos going forward. And for those saying everyone played the same subs. Yes they did in leveling/merit parties. But in endgame subjob was completely situational and all top tier guilds would expect members and new recruits to have multiple subjobs leveled before getting invited. What people went changed depending on the world boss, dungeon, instance and many times what your role was in that specific situation (and I do not mean role as in just dps, healer, tank).

With that said it would not work in FFXIV. It worked in FFXI and it works in games like Archeage. Because those game make a boss and say go at it, figure it out yourself. There is no focus on "Balancing it", no scripted fights, no specific requirement to enter an instance, no specific time limit to kill a boss (Some soft enrages but like 1-2hrs). FFXIV is all about precision mechanics, perfect balancing, extreme scripted fights, and hard DPS checks. FFXI was focused on depth and complexity. FFXIV is focused on extreme ease of use and simplicity. FFXI was easily on the "Hard Core" mmo side of the spectrum. FFXIV is probably the most casual AAA mmo on the market bar none. The games design philosophies are just polar opposites of the spectrum.

Most things in FFXI will not work in FFXIV because of the above. The game designs are counter to each other. The only thing the 2 game share in common are character models and the name Final Fantasy. So while I 100% loved the subjob system no it should not be in ffxiv because it does not fit.

@Jkap_Goat
You posted all of that, and think it's new content, when again, was discovered years ago by others. Again, it's old outdated tiny content. There's nothing new for anyone who have already experienced it. And the resurgence story I won't comment on due to spoilers. But it's just a monthly update, not an expansion, not large, and quickly gone through. You claiming there's new things in the game, is like me claiming Doom has new things for me to explore from 90's.

It's fine you enjoy it. But for those of us who have played it, it's nothing new, nothing exciting, nothing great anymore. My comment stands, it's slow and outpaced by FFXIV in all regards. FFXIV has far too many story lines, unique sub quests, gear options and looks, mount quests, crafting and gathering options and features, bounties, hunts, maps etc etc etc and different ways to complete them.

We don't need sub jobs. They were removed for a reason.

@Komarimono

Great opinion, again as someone said, they are both different games, for me, xiv is just too easy, too much hand holding, not enough flexibility with jobs, heavily script boring fights, hallway linear dungons and too much nerfing especially 24 raids ( void ark is boring as a healer, you can do the whole raid without healing)

XIV is a theme park MMO for a reason, leave and come back when theres new content.

XIV couldn't have subjobs because all jobs are heavily homogenized anyways. Hopefully SE new mmo in the future isnt anything like xiv at all

FFXI feels like a proper Final Fantasy game, xiv has good storylines, everything else is downhill for me there

Im enjoying XI and loving Vanadiel and this adventure i haven't felt in xiv in years

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

@Komarimono

Great opinion, again as someone said, they are both different games, for me, xiv is just too easy, too much hand holding, not enough flexibility with jobs, heavily script boring fights, hallway linear dungons and too much nerfing especially 24 raids ( void ark is boring as a healer, you can do the whole raid without healing)

XIV is a theme park MMO for a reason, leave and come back when theres new content.

XIV couldn't have subjobs because all jobs are heavily homogenized anyways. Hopefully SE new mmo in the future isnt anything like xiv at all

FFXI feels like a proper Final Fantasy game, xiv has good storylines, everything else is downhill for me there

Im enjoying XI and loving Vanadiel and this adventure i haven't felt in xiv in years

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Can't you throw that on XI too though? Just in a different way.

XI is too cookie cutter, you just find an enemies elemental weakness and spam that spell. Very boring.

If melee, you just sit there and auto attack for hours until you can use a skill. Yay, engaging...

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Can't you throw that on XI too though? Just in a different way.

XI is too cookie cutter, you just find an enemies elemental weakness and spam that spell. Very boring.

If melee, you just sit there and auto attack for hours until you can use a skill. Yay, engaging...

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FFXI isnt perfect either, i don't know what melee your playing im FFXI but as a DNC, im using my Florishes with Steps and debuffing monsters, Haste Samba to keep attack speed up. Also you dont attack for hours, have you seen endgame fights?

As i said before FFXI is more strategy and FFXIV is more mashing buttons in a rotation with heavily script fights and lots of homogenized jobs

I can say i dont enjoy FFXI crafting and FFXIV has the upper hand on that, thats it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Can't you throw that on XI too though? Just in a different way.

XI is too cookie cutter, you just find an enemies elemental weakness and spam that spell. Very boring.

If melee, you just sit there and auto attack for hours until you can use a skill. Yay, engaging...

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While the XI system is definitely on the slow side. I actually prefer the idea of auto attacks building up TP to unleash skills. Or even combos like the 1.2 battle system had.

Yes you press less buttons but they feel more impactful and weighty... So much more satisfying than the way XIV works where its basically just mash buttons for what feels like a glorified auto attack..

In XI you could quite often obliterate a "Decent Challenge" mob with a single weapon skill if you stocked up your TP it felt powerful,

In XIV. It takes half or even a dozen skills to drop whats referred to as a "trash" mob... That's how weak your skills feel when it takes so many to kill a piece of "trash"..

Still wish they'd kept the 1.23 battle system. Maybe upped the pace a touch but it was so much more engaging than the current one. Especially with things like the incapacitation system.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Hopefully SE new mmo in the future isnt anything like xiv at all

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"They don't make 'em like they used to!" Yeah, there's a good reason for that (see also, 1.0.) FFXI was an absolutely fantastic game for it's time, but that time was 18 years ago. Games and players have both moved on since then.

Unfortunately this game is too linear and balanced to really make use of a proper sub-job system, which is why it was removed. There is very little to no customization or variety in this game. Everyone has the same gear on, all jobs are every bit as effective as the next, etc. The only customization option you have is materia melding and even then everyone just uses the same ones lol. In fact this even follows through in the battle system where there is very little "skill" involved. As long as you've memorized the enemies rotation, you're golden.

That's the reason glam is the true endgame xD.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

FFXI isnt perfect either, i don't know what melee your playing im FFXI but as a DNC, im using my Florishes with Steps and debuffing monsters, Haste Samba to keep attack speed up. Also you dont attack for hours, have you seen endgame fights?

As i said before FFXI is more strategy and FFXIV is more mashing buttons in a rotation with heavily script fights and lots of homogenized jobs

I can say i dont enjoy FFXI crafting and FFXIV has the upper hand on that, thats it.

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Every fight in FFXI is scripted though, heavily. You have timers for every skill any boss will use, timers for each mobs spawning. Why you knew how many stuns to bring, what skills to use when etc. And you had plenty of time to do it as well, since the fights were extremely slow. FFXI is just knowing the scripted fight, just like FFXIV. The difference is, FFXI you wait to use that skill on a timer, FFXIV relies on player skill to know when to build and keep their rotation while avoiding damage, swapping targets, interrupting and then rely on you knowing how to get back into proper position and rotation again after doing all that, for all types of jobs.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Every fight in FFXI is scripted though, heavily. You have timers for every skill any boss will use, timers for each mobs spawning. Why you knew how many stuns to bring, what skills to use when etc. And you had plenty of time to do it as well, since the fights were extremely slow. FFXI is just knowing the scripted fight, just like FFXIV. The difference is, FFXI you wait to use that skill on a timer, FFXIV relies on player skill to know when to build and keep their rotation while avoiding damage, swapping targets, interrupting and then rely on you knowing how to get back into proper position and rotation again after doing all that, for all types of jobs.

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FFXI encounters were incredibly random when I played it. Wasn't heavily scripted at all. That's what made it the challenge.. You never knew what a boss would do or when... Suzaku could use his chainspell at 99% health or 11% health... Byakko could pop perfect dodge at 51% or even at 3% Omega could use his skills in any order he wanted so could Ultima I believe. Many bosses were the same... at least in the 75 era.

Not like XIV where you know when you can time every tank buster or bosses move to the second. many poeple have said thats what makes XIV boring especially for the healers.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

The subjob system from FFXI was very very good and 100% should be used in some form in future mmos going forward. And for those saying everyone played the same subs. Yes they did in leveling/merit parties. But in endgame subjob was completely situational and all top tier guilds would expect members and new recruits to have multiple subjobs leveled before getting invited. What people went changed depending on the world boss, dungeon, instance and many times what your role was in that specific situation (and I do not mean role as in just dps, healer, tank)

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I'm not sure when you last played it but flexibility of sub jobs is very limited now. Not because the game changed dramatically, but because the players got more aware of what they wanted and needed.

2 handed DD = /sam, every time. The only possibility that this changes is if the new WSD trait drg got proves to be more DPS when the spreadsheet types have finished theory crafting it, if so it will simply swap to /drg, every time.

DW job = /nin if they need the trait, /war if they don't.

Corsair is /war if fighting at range and using Last Stand, /nin if fighting melee or when using Leaden Salute.

Brd, since the update a while back where they got amazing melee gear they are /nin now. Long gone are the days people expected brd to be a horribly gimp sub healer.

Pld = /blu, every time

Run = /blu when your gear sucks, /drk when it doesn't.

Geo = /rdm, every time.

Smn = /rdm.

All other mages /sch, except for rdm who finally, as the last job on the list, gets to choose between /whm or /blm

You can obviously do any combo you want, but the players know what's best, they know what their strat is built around and you will be expected to conform, or go play solo as a buttersheep, up to you.

Sub jobs were never about freedom of expression in how you play your class, it was a mandatory set of skill you still had to have, but had to level a completely different job to get. I leveled all jobs to 99 anyway, so it didn't bother me at all, I could use whatever but that didn't change the fact that freedom of choice was an illusion.

This is all talking about endgame, nobody cares what you do in a CP party (meripo) these days as anyone with a half decent DD can kill the mob in 20 seconds anyway, half the party is leeching regardless.

Since we're on about it, and another thread sort of dredged up similar thoughts (a bit tangential lol), there are many things I think classical games / inspired games have that I really enjoy. I think "wow I wish we had that old stuff again", and then there are many things I think "sweet baby Kupo, thank god that is gone".

I do not want to play FFXI, as it was (technically people who have memory of FFXI have an inaccurate view of how it is now, it's sooooo different compared to how it was back when it was SE's main). But there are things in it that I find cute or cool. Even WoW has a lot of this old thought inspiration and occasionally I reference it.

So for example, and this was brought up in the other thread about weakness, I like the idea of monsters having characteristics that make them feel more unique. Often these are extra details that are not really needed for the whole system to function but got added anyway because 'that makes sense'. So like in that other thread I wasn't really into bringing back elemental weakness (due to profound reverberating issues that could cause now) but I had mentioned how cool it was that you could stop a Goblin bomb from going off properly by making certain movements, or avoid some damage from fungar's by standing in the right place. You didn't 'need' to know it but it just added some flavor. Naturally, as I said in that other thread, some of this is represented by our aoe markers, but the concept was just an example. Say going on FFXI again you had tigers that could run as fast as your chocobo, which just made them stick out in your mind. Here in FFXIV you might reference the first time you're in Shroud and fight a Malboro or get hit by the breath from someone else, and you're like OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH MY GOD. To me the point isn't to always have insufferable traits, just things that stick out and often they stick out as extra detail. Like if you were drawing a character and you get something neat looking but not particularly memorable and add a few more details on top so it's just "that" much more, difference between nice and "woah" ("I'll remember that"). Sometimes, in general not just FFXIV, it seems games have trouble having those moments, probably because they truly are just extra and often are probably some dev being too attentive to certain concepts, but when you find games that have it- it just 'feels' whole. Depending on what you do these extra feels can cause huge problems, but that's why I've on many occasions tried to add 'extra' suggestions that have no combat impact (even simple things like dragoon not taking fall damage etc).

It's one of my more major criticisms in FFXIV is that they are so streamlined that sometimes it's a little challenging to have those moments that stick out as 'extra' (you can see it in some elements of course, like pretty much anything written or decoration, but I feel in the game 'play' side of things this is where FFXIV struggles to goof off with). To example WoW then you have these neat features of jobs that make you feel special as that job, say as a Druid you can transform into your fast movement speed form in combat or you can mount someone else on you or you gain an abnormally large breadth of options, a demon hunter who can glide, dark knight walk on water, warlocks who can summon their allies, on and on (it's a decent list of unique and weird things you can do just because they're fun and not necessarily because it needs to be there for combat balance, like having the scout eye as Warlock). This moves into races and items as well, with unique traits that exist there. One of my more favorite examples in crafting is the Engineer stuff, where you can craft yourself a huge selection of unique features and attachments. Of course, as said before, certain concepts would be larger issues (say if you let a certain job have a permanent 20% movement speed buff in combat, that could be bad in implications to certain fights, but you can always tweak such an idea like this job can transform into their movement form in combat but the movement bonus doesn't apply in synced content, basically like blue mage with their movement skill basic instinct).

Of course when I mention stuff like this I don't meant 1:1, personally I don't think racial differences would be a good thing to stick in FFXIV, especially this late but also it'd kind of hurt the "play the job you want" idea, but yet you could still have goofy trinkets, unique features to jobs or crafters. Like if you leveled your crafter you might have 'personal crafts' that you can go out of your way to make that give you cool gadgets and feel a personal reward for your skills in that trade. Bard might be an example where this has a light existence, with Bard you do gain the ability to play music. With dancer they could add dancing system.

I think I'd call it something a bit paradoxical like modern old school. Avoid some of the unnecessary pain but keeping some of that wild quirkiness that wasn't stamped out by a sort of corporate production "that isn't needed, don't do it". Of course sometimes if you do too much extra you just take forever to make the game and extra doesn't always make fun, so there is a balance- but I don't think FFXIV struck the balance on the 'play' side of things as well as it might have been able to. To balance out some of the criticism, FFXIV does have an entire area dedicated to mini-games (Golden Saucer), and has tried concepts like deep sea fishing, and a crafting system that is far more complex than the majority of MMOs I have seen. So one may want to amend FFXIV struggles with extra to more specifically struggles to imbue it closer to the metal of 'everyday' play. There exists 'extra' out there if you go find it, but say and again my cheesy easy example Dragoon shouldn't take fall damage.. It's just not logical in the sense of what they do and are- the logical sense of 'extra' here would be giving stuff like that. One might say "okay fall damage, but even giving them higher jump could cause issues to zone design, can't do that" - which I had already thought (restrict higher jump to when you've unlocked the currents, which means you can fly- and if you land on anything un-pathable just give them the Sun Wukong / Kain (FFV) standing pose and from there allow them to continue jumping about / or summon the mount or teleport).

For another old school 'modern' example, I LOVE the idea of traveling and seeing the environment and I think too instantaneous travel can damage some of the world aspects- but I'd never want to see any form of quick travel nerfed to FFXI tiers where it could literally (at least in the old days) take you an hour to get somewhere and all the effort for not when someone else failed to bring certain supplies. (Also why I never want to have to form my own parties for the majority, if not all, the content I want to play in a game- I hate begging for parties like in FFXI, very done with that experience lol). Personally would like to emphasize the journey in the game, would love to see camps even be a thing as was in many FF sRPGs (or the fancy inspiration from FFXV), but not to the point of wasting an hour. An entire post could go into how one might modernize yet experience that sort of flow, so I'd not here but I might say it something like what struck me when listening to a Miyazaki (Studio Ghibli) interview where the quiet moments are purposefully placed to act as balance and breath and adds overall to the experience. Sometimes I use GW2's mount system as an example in conjunction with the cliff wall in Khoulsia, if you were able to leap from outcropping to outcropping to make your way up the cliff it would take you like 15-30 seconds longer but make that wall feel absolutely huge in comparison to just holding space bar and w. In WoW most boats and zeppelins came after few minutes and were exceptionally fast, so the experience of your first boat ride was pretty easy on the wait but also unique to the scale factor of the world (especially made better because you actually were in it, rather in FFXIV where it's a quick cutscene; although, of course WoW gets off easier on that since it's open world... FFXIV would have to design an entire world map).

Sometimes modern old school makes things simpler and less punishing but other times I think it means actually getting more complex- personally I see many of the jobs in FFXI and how you play them and I'm just not interested in that type of combat anymore, not that many interworking links and while there are some combinations I'd prefer even more craziness like a Hades or Diablo 3 (layers of layers that echo into other layers), so I'd never want something so simple in mechanical interplay of abilities (FFXIV's 1 - 50 blue mage reminded me of an even more simple FFXI blue mage, that wasn't a good feeling, 60 - 70 is more modern designed imo).

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Every fight in FFXI is scripted though, heavily. You have timers for every skill any boss will use, timers for each mobs spawning. Why you knew how many stuns to bring, what skills to use when etc. And you had plenty of time to do it as well, since the fights were extremely slow. FFXI is just knowing the scripted fight, just like FFXIV. The difference is, FFXI you wait to use that skill on a timer, FFXIV relies on player skill to know when to build and keep their rotation while avoiding damage, swapping targets, interrupting and then rely on you knowing how to get back into proper position and rotation again after doing all that, for all types of jobs.

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No
FFXI monsters have TP like players, so they use skill depending on their TP gain, and choose at random.
There are some scripted gimmick for some boss, and some boss have a general scripted guideline (Odin for example has a skill at 75%/50%/25% HP, another skill every 10%, the Valkyries spawn at random 10% thresholds, and Zantetsuken at 10% ; this is the most scripted fight I remember, and of course he uses other skills/spells freely outside this general framework)

In the end, even without the scripted part, "knowledge" is as important as FFXIV but it's not "The boss will use skill A then B then C", it's "The boss can use skills A, B and C"

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Originally Posted by Genz

No
FFXI monsters have TP like players, so they use skill depending on their TP gain, and choose at random.
There are some scripted gimmick for some boss, and some boss have a general scripted guideline (Odin for example has a skill at 75%/50%/25% HP, another skill every 10%, the Valkyries spawn at random 10% thresholds, and Zantetsuken at 10% ; this is the most scripted fight I remember, and of course he uses other skills/spells freely outside this general framework)

In the end, even without the scripted part, "knowledge" is as important as FFXIV but it's not "The boss will use skill A then B then C", it's "The boss can use skills A, B and C"

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I somehow skimmed past that part of their post when I first read it but I think you're right to point it out, if either game is going to be accused of being scripted it's 14. In 14 being good at end game is all about learning the fight, usually by rote. In 11 being good at end game is all about preparation in terms of gear and party composition etc... Actual scripted fights in FF11 are very rare and Omen would be my pick of the content with the most predictable mechanics but even then they are only about 30% of the attacks the bosses use. Not only that but because they are so scripted they are tuned to wipe the whole alliance if you don't deal with them.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

Every fight in FFXI is scripted though, heavily. You have timers for every skill any boss will use, timers for each mobs spawning. Why you knew how many stuns to bring, what skills to use when etc. And you had plenty of time to do it as well, since the fights were extremely slow. FFXI is just knowing the scripted fight, just like FFXIV. The difference is, FFXI you wait to use that skill on a timer, FFXIV relies on player skill to know when to build and keep their rotation while avoiding damage, swapping targets, interrupting and then rely on you knowing how to get back into proper position and rotation again after doing all that, for all types of jobs.

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I've always fund 14 to be much easier than 11 in every single aspect. Down to the "one size fits all" approach to battles. In XI you had to actually prepare for fights with different gear sets, food, items etc; even just for regular exp parties! I know that you typically use food for savage runs but it's not necessary whereas in XI, unless you ate Sushi, you were absolutely NOT landing a hit on any THF mob with a haste build. Both games fights were scripted but XI offered more randomness such as wiping to Fafnir due to Spike Flail etc.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

I've always fund 14 to be much easier than 11 in every single aspect. Down to the "one size fits all" approach to battles. In XI you had to actually prepare for fights with different gear sets, food, items etc; even just for regular exp parties! I know that you typically use food for savage runs but it's not necessary whereas in XI, unless you ate Sushi, you were absolutely NOT landing a hit on any THF mob with a haste build. Both games fights were scripted but XI offered more randomness such as wiping to Fafnir due to Spike Flail etc.

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With the trusts, you don't even need the XP parties you had to be in, in the past. Not that I've seen at least for how FFXI is now versus how it used to be. The purposely, and rightfully nerfed it greatly. No more needing to group up to even kill a level 15 normal mob etc.

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Originally Posted by Genz

No
FFXI monsters have TP like players, so they use skill depending on their TP gain, and choose at random.
There are some scripted gimmick for some boss, and some boss have a general scripted guideline (Odin for example has a skill at 75%/50%/25% HP, another skill every 10%, the Valkyries spawn at random 10% thresholds, and Zantetsuken at 10% ; this is the most scripted fight I remember, and of course he uses other skills/spells freely outside this general framework)

In the end, even without the scripted part, "knowledge" is as important as FFXIV but it's not "The boss will use skill A then B then C", it's "The boss can use skills A, B and C"

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Ya, and you knew what skills were going to happen. There is no pure randomness. It's scripted, like any other game. Once condition reaches this, TP in this case, use Skill from this Set. With a weight on what skill to use based on %. You knew, what could come, and with how slow the game plays, you can't possibly miss it.

While I absolutely love FF11 subjobs (still hoping for a classic server), FF14 jobs are so self-contained that I don't think it would work. While in FF11 white magic is a classification of specific spells that certain jobs/subjobs have access to, what is white magic in FF14? Theoretically, both FF14 white mage and red mage use it, but it's really very self-contained to those jobs and not something you can easily sub in.

I do agree that there can be a thing of too much balance. FF14 can often feel very clinical and dry because of it, in my opinion.

Interestingly, FF11 was a much easier and enjoyable experience for my wife who had never played an MMO before. For someone who doesn't have the gamer instinct, the amount of buttons in FF14 can be stressful. In FF11, she would just smack things with her greataxe and had tons of relaxing fun. Because of this I actually consider FF11 to be more casual friendly in many regards, where I would have said FF14 before.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

"They don't make 'em like they used to!" Yeah, there's a good reason for that (see also, 1.0.) FFXI was an absolutely fantastic game for it's time, but that time was 18 years ago. Games and players have both moved on since then.

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Umm theres still alot of people who prefer ffxi over ffxiv, not everyone likes or loves XIV, so please don't paint a picture that xiv is this glorified holy game when it isnt, also FFXI is getting new players/returning players all the time. FFXI has a good/ consistent community just not as big as ffxiv


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/commen...ink_i_finally/

Some people have their reasons like this person, sometimes its health reasons:

"But the thing that really makes me prefer this over FF14 is the slowness of the battle system. I only have one useable hand and doing a rotation while constantly on the move can put a huge strain on my left hand. Since this game doesn't require so much movement in combat its easier for me to concentrate on my role without having to worry about all those complex mechanics that require fast reflexes."

I already started my reason, people just like a WoW style game, notthing wrong with that

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Originally Posted by Genz

No
FFXI monsters have TP like players, so they use skill depending on their TP gain, and choose at random.
There are some scripted gimmick for some boss, and some boss have a general scripted guideline (Odin for example has a skill at 75%/50%/25% HP, another skill every 10%, the Valkyries spawn at random 10% thresholds, and Zantetsuken at 10% ; this is the most scripted fight I remember, and of course he uses other skills/spells freely outside this general framework)

In the end, even without the scripted part, "knowledge" is as important as FFXIV but it's not "The boss will use skill A then B then C", it's "The boss can use skills A, B and C"

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Lol Komarimono says she has played it but doesn't know how bosses even work, i wonder how far shes gotten and attacking me that ffxi fights are script

And some people love station wagons, but they were phased out in favor of minivans and SUVs for a reason. There will always be some number of people who like a thing, but if that number isn't big enough to support the product, the product doesn't get made.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

And some people love station wagons, but they were phased out in favor of minivans and SUVs for a reason. There will always be some number of people who like a thing, but if that number isn't big enough to support the product, the product doesn't get made.

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They have announced something big for FFXI 20th aniversry and Nexon was working on FFXI R, but unfortunately its cancelled because it wasn't up to par with what SE wanted. So hopefully for a FFXI remake with unreal engine.

And FFXI does have a strong support, very strong support, it still makes decent money for SE and yoshi P said that FFXI servers will not be closing down anytime soon and has plans for FFXI ...so yeah

And some people just like a depth battle system and not some WoW clone that was made almost 10 years ago

Different strokes for different folks

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

They have announced something big for FFXI 20th aniversry and Nexon was working on FFXI R, but unfortunately its cancelled because it wasn't up to par with what SE wanted. So hopefully for a FFXI remake with unreal engine.

And FFXI does have a strong support, very strong support, it still makes decent money for SE and yoshi P said that FFXI servers will not be closing down anytime soon and has plans for FFXI ...so yeah

And some people just like a depth battle system and not some WoW clone that was made almost 10 years ago

Different strokes for different folks

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In that case, why are we trying to change XIV into xi-2?

If the games are still running in parallel, wouldn't that be rather silly?

You'd drive off the people who like XIV, and keep only those die hard Xi fans who still play Xi.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

In that case, why are we trying to change XIV into xi-2?

If the games are still running in parallel, wouldn't that be rather silly?

You'd drive off the people who like XIV, and keep only those die hard Xi fans who still play Xi.

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This. FFXIV is FFXIV. Not everyone is going to like it. Unironically, go play FFXI if you enjoy FFXI more. FFXIV will never be FFXI, they're not going to do some radical gameplay shift this late into the game's cycle or implement features that up-end closing in on a decade's worth of battle design.

Also yes, while FFXI is still making money for Square, I would haphazard a guess that it's a mere tiny % of the amount FFXIV makes for them; for good reason. Even the greater video game industry as a whole has shown immense shift away from slow gameplay systems and more towards action based combat. Not even just in game design, but in which games are actually successful; no doubt when FF17 or whichever is the next FF MMO arrives, it will emulate the titanic success that was FFXIV, and continue to stay as far as away from FFXI as possible.

FFXI had its time; and that time was over a decade & a half ago.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

And FFXI does have a strong support, very strong support, it still makes decent money for SE and yoshi P said that FFXI servers will not be closing down anytime soon and has plans for FFXI ...so yeah

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I'm not denying that XI has a dedicated fan base, but the fact that people still play and it still gets updates doesn't change the fact that it's an old and outdated product. XI only exists today because it was made almost 20 years ago. Anyone designing a game like that in today's market is doomed to failure (see again, 1.0)

Oohh looks like i hurt the hardcore ffxiv fan boys,

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

whichever is the next FF MMO arrives, it will emulate the titanic success that was FFXIV, and continue to stay as far as away from FFXI as possible.

FFXI had its time; and that time was over a decade & a half ago.

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Ohh please no, I really hope the next MMO will stay away from XIV and be its own thing like how FFXI is its own thing from XIV. If they want FFXIV, let them stay on that platform thats 10 years old already.

FFXI was highly successful but people didnt want a ffxi 1.0 and i would highly doubt they would want a FFXIV 3.0 on the future MMO, it will push people away

Oh and also SE MMO division ( FFXI, FFXIV and DQ online together ) only makes a significant of the money coming in, They make more money on their mobile titles than XIV alone ever could, of they want, they could just get rid on their MMO divison and still be financially good thanks to their mobile income

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...414-162254.png

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

With the trusts, you don't even need the XP parties you had to be in, in the past. Not that I've seen at least for how FFXI is now versus how it used to be. The purposely, and rightfully nerfed it greatly. No more needing to group up to even kill a level 15 normal mob etc.



Ya, and you knew what skills were going to happen. There is no pure randomness. It's scripted, like any other game. Once condition reaches this, TP in this case, use Skill from this Set. With a weight on what skill to use based on %. You knew, what could come, and with how slow the game plays, you can't possibly miss it.

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While 11 even at its fastest isnt as fast or manic as 14, there are loads of fights, especially at current end game that are full zergs. Its a simple gameplay loop for the fight but the skill and effort went into set up rather than execution. Even with that said, A DD with a good set would still be popping abilities off every 3-4 seconds in a zerg. So its not that slow.

For tanks and healers though, enmity can be difficult to impossible to hold depending on the content and group and they still have mitigation to do and adds to deal with, this is especially tricky for tanks trying to be aggressive. Healers have a plethora of buffs and debuffs to deal with before the healing even starts.

There is so much more to think about and manage that the game doesn't feel slow once the difficulty cranks up. Both games have a different flavour and style, both games are engaging and difficult in the harder content.

For the record I dont want to turn 14 into 11-2, so I'd say no to sub jobs. There are some aspects of 11 though that are better than 14, its ok to acknowledge that.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

FFXI was highly successful but people didnt want a ffxi 1.0 and i would highly doubt they would want a FFXIV 3.0 on the future MMO, it will push people away

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You mean Heavensward??

One good way to explore the issue with subjobs is to look at RPG theorycrafting in general and how it evaluates different build options.

Optimal Vs Non-optimal is a really binary way to look at it. It is actually a gradiant from 'optimal' to 'suboptimal but viable' to 'non-viable.' For example, for a long time Samurai was suboptimal but viable, you didn't really want a Samurai in Stormblood, but having one wasn't gunna wreck your party for most content.

XIV works really hard to make sure everyone is in the 'viable' category. But there are also sub-divisions in that category. For example, "Ice Mages" are viable in most content, but so sub-optimal it drags the experience for everyone else. Heck, technically you can clear most content with the DPS doing literally nothing.

The issue with 'Subjob' systems ala XI or say... PSO2 is that they tend to not really encourage creativity, but instead create a system where you take buffs to the primary job. You see this a lot in P&P RPGs that have multiclassing too: It is hard to synthesize the advantages of say... being a monk and being a wizard in D&D without a specialized seperate class dedicated too it. It is too easy for a given job+subjob combo to be thematic but terrible. Ever see a Summoner-Techer in PSO2? Sounds cool, your a wizard who summons things and heals and buffs your party but in reality it is the very non-thematic Summoner-Fighter all day every day to get those generic attack boosts for your pet.

This is why games that allow creative builds tend to be way more open ended. PoE comes to mind as a game with a strong diverse build community with lots of competitive and viable options. This is because it creates a lot of 'fuzzieness' around what is optimal, based on what you value, your gear access, how early in the expansion your making that build, ect. That would be VERY hard to get into XIV, most of the time you would just take a subjob with a self buff that synergizes with your class, and while its possible a sub-optimal combo wouldn't make people kick you out of casual content it probably just wouldn't be as interesting as you think. That isn't to say its impossible, but it would be a design nightmare.

Subjob systems just sorta 'default' to wanting to have the secondary job purely exist to support the first, rather than being a creative synthesis. Breaking free of that is legitimately very hard.

I think the closest we could get would be 'alt jobs' like say... Healer RDM, or DPS DRK: Same job but its core rotation altered in goal, but with what they said about SMN and SCH I highly doubt that will ever happen.

Just you watch the same people who are asking for customization, if it is ever given they will blindly follow the meta and demand everyone else does the same else they get kicked.

I am one of the few people that can genuinely ask for customization because I supported covenants in WoW and chose sub optimal covenants that I found fun and still did high m+, that was near the start of SL season where I had that gear advantage and was ahead of most people yet even then there would be elitist tryhards who wouldn’t want your covenant or spec because it isn’t ‘meta’

And because I know that elitist communities in mmorpgs have proven to be completely unable to be independent and become slaves to a meta and start discriminating against others for not being metaslaves as well I am against bringing customization here, the mmorpg community is just not capable of thinking for itself and the high end elitists will always try to push for meta even at low end content.
And it is ironic cuz most of the time when it comes to the real personal performance most metaslaves do worse than people who are good and play non meta, yet they don’t care about that because they see a higher simdps so it must be better and everyone should follow it or they must be bad players.

Another false conclusion of elitists, the idea that if you don’t follow the meta you must be bad which indirectly implies if you do follow the meta blindly you must be a good player lol

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Optimal Vs Non-optimal is a really binary way to look at it. It is actually a gradiant

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I mean you aren’t wrong but you do realize the community you are talking about?

It is one that would take 5% more damage as mandatory and consider everything else non viable. Even if the boss requires a low 70 dps to beat, these people will demand that meta option to get to 105 because 100 isn’t good enough either.

Covenant abilities in WoW are just one per class so for many they aren’t really that impactful by themselves, it could be 100 dps without using them or 104 with using them and people still moaned and acted as if it is the worst thing to happen to them for not being able to flip flop between covenants for that extra 4 dps on the encounter that took advantage of it
(And that 4 is assuming both use the same builds in other shstems, cuz I ve seen content/SIM creators try to exaggerate covenant drama by linking the lowest simming covenant next to the lowest simming build and say ‘oh look, that covenant is so bad I it is so much lower than our top sim covenant’)

You are talking to a community that slowly spreads from high end to the point you see people whining about someone not playing meta at low end content, WoW is proof of that, they let metaslave and elitists run rampart so now the game is extremely unfriendly to anyone who doesn’t play the ‘meta’ build even if that person in actual encounters is doing better than all those metaslaves.