Do the Scions know? (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Even Ryne is unclear - I don't think that it was ever stated that the girls "gifted" by Minfillia were Minfillia's soul-shard counterparts. They could have been randomly-selected girls, for all we know.

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To be fair, my speculation comes from Emet-Selch's statement that Ryne was a "reincarnation", which would only make sense if she was a reincarnation of someone relevant, ie shared the soul. This soul could be Minfilia's, or it could be the same soul as all the other Oracles Of Light before her that our Minfilia had chosen a century ago.

(This being Emet-Selch, he said she was an "underwhelming reincarnation", but the point stands.)

Hence, my statement about Ryne not being defined by her soul still applies, since we know from Moren's history lessons that the previous Minfilias were all different.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

If not for the fact that we had an interview expressly warning us not to assume that "meeting similar people" does not equal "these people have shared souls", I might have even been agreeing with you.

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I remember the statement that we'd be meeting lookalikes, but I don't remember the "express warning" that it meant nothing.

I remember dreading that it meant we'd be seeing doppelgangers all over the place and/or they'd play alt-Haurchefant for drama or something, so I can't have got a strong impression that doubles aren't meant to share souls. (I was relieved when it turned out to be just those few characters that made sense to be doubles as a sort of shorthand for their role.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I remember the statement that we'd be meeting lookalikes, but I don't remember the "express warning" that it meant nothing.

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Perhaps "express warning" was too strong a way to put it. I was unfortunately not able to find the specific interview, but I do pretty clearly remember the article mentioning that similar face/profession does not automatically mean there's a shared soul present.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

All they said was that characters being similar does not "necessarily" mean they have the same souls. That doesn't mean similarities aren't evidence towards sharing souls. I'll also note that developer statements haven't exactly always been the most reliable things in the world. "Ending the Garlean Empire Once and For All" in the fanfest prior to Shadowbringers springs to mind here, or Yoshi's statements about FC and private housing totally being different, and more besides. Basically it was just to give them some flexibility and not have to directly address the issue.

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I have never claimed that these people CANNOT have shared souls, simply that we cannot take their similarities as decisive evidence that they do. This whole sub-conversation began because you put forth Mowen, Grenoldt, and Taynor as evidence for the soul shaping the person, listed them as people "we know to be shards of each other", and I wanted to point out that no, we don't know that they are, and in fact, that there is only one shared soul out there that is confirmed. That's it.

They might be shared souls. They might not be. It may never be revealed for certain one way or another (and probably won't). As you say, the element of doubt was put forth in the interview in order to retain flexibility for the future; they don't want to commit to anything they might regret later. But the bottom line, is that you can't base an argument on the assumption that they are, when we simply do not know.

Of course, the one confirmed example we DO have is a pretty strong argument FOR your theory.

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I have never claimed that these people CANNOT have shared souls, simply that we cannot take their similarities as decisive evidence that they do.

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Occam's Razor would suggest that when we look at two people from different shards which share many (In some cases practically all) notable traits, we should assume this is a result of them sharing a soul. Narratively, in the case of Taynor and Unukalhai, it wouldn't make any sense to make them similar in physicality and aptitude, draw attention to a strange sense of familiarity between them, and highlight the dilemma of Unukalhai going bodiless on the First only to have it turn out they're not connected.

And as you say, the primary example we have of a sharded soul, WoL's, is probably already more than enough evidence to show that one's soul is important in defining who they are.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Occam's Razor would suggest that when we look at two people from different shards which share many (In some cases practically all) notable traits, we should assume this is a result of them sharing a soul. Narratively, in the case of Taynor and Unukalhai, it wouldn't make any sense to make them similar in physicality and aptitude, draw attention to a strange sense of familiarity between them, and highlight the dilemma of Unukalhai going bodiless on the First only to have it turn out they're not connected.

And as you say, the primary example we have of a sharded soul, WoL's, is probably already more than enough evidence to show that one's soul is important in defining who they are.

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I thought the hints in the new role/void quests hinted more towards Unukalhai being a fragment of the soul shared with Nyelbert. I know for the longest time we presumed he was a part of our soul, but Taynor seemed to suggest he felt familiar like an old friend. Plus even taking his "shortcut" Unukalhai was told he picked up the void technique surprisingly quickly.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I thought the hints in the new role/void quests hinted more towards Unukalhai being a fragment of the soul shared with Nyelbert. I know for the longest time we presumed he was a part of our soul, but Taynor seemed to suggest he felt familiar like an old friend. Plus even taking his "shortcut" Unukalhai was told he picked up the void technique surprisingly quickly.

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Unukalhai specifically notes his and Taynor's physical similarities and that they have equivalent and compatible aether. Taynor describes him as "feeling like an old friend", but then you would feel that way about your own soul, wouldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Unukalhai specifically notes his and Taynor's physical similarities and that they have equivalent and compatible aether. Taynor describes him as "feeling like an old friend", but then you would feel that way about your own soul, wouldn't you?

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Unless the perosn actually is "an old friend" in a different body. I read the story as Unukalhai is a fragment of Nyelbert. And their physical similarities and age were more of Taynor and Unukalhai/Nyelbert finally catching up on even ground after all the time, and distance, and worlds that have seperated them.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Unless the perosn actually is "an old friend" in a different body. I read the story as Unukalhai is a fragment of Nyelbert. And their physical similarities and age were more of Taynor and Unukalhai/Nyelbert finally catching up on even ground after all the time, and distance, and worlds that have seperated them.

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That doesn't really explain the instant attunement of their aether or why they broached the problem of Unukalhai being bodiless. It seems to me to be a clear setup for them to be rejoined in the future.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

That doesn't really explain the instant attunement of their aether or why they broached the problem of Unukalhai being bodiless. It seems to me to be a clear setup for them to be rejoined in the future.

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The instant attunement would be because of the shortcut Unukalhai took, which was stated that he still picked it up fast even with the shortcut. Also, him being "bodiless" wouldn't be as much of a hindrance as one would think, given the information we've gained from Shadowbringers, and about how Unukalhai and Cyella escaped the Thirteenth.

Also the physical similarities was most likely mentioned because the two individuals performing the technique need to be of equal standing to perform it correctly. Sorta like how people are divided for sports based on their physicality.

While I'm all for assessing the possibilities that people who share the same physical appearance might be shards of the same soul, the immediate disproof that this is the case is your Warrior of Light and Ardbert.

There is no correlation between the known cases of 'soul shards' and physiognomy, nor are the life experiences of people we see on the First in any way comparable to those of people with similar physiognomy on the Source.

OK, so...

Given the only mention of Azem's name (title) comes from Emet-Selch's dedication embedded in their memory crystal, and the only person who heard it was us, for anyone else to know Azem's name / title we'd have to be the one to tell them until it becomes common knowledge (though I doubt that'll ever happen). So... inference, but yes, we are the one who told the Scions.

As for Emet-Selch mentioning that Ryne is an "underwhelming reincarnation [of Minfilia]," that's implied to be because he hadn't worked out that Ryne was not a reincarnation of Minfilia despite possessing (some of) the Oracle's power(s). At the very least, no conclusive evidence that Ryne is a shard counterpart to Minfilia has been given; she doesn't appear to have the Echo, didn't awaken it during the starshowers of 5.3, is only immune to tempering thanks to Minfilia's presence and/or Hydaelyn's blessing (re: placebo tempering), and hasn't ever heard Hydaelyn's voice. Oracle or no...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As for Emet-Selch mentioning that Ryne is an "underwhelming reincarnation [of Minfilia]," that's implied to be because he hadn't worked out that Ryne was not a reincarnation of Minfilia despite possessing (some of) the Oracle's power(s). At the very least, no conclusive evidence that Ryne is a shard counterpart to Minfilia has been given; she doesn't appear to have the Echo, didn't awaken it during the starshowers of 5.3, is only immune to tempering thanks to Minfilia's presence and/or Hydaelyn's blessing (re: placebo tempering), and hasn't ever heard Hydaelyn's voice. Oracle or no...

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I get why people want to see Minfilia and Ryne as sharing souls or being clones, but I really feel like Shadowbringers was suppose to make you look at Ryne as Minfilia's daughter, not her doppelganger. Yes Ryne has the oracle powers she inherited, but she also doesn't have the echo, nor does she look like Minfilia (vaguely at best), and she clearly is a separate soul. Then when you have the Thancred's second chance at fatherhood plot thread, I feel this was the intended way to look at Ryne--a Minfilia offspring.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

That doesn't really explain the instant attunement of their aether or why they broached the problem of Unukalhai being bodiless. It seems to me to be a clear setup for them to be rejoined in the future.

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No it continues to follow through that Unukalhai is Nylbert because both became candidates for their shards WOL. Unukalhai and Taynor attune easily because of the history of Taynor and Nylbert and how they used to work together before Nylbert became a WOL and Taynor was lost in the rift.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

No it continues to follow through that Unukalhai is Nylbert because both became candidates for their shards WOL. Unukalhai and Taynor attune easily because of the history of Taynor and Nylbert and how they used to work together before Nylbert became a WOL and Taynor was lost in the rift.

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I don't know, "Your breath is my breath, your aether is my aether" is kind of on-the-nose.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I don't know, "Your breath is my breath, your aether is my aether" is kind of on-the-nose.

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Taynor didn't awaken the Echo during the 5.3 starshowers, Unulkalhai has it. They are both 1/14 soul shards. If Taynor was a shard of the same soul, he'd have awakened to the ability. Therefore, different souls.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Taynor didn't awaken the Echo during the 5.3 starshowers, Unulkalhai has it. They are both 1/14 soul shards. If Taynor was a shard of the same soul, he'd have awakened to the ability. Therefore, different souls.

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There's really no consistency or hard rules regarding the Echo and awakening it, or anything saying that the same soul will always gain the Echo.

Also even if they're both "1/14" there's actually reason to believe that all shards are not created equal, as with the description we're given of Hydaelyn's power to sunder things it's actually dividing things in half. This would mean the First, as the first shard sundered from the Source, actually has half the aetherial density of the unsundered world, while the Thirteenth, being the last sundered shard, would have like 0.001% the density of the original. The point here is that assuming them to be exactly equivalent is debatable.

That's actually a good point. Looking back over the Caster DPS Role Quests, Taynor reacts with surprise at the WoL's Echo flashback. And given the timeline of events, he probably had zero opportunity to awaken to the Echo in his lifetime up to that point. The end of 5.2 was the earliest he could have awakened to the Echo, and if you "chose" him as the person who approached your room at the end of the quest Echoes of a Fallen Star, he is entirely focused on Ardbert and doesn't mention the Echo at all. Nor does he demonstrate or suggest he's awakened to it at any point after that.

It could be that the writers haven't decided that possessing the Echo is a requirement for two sundered souls to be shards of the same original soul. Which is kind of daft, but hey, it's their story. Or it could be that Unukalhai really is a shard of Nyelbert, not Taynor. The latter seems more likely than the former.

Keep in mind that the spells they were casting that required them to be perfectly in sync were spells Taynor was trained, from birth, to cast alongside Nyelbert. Not a copy of himself. If Nyelbert and Taynor were able to do so together, then Unukalhai learning to do so is not necessarily proof that he and Taynor share the same original soul.

If everyone is a sundered Ancient and all Ancients had the Echo (or the ability that it is a remnant of) then everyone should have the potential to awaken to it when triggered to remember. They just don't for some reason, whether it's personality or mindset or arbitrary aetherial physics.

Perhaps they do not react to the trigger if they died before the calamity and did not witness it?

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I get why people want to see Minfilia and Ryne as sharing souls or being clones, but I really feel like Shadowbringers was suppose to make you look at Ryne as Minfilia's daughter, not her doppelganger. Yes Ryne has the oracle powers she inherited, but she also doesn't have the echo, nor does she look like Minfilia (vaguely at best), and she clearly is a separate soul. Then when you have the Thancred's second chance at fatherhood plot thread, I feel this was the intended way to look at Ryne--a Minfilia offspring.

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That's how I view it. The analogy I used in another thread was exactly that. Thancred felt the loss of his sister/surrogate daughter and couldn't seperate the feelings he had for the original Minfilia from his budding feeling/obligation towards Ryne his niece/new surrogate daughter. While it's easy to say we love our family members, how our relationships connect with one another determine our feelings towards them. I used this example because it happened to me irl, my sister isn't "gone" per se, she's just not a good person; and seeing my nephew reminded me too much of her, it was painful, but it wasn't my nephew's fault. But separating my feelings was difficult at times, because, it goes without saying, that children are a reminder of their parents.

It's similar to a reddit post I saw once, where someone said they loved Lyse's character because they literally lived their life like that for a time. Art imitates life indeed.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I don't know, "Your breath is my breath, your aether is my aether" is kind of on-the-nose.

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I'm pretty sure that's just a common way of saying we act as one, not hinting that they are one. Kinda like calling someone your shield or your sword, they aren't literally... unless it's an anime, then who knows, lol.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I don't know, "Your breath is my breath, your aether is my aether" is kind of on-the-nose.

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Sounds almost like a marriage proposal.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Also even if they're both "1/14" there's actually reason to believe that all shards are not created equal, as with the description we're given of Hydaelyn's power to sunder things it's actually dividing things in half. This would mean the First, as the first shard sundered from the Source, actually has half the aetherial density of the unsundered world, while the Thirteenth, being the last sundered shard, would have like 0.001% the density of the original. The point here is that assuming them to be exactly equivalent is debatable.

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Explaining the mathematics behind the sundering of shards has been a time-honored pursuit of methodologies behind the "Hydaelyn Complex" conspiracy since the Moogles left their homeland during what we now know as "the Great Blowing". Unfortunately, empirical evidence of that Event is only provided by the number of papers written about the conjectured aetherial density differences between "Shards", whatever those may be. In this work, I will attempt to prove that one of fourteen is, indeed, 1/14.

- Daneel Than, The Mathematics of Wind, Eorzean Press, 1577.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I don't know, "Your breath is my breath, your aether is my aether" is kind of on-the-nose.

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Idk, I took that this line to mean a more romantic inclination. Actually, it would be kinda cute, if and when they meet Ryne and Gaia they are motivated to act on their feelings.

It just sounds like an incantation to me, or perhaps a sort of meditative thing as they prepare to cast the spell, since they need to be in sync with each other.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

This is true. It is unclear if Ryne is/was another part of Minfilia's soul, or if it was just Minfilia using her "Ascian-like" powers to control random girls, in limited capacity. Based on the clues we are given, Ryne being a part of Minfilia's soul makes the most sense, since Minfilia said, one of them would cease to exist; and we know that once Ardbert merged with us he ceased to exist as an individual. Plus it stands to reason that controlling a part of yourself is easier than controlling someone else. There is also the fact that Ryne has become the new "soul jar". Though how that would function with her on the first is unknown. Hopefully, that means she'll come to the source, I would love to see F'lhaminn fawn all over her.

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That's actually a common misconception based on a "mis-localization" I will call it for a lack of a better word. In Japanese, there is no such thing as a "Paragon of the Source" as its called and the reason I bring this up is, because its stated that any soul shard can be alive while others are "dead" or "rejoined" meaning that a soul doesn't necessarily have to be returned to the soul of the Source. If, for example, Fandaniel died while on the Source his soul on the First continues on and his soul on the First could contain the soul that was on the Source. It's never explicitly stated in Japanese that the Source's soul becomes host to all the other shards after they become rejoined, the only reason this is the only outcome we have seen in game until Shadowbringers is because the rejoinings obviously return the shard to the Source, but its not the only viable outcome. A soul on the 13th, for example, could contain all other shards including the soul of the Source on that reflection if circumstances dictated it just like if you wanna believe that Ryne was a shard of whoever Minifila was as an Ancient. Hope that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by AnthonyMorningstar

its stated that any soul shard can be alive while others are "dead" or "rejoined" meaning that a soul doesn't necessarily have to be returned to the soul of the Source.

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Alive and dead has nothing to do with the soul returning to their Source counterpart. The only thing that causes that is a rejoining.

The rest of the time, at least as we currently understand it, the soul shard just returns to that world-shard's aetherial sea to be reborn in that world again.

Some of a particular soul's shards might be alive at the same time others are dead and in the aetherial sea waiting to be reborn, but it's still one shard per world and they don't mix at any point.

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Originally Posted by AnthonyMorningstar

If, for example, Fandaniel died while on the Source his soul on the First continues on and his soul on the First could contain the soul that was on the Source.

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No it doesn't. Source-Fandaniel has died and his soul (being 8/14 of the original, as with everything in the Source) goes to the Source's aetherial sea. His First counterpart is completely unaffected.

If soul shards rejoined upon death, their sundering would be resolved within a few generations.

The only reason Ryne hypothetically might have become the "container" for a semi-rejoined soul is because Minfilia has brought her 8/14 shards from the Source into the First. So IF they were the same soul, Ryne has received those extra pieces by unnatural means with no relation to the usual cycle of souls. Her now-9/14 soul would continue to cycle through the First's aetherial sea upon death but would not receive any further shards.

In any case the speculation on that particular example seems to have been rendered irrelevant by Endwalker. Hydaelyn says she returned Minfilia's soul to the Source's aetherial sea, indicating that she is separate from the still-living Ryne.

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Originally Posted by AnthonyMorningstar

It's never explicitly stated in Japanese that the Source's soul becomes host to all the other shards after they become rejoined, the only reason this is the only outcome we have seen in game until Shadowbringers is because the rejoinings obviously return the shard to the Source, but its not the only viable outcome.

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We are explicitly told that all of the aether in a shard is rejoined to the Source upon the event of a Rejoining. We are explicitly told that we are "seven times rejoined". We are explicitly told how rejoinings work, complete with nifty PowerPoint presentation from the Exarch.

And if you don't agree with me, or think it's just the English version making that claim, then you can take it from the 2019 lore Q&A with Yoshida and head lore writer Banri Oda:

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4. Emet-Selch remarks that we are of the Source, "seven times rejoined". Is he talking about our soul, or only the world? If our soul has been rejoined, does that mean everyone on the Source has been rejoined to another soul-fragment each Calamity, or are we (and perhaps other specific characters) special in some way?

Oda: Each time there is a rejoining, any living things have the souls rejoined. This is true for everyone equally. The souls get more dense, and potentially more powerful.

Yoshida: The Rejoining isn't just for the characters, but for the whole world. Of course, this does apply to yourself, as well.

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Even if a rejoining of two shards rather than Source and shard is possible, the Ascians are not trying to do so, and that still would not draw in any more soul shards than the two involved in the event.

There is something to be said about bumping a year old thread with wrong information. But whatever. Neat to see this thread back up.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

In any case the speculation on that particular example seems to have been rendered irrelevant by Endwalker. Hydaelyn says she returned Minfilia's soul to the Source's aetherial sea, indicating that she is separate from the still-living Ryne.

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I don't know whether to feel vindicated because I called it, irritated that this feels like a retcon just to enable her cameo appearance in the Aitiascope, overjoyed because it opens up the possibility of her revival, or confused because Endwalker also strongly implied that Ryne really did have the Echo all along without actually saying so before dumping her out of the story altogether, followed by Hydaelyn/Venat being killed without ever so much as acknowledging her existence. I wonder if the devs will make that have consequences for her, since her Blessing seemed a cut above even our own—which was itself vague in its powers until Endwalker went "no it's just a magic shield that does what you thought the Echo did all along".

Shoot, Gaia's power came from Zodiark, too. I wonder if they'll both end up depowered, or if they'll keep their powers and have some explanation for that.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

this feels like a retcon just to enable her cameo appearance in the Aitiascope

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On the other hand, it does let Hydaelyn say-without-saying that she also brought Emet's soul back at the same time.

But yes, the whole situation with Ryne is very muddled and they need to explain it clearly at some point. The next lore Q&A opportunity should be interesting.

Gaia seemed a mess even within the Eden plot though. She's supposedly the Oracle of Darkness, equal and opposite to Ryne, directly powered by some sliver of Zodiark... except no wait she isn't the single chosen one at all, she's "just" one of the sundered Ascians, who has Ascian powers even without being properly raised to her seat, and the "fairy" in her mind is Mitron rather than Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On the other hand, it does let Hydaelyn say-without-saying that she also brought Emet's soul back at the same time.

But yes, the whole situation with Ryne is very muddled and they need to explain it clearly at some point. The next lore Q&A opportunity should be interesting.

Gaia seemed a mess even within the Eden plot though. She's supposedly the Oracle of Darkness, equal and opposite to Ryne, directly powered by some sliver of Zodiark... except no wait she isn't the single chosen one at all, she's "just" one of the sundered Ascians, who has Ascian powers even without being properly raised to her seat, and the "fairy" in her mind is Mitron rather than Zodiark.

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Kinda, Venat says in the same breath that she, "also brought back another soul who may prove useful to your quest." Which we now know concretely was Emet.

As for Gaia being special, I think there was still the line about how she was supposed to be the heart for Zodiark, but they changed it to Elidibus for an unexplained reason (now likely to follow through with time paradox shenanigans which is an inverted irony of sorts since Gaia seems to have time manipulation powers on her own).

Another sort of ironic thing is that Ryne is supposed to be important, but winds up unimportant now. Turns out she was given a Traveler's Ward that imparts soul sight or something rather banal compared to being a vessel for Hydaelyn's power or whatever. Course, I guess it probably comes off that way, because that's the powers that were retained after they were mostly used up stopping the flood and reincarnating a half dozen times by Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

irritated that this feels like a retcon just to enable her cameo appearance in the Aitiascope,

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Same. In ShB the setup was clearly that Minfilia and Ryne were to be rejoined and that only one of them would remain the "true self" afterwards with the other being subsumed into the soul. Emet, the guy that can see souls, even calls Ryne a reincarnation and says the conflict is about them "becoming one, body and soul". That's about as explicit as it gets, but now apparently Minfilia just dumped her Blessing of Light on Ryne and got yoinked back to the Source so she can show up for some cheap nostalgia for a few minutes? Meanwhile Ryne only gets an unvoiced cameo.

In fact, based on what she says at that time, about Hydaelyn's presence feeling distant, then close, then distant again, then feeling like her connection to her was severed, it makes me wonder if Minfilia's soul was joined with Ryne, and then Hydaelyn just took it back.

In all honesty, I almost missed the Minfilia cameo with how subdued it was.