Elemental Wheel, What's the point?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, I don't mean "like <insert unrelated irrelevant stuff from ANOTHER GAME here>" What are you talking about?

Alright then. Let's remove all but three classes from the game, and name them "tank", "healer" and "DPS." Or, we can keep the uniqueness and distincitveness of each class, and make party formation less of a mindlessly simple endeavor. Like how archers do damage from the back and are more vulnerable and lancers are closer up and a little sturdier.

If you want a simple game, go find a simple game, while the rest of us who like a deep class system where every class has its own strengths and weaknesses can keep it.

now this is a more meaningful post, which explains the problem they see and identifies what needs to be fixed.

The game can be balanced without making all classes the same, removing elements or taking any kind of wild mechanic-destroying action. Instead, the actual balance problems need to be addressed.

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Have you ever played anything besides XI if you have you would know there are 100's of ways to make classes feel different w/o an elemental wheel.

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Have you ever played anything besides XI if you have you would know there are 100's of ways to make classes feel different w/o an elemental wheel.

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there are 100s of ways to make classes feel different, sure. But there's nothing wrong with an elemental wheel. You're proposing to take a system that's not broken and stomp all over it because you personally don't like it, not because it's a bad system.

Hundreds of games have had elemental systems and worked just fine and dandy. Elements are not a defective concept.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Alright then. Let's remove all but three classes from the game, and name them "tank", "healer" and "DPS." Or, we can keep the uniqueness and distincitveness of each class, and make party formation less of a mindlessly simple endeavor.

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Now I'm getting the feeling you're purposely trying to ignore the point of my posts.

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Like how archers do damage from the back and are more vulnerable and lancers are closer up and a little sturdier.

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This makes sense. And also has nothing to do with the conversation.

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If you want a simple game, go find a simple game, while the rest of us who like a deep class system where every class has its own strengths and weaknesses can keep it.

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It's not about simplicity, but inclusiveness. FFXI taught me that designing content to be exclusive to tier 1 and leaving everyone else out in the cold was a bad idea. I feel bad for all the people who liked PUP, BST and the other jobs that were never seen as fit for events and endgame. That's a philosophy that should not carry over to this game.

By the way, the ability to switch classes is not an excuse, as those who want to level every class to cap and gear them will still do so. There are people naturally inclined to do that sort of thing, you know.

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The only reason you were ever on the "wrong job" was because of balance issues. These balance issues have nothing to do with elements- just because this or that thing was too strong or not strong enough and SE took forever to address those kinds of problems.

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So why would we want to facilitate said balance issues making a reemmergence? FFXI prioritized "uniqueness" over functionality. Too much of one thing, and the proof is in the pudding.

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FXI taught me that designing content to be exclusive to anyone outside of tier 1 was a bad idea.

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The problem is that you see "tiers." All jobs can and should be on the same "tier." The thing is, it's almost impossible to achieve that level of balance without making everything too similar. The fact is, none of that content you describe was literally excluding any job at all, it was the playerbase that made up "tiers" and made up who could go where. The fact is, you could actually clear most of that content with whatever jobs you wanted, if you found a group of like-and-open-minded people to do it with.

I pretty much slap anyone in FFXI that places each job in a "tier" and don't play with them. I play with linkshell mates and friends who know that the game doesn't actually have to be like that.

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I feel bad for all the people who liked PUP, BST and the other jobs that were never seen as fit for events and endgame.

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Despite the mainstream elitists that made up tiers and declared this and that job "unfit" for endgame, many players like myself went on to prove that endgame was perfectly doable with those jobs.

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That's a philosophy that should not carry over to this game.

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Abiout the only extent to which I see this in the game right now is with BLM vs THM and people preferring THM over BLM because THM can set cure and raise and thus play something other than the role it was *built* for which BLM specifically exists to emphasize. This is mostly a defect carrying over from FFXI where people feel like just because you're a mage you have to be able to cure and raise, even if that has nothing to do with your job's role and the fact that EVERYONE has MP and anyone else could set those abiltiies instead.

I didn't look into this really deeply but the old elemental wheel has changed at some point, apparently making mobs astral or umbral. This would need to be checked better, but it seemed to work for most mobs I have encountered.
Most of them (or all?) are weak to a certain element, get "normal damage" from 2 other elements, and reduced damage from 3 others. An Ixal for example is wind and thus an "astral" mob, he's weak to ice, gets normal damage from earth and water, and gets reduced damage from lightning, fire and wind.
Still, where is the water spell?!

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The problem is that you see "tiers." All jobs can and should be on the same "tier." The thing is, it's almost impossible to achieve that level of balance without making everything too similar. The fact is, none of that content you describe was literally excluding any job at all, it was the playerbase that made up "tiers" and made up who could go where.

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Indeed, and one is fed by the other. Game design and mechanics fed the playerbase's mentality. So game design is responsible for how things turned out. They're not these two entities that are separate from each other.

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The fact is, you could actually clear most of that content with whatever jobs you wanted, if you found a group of like-and-open-minded people to do it with.

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I'm aware of this too, but what I look for is mass acceptance to the point that no one bats an eye at the notion of bringing X class. Going back to WoW, I haven't seen people throw fits over having a Ret paladin or enhance shaman in a group since the burning crusade, where both were intentionally weaker than the "real" damage dealers because the devs believed the asinine notion of such design making them "unique" and how the buffs and utility made up for lacking damage. If you fast forward to now, you'd be very hard pressed to see anyone say anything about a Ret or Enhance being in a group; by the same token, they now perform fairly close if not on the same level as the "real" damage dealers...who still get invited to groups, to boot. I see nothing but winners under that scenario.

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I'm aware of this too, but what I look for is mass acceptance to the point that no one bats an eye at the notion of bringing X class.

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This is what we call pigeon-holeing or cookie-cuttering and it's impossible to eliminate. Even if you achieved perfect balance, some players would see something as better than the others and people would bandwagon onto it. It's a problem that just can't be solved. You can minimize it to an extent the smoother you get the balance, but it will always be there. Just make friends with people who think like you do so you can enjoy the game the way you want to, confident in your knowledge that you can play the content on your favorite job and still win just fine. It's really not worth drastically changing systems to try to solve, because it's not realistically solveable. You will have people bandwagoning, you will have elistists declaring something to be better than another no matter how you design the game.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is what we call pigeon-holeing or cookie-cuttering and it's impossible to eliminate. Even if you achieved perfect balance, some players would see something as better than the others and people would bandwagon onto it. It's a problem that just can't be solved. You can minimize it to an extent the smoother you get the balance, but it will always be there. Just make friends with people who think like you do so you can enjoy the game the way you want to, confident in your knowledge that you can play the content on your favorite job and still win just fine. It's really not worth drastically changing systems to try to solve, because it's not realistically solveable. You will have people bandwagoning, you will have elistists declaring something to be better than another no matter how you design the game.

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You need to look up the late Everquest Online adventures for the PS2. That job balance, and eve class was unique would love to give it's statement.

Wizard had Lightning Fire Ice spells, but also had several none elemental spells. Very powerful high damage. And it's Master class of Sorcerer had unresistable aoes, with short range so I could use a fire spell against any fire based mob as long as the mob wasn't made purely out of fire.

Necromancer- Their pets were the strongest of the petters, but they had very high DoT damage and could even spam heals if they chose the blood pact line for their epic quests. They were DD/Sub-healers. Wizard had to get a big boost because Necros were so strong.

Enchanters- the caster "bards" but it could also have "any" pet. Either beast/human. It also could have a suit of armor to be a tank. It could help regen MP/Hp very well.

Alchemist- Add later into the game, but it was more than welcomed at raids for it's master class called Transmuter which they had a pill called Ogre pill. It gave you a massive Stamina/HP/Strength boost and turned you into an ogre.

Mage- was the real elementalist over wizard, because they got all the elemental spells, and they had elemental pets. They were constantly in 3rd place to Enchanters, because Raging Rhino claimed by an enchanter would just mess crap up. What really pisses me off was this maghe got "Call of the Hero" Something FFXI failed so badly I want to slap them. Call of the Hero had a 5 minute recast, but wasted all MP to teleport one person to ANY location. Doesn't matter where they were, or if they had access, the mage could warp another player to them. FFXI stupid mantle they released after the 3 mini expansions sucked hard.

Cleric-Heavy armor or clothe, hell they could tank if they wanted to, we called them clanks. Their heals were the best and buffs were awesome.

Druid and Shaman- They had buffs that Clerics didn't have, their heals were not a great, but they could transform in wolves or trees to regen MP which could give time for the cleric to heal. Or they could DD.
No job was ever left out of a raid, and these new generation MMOs fail miserably at trying to balance out their job/classes.

One class being good for only one situation, even if you can be all classes, is stupid when you could just balance all the classes.

And no the fights were not strictly tank and spank you had fights like Nagafen, the fire dragon in Sulsek eye where you had to peridocially go behind a rock to avoid lava damage. Or Aurum Vales poison water? Done in Everquest onlien adventures in the Planes of Disease and gas that would infect you greatly reducing your stats to a- on-the-brink level. The only way to get rid of it was to die.

I agree I see no reason for elemental affinity on regular monsters. +1

Give them magic resistance by all means, but just make it one element unless its something like a Flan or Primal.

if there is no elemental wheel, there would be no need for elemental spells .... and wtf guys this is final fantasy ....
there has always been elemental affinity on mosters. and who says blm will have no further spells?

removing elemental wheel is like removing crystals ... itsn ot gonna happen and its not gonna be good without, better try to improve it than removing it

black mages limited to not all elemental spells has nosense.

First, why BLM have to have the same number of spells than a melee skills? that is totally wrong..

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Originally Posted by GinTama

if there is no elemental wheel, there would be no need for elemental spells .... and wtf guys this is final fantasy ....
there has always been elemental affinity on mosters. and who says blm will have no further spells?

removing elemental wheel is like removing crystals ... itsn ot gonna happen and its not gonna be good without, better try to improve it than removing it

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Did yo not read his post ?

He said remove elemental attunement for standard monsters, keep it for elemental creatures such as Bombs, Elementals, Flans and Primals.

Does this not make sense to you ?

After all are any of us as adventurers naturally resistant to one school of magic ? (I'll think you'll find no)

Why is a Marmot strong against earth for example ?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Did yo not read his post ?

He said remove elemental attunement for standard monsters, keep it for elemental creatures such as Bombs, Elementals, Flans and Primals.

Does this not make sense to you ?

After all are any of us as adventurers naturally resistant to one school of magic ? (I'll think you'll find no)

Why is a Marmot strong against earth for example ?

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I'm expecting some retard answer like cuz it walks on dirt.

Delete Elemental Wheel? No Thanks,
Change it? Yes, Please... Earth > Lightning > Water > Fire > Ice > Wind

\o/

The elemental wheel is pretty messed up right now and should be changed, yes.
Removed? That's a dumb idea.
Monsters are resistant to ONE element, every magicbased class is able to use at least TWO elements though.
So let's say the monster is resistant to earth.
As a CNJ, I can just use wind on it.
As a PUG, I can just use fire on it.
And if it is resistant to fire, it won't be resistant to earth so I can use earth instead.
As a THM, I can just use ice or thunder on it.
Where is the problem?o.O

I don't think there will ever be a situation where a single mob is resistant to Ice, Fire AND Thunder all at once. There may be an encounter where certain mobs are immune/resistant to one at most but never all three.

The elemental wheel is a nice touch, however we have no idea what element most enemies are aligned with. This is why we need the Libra/Scan/Bestiary in the game. So that players may be properly informed and can use that knowledge to play skillfully.

Edit: Also the current element wheel, or set of triangles, is fine. It's just different and not obvious so most people hate it.

Fire > Ice > Wind > Fire
Earth > Thunder > Water > Earth

Pretty simple actually, jut a matter of remembering it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

As a THM, I can just use ice or thunder on it.
Where is the problem?o.O

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I laughed.

Remove? No, thanks.
Change? Yes, please.

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Originally Posted by Raistlin

black mages limited to not all elemental spells has nosense.

First, why BLM have to have the same number of spells than a melee skills? that is totally wrong..

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It's not nonsense. They've only used fire ice and thunder in nearly every FF game except 11.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Did yo not read his post ?

He said remove elemental attunement for standard monsters, keep it for elemental creatures such as Bombs, Elementals, Flans and Primals.

Does this not make sense to you ?

After all are any of us as adventurers naturally resistant to one school of magic ? (I'll think you'll find no)

Why is a Marmot strong against earth for example ?

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ive read it yes, but seems like you didnt read the rest of the thread.

and why the hell should "normal" monsters have no element?? just coz its not obvious?? use your imagination damn it.
Those are monsters not animals, so of course they can have an element. A Marmot is strong against earth coz they eat dirt ... or what ever ...


and no it does not make sense to me.

we are not naturally resistant, but there was a time where we could put the points where we wanted

Se could make the elements affinity stronger, like in Ragnarok, but please not weaker
If you cast an earth spell on an earth monster, the monster should resist the spell or the spell should heal the monster.

The element table in Ragnarok is very complex and you know after the first hit if you attack with the wrong element

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3903/eletable.jpg

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Originally Posted by Firon

If anything most of the mage classes in XI was the same cause they all had the same water down spells so they could all do dmg equally cause they all needed fire,ice,wind,water,lighting,earth.

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what are you talking about?

the only problem that should be fixed.. give light spells to conjurer and all elementals to thm.. and the problem is solved.
then the thm can switch through all elements, depending on the enemy's weaknesses.


in FFXI not every caster class had access to all elemental spells, what are you talking about?!

WHM -> banish, dia etc. (lightspells)
BLM -> all elemental spells + dark spells
RDM -> all elemental and lightspells (what a redmage is supposed to have! its the lore of red mages.)
BlueMage -> monster spells


if they do it this way in FFXIV again, we wont have a problem. Lightspells are almost out of the wheel and neutral to elemental weaknesses except darkness.

It seems his issue is more that some mobs that don't really have an obvious element associated with them are strong/weak to certain elements. I would argue it's usually pretty obvious what element would be associated with a monster (e.g. birds resisting wind, fish resisting water (not that we have a water spell at the moment...), coblyns and other desert mobs resisting earth), but I understand where he's coming from in that case.

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the only problem that should be fixed.. give light spells to conjurer and all elementals to thm.. and the problem is solved.
then the thm can switch through all elements, depending on the enemy's weaknesses.

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The ironic part of this would be that thaumaturges used to be associated with light and dark, not the natural elements...
But your proposal doesn't address any problem. They gave the minor elements (I call them that because they're extra- most of Final Fantasy has been based around only thunder fire and ice) to conj in large part so that conjurers wouldn't be helpless and be balanced against the other classes in terms of being able to fight solo- ironically something the OP seems to expect of all classes.

Just give us water spells back, the elemental wheel is fine.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Switching to another job is not the solution bro, If someone wants to play this game as BLM only and that content locks them out cause the mobs are weak to everything it does is bad game balance. The elemental wheel does not add complexity at all. Cast thunder it resist it ok use fire! Man that was so hard to figure out!!!

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I believe it has been established by the Developers that this game requires you to progress both vertically (in level) and horizontally (adding other classes) in order to develop your character's full battle potential. If you choose to play within a job, you'll have to accept the limitations that come with the increase in skills. Sometimes, and only sometimes, it might behoove you to play as a class instead of your favorite job.

Having said that, I wish the elemental biases and affinities in the game were more pronounced, or--at least--more discernible than they are right now. I also wish weather and time cycles altered the biases somewhat, to add variety and more class opportunities.

R

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Just give us water spells back, the elemental wheel is fine.

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Amen to that. However, I imagine that with Blizzaga also missing, that both Water and that spell are being held for a level cap increase.

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it is not, when these elements are splitted to two casters....

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1) splitted is not a word
2) There's nothing wrong with this. There was a division of elements in every game with 6 in every game that had them except FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Just give us water spells back, the elemental wheel is fine.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Amen to that. However, I imagine that with Blizzaga also missing, that both Water and that spell are being held for a level cap increase.

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no it is definatley not!


when these elements are seperated into two casters....

from the view of a BLM:
Dragon Enemys like raptors.... well fire sucks, ice sucks... thunder is the only element which is neutral to it. wind would be the best.. which the conjurer has.

it is nonsense to divide the elements into two casters.
and it sucks, that a blm spams thunder on ifrit over and over (doing big damage), wind should be the element he is weaken too.. (if we look at the elemental wheel)


so there is somethin going wrong with the system and the elemental wheel right now. (that water is missing we dont need to discuss) this need to be fixed... and that doesnt help if one class in the near future is going to receive the water elemental attack spell.. makes no sense to split the element attack spells into three holy moly classes.


in FFXI the elemental weaknesses do work, because BLM has access to ALL elements (like in any other FF game!) and can chose the element depending on each sitation. White mage in FFXI has light spells, which are almost neutral to elements, accept darkness. -->> so this WORKS.



here in FFXIV it does not. 5 elements are divided into two classes and one element was thrown away..

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Originally Posted by Firon

I know many wont like this suggestion and are gonna say how it makes the more deep(which it doesn't) I feel they need to get rid of this trait off many of the monsters in the game it should only be on monsters who are purely made of that element like, Elementals, Primals, Flans, and monsters like bombs.

I see no reason why Sheep goats beetles and all this crap needs to be attuned to a certain element. If every mage that is gonna come out in this game they are gonna need to make every class have every element, tbh cause one day a blm can't do content cause everything is strong vs thunder,fire,/ice.

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sound like the guy who asked SE to remove relics from XI because theyre inferior to empyreans... how many ridiculous ideas come across these forums daily?

We just have to wait until Quetzalcoatl/Ixion/Ramuh gets implemented and watch MAYHEM ensue, harharharharhar! Forums will go along with Popcorn perfectly then^^ Half the fun will already start with Garuda (lolice nuking)^^

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

no it is definatley not!


when these elements are seperated into two casters....

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do you not communicate with your party members? 'cause a lack of communication is the only way I can that being a problem.

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Originally Posted by GinTama

Those are monsters not animals, so of course they can have an element. A Marmot is strong against earth coz they eat dirt ... or what ever ...

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A Marmot is a monster ? /holds hand to mouth and giggles.

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and no it does not make sense to me.

we are not naturally resistant, but there was a time where we could put the points where we wanted

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And not any longer, nor do we current have the use of water spells.

We are actually naturally resistant to all spells now, check your elemental resistance in Attributes.

@ Felis, yea Flans are such an example where monsters are healed by spells and attacks of their attuned element.

Of course it took me a while to realise why I was doing such little damage on a Marmot as a MNK with Fists of Earth. (I agree that if the mob had been healed I would have noticed much faster) so you do have a good point.

If you need a wind or stone spell, have the whm or con nuke. If the issue is that the whm af reduces spell damage, wear different gear. I don't see the issue here.

the whole point of this stuff is depth and complexity in combat. making all the elemental spells the same and making elements irrelevant in most cases kills that.

Mot every game even had earth/water/wind elements, by the way- but in nearly every game that did, those elements were used by a job other than black mage. Like it or not, this spell setup is more true to final fantasy.

^ are you suggesting that people currently play the game strategizing which spell to use when killing a Marmot for example?

I agree there is a choice you have to make when fighting a flan, because some spells will heal them, I think what's really interesting when a Flan changes element during combat.

I think elementals should be healed in a similar way.

If you are going to keep the elemental wheel make it matter like Felis suggested.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

If you need a wind or stone spell, have the whm or con nuke. If the issue is that the whm af reduces spell damage, wear different gear. I don't see the issue here.

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I would feel insulted if I say a white mage trying to DD. They should be curing and buff. They ARE the healer role! There is no, if, or buts. There is no other healer, and seconds it takes for them to cast an offensive spell the tank could be killed.

Black Mage is purely damage dealing it can't do anything else! We can't support the group in any other way other than our damage output, so why should white mage be able to do both healing and DDing? And Red Mage, which we all know it coming, has always been a mixture of both Blm/Whm so it can do both and enfeeble.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I would feel insulted if I say a white mage trying to DD. They should be curing and buff. They ARE the healer role! There is no, if, or buts. There is no other healer, and seconds it takes for them to cast an offensive spell the tank could be killed.

Black Mage is purely damage dealing it can't do anything else! We can't support the group in any other way other than our damage output, so why should white mage be able to do both healing and DDing? And Red Mage, which we all know it coming, has always been a mixture of both Blm/Whm so it can do both and enfeeble.

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Whatever you say. WHM has damage spells, and they work, so I'll continue to use them. Of course it's not main DD, but WHM dmg spells have their place. The whm af fight is an excellent example of when a whm should be using dmg spells. We did that fight last night with 5 people, 2 whm (one healing and one on DD) 2 BLMs and a MNK. The fight went very smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Whatever you say. WHM has damage spells, and they work, so I'll continue to use them. Of course it's not main DD, but WHM dmg spells have their place. The whm af fight is an excellent example of when a whm should be using dmg spells. We did that fight last night with 5 people, 2 whm (one healing and one on DD) 2 BLMs and a MNK. The fight went very smoothly.

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Thats cause that fight is so easy you dont even need to Cure. its a straight zerg fight. If you cant zerg that fight your doing it wrong. And And ya they do work cause if they didnt Blm wouldnt be bitching they don t have them. Its as Everyone else say give Whm Banish and or Scourge and give Blm All the elemental spells everyones happy.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Thats cause that fight is so easy you dont even need to Cure. its a straight zerg fight. If you cant zerg that fight your doing it wrong.

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Last time I checked zerg tactics are the opposite of low-man. It is a pretty easy fight, but it's still easier to use the right elemental spells ala whm.

exactly its an easy fight were curing isnt as important. Like jin said put whm in a situation where if they decide to cast a spell that the Tank could die in those few seconds. Blm should have them for that reason. And if SE would give Cnj/Whm Banish and or Scourge your really not losing anything.