The Chimera, the Monk and the Guard

i play mnk mainly sometimes blm for first sections of mobs in AV . Nothin does Higher dps on bosses/subbosses than mnk period... My linkshell doesnt even have to use blms in CCs weve done it before plenty of times w/ 1 or none. And u dont need all Wars/blms for Ant Queen either 2-3 smart wars/blms/brds can take care of all the adds w/ ease. Infact having a mnk or lnc even dps on Queen while others off the adds usually makes for a faster Queen kill. As a MNK u can even take out the guard in 1 fast combo before it gets a chance to heal the queen then go about bashing the ant to death again. w/ wind fist u never run outa combos to spam nor tp. IMO mnk is by far overpowered.

BLM does overall pisspoor dmg on bosses in comparison to mnk (I'm a damn well equipped good blm and ive compared the 2) the only thing keeping parties from being diversified is 1sided-drony thinking on the communities part.

While I totally understand wanting to play your preferred class in every situation, it's just not practical to expect this for every event/raid/primal/NM. In order to have dynamic battles, and raids, you will always get a 'preferred setup' for each different situation...the trick is 1.making sure every job and class has it's own content to shine in. and 2. making sure that content is still clearable by mixed 'less-optimal' groups.

This being said: SE designed a game that you can basically swap out classes/jobs on the fly. It's part of the games design. They sort of expect you to have mastered more than one class for 'Hardcore' Elite content. So basically, SE is rewarding people for being able to be flexible and play different roles on the same raid OR know how to stack a party pre-entry to optimize their time. I know it's not what people want to hear, but speed/5 chest runs weren't designed to be easy to get with every setup.

Also, while it's hard to judge the games direction based on only the handful of 'Elite' content we've had atm, as long as SE creates battles that take out Ranged Damage for example, or add in mobs with high magic resistance, Monk and LNC will get some limelight. It's just now, especially for 'PUG' groups, it's easier and less-risky to recruit certain setups.

Basically, if you want to try Monk in a situation where people don't typically use them, run it with friends first. Make sure you can rock it out. If you can rock it out, video it and put it where people can see. So often people don't think for themselves and do things the way others do it because it's proven.

It's PLD than needs serious love...they aren't even invited to tank....and are supposedly by description, the only tanking class in the game. It's like not letting WHM's be the main healers....

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Very well detailed post.

I agree with everything you said, but I need to make just one point.

Nothing beats MNK's single target DPS.

So while MNK isn't ideal for the waves of mobs in the new dungeons, they rock FACE when they are allowed to go all out on a single mob.

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this is actually quite debatable depending on the length of the encounter/which boss. While theoretically MNKs should be top single target dps, we've seen that BLM can compete just fine in a short encounter (under 2 minute Mistress where MP isn't a factor). Highest DPS we've seen on MNK so far is around 162DPS while we've seen 167DPS on BLM.

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BLM does overall pisspoor dmg on bosses in comparison to mnk (I'm a damn well equipped good blm and ive compared the 2) the only thing keeping parties from being diversified is 1sided-drony thinking on the communities part.

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Again it depends on the encounter and what you've stated is quite wrong.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Very well detailed post.

I agree with everything you said, but I need to make just one point.

Nothing beats MNK's single target DPS.

So while MNK isn't ideal for the waves of mobs in the new dungeons, they rock FACE when they are allowed to go all out on a single mob.

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Dragoon beats monk on enemies that don't have an elemental weakness to wind/earth/fire.

[QUOTE=Richard_BG;647014]Highest DPS we've seen on MNK so far is around 162DPS while we've seen 167DPS on BLM.
QUOTE]

your monk suck!


joke :p
anyway, monk in AV CAN be used from Miser, only in CC not used from bosses (only from chimera is hardly to use it).. but monk is useful on Ifrit, Moogle and one target mob as probably Darkhold Ogre (i don't try after 1.21, but before with Pounce stun the pgl rules!) and skelly from batraal..

re-anyway maybe there is a strategy for use monk on CC... and i'll discover it.... because, i've the Fists in the Hands!

PS. Cloudio write less please XD

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

Dragoon beats monk on enemies that don't have an elemental weakness to wind/earth/fire.

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Not really monk dps is about the same as lnc w/o fist up. Also Onizuka i support this thread x100000 Everyone should have fun doing any boss fight on any class and any content. I feel your pain trying to do this content on pgl only i got my first 45 wins on ifrit on pgl, it was my only 50 @ the time, and i was blowing lnc dps out the window back then.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Not really monk dps is about the same as lnc w/o fist up. Also Onizuka i support this thread x100000 Everyone should have fun doing any boss fight on any class and any content. I feel your pain trying to do this content on pgl only i got my first 45 wins on ifrit on pgl, it was my only 50 @ the time, and i was blowing lnc dps out the window back then.

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Ah because stat caps, abilities and playstyles haven't changed since 1.19?
I still maintain that if you have an equally well-geared DRG it will beat a MNK on a single target (with Fists up, against an enemy with no elemental weakness).

I don't agree with the OP. It's impossible to make content that suits all classes equally. It's simply because all classes aren't equal. Perhaps the reason that we aren't seeing all classes played equally in FFXIV's current content is because it's in our nature to exploit enemies' weaknesses and pick classes to our advantage. As much as I disregard Daeva of War on the Gungnir server as a successful linkshell, they recently proved that they could beat Aurum Vale, with a speed run, using all 7 classes. It's not that the content is made incorrectly, or that the classes are inbalanced, it's that the players refuse to take these classes deemed by the majority as "unfit" for a particular scenario.

In my opinion the latest dungeons have a good balance of content that suits each and every job. Between each of them, the only job my linkshell doesn't use during a run is Paladin - and it's simply because it's not up to it's potential (requiring further adjustments).

I have been tanking chimera as PLD, yes you will end up with slower chimera kill, but it is safer with PLD due to the amount of hate they can generate without the fear of WHMs overcuring and messing up positioning and still achieve speedrun with no issue.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

Ah because stat caps, abilities and playstyles haven't changed since 1.19?
I still maintain that if you have an equally well-geared DRG it will beat a MNK on a single target (with Fists up, against an enemy with no elemental weakness).

I don't agree with the OP. It's impossible to make content that suits all classes equally. It's simply because all classes aren't equal. Perhaps the reason that we aren't seeing all classes played equally in FFXIV's current content is because it's in our nature to exploit enemies' weaknesses and pick classes to our advantage. As much as I disregard Daeva of War on the Gungnir server as a successful linkshell, they recently proved that they could beat Aurum Vale, with a speed run, using all 7 classes. It's not that the content is made incorrectly, or that the classes are inbalanced, it's that the players refuse to take these classes deemed by the majority as "unfit" for a particular scenario.

In my opinion the latest dungeons have a good balance of content that suits each and every job. Between each of them, the only job my linkshell doesn't use during a run is Paladin - and it's simply because it's not up to it's potential (requiring further adjustments).

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Thats an cop out if you don't think they should make content for all classes to attend. This game wont succeed. As stated in the OP Yoshi-p promised you could play the game fully if you only have 1 battle class to 50 and they seem intent on making fights for melee hell.

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Originally Posted by Quatre

Out of curiousity, Is you bard stacking Dexterity or Piety? I've only capped out at ~ 100 DPS on Miser and ~200 DPS on Princess with a DEX Build, but haven't done any theorycrafting on PIE vs. DEX.

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Stat Caps for BRD: 335pie, 300dex
Very easy to hit with double dex gloves, double pie body, paragon crown, HQ jewelry

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...IE-ATK-Testing

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Very well detailed post.

I agree with everything you said, but I need to make just one point.

Nothing beats MNK's single target DPS.

So while MNK isn't ideal for the waves of mobs in the new dungeons, they rock FACE when they are allowed to go all out on a single mob.

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Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I like Monk so much. At least on single opponents I can give it all. :)

About some of the other comments, like I said in the first post I'm absolutely sure that clearing Cutter's Cry with a Monk is doable, but there're the matters I already mentioned, now quoting another adventurer:

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

This isn't terribly helpful at all considering you "making your own party" would still have you trying to convince people to join a group that isn't doing it the "efficient", speed run easy mode way. So you'd still be sitting there with no bites unless you played only with LS members who weren't jerks.

What would be helpful is if A: Community stopped wanting only the easy mode way of doing things and were willing to actually try new setups and strategies and B: SE stopped promoting class stacking, AoE and ranged class spam.

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So, again...

1. It may take a lot of time to “go against the rule”, and it's the time of 7 other adventurers.

2. The average party aims only for the speed run and asks for the usual Jobs.

That video of the Aurum Vale's run with every Job is not something common and that the average adventurer would accept to do. It's going against what the developers had apparently in mind for the instanced raids: Speed Runs AoE Feast.
But I, for one, would prefer over 9000 more a party like that, with 2 White Mages and every other adventurer with a different Job and their shiny AFs, rather than those AoE party that are the trend and that are utterly boring for my Class (like that example I did for my last Aurum Vale party). Even if I manage to find a group, doing almost nothing during the whole run (the others do it for me, as shown in the video I posted with the 4x Flare) and only against the Final Boss is not my definition of Adventure... And, once again, I don't know how even “who has the right Class” can enjoy this AoE routine every single time.


I hope that at least by 2.0 some adjustments will be made to bring more balance in the instanced raids, that's all I'm asking for. If this is not possible then I'd ask for an official statement of Yoshida saying that one Discipline of War at max level is not enough to do all the endgame contents like he originally stated, the situation right now for a Monk trying to find a Princess-Chimera party in Cutter's Cry (and like I said I also started to get refusals for the Vale, due to other Jobs being more requested for the Speed Run).

But if they acknowledge that maybe there's something not right in the current situation of “AoE feast-Speed Run” and if that means to drastically change it, judging by the replies to this thread I've a feeling I won't be the only one to /joydance in his Subligar (and if you don't have a Subligar, I can always make one for you).

/fingerscrossed!

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Originally Posted by Yves

I really do agree with the post. HOWEVER...

This is FF. One of the biggest gripes I had with XI and XIV has been that certain classes will be excluded from certain content. I didn't want to play RNG or SMN in XI but guess what? If you wanted the ACP win you were pretty much stuck with a certain setup (pre-uber patch.) It shouldn't be this way but it is and will likely always be. If you want to experience more success then you need to branch out and have multiple classes - THIS IS WHAT THE ARMORY SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED FOR. Again, I'm not knocking the validity of the post - I just don't see it being probable that single-class players will get very far in this game.

Just watch - Garuda will end up being melee-centric and then suddenly BLM is going to be neglected and we start getting the same issue with another class.

Yes, part of this is a function of the community but I don't think anyone can blame people for wanting to be more efficient. While it is true that people can experiment and explore other options, it seems that the OP is not in this position since they are waiting for /sh groups (generally a dangerous predicament to begin with!) To ask these people to potentially forgo hours of gameplay to test a theory is uncool as the investment will exceed the reward in that you will gain very little (if anything) from practicing 10 runs before getting it down. That would be about 6 hours of total time invested to possibly shave 2-3 min from a run, meaning that, well...you can do the math. The return on investment would take far too long to make any sense.

Yes, it sucks. No, it shouldn't be this way. Yes, it is probably going to stay this way. Yes, you need to level other jobs or find a game that doesn't require this kind of flexibility.

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Agree with this.

I, my-self, love MNK and PGL has been the first class I brought to 50, but after some Ifrit runs, where I was feeling such a pain for the party, I decided to exp CNJ and then THM... exping LNC right now and will follow it with the others.

I cannot wait for more content where to use my MNK, but it is unfair to the party to go with a class which doesn't suite the battle mechanics needed.... I go WHM with my LS CC runs now, and thinking to cure also a close range-dd during Chimera fight sounds so bad for hate control. We get enough hate from just curing the tank already.

So the best is to exp all classes and do what the situation/fight needs. End of the day it really doesn't take long to bring a class from 0 to 50; instead of wasting time waiting for a party to accept you as MNK, you could just invest that time to exp a job useful enough, so to be accepted into any /shout party, next time.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Thats an cop out if you don't think they should make content for all classes to attend. This game wont succeed. As stated in the OP Yoshi-p promised you could play the game fully if you only have 1 battle class to 50 and they seem intent on making fights for melee hell.

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This makes no sense whatsoever. Please read my previous post more carefully.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

I have been tanking chimera as PLD, yes you will end up with slower chimera kill, but it is safer with PLD due to the amount of hate they can generate without the fear of WHMs overcuring and messing up positioning and still achieve speedrun with no issue.

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That's an interesting point considering one of the many problems with PLD is enmity generation. As far as I'm concerned the only legitimate use for PLD at this point in time is being able to gather and hold multiple enemies simultaneously.

Unfortunately it's very hard to balance all encounters for all classes/jobs to be equally useful. However there are some fights that Monk is good at. Ifrit, Moogle and Aurum Vale are some of the areas where Monk shines. Hell I've hit top damage in my group on Ifrit and was a close second last night on Moogle (due to a few miscalculations of mine) and I'm not even using super awesome gear. A skilled Monk can do some really amazing damage in the right situations. Unfortunately Cutter's Cry is really one of those situations that is not optimal for Monk. With all the multi-target mess and AoE damage Monk is really not a great choice.

That being said, I do agree with you that you shouldn't be forced to level multiple other jobs you don't care about just to clear the content because of optimal (and in this case almost required) party setups. I mean I remember when Darkhold came out and PGL was my only 50. For the first few wins, most people didn't know how to do a lot of it without all ranged. So I would just sit around and Accomplice people who were high on hate. It sucked.

I agree with OP in nearly all aspects.
At this time MNK seems to be in a disadvantage as a single-target DD cause this game is made to have a crowd-orientated battlesystem.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

That's an interesting point considering one of the many problems with PLD is enmity generation. As far as I'm concerned the only legitimate use for PLD at this point in time is being able to gather and hold multiple enemies simultaneously.

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In a fight where the particular mob has big melee defense (ifrit/chima), PLD hate generation has always come on top on a long fight to the point where evading skills arent even necessarry with WHMs curebombung. WAR only triumphs at short fights like clearing small mobs, it also triumphs at dps race fight like misser for an obvious reason.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

In a fight where the particular mob has big melee defense (ifrit/chima), PLD hate generation has always come on top on a long fight to the point where evading skills arent even necessarry with WHMs curebombung. WAR only triumphs at short fights like clearing small mobs, it also triumphs at dps race fight like misser for an obvious reason.

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i dont think so. warrior is by far the better tank, with better damage, a great emnity skill set, and better defense. i hate watching pld hp go up and down like a yoyo. pld is a joke and needs severe help.

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

i dont think so. warrior is by far the better tank, with better damage, a great emnity skill set, and better defense. i hate watching pld hp go up and down like a yoyo. pld is a joke and needs severe help.

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My PLD have 4,5k hp. I am sorry if you have crappy tanks that wears full AF.

And in that 4.5k HP set on PLD you could be wearing a 5k HP set on WAR. I'm interested if enmity generation is better against chimera/ifrit as a PLD vs WAR that is all I care about. Enmity caps. I have been meaning to redo my enmity table in the BG parser and add in an enmity table but then ppl wear enmity gear and it all gets messed up.

I see three reasons why we currently class stack.

1) Instance Raid timer. You have 60 minutes to do a raid. Trying something new wastes a lot of time with this setup. You try something new and it fails on a boss, you are not getting your speed run. It could go so far that you use up your 60 minutes and have reset the instance with a reenter cooldown. In other MMOs, I can try a boss as long as I want and get through parts of the instance as long as I want to try. Forcing me to leave after a timer encourages me not to experiment, for it my wastes my precious time and I get booted out of the place. In short, SE has created a punishment system for not using the known class stacking plan because experimenting and failure is heavily punished.

2) Lock out timer for failures. Why do we get a time out for a failure? We failed the raid, so we can't play again until I think about why I failed? What am I? Five? I already failed, possibly wiped with equipment damage, and didn't get any final boss or primal loot. Do we really need another punishment? I play this game to have fun with my free time, not to wait for a cooldown timer for a punishment.

3) Speed Runs. To get all loot, you must meet an arbitrary time limit. Well, I want all loot, who doesn't? This really just reenforces the previous two issues. You don't meet this tighter time restraint, you can't have all the fun loot.

Why does this encourage class stacking? You loose too much for not doing it.

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Originally Posted by Guevara

So the best is to exp all classes and do what the situation/fight needs. End of the day it really doesn't take long to bring a class from 0 to 50; instead of wasting time waiting for a party to accept you as MNK, you could just invest that time to exp a job useful enough, so to be accepted into any /shout party, next time.

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This is sooooooooooooooo wrong. I couldn't agree less. :( This is not at all “the best” way to solve the problem. If this is really what the devs have in mind, then I would like them to officially state it.

Playing a Class you've no interest about is incredibly wrong. I firmly believe that in a world like Eorzea we should always do what we like doing. That's a big point in my philosophy in Eorzea.
If the game forces to play with other Classes to properly enjoy those contents, then I'll gladly stay with my crafting & gathering until the end of time with Spekkio. :) 4 Black Mages clearing the Aurum Vale spamming Flare with /countdown and then switching to Monk for the Final Boss => No thanks.

What you said is just the trend that Final Fantasy XIV is falling into, also due to the easiness in leveling up: have all the battle Classes at level 50 (I spoke about this in another Topic, but was partly misunderstood), and in party switch to the one needed by the party, rather than the one you would like to play with.
If the masses like this direction, good for them, but I prefer to have my Class identity and level up a Class only if I feel like doing it.

After reading your post, just a few minutes ago I felt like doing another test, seeing a known adventurer with an instanced raid request in the Party Interface. Part of the conversation:

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Him: time atakk very hard
Me: Hai... Watashi wa Monk desu... [Yes... I'm a Monk...]
Me: Monk in Instanced Raid => No thanks... :-(
Me: Demo...! Bouken + Chousen, I'm interested.! [But...! Adventure + Challenge, I'm interested!]
Him: soudesune ^^ [I see]
Him: White mage Can you do it?
Me: LVL 50 Monk only... /panic
Him: Monk hard White mage easy
Me: Hai... That's too bad... /panic
Me: Conjurer LVL 30
Him: Good luck!＾＾
Me: no Monk?
Him: cooperation hard
Me: Understood.
Him: cooperation easy White mage
Me: Good luck!
Him: I'm sorry.
Him: See you again!
You leave the party.

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Easy easy easy! Ooook! This was just a test to give an idea of the conversations of last week's experiment, I wasn't really in combat mood today, anyway.
I'm still in Gridania crafting near the Black Tea Brook and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. :)

Adventurers simply want easy stuff and the fastest way to clear those pointless Speed Runs. I cannot force them to believe that there might be something more important than a Super Gear: if they don't have much time to spend in Eorzea and the contents to get that gear are badly designed, then I can't blame them if they just want to do them with the more suited Classes. I wonder if they really enjoy this AoE routine, though...

Like I said in the first post, if the system stays as is, it won't be me to join the masses nor the trend, but I'll still enjoy my time in Eorzea without doing the contents my level 50 Discipline of War is not requested/suited for. :)


When 2.0 will be released, I'll write another review for the game and I wouldn't like to say “Certain Classes are penalized for some of the endgame contents and therefore you're forced to level other ones you might not have an interest into in order to play those contents.”, it would be in the cons, and a big one.
I hope the devs will see the light and balance the current system by then.

Well, nothing else to add to what I said in the first post, we'll see how this shall turn out as time flows. :cool:

I think the point was already made that AV/CC should not be balanced for every job. We all screamed for class identity and we finally have it. Each job is most useful at specific points inside AV/CC
blm-AV coincounter, sleepga adds @ mistress, burn chimera, aoe trash
whm-everywhere
war-tank everywhere
drg-princess
mnk-mistress
brd-everywhere
pld-shafted

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I hope that at least by 2.0 some adjustments will be made to bring more balance in the instanced raids, that's all I'm asking for. If this is not possible then I'd ask for an official statement of Yoshida saying that one Discipline of War at max level is not enough to do all the endgame contents like he originally stated, the situation right now for a Monk trying to find a Princess-Chimera party in Cutter's Cry (and like I said I also started to get refusals for the Vale, due to other Jobs being more requested for the Speed Run)

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People in this thread have shown examples of how any job is more then capable of being productive and producing speed runs. You are never going to get the community to agree with you though. You don't need more jobs at 50 to experience the content available, you need to find ppl who are willing to deal with a less then optimal party setup for speed. If you had blm and pgl you could be very effective in every fight we have so far. I would suggest doing blm to 50 for the sheer utility of having 2 jobs. Nothing wrong with some diversity and considering you can take jobs 1-50 in days/weeks rather then what used to take months+ there is no reason not to.

The fact it takes seconds to change a class doesn't help this matter. I've never played an MMO where I can go from a paladin to a mage in seconds before. Why work with a class when you change your class to fit the setting?

EDIT: Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if our ability to change class was restricted at some point.

@Cloudio Onizuka - Excalibur in the building!!!!!

I do agree though... it's time to stop blaming the community or even the classes/jobs

It's the content.. the encounters could be designed much better

Yes you can do a run with one of every class....

But if the best linkshells take 24 minutes in a dungeon with a diverse group and 18 minutes class stacked...
What do you expect the community to do?

If Ifrit takes 5-8 minutes or 3 minutes with a mage burn... what are they going to do?
in reality... people very rarely take "The Scenic Route" to work

Excellent post OP. I actually read the whole thing. It's unfortunate that Warrior, Black Mage and their old class counterparts have been the only two classes to shine since they nerfed Archer way back when. Lancer, and even more so Monk? Shyeah. Forget about it. This is another reason I quit; Two of my most favored jobs have been shit on repeatedly almost from day one. Gladiator and Pugilist.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Excellent post OP. I actually read the whole thing. It's unfortunate that Warrior, Black Mage and their old class counterparts have been the only two classes to shine since they nerfed Archer way back when. Lancer, and even more so Monk? Shyeah. Forget about it. This is another reason I quit; Two of my most favored jobs have been shit on repeatedly almost from day one. Gladiator and Pugilist.

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Gladiator has had it's OP moments....
That's the issue... sometimes SE goes from one extreme to the other....

What about this:

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Imagine a boss who had a shield... and with that shield, he took very little damage. So you have a DRG use the Vorpal thrust>Impulse Drive>Chaos Thrust Combo. If the chaos thrust is executed on the shield arm side, you get the message "Shield arm appears weak and shaky"
When that happens... a WAR uses Maim>Godsbane on the shield arm and the arm falls, Defense is reduced 40% but attack speed increases 10%
those are arbitrary numbers... The point is you make the fight doable but very difficult without completing the special objective... and easier but still tough when you do complete the optional objective
He still wouldn't be an easy fight with the incap but he'd go from being stupid hard to just hard.

Then when his HP fell below 20% he'd put up a magic Ice paling. The only way to repel the magic paling is with a Battle regimen that had (in this order) fire, wind and then concussive blow
Fire to weaken the ice, wind to intensify the flames and concussive blow to shatter the paling
With the paling down... his defense and magic defense go down 25%
(again arbitrary number enfeeble, but you get what I'm saying)
You could make the debuff 50% decrease in defense... whatever....

At 10% HP, his regen increases. The only way to mitigate that is with Piercing arrow>gloom Arrow>Bloodletter combo
Once again... you can beat him without that. It is just noticeably tougher

The point is you could go into the fight with 5 of whatever class deals damage the best at the time, but without being able to complete the optional objectives, you're in for one hell of a fight.

Also by making multiple objectives in 1 fight... you allow for different parties to fight it their way.

You can say "We don't have a marauder for the shield incap... but thats ok, we've got the other 2 incaps covered.
Or "We don't have an Archer for the 'Final Blow' incap, but we've got a strong DPS team and we can do the Shield and magic paling incaps so we should be good.

This way, you could take a very mixed party and have fun on NMs
Instead of
/shout Ifrit party, 3/8, need thaums only

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Monk isn't a viable class in the two new dungeons because of BLM, WAR, their AOE, and people's inability to try new setups for dungeons / invite people who aren't those classes.

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So basically what you are saying...class favoritism all over again...sorta like what you see in all MMO's...the dilemma of balancing...

Basically Rydin's example is the only way you'd force class versatility. Players will always choose the path of least resistance given a choice. Who can blame them when you have to run the same thing 1000 times over. By the 10th time you want to get it done as efficiently as possible.

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Originally Posted by Madruk

Basically Rydin's example is the only way you'd force class versatility. Players will always choose the path of least resistance given a choice. Who can blame them when you have to run the same thing 1000 times over. By the 10th time you want to get it done as efficiently as possible.

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Yea... it boils down to whether you want class stacking so parties will be looking for all 1 class...
Or diversity by necessity... in which parties will be looking for one of everything....

Although, in my example, I do feel like people would be less reluctant to go with less than ideal setups
And also in my example... no one class can complain that they can NEVER get invites...

Then the point remains... Do you make EVERY single encounter like this?
Or is this only an issue now because we get 1 or 2 pieces of content per patch... so if someone's Job is not preferred on, say, Garuda... then 1.22 becomes a death patch for them

The people I currently do speed runs with do use black mage for the beginning of the new instances, but on chimera and mistress they use monks to do damage, and break the tail of chimera. They are a very fun class and the way that the dungeons are designed in the beginning it would be much more difficult to do them if there was not the AOE Damage.

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Originally Posted by Nyx

The people I currently do speed runs with do use black mage for the beginning of the new instances, but on chimera and mistress they use monks to do damage, and break the tail of chimera. They are a very fun class and the way that the dungeons are designed in the beginning it would be much more difficult to do them if there was not the AOE Damage.

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Has the tail incap done anything special?

It stops him from doing the poison attack.

I was thinking about how to fix the classism that runs rampant in dungeon requirements. An idea came into my head that could solve a lot of issues. Make it so you cannot change classes/jobs in dungeons. This would pretty much mean you need a variety of classes rather than stacking to be an efficient group.

That would fix....absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Very well detailed post.

I agree with everything you said, but I need to make just one point.

Nothing beats MNK's single target DPS.

So while MNK isn't ideal for the waves of mobs in the new dungeons, they rock FACE when they are allowed to go all out on a single mob.

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last time i've beaten a monk when it comes to damage in moogle fight..

DRG is also a very good damage dealer if you are well equipped with +attack and use ur dragonic buff skills to boost your attack power higher than 700+. you have much tp generation and good 3er combos which do nice dmg (from lv 46 on. before you arent really a damage dealer). you do constantly dmg.

i almost came in the same league like blms.. although in moogle fight you always have to run after moogles and arent able to hit at anytime..

while the blms did around 71k damage i was at about 61-65k dmg, which i think is decent within this fight.


why always people tend to use just the same class/job over and over depending on the instance? most classes have their authorization to be there....!


just stop it .. "i need 3 blms for moogle fight.." "i need a whole grp of monks for speedrun" thats just completely insane.. i would say a group of drgs would also do the same! or a group of rangers..

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Originally Posted by Tibian

mean you need a variety of classes rather than stacking to be an efficient group.

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you dont need to stack jobs/classes to be efficient..
its just in the mind of the players..

they never tried out in a different way.. a monk can easily replaced by a drg (as melee dmg function) and the other way around... because they almost fit the same role!

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Originally Posted by LillithaFenimore

So basically what you are saying...class favoritism all over again...sorta like what you see in all MMO's...the dilemma of balancing...

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well its like when someone finds out an easy strategy all want to do the same. they hear that it was done easily by a group of monks so they need to switch to monk also.

i say drg's could do it maybe also..

there was a video of a group of lancers killing ifrit very fast.. so many people switched over to lancer and tried out the same... and now they prefer it with blm.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Change the CONTENT to work around MNK. Let's see more fights where monk can beast down single targets/semi offtank.

I would like to see evasion tanking (with actual stacked evasion, not utsusemi)

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If you create a glancing blows/grazing mechanic for evasion tanking (where grazes and glancing blows mitigate some of the damage coming in), I can get behind that. If you're looking for total damage avoidance, then no.

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This is FF. One of the biggest gripes I had with XI and XIV has been that certain classes will be excluded from certain content. I didn't want to play RNG or SMN in XI but guess what? If you wanted the ACP win you were pretty much stuck with a certain setup (pre-uber patch.) It shouldn't be this way but it is and will likely always be.

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Only if you sit there and say nothing. It's a bad aspect of FF that works in the single-player RPGs but doesn't in an MMO. SE needs to learn this lesson and grow from it, not remain stuck with something that doesn't work for the sake of being different.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

they never tried out in a different way.. a monk can easily replaced by a drg (as melee dmg function) and the other way around... because they almost fit the same role!

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Yes you can do the content with a variety of class setups....
But when it's content you run over and over and over... you will inevitably want the fastest possible way...
If it was content you only had to do once or twice, then you'd see a variety of classes... but knowing you need to spam it HUNDREDS of times... people are eager to shave even a minute off of each time... because in the long run, that can be a big deal

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Yes you can do the content with a variety of class setups....
But when it's content you run over and over and over... you will inevitably want the fastest possible way...
If it was content you only had to do once or twice, then you'd see a variety of classes... but knowing you need to spam it HUNDREDS of times... people are eager to shave even a minute off of each time... because in the long run, that can be a big deal

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This is what it keeps coming back to. If you want flexibility then found an LS that is open to it. In the meantime, since I need to run CC at least 200+ times with speedruns to gear our LS I am going to do it the most efficient way possible. This isn't closed-minded, rather efficiency-centric.

Someone earlier responded to my statement that you could complete ACP and Alexander with non-traditional setups. This is true but I wasn't going to risk a two hour tower climb for 50-50 odds. I chose to level an alternative class that would also allow me to participate in other battles. In the end? I loved RNG to the point it was my 3rd favorite class. The same thing happened for me in this game - I had no desire to level THM/BLM but did it because I ran out of stuff to do and assumed it would be needed. The result? It's hard to get me off BLM!

Lastly, you are asking for a cookie-cutter system in which balance/fair-play is prevalent. That isn't really the FF way. The FF history had been similar to sports: find a weakness and exploit the hell out of it. This is infuriating at some times and yet highly rewarding and oddly addictive. It's the same in any game. I know that some people try to pull the "fair play/I want challenge" card but that's a joke. I played ball with a coach who preached that day and night and on gameday we ran right at the Will who over-pursued, leveraged the DE who couldn't contain, and pressed the X because they ran a timing-based variation of the WCO. End result? Everyone loves a win.

iirc, BRD builds are doing DEX and/or PIE to around 290~, but after that, focusing primarily on STR and attack power.