What exactly do we know as of 5.3 about the sound that was heard before Amaurot fell?

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

When I first played, I thought perhaps the Ancients had reached space, tech-wise, and their satellites and/or stations were falling or something. We have no indication they did or didn't have that, but still, the meteors seem to be originating from beyond the planet, whatever they are composed of. It just feels like an external attack to me.

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The whole space thing has made me recall... The Dragonstar and Omega's homeworld. There /are/ other worlds out there different to the Ancients'. Now, I know Aliens™️ is a very old trope but... you know, besides having the NieR: Automata raid and having Omega and Sormr come from another planets, this should not surprise us.

In the Ivalice raids, Mikoto speaks of how Ultima-the-Lucavi and how Ultima-the-spell share a name and notes that Ultima as cast by Ultima Weapon had aetheric readings that should not be possible in our world at least. It is evident Ultima is a threat come from a different world / plane. A malevolent entity / will coming to gorge on a star that rich in aether as the Ancients' was... Let us say, it would not be unheard of in Final Fantasy history.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

The whole space thing has made me recall... The Dragonstar and Omega's homeworld. There /are/ other worlds out there different to the Ancients'. Now, I know Aliens™️ is a very old trope but... you know, besides having the NieR: Automata raid and having Omega and Sormr come from another planets, this should not surprise us.

In the Ivalice raids, Mikoto speaks of how Ultima-the-Lucavi and how Ultima-the-spell share a name and notes that Ultima as cast by Ultima Weapon had aetheric readings that should not be possible in our world at least. It is evident Ultima is a threat come from a different world / plane. A malevolent entity / will coming to gorge on a star that rich in aether as the Ancients' was... Let us say, it would not be unheard of in Final Fantasy history.

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It brings to mind several creatures from SE's JRPG history. Lavos from Chrono Trigger, for one. There's also Deus from Xenogears and the Comet (Dark Gaia) from Illusion of Gaia.

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Creation Magic still exists. That is why Primals exist.

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Primals are brought into being through rituals taught by the Ascians. When we go to Amaurot, we're told that we effectively have zero capacity for creation magic, the Ancient seeing this literally can't believe it because even newborn babes have an intrinsic affinity for it and we have no capability at all. Modern magic is, at best, a pale shadow of what creation magic actually is.

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As far as we can tell, Hdyaelyn can't really change what a thing is.

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She turned a bunch of living things into dead, sundered things, which are inherently different from what they were before, so I'd say that's a change.

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Zodiark is still Zoidark, he's just 1/14 as powerful as he was originally.

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I'm pretty sure we have zero reason to believe that Zodiark post-sundering is just "Zodiark, but 1/14th as powerful". This is one of the reasons why I think it's apt to describe him as "dead", because whatever state he exists in now is probably so broken that it can't be described as a thinking or acting being anymore.

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but that doesn't affect their ability to move aether around.

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We're literally told that it does on an innate level.

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Except we've seen several Primals summoned by accident with no Ascian involvement. Lakshmi and Susano come to mind. And Lakshmi was summoned by one individual not a group of people. As was Shiva and one version of Titan. And Thordan... etc.

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That's only a counter-argument if you assume those end-result Primals we see aren't flawed concepts. Lakshmi and Shiva, for example, bear little to no resemblance to how they should actually look - Shiva was a bastardized cross between Ysayle's incorrect ideal of Saint Shiva and Halone. Lakshmi is supposed to be the peak of Ananta beauty, but she was summoned with the appearance of a human. And the Titan summoned by Ga Bu was heavily mentally deficient and maddened. The concept of Thordan and his knights was cemented over the course of a thousand years, it's not surprising they match the venerated ideal of him.

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Arcanism. Carbuncles, Egis and Faries all involve bringing an idea into being

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"Bringing an idea into being" is an extremely nebulous and wide-scoped sort of criteria. The mechanics of Carbuncles, Egis, and Fairies aren't similar to creation magic beyond the broad concept of "aether taking a form".

I don't think this is really something we can argue here. You're told "You have no ability to use creation magic", therefore, the magic we have access to is not creation magic, certainly not how the Ancients would have any conception of it.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Forbidden Planet itself was inspired by Shakespeare's The Tempest

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Yes and no. There's character analogues and setting analogues, but the plots are radically different. A lot of reviewers at the time Forbidden Planet came out likened it to The Tempest, as a method of praise, and the filmmakers gladly accepted such a comparison, because of Shakespeare's notoriety.

So that rippled onwards to people writing essay after essay comparing and contrasting the two, when in actuality their similarities only go so far as their shared tropes.

I mean, far be it from me to undo 64 years of literary interpretation by a multitude of scholars in a single forum post, but that's just my take on it. I think people often attribute stories that share tropes with Shakespeare's work to being inspired or direct ripping-offs of said Bard of Avon's work, but in actuality they're just re-tellings of older myths, much like Shakespeare's work itself.

Of course, if we do follow the consensus that Forbidden Planet is a modern twist on The Tempest, it does wrap everything up in a nice little bow with the zone name where Amaurot lies. Which would make Emet-selch Prospero and Azem Ferdinand. Coincedentally, Ferdinand means, "brave traveler." Heh. XIV's writers done good, huh?

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Yes and no. There's character analogues and setting analogues, but the plots are radically different. A lot of reviewers at the time Forbidden Planet came out likened it to The Tempest, as a method of praise, and the filmmakers gladly accepted such a comparison, because of Shakespeare's notoriety.

So that rippled onwards to people writing essay after essay comparing and contrasting the two, when in actuality their similarities only go so far as their shared tropes.

I mean, far be it from me to undo 64 years of literary interpretation by a multitude of scholars in a single forum post, but that's just my take on it. I think people often attribute stories that share tropes with Shakespeare's work to being inspired or direct ripping-offs of said Bard of Avon's work, but in actuality they're just re-tellings of older myths, much like Shakespeare's work itself.

Of course, if we do follow the consensus that Forbidden Planet is a modern twist on The Tempest, it does wrap everything up in a nice little bow with the zone name where Amaurot lies. Which would make Emet-selch Prospero and Azem Ferdinand. Coincedentally, Ferdinand means, "brave traveler." Heh. XIV's writers done good, huh?

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I did not know of the play (I will not claim I know much of Shakespeare's work, here you would only study it if you course a degree on English Literature) but to have a general idea I checked the Wikipedia and dear Lord. The Tempest-area-of-Norvrandt is brimming to references to The Tempest-Shakespeare-play. Not just because of Prospero and Ferdinand (great catch on the name's meaning) as you mentioned, but there are zones of the Tempest named after characters in the play. Specifically, the Caliban Gap / Gorge and the Trinculo Shelf. This incidentally makes the Tempest being a combination of two great English classics: The Tempest by William Shakespeare in the seabed part, and Utopia by Thomas Moore in Amaurot's part. Very theatrical. Then again, it is Emet we are talking about. Of course he would be theatrical. :D

I feel like if anyone knew about the sound (Assuming it was actually some kind of disturbance being created by something), it was likely Azem.

Though we haven't inherited their memories directly, it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to stow away their findings and knowledge somewhere secure (As in, secure enough to withstand calamities) in hopes that someone might discover it and make use of it some day and perhaps the stone will play into that.

Or at least I can't think of any other way they'll lay bare some of the mysteries of the Ancients that remain unanswered now that the unsundered are gone.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like if anyone knew about the sound (Assuming it was actually some kind of disturbance being created by something), it was likely Azem.

Though we haven't inherited their memories directly, it wouldn't surprise me if they decided to stow away their findings and knowledge somewhere secure (As in, secure enough to withstand calamities) in hopes that someone might discover it and make use of it some day and perhaps the stone will play into that.

Or at least I can't think of any other way they'll lay bare some of the mysteries of the Ancients that remain unanswered now that the unsundered are gone.

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That is the thing. The constellation crystal of Azem we have, that was not crafted by Azem themself, but by Emet-Selch, because Azem was not allowed to do so. There is the question, then: did Azem get to tell Emet about the Sound and he recorded that part in the crystal, or they could not tell their friends or anyone and left that knowledge secured somewhere? I assume that to even access that knowledge it would be needed to use Azem's power just like Allagan blood with the Crystal Tower, to draw a parallel, and the very key to do so was given to us by Emet if that were the case. (Note that Allagan blood is also Emet's thing; while Elidibus needed to steal the Exarch's vessel with his blood to control the Crystal Tower, Emet could activate some of its functions, namely the Ocular projector, as naturally as the Exarch.)

There is also this comment Y'shtola makes while exploring the Tempest and the ruins of Amaurotine buildings. She speculates that in the Source any remnant of Amaurot and the Ancients would have been obliterated by the succession of Calamities. But what if it is not the case? What if there are, indeed, remnants of the unsundered star in the Source that survived the Calamity? That could be a very interesting line to follow from now on. The unsundered world was wider than Amaurot, after all, and it has been stated that the Sound began in faraway lands before it reached the great city. Room for thought.

I feel like we might be able to get some relevant memories the more we get of Azem's soul. Of course, more soul shards would require rejoinings and we don't want to do that. But perhaps Azem's special ability will come in to play there.

Their ability to call their friends to them could be said to rely on bonds formed between themselves and others. So they are basically skilled at calling upon the bonds they've formed. Perhaps we can utilize that to form bonds with the other shards of our soul and essentially network our souls with theirs across world shards, no deaths required. Each soul shard should have the same latent ability, so they can reinforce the effect -- though we'd be strongest since we're the most complete. And then we can access the strongest/most important/urgent memories of the original Azem, which would likely include some revelation about the sound.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Primals are brought into being through rituals taught by the Ascians.

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Not all of them are. King Moggle Mog, Susano and Lakshmi have... nothing to do with Ascian involvement. Susano and Lakshmi are notable in that they were never summoned on purpose. Susano is summoned by three repositories of aether/faith that are associated with the same being all coming into close proximity to each other. And... somehow that being is formed by all the aether in them. The faith in the kami's goes back millenia to when Othard and Hingashi was settled in the wake of the fall of the Allagan Empire so... that's at least a few mellenia of faith and aether accumulation going into Susano's items.

Lakshmi is a lot more straightforward. The queen of the people who believe in Lakshimi asks their goddess for a favor and Lakshmi materializes in the real world and grants that wish. We still have no record of Ascians telling the Ananta how to summon Lakshmi though. No crystals are used either. We do know the Ananta are crazy good at using aether to manipulate gemstones and metal so they do seem to be a race with a lot of natural aether.

So it is possible to summon Primals without the directions so long as there's enough aether and faith/belief in an idea around.

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When we go to Amaurot, we're told that we effectively have zero capacity for creation magic, the Ancient seeing this literally can't believe it because even newborn babes have an intrinsic affinity for it and we have no capability at all. Modern magic is, at best, a pale shadow of what creation magic actually is.

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That is not what is said of us in the quest. In fact, I'd say this is trying to turn the entire point of that quest on it's head. Which is that the Creation Magic the Ancients used has way too many parallels to how we use Magic in general.

It is not that we have "no capability for creation magic"; it is that we have a low creative potential. And in the very next sentence, we are told that that isn't a problem because there are tools Amarot uses if low creative potential is a problem. We're told that we can repurpose the aether of something else that already exists into the aether that we'll need to use Creation Magic. What we do have problems with is actually channeling the aether the way we're supposed to, instead of the thing we are supposed to be Creating, we get a Lightning Crystal Cluster... which a catalyst used in crafting, of all things...

We also get told in that quest that concepts used for Creation Magic are often recorded on crystals for further use. Which matches up very well how the shape aether is supposed to take is recorded in Soul Stones (all jobs), geometry of gemstones (carbuncles) and... literally any time in the game aether crystals are used to store some type of aetherial data for access later (too many times to count).

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She [Hydaelyn] turned a bunch of living things into dead, sundered things, which are inherently different from what they were before, so I'd say that's a change.

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When Emet-Selch describes Sundering to us, he never says the thing being sundered dies (and he's using Ryne, something alive, as the example). What he says is that Sundering somehow splits up something to make two of the same thing whose characteristics are half the strength of the thing when it was whole. Or in the case of Zoidark and the World, there was 14 of them, each with 1/14 strength characteristics of what they were before.

I think if Sundering did kill things, Emet-Selch would have been more than happy to parade it around as an example of why Hydaelyn was so bad. Also, if everything that was Sundered did die, than life itself wouldn't be around at all. Hydaelyn didn't just Sunder Zoidark, she Sundered the whole world. So anything that happened to Zoidark, happened to the world. For that matter, the Ascians never talk about Zoidark as if he were dead; just as if he's not whole. That Ement-Selch never menitons death as a by-product or effect of Sundering is significant since he has no reason to conceal that from us.

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I'm pretty sure we have zero reason to believe that Zodiark post-sundering is just "Zodiark, but 1/14th as powerful". This is one of the reasons why I think it's apt to describe him as "dead", because whatever state he exists in now is probably so broken that it can't be described as a thinking or acting being anymore.

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The Ascians sure think Zoidark is alive. And if all the normal life can still function after being Sundered, than Zoidark, a being much, much stronger than that life can also still function.

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We're literally told that it does on an innate level.

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No we aren't. There's also all the evidence throughout history that we can move our own aether around just fine. To the point we can create Primals by accident even. So even if someone did tell us our ability to move aether around was somehow stunted so much as to not let us use Creation Magic, they've been proven wrong just by how the world works.

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That's only a counter-argument if you assume those end-result Primals we see aren't flawed concepts. Lakshmi and Shiva, for example, bear little to no resemblance to how they should actually look - Shiva was a bastardized cross between Ysayle's incorrect ideal of Saint Shiva and Halone. Lakshmi is supposed to be the peak of Ananta beauty, but she was summoned with the appearance of a human. And the Titan summoned by Ga Bu was heavily mentally deficient and maddened. The concept of Thordan and his knights was cemented over the course of a thousand years, it's not surprising they match the venerated ideal of him.

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You're assuming all the concepts the Ancients created didn't have flaws. Which we know they did. The quest you refer to further up has a character who talks about how hard keeping focus on a singular concept while doing Creation Magic is. And how one tiny distraction can lead to aberrations in the Creation. Like how an eagle landing nearby the person caused the lion they were Creating to have eagle wings by accident.

The Creation Magic of the Ancients is just as "buggy" as ours is. That the concepts that are summoned as primals are warped a bit by their summoner's view of the concept is proof of how similar we are to the Ancients, not how different we are.

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"Bringing an idea into being" is an extremely nebulous and wide-scoped sort of criteria. The mechanics of Carbuncles, Egis, and Fairies aren't similar to creation magic beyond the broad concept of "aether taking a form".

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"Aether taking a form" is an excellent description of what Creation Magic is. It is nebulous and wide-scoped on purpose because Creation Magic is a very, very, very wide-scoped kind of magic. The only "real" limit on it is your imagination. We see limitations like how much aether a concept takes to create being overcome in Amarot in a variety of ways. We see ways of recording concepts long-term in crystals so that people other than their creator can make use of them.

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I don't think this is really something we can argue here. You're told "You have no ability to use creation magic", therefore, the magic we have access to is not creation magic, certainly not how the Ancients would have any conception of it.

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This is false and not anywhere in the game. It would be more accurate to say we are using Creation Magic in some capacity all the time, we just didn't realize that is what it (or rather, what magic as a whole) really is.

Here is the actual text of what we are told, which is a lot more complicated than "you can't do Creation Magic".

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Pardon me for asking, but your creative potential is, um...relatively low, is it not? We are trained to assess these things, and I fear that you do not possess the ability to express this concept in physical form. It's almost as though you completely lack it, though that can't possibly be...
But regardless of the reason, you needn't worry. We have special tools that may be used to address this very eventuality.
I will furnish you with an aetheric rope you can use to restrain one of the misbegotten cubuses that congregate in the plaza north of the Akadaemia Anyder.
You will need to weaken your quarry before you can reliably bind them, but once you have, you can repurpose their energies to create your own robes.
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You have done well, little one. Allow me to siphon its energies and prepare the matrix for you. It should only take a moment...
Here you are: a creation matrix that you may use to generate your own robes.
The concept is inscribed upon the crystal, which has been infused with the aether of the beast you brought me.
...What? Why are you looking at me as though you do not know how to channel the powers of creation? It is as natural as breathing─even a newborn babe has the instinct. Even if your potential is lacking, as one of our people, you must surely know what to do...

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As a final thought, there is also a very big difference between "can't" and "don't know how to yet". And... if us using Azem's Crystal in 5.3 is anything to go by, we definetly have the capacity to use our aether like an Ancient did once we have the right knowledge.

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Not all of them are. King Moggle Mog, Susano and Lakshmi have... nothing to do with Ascian involvement.

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Not directly, but the method for focus+aether=Primal was propagated throughout the world by the Ascians. Even accidental cases of Primal summoning draw on this basic concept.

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No crystals are used either. We do know the Ananta are crazy good at using aether to manipulate gemstones and metal so they do seem to be a race with a lot of natural aether.

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I believe it's stated the first summoning of Lakshmi was facilitated by the gemstones (crystals) the Ananta mother had on hand, in the flash to it we see the crystal atop her headdress glowing with aether. Later on the Ananta plant crystals in the Ala Mhigan throne room to facilitate the summoning.

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It is not that we have "no capability for creation magic"; it is that we have a low creative potential.

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This is specifically what we're told: "Pardon me for asking, but your creative potential is, um... Relatively low, is it not? We are trained to assess these things, and I fear that you do not posses the ability to express this concept in physical form. It's almost as though you completely lack it, though that can't possibly be..." and later after a concept matrix and aether is prepared for you, "... What? Why are you looking at me as though you do not know how to channel the powers of creation? It is as natural as breathing - Even a newborn babe has the instinct. Even if your potential is lacking, as one of our people, you must surely know what to do..."

So, despite being given a crystal infused with the concept of the robe and the necessary aether required to bring it into existence, the player still lacks the capability to actually create the robe. The process was as simplified as it could possibly be, but whereas even newborns can create as naturally as breathing, the player fails to do so. This, despite the WoL being a master of aetheric manipulation regardless of what job they happen to be.

We have to remember here, creation magic entails creating something physically. With magic and summoning, aether is willed to take certain forms or produce certain effects, but it doesn't substantiate wholly into physical matter. Even Primals require more and more aether to retain their semblance of physicality, and when they are spent the energy making them up simply cannot maintain shape anymore, and dissipates into nothing.

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When Emet-Selch describes Sundering to us, he never says the thing being sundered dies (and he's using Ryne, something alive, as the example). What he says is that Sundering somehow splits up something to make two of the same thing whose characteristics are half the strength of the thing when it was whole. Or in the case of Zoidark and the World, there was 14 of them, each with 1/14 strength characteristics of what they were before.

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Okay, so where are the Ancients, and why is life now intrinsically different from them? If the Sundering didn't return them to the Lifestream in so doing, they should still be around.

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Also, if everything that was Sundered did die, than life itself wouldn't be around at all. Hydaelyn didn't just Sunder Zoidark, she Sundered the whole world. So anything that happened to Zoidark, happened to the world. For that matter, the Ascians never talk about Zoidark as if he were dead; just as if he's not whole.

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It's Hydaelyn's modus operandi to foster the advent and spread of life. She calls life on the current world "her children", so from that I feel it's safe to assume that she is responsible for the recreation of life across the shards. And as for Zodiark, it's said that the Ascians strive for his resurrection, from that I take it that it's reasonable to describe him as being "dead".

And let's just think about this situation mechanically, exactly how can anyone or anything survive the process of being sundered into fourteen separate shards displaced across both space and time? Are we to believe that if you were an individual at the time of the Sundering, suddenly there are simply 14 copies of you that are simply 1/14th as "powerful", whatever that exactly means? What happens to your mind and body? Your soul and the aether of your body was split into 14, but you continued living - Until, what, dying of natural causes due to having a shortened lifespan? What about anyone that was already older than a hundred or so years, arguably practically all Ancients? Wouldn't they just drop dead on the spot anyway? How could you maintain your consciousness through this process? None of it makes any sense.

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And if all the normal life can still function after being Sundered, than Zoidark, a being much, much stronger than that life can also still function.

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The Ascians don't think sundered life is "functional" to their standards though. Emet describes you as "not really being alive". So if that's the description of you, why isn't it the description of Zodiark?

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There's also all the evidence throughout history that we can move our own aether around just fine.

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I don't think it's accurate to describe creation magic as simply "moving aether around". If anything it seems to convert aetheric energy to matter - I'd go as far as to say that it appears to have a positive conversion rate, IE that you can create more mass than you actually have energy. Emet is able to create all of phantom Amaurot without actually using an impossible amount of aether to do so. With modern magic and summoning, you need increasing amounts of aether to produce sustained forms and effects, and even then what is made is not fully substantiated, it disappears as soon as energy stops entering the system to fuel it.

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You're assuming all the concepts the Ancients created didn't have flaws.

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I'm not assuming that, it was possible for the Ancients to produce flawed concepts. However, what they did and what we do is worlds apart, again it bears little real similarity.

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"Aether taking a form" is an excellent description of what Creation Magic is. It is nebulous and wide-scoped on purpose because Creation Magic is a very, very, very wide-scoped kind of magic. The only "real" limit on it is your imagination.

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You're talking two different things here. Yes, creation magic can be used to create almost anything. That doesn't mean that creation magic is almost anything.

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This is false and not anywhere in the game.

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The quotes you're supplying say that.

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As a final thought, there is also a very big difference between "can't" and "don't know how to yet".

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The attendant says "it's almost as though you completely lack it", then when you turn in the quest he says that even a newborn baby is capable of it. You never do use creation magic to make the cloak either, WoL fails to do so. I don't understand why you think this supports the argument that all magic is creation magic, when we aren't able to make the slightest use of it in that instance, and are directly told that it's as though we completely lack the ability.

Again, if you want to define modern magic that way, it is so far removed from the Ancient's own conception of creation magic that they cannot even recognize it as such.

I'll also say, tapping into Azem's crystal to summon allies to our side isn't the same thing as using creation magic, we have no reason to think one is equivalent to the other.

My personal theory is Sharlayan is one of cities of the Ancients. The side quests of Amarout mention a sister city. Numerous Sharlayan ruins near Idyllshire and Sharlayan type dungeons name things after Greek routed words. But the dungeons surrounding Amoarout also have Greek routed names. I think the ground work has been setup for Sharalayan to be the Ancients that followed and summoned Hydaelyn. Their isolationist tendency is probably to hide this history from the rest of the world. And makes a pretty exciting turn of plot when all of the scions are either from Sharlayan or have a Sharlayan education.

I think the untied up plot thread of Shadowbringers revolves around Venat, the Ancient who lead Hydaelyn fraction of the Ancients. Notice in the scene following Anamnesis Anyder, he is speaking to 12 others which could easily be recognized as Hydaelyn's Ancient Convocation--furthermore, they claim the act of summoning Hydaelyn is a permenant solution and Zodiark's summoning will just extend the time before the disastrous end (assuming here this is sound). They also say they have had trouble recruiting the "defector" who I'm guessing is us as Azem. Venat does set about sacrificing himself to be the heart of Hydaelyn because he feels he is the ideal candidate, but does say that he won't be gone from the world and his form will be his choice. Given what we've been shown regarding Elidibus, we can guess that Venat is probably a primal and still potentially alive.

Then given that Hydaelyn was successful in sundering the world and sealing Zodiark, putting the Ascians in a bad situation, its not a stretch for the winning Ancients to go on living peacefully. Furthermore, (and I couldn't find the source of this interview) there was an interview with Yoshi-P and one of the writers shortly following Shadowbringers where they were asked what the Ancients looked like under their robes and it was said that its a significant lore reason and can't be revealed at this point. I'm assuming that because the Ancients look like the races of Final Fantasy 14, who are also (partly) the citizens of Sharlayan. Finally, the 12 gods of humaniod races are most likey the 12 remaining members of Hydaelyn's Ancient Convocation.

And if we want to go deeper here (because at this point its pure speculation), I'm going out on a limb and say that Louisoix was Venat. Although this would require a slight retcon of the Phoenix scene from coils, all it will be is a reinterpretation that Venat the primal/Louisoix who summons his old friends (the 12) to empower him which is already the Phoenix to defeat Bahamut (instead of it happening in reverse which is the current interpretation--the 12 made him into a primal). The lore surrounding our character and Battle of Carteneau is we were in 1.0 and Louisoix sent us to the beginning of ARR before becoming Phoenix (which is pretty heavy handed when you realize that you wake up on a ship/carriage that is also carrying the twins who are the direct inheritors of Lousioix's legacy) but we just don't remember the past (regardless if you are legacy or not, the 1.0 players only get a few dialogue nods from npcs). Only Venat, the heart of Hydaelyn would have the knowledge of who we are to recognize saving us over anyone else on the battlefield. While Emet had children that eventually gave us Emperor Varis and Zenos, it stands to reason Venat can have the twin's father and then the twins. The only fault I find with this theory is this means maybe the Twin's destiny will have them preform the sealing spell with Tupsimati (and has been missing since 3.5), which have managed to kill a primal Phoenix and Papalymo (supposedly the best student of Louisoix), seal something stronger than Bahamut or Shinryu/Nidhogg--frankly Zodiark.

Sorry, longer than expected. Tl;dr: Sharlayan is an Ancient's city on the source that followed Hydaelyn. Venat the leader of the Hydaelyn faction is like Elidibus and could be a primal and still alive. Further speculation says Venat was Louisoix, making the Twins more important previously realized.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Furthermore, (and I couldn't find the source of this interview) there was an interview with Yoshi-P and one of the writers shortly following Shadowbringers where they were asked what the Ancients looked like under their robes and it was said that its a significant lore reason and can't be revealed at this point. I'm assuming that because the Ancients look like the races of Final Fantasy 14, who are also (partly) the citizens of Sharlayan. Finally, the 12 gods of humaniod races are most likey the 12 remaining members of Hydaelyn's Ancient Convocation.

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No, seeing that they were the normal races wouldn't be a lore reason why it couldn't be shown, since seeing that wouldn't really change anything. However...imagine if they in fact looked more like the various "Beast Tribes" we've encountered. Amaljaa, Kobolds, Sahagin, Sylphs, Kojin, etc. That would be a true lore twist, now wouldn't it? That the current playable races are in fact the ones created to be sacrificed, and the beast tribes were the original inhabitants of the planet before the Calamity.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

My personal theory is Sharlayan is one of cities of the Ancients. The side quests of Amarout mention a sister city. Numerous Sharlayan ruins near Idyllshire and Sharlayan type dungeons name things after Greek routed words. But the dungeons surrounding Amoarout also have Greek routed names. I think the ground work has been setup for Sharalayan to be the Ancients that followed and summoned Hydaelyn. Their isolationist tendency is probably to hide this history from the rest of the world. And makes a pretty exciting turn of plot when all of the scions are either from Sharlayan or have a Sharlayan education.

I think the untied up plot thread of Shadowbringers revolves around Venat, the Ancient who lead Hydaelyn fraction of the Ancients. Notice in the scene following Anamnesis Anyder, he is speaking to 12 others which could easily be recognized as Hydaelyn's Ancient Convocation--furthermore, they claim the act of summoning Hydaelyn is a permenant solution and Zodiark's summoning will just extend the time before the disastrous end (assuming here this is sound). They also say they have had trouble recruiting the "defector" who I'm guessing is us as Azem. Venat does set about sacrificing himself to be the heart of Hydaelyn because he feels he is the ideal candidate, but does say that he won't be gone from the world and his form will be his choice. Given what we've been shown regarding Elidibus, we can guess that Venat is probably a primal and still potentially alive.

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While I agree with a large part of this, I feel compelled to point out that Venat is a woman —besides the obvious symbolism of having a goddess and a god and male and female and the whole thing, it stands to reason that Hydaelyn being distinctively female is due to having a female core. Venat's voice is also /very/ similar to Hydaelyn's Japanese voice. While in FFXII the Occuria are genderless, there is a predominance of male / female notes in their voices, with Gerun being more male-like and Venat being female-like. We could argue what exactly entails the concept of gender to the Ancients —my personal take is that their philosophy was akin to the Dotharl: flesh is momentary and susceptible to change, while the soul is unique and eternal— but in this particular case I feel it is relevant for Venat to be a woman. Any other Ancient may have no issue being reborn as the opposite sex (I wonder if in one of his many, many lives, Emet-Selch lived as a woman?, stray thought) but having the Heart of a female goddess take on a male form sounds... incoherent to me. So I would say yes to your theory except for the Louisoix part. He was a very fervent follower of Hydaelyn, that very much is true.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

I did not know of the play (I will not claim I know much of Shakespeare's work, here you would only study it if you course a degree on English Literature) but to have a general idea I checked the Wikipedia and dear Lord. The Tempest-area-of-Norvrandt is brimming to references to The Tempest-Shakespeare-play. Not just because of Prospero and Ferdinand (great catch on the name's meaning) as you mentioned, but there are zones of the Tempest named after characters in the play. Specifically, the Caliban Gap / Gorge and the Trinculo Shelf. This incidentally makes the Tempest being a combination of two great English classics: The Tempest by William Shakespeare in the seabed part, and Utopia by Thomas Moore in Amaurot's part. Very theatrical. Then again, it is Emet we are talking about. Of course he would be theatrical. :D

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As a literature scholar, this meaning wasn't lost on me. Furthermore, The Tempest has a few unique qualities that set it apart from other Shakespearean plays. First its the only Shakespeare play set in the new world--which at the time of Shakespeare's writing was full of possibles and misunderstood (and the supernatural was a significant thing in that time period too, because it predates the Enlightenment and the reliance of science). It was generally thought that new world was the source of the supernatural (mirroring the Ancients and their creation magic as the source of final fantasy world's fantastical things).

Prospero, a character from the play, was one of the few roles we know Shakespeare played himself. Prospero it should be noted intends to orchestrate the entire plot of the play, much like the author of a play, so it works out how he intends it. The parallel here is Emet, who as recreated a puppet Amarout to have things go how he intends.

The symbolism continues when we find out that this play was popular at the end of the Shakespeare's acting career--at career that allowed him to retire (a new concept for that time period). Prospero as Shakespeare and by extention through Final Fantasy Emet, give their farewell speech (or retirement speech) in this play where they echo the significance of what has come before to inform the present. Shakespeare does this a send off to his career, but Emet does it for his civilization which he has struggled for all of recorded time.

Although the reference was very heavy handed, it still very fitting in the context of the revelations Shadowbringers has brought to the plot of the game. I would also argue this reference is what makes Emet have depth of character and likable, even though he is kind of a jerk. But that is an argument for another time and place.

I can see Sharlayan as being loosely related to the Venat faction or Azem, but not as directly, especially considering that the people that hail form there don't really tower over highlanders (let not forget that the Scions that went to Aumarot were mostly Sharlayan and they were also refered to as kids bu the Aumarotine shades). It would explain their isolationist tendencies and their desire to keep knowledge away from the world at all cost (as evedenced by the hits on Leveva) as some but not all of them would likely be among the few that is aware of the true nature of the Source.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

While I agree with a large part of this, I feel compelled to point out that Venat is a woman —besides the obvious symbolism of having a goddess and a god and male and female and the whole thing, it stands to reason that Hydaelyn being distinctively female is due to having a female core. Venat's voice is also /very/ similar to Hydaelyn's Japanese voice. While in FFXII the Occuria are genderless, there is a predominance of male / female notes in their voices, with Gerun being more male-like and Venat being female-like. We could argue what exactly entails the concept of gender to the Ancients —my personal take is that their philosophy was akin to the Dotharl: flesh is momentary and susceptible to change, while the soul is unique and eternal— but in this particular case I feel it is relevant for Venat to be a woman. Any other Ancient may have no issue being reborn as the opposite sex (I wonder if in one of his many, many lives, Emet-Selch lived as a woman?, stray thought) but having the Heart of a female goddess take on a male form sounds... incoherent to me. So I would say yes to your theory except for the Louisoix part. He was a very fervent follower of Hydaelyn, that very much is true.

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I rewatched the Venat Anemesis Anyder scenes again. Venat is not referred to as either gender. Only Zodiark and Hydaelyn have genders. But when we talk of the Ancients as having creation magic, I'm sure they can change genders on whim. Furthermore, Venat claims they can take whatever form they want. So Venat can be a woman, make a female primal-demi-god, then change to a man.

This also extends to us as Azem, obviously we can be reincarnated as either gender. So even though it hasn't been touched upon very heavily, the choice of gender isn't significant unless its to through us off the trail of the plot.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I can see Sharlayan as being loosely related to the Venat faction or Azem, but not as directly, especially considering that the people that hail form there don't really tower over highlanders (let not forget that the Scions that went to Aumarot were mostly Sharlayan and they were also refered to as kids bu the Aumarotine shades). It would explain their isolationist tendencies and their desire to keep knowledge away from the world at all cost (as evedenced by the hits on Leveva) as some but not all of them would likely be among the few that is aware of the true nature of the Source.

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I think the Ancients being tall are part of the creation of Emet, not a direct reflection of their true height, in the sense he feels they were larger than life. If this was true all of the Ascians would tower over us when they reveal themselves in their black robes and masks. The argument can also be made Amarout was made larger to symbolize our infant understanding of their culture--in other words, we're intended to look at it through a child's eyes.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, seeing that they were the normal races wouldn't be a lore reason why it couldn't be shown, since seeing that wouldn't really change anything. However...imagine if they in fact looked more like the various "Beast Tribes" we've encountered. Amaljaa, Kobolds, Sahagin, Sylphs, Kojin, etc. That would be a true lore twist, now wouldn't it? That the current playable races are in fact the ones created to be sacrificed, and the beast tribes were the original inhabitants of the planet before the Calamity.

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But they won't be the beast tribes, as a few were intentionally created by the Allagans, and the rest were creations of the Ancients. Furthermore, Ascians body hop a lot and yet none have taken the form a member of a beast tribe, always as one of the humaniod races.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I think the Ancients being tall are part of the creation of Emet, not a direct reflection of their true height, in the sense he feels they were larger than life. If this was true all of the Ascians would tower over us when they reveal themselves in their black robes and masks. The argument can also be made Amarout was made larger to symbolize our infant understanding of their culture--in other words, we're intended to look at it through a child's eyes.

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Venat and her companions were just as large and they were actual hologram recordings, not creations of Emet.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

I rewatched the Venat Anemesis Anyder scenes again. Venat is not referred to as either gender. Only Zodiark and Hydaelyn have genders. But when we talk of the Ancients as having creation magic, I'm sure they can change genders on whim. Furthermore, Venat claims they can take whatever form they want. So Venat can be a woman, make a female primal-demi-god, then change to a man.

This also extends to us as Azem, obviously we can be reincarnated as either gender. So even though it hasn't been touched upon very heavily, the choice of gender isn't significant unless its to through us off the trail of the plot.

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While Venat isn't referred to with gendered pronouns in EN, most other languages lack English's unusual gender neutrality as a language. Every other language uses gendered pronouns, and those refer to Venat as a woman.

Reincarnation is quite a different thing to using magicks to alter one's sex.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Venat and her companions were just as large and they were actual hologram recordings, not creations of Emet.

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Not to mention that the dungeon where Venat's Hologram is shown has chairs and tables in there. Those chairs are bigger than my character who is the tallest Hyur Midlander and if he tried to sit in it he would need a booster seat just to see a little above the table. Its also needs to be pointed out that that Dungeon is not a recreation but one of the actual surviving Amarout buildings within the Tempest.

Quoted above poster due to adding on ^_^

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While Venat isn't referred to with gendered pronouns in EN, most other languages lack English's unusual gender neutrality as a language. Every other language uses gendered pronouns, and those refer to Venat as a woman.

Reincarnation is quite a different thing to using magicks to alter one's sex.

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Aye, I can confirm. I mean, I play in English, but I am from Spain and we lack the neutral gender pronoun; we have masculine and femenine words and articles for abstract concept, items, you name it. I remember getting used to the forms of neutral gender in English being one of the hardest parts.

Right now I do not recall if in FFXII's Spanish localization Venat was addressed as female... I would have to check. I do know that in French, our Venat is openly referred to as a woman. But at the time of the previous post I did not remember that, what I had in mind was the English cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

tallest Hyur

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Sorry to nitpick, but Rannie appears to be a midlander. The tallest Hyur are Highlanders. :P

But yeah, even Roes look like kids in that furniture.

From what I gather, in-game lore-wise, we all know about as much as the sound as we did when first made privy to it: not much at all. However, looking at it from the meta level of how FFXIV likes to incorporate elements from other FF games and remixes them, I wouldn't be surprised if "the sound" was caused by a being similar to Jenova or Lavos, a something from a distant star that embedded itself within the star (which I guess we should call Zodiark, since Zodiark the primal was "the will of the star") and then awoke.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

But I digress. What I consider interesting is something that is generally overlooked and it could be a clue about the nature of the Sound and the Terminus: the DNC quest, specifically the Kriegstanz and the Totentanz. The "dance of the damned" is negative feelings taking hold of people and controlling their bodies, and the Kriegstanz forces those energies out, and curiously, the forms they take are eerily similar to the Terminus monstrosities. Now, the narration of Amaurot mentions a passage of the Book of Revelations that goes more or less like: "But it was neither fang or claw, but our very sins, stacked to the heavens where they took root." The Ancients' society tried actively to get rid of any negative feeling, to foment peace and cooperation, but going by Azem's role, they were not strangers to issues and threats. Perhaps, subconsciously, they "stacked to the heavens" their fears until they burst and caused the Terminus and the Sound, which could be the collective suffering and fear of the Ancients throughout the ages that they cast aside. We would need further insight into the Ancient society, true, but to me that sounds (no pun intended) rather similar to the Totentanz phenomena.

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If there was a build-up of negative thoughts that went unexpressed, it might have accumulated in the Lifestream/Underworld until the entire star had a spiritual breakdown. It reminds me of how auspices may sometimes succumb to their aramitama and become feral beings of chaos. Just as how the Mad Auspice Koryu was so utterly consumed by his aramitama to become an apocalyptic beast, the Star was consumed by....something and began the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

If there was a build-up of negative thoughts that went unexpressed, it might have accumulated in the Lifestream/Underworld until the entire star had a spiritual breakdown. It reminds me of how auspices may sometimes succumb to their aramitama and become feral beings of chaos. Just as how the Mad Auspice Koryu was so utterly consumed by his aramitama to become an apocalyptic beast, the Star was consumed by....something and began the Final Days.

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During one of the quests in Amaurot, an Ancient says this:

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Disparity engenders feelings of want and resentment, which degrade the bonds of fellowship. Thus do we encourage creators to share and share alike, else we risk kindling the embers of covetousness and violence that ever smolder in the hearts of all.

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Initially it's easy to overlook this, but I think it has new significance given several lines in Elidibus' theme.

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Oh we can dive in, fighting death's ember embrace...

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dragged through the flame,
to rise from the ashes!

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Venat and her companions were just as large and they were actual hologram recordings, not creations of Emet.

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You're probably right. But it is possible, because its a projection, that they are our size and the projection throws it out of proportion.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Sorry to nitpick, but Rannie appears to be a midlander. The tallest Hyur are Highlanders. :P

But yeah, even Roes look like kids in that furniture.

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Well duh hes a midlander =P its like seeing them like you would see the actress in the kids show Big Comfy Couch? I think the name od that program was

I thought we'd asked at some point in a lore Q&A if the Ancients were really that size and they said no...? Maybe I'm misremembering entirely or maybe that intent just got forgotten and drifted off-track as they had more reasons to use the character models that don't fit with the "Emet's illusion for dramatic effect" origin.

(Kinda like they forgot that Thancred's real body shouldn't match his appearance in the First.)

Also, to continue to support my theory, the short story "Through His Eyes" from Tales from the Shadows tells how Emet and Hythlodaeus deal with the phoenix. It seems a soul is merged with the phoenix when it is created, which doesn't seem to fit with their creation magic laws. So Emet summons all his power and deals with the problem. Here it doesn't say what he does. I assume we are to speculate, so I believe he made a new Amaroutian because it had a soul.

But the story continues well into the future during Emet's reign in the Garlean Empire, where he finds disdain for the bodies of all the creatures in existence. So this juxtaposition is meant to show the reverence for the phoenix but the disgust of mankind. Where the phoenix was considered a thing to be respected, mankind is not. In this context mankind is the lesser because it is a fragment of a complete soul instead a whole being.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I thought we'd asked at some point in a lore Q&A if the Ancients were really that size and they said no...? Maybe I'm misremembering entirely or maybe that intent just got forgotten and drifted off-track as they had more reasons to use the character models that don't fit with the "Emet's illusion for dramatic effect" origin.

(Kinda like they forgot that Thancred's real body shouldn't match his appearance in the First.)

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I think someone asked if the ancients really didn't have facial features like how Emet's shades portray them. And the devs said no, they did actually have faces beneath the masks.

... Not that we've really seen any evidence of that in echo visions or the holograms or Elidibus' lack of a face in the end, but yeah. lol

EDIT: Found it:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

7. Did the Ascians Ancients really look the way that we see them in Emet-Selch's illusion, or is he making them look different for "dramatic effect"?

Oda: Despite the fact that they have kind of a glow to them, like a ghost or phantom, the culture from which the Ascians came did indeed wear robes and masks like that. The Ascians outfits descend from that tradition.

Yoshi: I'd like to highlight a point of confusion in our community: we are not calling all Ancient entities Ascians. The beings you see in Amaurot are not "Ascians" but the illusions of its Ancient citizens. So we can tell you for sure that the Ancient people you see inhabiting Amaurot did indeed wear robes and masks like those. When you look at them, however, you notice that individuals lack any real distinctive features. They are a bit blurry, and look a bit like aliens. This is an inaccurate representation. The actual Ancient people all looked different, but this is not reflected in their representation via the illusion. This is perhaps why some think Hythlodaeus and the apparition Emet-Selch sees when he looks at you might be the same person, but they are both imperfect illusions. Ancient people had faces just as unique as regular people. Hythlodaeus is also wearing a different mask than the apparition...

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Okay, I misremembered exactly what was confirmed, but still.

The Ancients have unique faces but that isn't shown in the "imperfect illusions" we see in Emet's recreation... except now they keep using the same alien-looking character models from those "illusions" as more solid recordings of real events or the direct manifestations of Elidibus and Hades in 5.3.

The real world reason could simply be they either arn't ready to reveal or don't have models for them.
In game however one could explain the continued use of the "imperfect illusion" as we can't comprehend their true appearance so our mind just fills in the blanks and in Elidibus's case his memories were failing him, which could be why he sees them and himself the same way.
Or really they all just wear those robes and masks almost all the time in public and so we've simply not seen a memory where they're not yet.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Also, to continue to support my theory, the short story "Through His Eyes" from Tales from the Shadows tells how Emet and Hythlodaeus deal with the phoenix. It seems a soul is merged with the phoenix when it is created, which doesn't seem to fit with their creation magic laws. So Emet summons all his power and deals with the problem. Here it doesn't say what he does. I assume we are to speculate, so I believe he made a new Amaroutian because it had a soul.

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What happened was that someone made the Phoenix Creation Magic as a bird with healing magic, but a soul that was on it's way to the Lifestream (IE: the soul was dying) got caught in the Creation Magic by accident and warped it. The soul didn't want to die, so it was fighting the pull of the Lifestream. Hades was the best Ancient when it came to seeing and manipulating souls and the magic of the Lifestream, so Hythlodaeus asked him to separate the Creation Magic Phoenix and the soul in it so the soul could join the Lifestream like it was supposed to.

One of the things "Through His Eyes" makes clear is that "souls" can only come about from life naturally being born. Creation Magic cannot make a "soul". At least, not like how "souls" naturally are.

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Originally Posted by Through His Eyes

"A soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth─anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it─a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

What happened was that someone made the Phoenix Creation Magic as a bird with healing magic, but a soul that was on it's way to the Lifestream (IE: the soul was dying) got caught in the Creation Magic by accident and warped it. The soul didn't want to die, so it was fighting the pull of the Lifestream. Hades was the best Ancient when it came to seeing and manipulating souls and the magic of the Lifestream, so Hythlodaeus asked him to separate the Creation Magic Phoenix and the soul in it so the soul could join the Lifestream like it was supposed to.

One of the things "Through His Eyes" makes clear is that "souls" can only come about from life naturally being born. Creation Magic cannot make a "soul". At least, not like how "souls" naturally are.

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Creation magicks cannot create a soul. However, the Anima Weapon questline shows that, through the process of memory and catalysts, a soul can indeed be made; that is the whole point of Heavensward's relic, creating a sentient weapon. Then again, this shows one logical but fatal flaw of the Ancients: though they did not compromise the land's aether in their arts, they relied too much in a single discipline, which was creation magicks. Through His Eyes mentions that Amaurot has no shortage of mages, but in a society as peaceful as theirs, how many of them would be martially prepared? We see many Amaurotines dropping like flies when the Terminus monsters attack and with their power they should have been able to repel the threat... at least more effectively. Of course, what is the conclusion a society relying that much on creation magicks would reach in that dire situation? "Let us bring forth with our creation magicks an entity capable of stopping this." They could not create souls, so they needed someone (Elidibus) to become the core to give it sentience. And we know that when summoning Guardian Forces, the Ancients more often than not offered up their own life force. So there you have the ingredients for your very first elder primal. You know how they say, "when all you have is a hammer..." I believe that was the true problem with the Ancients, not because they tapped too much on the land's aether (they did not) but because they tapped too much in their own. Emet himself, who shaped both Allag and Garlemald, nations well-known for their great technology, was utterly baffled at how exactly the Crystal Exarch traveled through time and the Rift and successfully summoned the WoL/D; he admits to the Exarch that not even he could have done so, at least keeping our flesh and all. Actually, if he kidnapped G'raha was not because he could not control the Crystal Tower (he could do that) but because he lacked the knowledge G'raha had about the method for time-space traversing, so of course he would need him alive.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Okay, I misremembered exactly what was confirmed, but still.

The Ancients have unique faces but that isn't shown in the "imperfect illusions" we see in Emet's recreation... except now they keep using the same alien-looking character models from those "illusions" as more solid recordings of real events or the direct manifestations of Elidibus and Hades in 5.3.

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IRL casualty of Covid, maybe?

Hopefully that'll be patched, or at least fixed for anything in 6.0.

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Originally Posted by ShadowMeowth

Aye, I can confirm. I mean, I play in English, but I am from Spain and we lack the neutral gender pronoun; we have masculine and femenine words and articles for abstract concept, items, you name it. I remember getting used to the forms of neutral gender in English being one of the hardest parts.

Right now I do not recall if in FFXII's Spanish localization Venat was addressed as female... I would have to check. I do know that in French, our Venat is openly referred to as a woman. But at the time of the previous post I did not remember that, what I had in mind was the English cutscene.

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Hola yo también soy de España. He leido varios de tus comentarios y me parece increible el nivel de lore que llevas. Puedo conseguir en algun lugar tus comentarios del lore pero en español? Si no, deberias iniciar esa aventura, te ira bien. Asi solo sean tus pensamientos sobre lo que puede pasar a nivel de lore y desarrollo de la historia.

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Originally Posted by JahD

Hola yo también soy de España. He leido varios de tus comentarios y me parece increible el nivel de lore que llevas. Puedo conseguir en algun lugar tus comentarios del lore pero en español? Si no, deberias iniciar esa aventura, te ira bien. Asi solo sean tus pensamientos sobre lo que puede pasar a nivel de lore y desarrollo de la historia.

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(Contesto en inglés por deferencia a la mayoría de gente del foro, pero vaya, un placer ver a paisanos por aquí.) :D

Every two weeks on Friday I am part of a news / lore FFXIV podcast in Spanish on Twitch and YouTube. The channel is Base Avalancha in both platforms. By myself, when I have the time, I translate stuff from the game to Spanish, including cutscenes in my YouTube channel; as in most of the Internet, I go by the nickname of ShadowMeowth. If you want to contact directly with me to not turn this thread into a chatroom (and I apologize to everyone else for this post not being related to the topic) the surest way to do so is my Twitter, @MeowthTheStarry. :)