So i have been doing CC and AV everyday for the last 2 weeks

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Originally Posted by Nixius

You mean like Sea/Sky from XI? I can get along with those, but I don't think such content which requires a lot of thought and development will be here pre 2.0. I think to be quite honest this content is to keep people occupied until 2.0 - at which point I HOPE we will get more imaginative and interesting dungeons etc

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i think you hit the nail on the head... however with a little ingenuity it doesnt have to be that way.

to implement my example above all they need to do is implement one more mob.. hell maybe they can ditch the nm and have 2 items from each area instead of one- which can then be traded to an npc... all that is required is imagination

there are 4 world HNM sitting in their deck chairs drinking pina colada's while everyone runs past them.. what a waste!

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

It is in SE's interest to make gil ^.^;

Please keep in mind the following key things:
1) What one person considers fun may not be considered fun by an other. So SE has to decide whose fun should be addressed.
2) What one person wants NOW may actually be decremental to SE in the long run, so SE has to balance instant gratification versus long time satisfaction.

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Thank you.

You have said it much better than I could.

I don't think a program can compute luck.

Anyways, I do find it interesting that speed run = higher probability of DL armor dropping according to many players on Masamune.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

this is a little short sighted, do you think it is reasonable to lose subs because your game is boring?

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"They chose to die, because they had hope."
- Lady Yunalesca

Darklight drops should be rare, and take a great deal of difficulty to get. However I don't think running CC/AV 300 times should be how this is done. I understand that currently this is how they need to do it because they have to drag out the content, but for 2.0 this will be unacceptable.

Also i've found that Darklight drops when we screw up and have lower time over a Speed Run. Luck? Who knows.

They just need to get rid of Time Attack and give another way to recieve the best gear from the dungeon. Japanese obviously hate it, so hopefully next set of dungeons they release won't have this. Time Attack is DUMB.

SE needs to

Hard Dungeon + Increased Drop Rate - Time Attack + Something better than TA = GOLD

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Originally Posted by Rogue

i know this is a common complaint in a few threads, so i figured it wont hurt if i make my own :P

I havent seen a single drop of darklight, its getting to the point i would be happy to see a drop even if it wasnt in my loot list lol.

Devs- is this the future of FFXIV?

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Apparently, yes it is.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Previously we made an announcement mentioning that in patch 1.22 we would adjust the exchange rate for items collected from primal battles. As the development team was making adjustments, after giving thorough consideration for balance and other aspects, they have decided to reduce the number of Kupo Nut Charms to 10; however, the number of Inferno Totems will not be reduced and will remain at the cost of 10 each weapon.

We apologize for the change and appreciate your understanding.

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well as for my LS we run AV/CC almost every nite, 4-6 clears a nite, most are speedrun.. we have been doing this since the launch of the patch.. we have 4 DL items.. I did notice that in the beginning the rate seemed alot higher than it currently is, we got lucky one nite and got 2 pieces from one run in CC, right befor the last maintenance.. in the 2 weeks following , we have gotten zero drops.. I dunno, but I think they reduced the rate during that last maintenance. As it stands now.. with like 0/50 runs.. it messed up. We have put in the hours and worked hard developing a strategy to do speedrun, and have very very little to show for it. I think if we can achieve a 5 chest speed run our rate should increase by the amount of chest popped.. reasoning is the better you are the better the reward. SP5C is not very easy, and the rewards for such feats should show that.

I could care less about darklight specifically. What concerns me is the precedent of 100+ runs of tedious repetition that is in no way difficult. Really think we need developer comments specifically addressing the future of this aspect, as I'm sure it's on many people's minds

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Please keep in mind the following key things:

Getting all DL gear right away may make a group of people happy. Then they will go away for a few months until new content appears. If this repeats, after a year this group of people may just loose interest in staying. This does not benefit SE.

Getting all DL gear slowly may make a group of people unhappy. They will post their unhappyness on the lodestone, and a portion of those may go away.

SE then must make a decision:
How many players will leave if things are easy, and how many will leave if it is hard. If it turns out that 0.1% of the population will leave if DL gear is incredibly hard to get, but 5% of the population would leave if DL gear is easy to get, SE will choose to forfit the 0.1% of the population.

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Hi Shayla,

If we only had 2 options as you're describing that's true. But I think what Rogue and others are bringing up is that there's definitely room for something inbetween those 2 extremes.

There have been numerous good suggestions by players on the forums over the last few months, on how to add longevity and incentive to max level content, without the need to resort to the current, simplistic, mind-numbingly repetitious system of "super low drop rate, repeat / spam the same fight hundreds of times to stall for time / keep people busy."

I listed some of the ideas in an earlier thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Level-Content/


And while there's no perfect formula for making everyone happy (agreed) :), with some foresight and proper planning Yoshida-san and the Combat Team *could* have (and can still) implement systems to make repeating content *far* more enjoyable and incentive-laden than what they've created so far (even with current assets and/or minimal increase in new assets).

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Originally Posted by cannonball

well as for my LS we run AV/CC almost every nite, 4-6 clears a nite, most are speedrun.. we have been doing this since the launch of the patch.. we have 4 DL items.. I did notice that in the beginning the rate seemed alot higher than it currently is, we got lucky one nite and got 2 pieces from one run in CC, right befor the last maintenance.. in the 2 weeks following , we have gotten zero drops.. I dunno, but I think they reduced the rate during that last maintenance. As it stands now.. with like 0/50 runs.. it messed up. We have put in the hours and worked hard developing a strategy to do speedrun, and have very very little to show for it. I think if we can achieve a 5 chest speed run our rate should increase by the amount of chest popped.. reasoning is the better you are the better the reward. SP5C is not very easy, and the rewards for such feats should show that.

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It's exactly this kind of stuff that is going to turn good players away from this game permanently if SE doesn't realize their error and do something about it. People can argue about whether it was challenging enough, but that's not even the point anymore. The fact is they decided what they thought was a proper challenge and we beat it. If they wanted their content to last a long time they should've thought about that in the design phase rather than taking the laziest possible way out by holding the rewards hostage behind a random number generator. We're not asking for handouts. We're not asking to gear out in 2 weeks. We're asking for content that we can complete before we're sick to death of it and sick of the game as a result. The idea of operating the game in its current state while they work on 2.0 should not be to turn existing players off to the point they lose hope in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

It's exactly this kind of stuff that is going to turn good players away from this game permanently if SE doesn't realize their error and do something about it. People can argue about whether it was challenging enough, but that's not even the point anymore. The fact is they decided what they thought was a proper challenge and we beat it. If they wanted their content to last a long time they should've thought about that in the design phase rather than taking the laziest possible way out by holding the rewards hostage behind a random number generator. We're not asking for handouts. We're not asking to gear out in 2 weeks. We're asking for content that we can complete before we're sick to death of it and sick of the game as a result. The idea of operating the game in its current state while they work on 2.0 should not be to turn existing players off to the point they lose hope in 2.0.

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I hate the low drop rate just as much as the next person. I think these arguments would be valid if this were 2.0. However we all know that the main focus of the entire XIV staff right now is on 2.0. So until then we are going to be getting the "bare minimum" when it comes to content and they probably can't exactly spare the time to come up with these masterful raids that everyone (including myself!) wants if they want to keep 2.0 on schedule (which they have to).

So this is just how it is right now. Yeah it sucks fighting against RNG and low drop rate is a lame carrot to use but I think it's important to keep in mind why and not to get your expectations up too high on anything pre 2.0.

If you're doing runs consistently then there isn't any challenge left anymore, it's just a matter of getting the drops. Personally, I still find that improving myself through crafting or leveling up classes is a better form of progression than a few pieces of gear, so I'm focused on that and not joining the masochism drive.

The drop rates have to be low if you don't have anything end gamey coming down the pipe line that seems to drop gear sets for a while.

If the drop rates were more common you guys would have nothing to do in pursuit of gear and CC and AV would quickly become obsolete. Looking at what is planned and when, low drop rates make sense. What you have next patch is Garuda, Hamlet Defense, AF weapons, and Empire Battle Content. Sounds great, but is it going to bring additional and greater gear sets?

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

The drop rates have to be low if you don't have anything end gamey coming down the pipe line that seems to drop gear sets for a while.

If the drop rates were more common you guys would have nothing to do in pursuit of gear and CC and AV would quickly become obsolete. Looking at what is planned and when, low drop rates make sense. What you have next patch is Garuda, Hamlet Defense, AF weapons, and Empire Battle Content. Sounds great, but is it going to bring additional and greater gear sets?

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What's so hard to grasp about the concept of limiting the rate at which you can farm clears in exchange for higher drop rates? It keeps loot coming out at the pace SE wants it to while saving a whole lot of burnout. They could also remove the randomness that creates "lucky" unskilled players with more loot than "unlucky" skilled players by using a points system. There are lots of different ways to make content last a long time that are a lot better than what we got. I don't know why some people can't see that this isn't an issue of how FAST people want to gear up but rather how unfun it is to grind out farm clears for absolutely nothing. Gathering people together to spend all evening grinding out the same content over and over again only to end late at night with nobody having made any progress in any way shape or form gets old fast.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

If it is a requirement to play all day everyday to be able to progress in this game then eventually i wont be able to pull myself into logging in.

Devs- is this the future of FFXIV?

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1. Farming AV non-stop does not improve your chances of getting said item. It is random probability, and as such, the length of time you spend going for said item will have no effect on your success. Drop rates are not balanced for the individual player, but for the entire playerbase. So out of 100 runs from the whole server, 3 will result in drops. You running it 500 times does not increase your chances, technically speaking. It *might* increase your chances, but then again it might increase someone else's chances. This isn't a console game, drop rates aren't individual rates, but server rates. Keep this in mind.

2. You can meld a set equal or superior to darklight. Seriously. Course that will take just as long.

3. To reiterate, you do not have to waste all your time doing AV. That will not improve your chances of a drop if there are a lot of other ppl doing it too. Now if you're the only ppl in the server doing AV for a prolonged period of time, your chances will increase. But as this is a highly unlikely scenario, running it nonstop is just a waste of time. No need to rush, just do it when you feel like it.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

What's so hard to grasp about the concept of limiting the rate at which you can farm clears in exchange for higher drop rates? It keeps loot coming out at the pace SE wants it to while saving a whole lot of burnout. They could also remove the randomness that creates "lucky" unskilled players with more loot than "unlucky" skilled players by using a points system. There are lots of different ways to make content last a long time that are a lot better than what we got. I don't know why some people can't see that this isn't an issue of how FAST people want to gear up but rather how unfun it is to grind out farm clears for absolutely nothing. Gathering people together to spend all evening grinding out the same content over and over again only to end late at night with nobody having made any progress in any way shape or form gets old fast.

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That model would not work pre 2.0 though, which is entirely my point. There is no need to create a dungeon model like this when it's going to be scrapped in it's new version. Which is what I've gathered from it.

A 24 hour or 12 hour cooldown for a dungeon sounds like a better concept for a game that is creating content that will not be scrapped in the future.

Like from other thread, I don't mind the drop rate it's supposed to be rare so I'm cool with that. Problem I have is the TA box is the one for the body, to get TA you need specific setup to do the run.

Make the bosses harder and more challenging but get rid of the damn TA box OR add another condition to that same box so others also can try to get that chest for a chance while keeping the chance/rate of dark light as is. Putting TA as a chest condition just limits some of the players who's trying to enjoy the game with their class/job they want to play. Just like old FFXI when people loved DRG job but in most situations DRG wasn't wanted.

Of course the best setup would work best but there are those players who want to play their class/role at fullest and not be left out. Say for CC I go to the raids with BLM or WHM myself but personally would love to try them as DRG or MNK the class/job I want to play - it's sure possible but most groups will go after the TA and do WAR, WHM, BLM, BRD setup.

FF XIV needs a grindable endgame with low drop rates that will keep people paying the monthly subscription based on the feeling that they might get lucky with drops. That's all there is to it.

You can always cancel your subscription when you experience all the new content in each patch. Your needing for the darklight pieces is what they're counting on though. So yeah, it's working well enough for them.

Don't expect drastic changes till 2.0 and "proper" endgame. Requirements might get lowered with each patch but, hey, there'll be a new carrot on the stick.

But we won't be done in time like this before they bring out Garuda ;_;

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

1. Farming AV non-stop does not improve your chances of getting said item. It is random probability, and as such, the length of time you spend going for said item will have no effect on your success. Drop rates are not balanced for the individual player, but for the entire playerbase. So out of 100 runs from the whole server, 3 will result in drops. You running it 500 times does not increase your chances, technically speaking. It *might* increase your chances, but then again it might increase someone else's chances. This isn't a console game, drop rates aren't individual rates, but server rates. Keep this in mind.

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are you serious? i suggest you think about this a little longer..

all i can say is that its quite fustrating running AV from 2pm est till 1am east everyday for 3 weeks not and have not seen a single body drop. i dont have a problem with hard to get gear or things you have to work for. i think thats what keeps people playing the game. that being said, it can be DAMN annoying ha.

4 drops 3 runs >_>

Spammed the hell out of both raids today (like always) without our main tanks. Out of about 12 runs, we had 3 miserable runs. Three pieces of Darklight dropped. Guess what raids they all dropped on?

Yup, that's right. The horrible runs. This system is shot.

On a side note: Full DD Cuirass Set for me xD

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Originally Posted by Rogue

are you serious? i suggest you think about this a little longer..

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I am serious. But its because ppl believe the opposite that they get suckered into things like casinos and lotteries. I can easily explain why it doesn't improve your chances: you are not playing by yourself.

Let's take a lottery for example. Ppl believe that if you buy a bunch of tickets, you have a higher chance of winning. True and false. For every ticket you buy, there's another person buying a lottery ticket..heck there are probably another 3 or 4 ppl buying a ticket. While statistically you have a higher chance than any other individual (in terms of probability), the increase of participants negates your probability of winning vs anyone else winning. Hard to explain in words so lets use numbers.

Take a lottery, for example. What would happen if, for every ticket you buy, 5 other ppl bought a ticket?

You buy 1 ticket. 5 other guys buy 1 ticket. 6 tickets total, your probability of winning is 1/6.

You buy 5 tickets. 25 other guys buy 1 ticket. 30 tickets total, your probability of winning is 1/6.

You buy 20 tickets. 100 other guys buy 1 ticket. 120 tickets total, your probability of winning is 1/6.

Get it now? Statistically, more attempts does not mean you have a higher chance of success. It depends on how many other guys are jumping in on the pool for every attempt you make. How many runs do you think happens in the time it takes for you to do one? Take a guess. Just think about it. What if the number of runs increased for every attempt you did? Your chances would actually start decreasing.

Let's go back to the lottery example. Let's say 5 more ppl buy a ticket than last time, for every ticket you buy.

You buy 5 tickets, (5+10+15+20+25) 75 other guys buy a ticket. 80 tickets total, your chances are 5/80, or 1/16

See how that compares to the above example? A lot worse right? What if you bought 1 ticket? It would be 5 tickets total, so your chances would be 1/5. Much better yeah?

Its important to remember that this was just an exercise in theoretical probability. The point was that more attempts =/= higher success rate. That entirely depends on how many attempts go on around you for every attempt you add to the pool. Of course it won't conspire against you like in my examples, but at times it just might. Theoretically its possible that less attempts = higher percentage chance of winning. Thats the problem with probability, *anything* can happen based on what everyone else decides to do. So really, I suggest you think about it a little longer. Three things can happen based on increasing your output:

1) Chances increase
2) Chances decrease
3) Chances stay the same

Your chances entirely depend on what everyone else is doing at the time. Sure more attempts is never a bad idea, but it doesn't mean it will really help you in practical terms.

I missed the post where it says that only so many of these things can drop per server, per day or w/e.

Luck Based and some even just went in onces and get their DL lol ...

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Originally Posted by Mikita

Darklight is currently the best gear in the game and has definitely given people something to work for. At least they drop into the loot list so we can pass them to people who can use them (unlike primal weapons).

Being luck based is rough, especially when the stars never align for you. But there is something to be said for the joy of finally getting the piece you want. And if the drop rates were higher then pretty soon most people would be running around in full Darklight gear and there would be nothing special about it.

Who knows what the timers are like. But we got the Heavy Darklight Flanchard on our very first Cutter's Cry win, and there were a lot of other parties there at the time. Beginner's luck?

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Carraway has crunched the numbers for our LS thus far, and with a fairly large sample size his fuzzy napkin math shows we're averaging a 0.026% drop rate per chest.

"working as intended"

http://assets.motherboard.tv/post_im...png?1334078325

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

I missed the post where it says that only so many of these things can drop per server, per day or w/e.

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Thats not what I said. I'm saying that probability is misleading, because most ppl tend to think of it as: "I have a 3% chance of getting this item". What they forget is that it also means: "3% of the attempts to get this item will succeed". If you are the only actor, 3% is a practical possibility. If there are thousands of other players acting with you, 3% in practically impossible unless you just happen to be lucky. Cuz now instead of there being only the attempts you make, there are all the attempts all the other ppl make. Out of 10000 attempts total, 3% would mean 300 drops. Those 300 drops can distribute any way they feel like it. It could all go to 20 ppl, 200 ppl, or 150 ppl. What about everyone else? They're at 0% success rate.

This is what I mean. 3% is not necessarily 3% practically speaking. And when I say practically, I mean realistically. Now if one person did enough runs, for a long enough time, theoretically he'd hit that 3% mark eventually. But we are human beings with lives, and a limited amount of time. That means if the pool got large enough, its more or less impossible for some ppl.

In other words, its like flipping a coin. Let's say we take turns flipping. Theoretically it will land on heads 50% of the time. But its quite possible that every single time I flipped the coin, it landed on tails, and every time you flipped the coin, it landed on heads. Now if I ask you what your success rate is for flipping heads, it would 100%: twice the odds. If you asked me, it would be 0%.

A primal drop is the same thing. SE sets a drop rate for the server. That means its entirely possible for an indivdual to come up on the losing end every single time.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Take a lottery, for example. What would happen if, for every ticket you buy, 5 other ppl bought a ticket?

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The premise of the argument is incorrect. There is no guarantee that for every ticket you buy 5 other people bought a ticket.

Proof: If 10 people choose to buy a ticket at the last moment, how can they guarantee there are 50 other people doing the same? And if those 10 people choose not to at the last second, how can they guarantee the other 50 choose to do the same?

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

You buy 1 ticket. 5 other guys buy 1 ticket. 6 tickets total, your probability of winning is 1/6.

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I think you are describing a 'raffle' system, not a 'lottery' system.

Lottery: You would pick numbers (say 5, from 1-100). Then 5 random numbers are rolled by a machine. If your 5 matches, you win. It is independent if 1 or 1 million people play, your odds of matching stay the same.

Raffle: Your ticket is put into a hat with a bunch of other people's tickets. Then one is drawn. If its yours, you win. The more people play (with one ticket per person), the less your odds are.


Now, your entire argument is based on the premise that the loot/drop system is based on a raffle, rather than pure lottery (or randomness). I do not know if this is true or not, but I have not seen anything that suggests this.

My only understanding on this (and every other drop mechanism I've seen here), it is pure randomness. If it is not (but based on a pool/raffle system) then that would be an interesting idea.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

blah, blah, blah

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im sorry but what it all boils down to innevitably is that more runs = more chances = more gears.

you are arguing about chance or luck, the fact is it is highly probable you will have to do ALOT of runs to get the drops with the current drop rate.

and conversely highly unlikely you will get all the drops (or even A drop) without doing ALOT of runs..

this thread is about whether or not having to do so much repetition is a good basis for how people play the game.

edit-

what i and some others are suggesting is that the amount of "work" required per oppurtunity for a drop be increased but the luck involved for an actual drop decrease.

There is a phycological thing happening, as an analogy if you say to someone you can only have a piece of cake if you roll a 6 on a dice people would be pretty pissed off right?.. you rolled 1-5's all day long and no cakes!! >:

but if you say to the same person they have to bake the cake before they can have some they wouldnt even know all the time there was a mechanic in place solely to try and stop them getting cake!!

dunno if that made sense lol

all you ahve to do is not do this patch and wait for next patch when better armor will be out.

A D-6?!!? What is this RISK?! DL bodies = Zocchihedron!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

all you ahve to do is not do this patch and wait for next patch when better armor will be out.

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i have thought about that.. but then it occurs to me "will i also have to do 200+ runs of the next raid?"

I find it hard to believe that as the OP says he has not gotten anything from these runs
I am a casual player
I have cleared Ifrit about 15 time with only 2 totems and a pile of DM to show for it
I have cleared AV about 10 times (4chest runs every time, no speed runs) and I got a ring, an earring, a shield and some pants
No DL but I have seen 2 DL drops in my runs
If I get a DL drop in 25 or so runs I will be happy, if I never get any I wont care
Go buy 100 scratch off tickets and tell me when you hit it big........

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Originally Posted by Otaku

If I get a DL drop in 25 or so runs I will be happy, if I never get any I wont care

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If your happyness is ensured by material gains, then you will forever lead an unhappy life. If you can find happyness simply by being with your friends, then you will be truly happy indeed.

I am a Mage.. if a DL item falls that is not for Mage, I will happilly pass it to a friend.
If a DL item falls that is for a Mage, but a friend needs or wants it more than me, I will happilly pass it to that friend.

I am happy enough to be here..... DL pressies are just icing on my cookiee.

I hope all those who fret over DL gear can eventually find happyness through other means ^.^

The way i see it, heres the unspoken part of this: People dont just want Darklight, they want the IM ELITE PIECES. Add in that theres a pecking order and i believe we get a clearer view of this picture. LS leaders and their pecking orders must be under some stress. ive seen 2 peeps in my server with full sets, gotta wonder how many of their LSs rabble have in total

yes I know of 2 LS leaders in my server , they have done basically about 400- 500 runs already and people are getting sick and tired and some dont turn up for statkcs already, Hence LS leaders have to replace and the newly replaced are questioning the leaders why members have priorty over DL and not them ? Are u making use of us to farm for ur DL ?

If u tell me it doesnt affect the community as a whole . Bullshit !
I still reckon that rare items must goes with difficulty and not merely rinse and repeat luck.

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Originally Posted by Fionlagh

The way i see it, heres the unspoken part of this: People dont just want Darklight, they want the IM ELITE PIECES. Add in that theres a pecking order and i believe we get a clearer view of this picture. LS leaders and their pecking orders must be under some stress. ive seen 2 peeps in my server with full sets, gotta wonder how many of their LSs rabble have in total

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