DRK enmity gen vs other tanks

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I still don't understand what your problem with TBN is. It cuts into your MP to give you the exact same thing that you'd use during that resource dump for the exact same cost. Calling a basically free 25 % shield lackluster is beyond me.

Anyways, you keep doing you I guess.

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I can tell you what the "problem" with TBN is, it isn't free. It is at best dps neutral and at worst a dps loss.

The 3000 mp you're spending on TBN would normally be spent on an Edge and in theory yes, for those 3000 mp you get a 25% shield and an Edge...but only if the shield actually breaks.

This means TBN is limited to attacks that can actually break the shield, not the biggest problem since you just need to know what breaks it and what doesn't. Calling it "free" is however just flat out not true because if it were you could just use it on cooldown. The other issue is that you basically get less use out of TBN the better your gear becomes since there will be less attacks that can actually break it.


All in all I wouldn't consider it a big "problem", it's just a very strong shield that costs you dps if you use it wrong.

I'd consider being reimbursed the cost as free. I also said "basically free" in hopes of avoiding this exact semantic but here we are :D
I'll admit to the word being wrong but how would you describe it then?

As for the not breaking / gear progression causing it not to break, that is a non-issue in my books. If it's not breaking, don't use it there next time. Same thing if it stops working due to gear upgrades. Most things that it was worth using on at 480 it's still worth using on at i500.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Unless you're having a tank-off, there shouldn't be any problem.
Enmity generation is ahead of all non-tank classes, and in dual-tank situations you work with your partner, not against him. Shirk as needed, provoke as needed, using your tank stance as needed.
The only issue I can see is if you really wanted to be front and centre for like an S rank hunt mob or something like that which doesn't actually matter.

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I could just be perpetuating an ARR myth, but doesn't aggro actually count for the amount of 'effort' put into a fate or hunt for the rewards? I'm mostly just curious at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I'd consider being reimbursed the cost as free. I also said "basically free" in hopes of avoiding this exact semantic but here we are :D
I'll admit to the word being wrong but how would you describe it then?

As for the not breaking / gear progression causing it not to break, that is a non-issue in my books. If it's not breaking, don't use it there next time. Same thing if it stops working due to gear upgrades. Most things that it was worth using on at 480 it's still worth using on at i500.

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can confirm that 2 e8s autos are enough to break TBN at 500 (BiS w/o weapon because i can't win the coffer roll to save my life)

Op, it may just be a stance issue. make sure ur stance is on, and the ot stance is off. that should solve ur problems

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Originally Posted by Lammas

I'd consider being reimbursed the cost as free. I also said "basically free" in hopes of avoiding this exact semantic but here we are :D
I'll admit to the word being wrong but how would you describe it then?

As for the not breaking / gear progression causing it not to break, that is a non-issue in my books. If it's not breaking, don't use it there next time. Same thing if it stops working due to gear upgrades. Most things that it was worth using on at 480 it's still worth using on at i500.

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It isn't really a semantics argument since he is explaining why it can't be called "free". A free ability provides a completely positive benefit with no detriment in its usage. TBN is the most "skill" based tank cooldown.
The issue is there isn't really a reward for properly using it, or a way to remedy cases where the shield doesn't break due to outgearing content.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

It isn't really a semantics argument since he is explaining why it can't be called "free". A free ability provides a completely positive benefit with no detriment in its usage. TBN is the most "skill" based tank cooldown.
The issue is there isn't really a reward for properly using it, or a way to remedy cases where the shield doesn't break due to outgearing content.

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No reward? The reward is being able to CONSIDERABLY lighten any healing load on you which means the healers can do their jobs more effectively/dps more. It is by far the best skill the DRK has in particular for savage content and beyond. DRK's can eat entire tankbusters on their absorb shield, and if they know the fight well enough they can use it inbetween a certain number of times as well at times they know the damage will still break the shield and reimburse them their mana cost. The reward is being an amazingly defensive tank that barely requires any healing at all compared to some of the other ones.

Not to mention if you're particularly situationally aware you can save DPS lives with it if for some reason the healing was lacking for an upcoming mechanic or they are a little out of position. TBN can mean a lot for the overal performance of a group.

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Originally Posted by TheCount

No reward? The reward is being able to CONSIDERABLY lighten any healing load on you which means the healers can do their jobs more effectively/dps more. It is by far the best skill the DRK has in particular for savage content and beyond. DRK's can eat entire tankbusters on their absorb shield, and if they know the fight well enough they can use it inbetween a certain number of times as well at times they know the damage will still break the shield and reimburse them their mana cost. The reward is being an amazingly defensive tank that barely requires any healing at all compared to some of the other ones.

Not to mention if you're particularly situationally aware you can save DPS lives with it if for some reason the healing was lacking for an upcoming mechanic or they are a little out of position. TBN can mean a lot for the overal performance of a group.

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Yeah, when people say TBN has no reward for using it properly I think they just got off a bus from crazy town.

In no situation is getting a quarter of your HP pool as a shield on top of the 500 potency attack you were gonna do anyway "no reward".

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

Yeah, when people say TBN has no reward for using it properly I think they just got off a bus from crazy town.

In no situation is getting a quarter of your HP pool as a shield on top of the 500 potency attack you were gonna do anyway "no reward".

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Yeah...no. I originally didn't want to get too much into this but whatever.



"Using it properly" essentially boils down to "using it on tank busters" because even in savage most bosses don't deal enough damage within 7 seconds to reliably break the shield with anything else. There are of course exceptions but they are few and far between if we exclude taking extra damage on purpose. This is a limitation to TBN that no other tank has to deal with, their low CD mitigation is completely free.


"But TBN mitigates more damage" Well, yes it does but is it actually necessary? Obviously not since PLD, WAR and GNB are completely fine with their 15-20% mitigation, mitigation that they can even use on low damage mechanics for a bit of extra damage reduction without gimping their dps.

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Originally Posted by TheCount

No reward? The reward is being able to CONSIDERABLY lighten any healing load on you which means the healers can do their jobs more effectively/dps more.

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It can potentially lighten the burden on healers but the question is "by how much?" Does it actually gain the healers a GCD they can spend on dps? In most cases it doesn't. Damage in savage is currently so infrequent that it can be healed entirely with oGCDs so you're not actually increasing your healer's dps and the fact that it needs to break to be of any use still applies. Even if your healer gains one more Glare/Malefic/Broil from your TBN it's at best 300 potency, a 200 potency loss if your TBN doesn't break.


Let's compare TBN to another now signature tank ability, Nascent Flash.

Nascent can restore anything between 14 - 89k health, 14k being the worst case in which you just do Heavy Swing -> Maim -> Path with no eye buff active + 1 auto and 89k being the best case in which you do Inner Chaos -> Inner Chaos -> Upheaval -> Fellcleave + 2 autos with eye active. The average is about 54k with Maim -> Path -> Upheaval -> Fellcleave + 1 auto with eye active.

The current unbuffed tank HP in BiS is 162685 but let's crank it up to about 172000 HP to account for buff food and party bonuses. This means that TBN would mitigate 43000 damage max if it actually breaks from the attack.

Now let's look back at Nascent Flash, the usual HP restored by proper usage is about 54k HP with a Maim -> Path -> Upheaval -> Fellcleave. You can generate enough Beastgauge for this in 16.66 seconds with a GCD of 2.38 but since we need Upheaval for this let's say it takes 30 seconds, NF's cooldown being 25 seconds. Numbers obviously vary depending on crit rng and party buffs but this means in theory you can restore 54k HP every 30 seconds, this doesn't even take into account IR or Nascent Chaos usage which restore more HP.


Can you do that with TBN every 30 seconds?


This might be an extreme example since proper NF usage is quite powerful and requires a bit more setup than TBN but even Raw Intuition mitigates about 30k damage on average. Since all of the other tank's short CD mitigation has no dps cost attached to it they can potentially see more uses over a whole fight and reach the same amount of mitigation as TBN does.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Can you do that with TBN every 30 seconds?

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Pretty much. TBN and NF HPS are pretty close when you look at players that go for high HPS. Overall DRK and WAR have very similar HPS when you ignore Shake it Off, because that's raidwide mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Yeah...no. I originally didn't want to get too much into this but whatever.



"Using it properly" essentially boils down to "using it on tank busters" because even in savage most bosses don't deal enough damage within 7 seconds to reliably break the shield with anything else. There are of course exceptions but they are few and far between if we exclude taking extra damage on purpose. This is a limitation to TBN that no other tank has to deal with, their low CD mitigation is completely free.

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That's actually not true, as evidenced by folks in this thread:

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

can confirm that 2 e8s autos are enough to break TBN at 500 (BiS w/o weapon because i can't win the coffer roll to save my life)

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And the fact that the Balance opener even has you do so right at the pull for an extra Edge. And that's at i500 fully geared, that guy is in the same gear situation as me (full 500 but missing the Edenchoir weapon still). So with lower gear, it will obviously be easier to break since lower HP and all.

You absolutely can use TBN on autos in Savage/Ult content.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

And the fact that the Balance opener even has you do so right at the pull for an extra Edge. And that's at i500 fully geared, that guy is in the same gear situation as me (full 500 but missing the Edenchoir weapon still). So with lower gear, it will obviously be easier to break since lower HP and all.

You absolutely can use TBN on autos in Savage/Ult content.

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That's why I said exceptions exist. Shiva hits you for roughtly 32k on average so of course 2 autos can break the shield and I didn't mention Ultimates on purpose since TBN becomes a lot more useful there, almost every mechanic is able to break the shield.


This doesn't change the fact that TBN is significantly more limited in where you can use it than the other defensive CDs.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's why I said exceptions exist. Shiva hits you for roughtly 32k on average so of course 2 autos can break the shield and I didn't mention Ultimates on purpose since TBN becomes a lot more useful there, almost every mechanic is able to break the shield.


This doesn't change the fact that TBN is significantly more limited in where you can use it than the other defensive CDs.

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At the same time, the comparable tools are also stopping nowhere near the amount of damage even a failed TBN would.

If you're not breaking a 25% shield, then by comparison, Shelltron is saving less than 5% of your health, Heart of Stone about 4%, and Nascent none because you're just recovering it anyways.

It's free health, sure, but it also feels like the rest are equally inconsequential if the content in question can't break the bat.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's why I said exceptions exist. Shiva hits you for roughtly 32k on average so of course 2 autos can break the shield and I didn't mention Ultimates on purpose since TBN becomes a lot more useful there, almost every mechanic is able to break the shield.


This doesn't change the fact that TBN is significantly more limited in where you can use it than the other defensive CDs.

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TBN isn't more limited. In fact, with it's really low cooldown it's the most flexible cooldown in the game. You learn when it can be broken and you use it then. In savage content, almost every raidwide, 2 autos, tank busts, it's insanely flexible. Not to mention shields are better than mitigation. I'd even say, that in any situation where you need to use a cooldown at all, you can use TBN.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

TBN isn't more limited. In fact, with it's really low cooldown it's the most flexible cooldown in the game. You learn when it can be broken and you use it then. In savage content, almost every raidwide, 2 autos, tank busts, it's insanely flexible. Not to mention shields are better than mitigation. I'd even say, that in any situation where you need to use a cooldown at all, you can use TBN.

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This is factually wrong, it's the least flexible if you want to get the Dart Arts stored from the TBN breaking. You have no other contingency for consideration, using Sheltron, Heart of Stone or Raw Intuition/ Nascent Flash, you use em whenever you want as long as you have gauge or they're off cooldown. For TBN, you need raidwides to happen, not every two autos will break TBN (most savage boss autos hit like a wet noodle apart from final floor bosses) and tankbusters have been super low per fight this tier. Nothing's stopping you from throwing TBN out every 15 seconds, but your DPS will be a net loss. Correct, HP shields do not get affected by Diminishing Return, that wasn't up for debate in the first place, the whole point of this TBN discussion was whether or not TBN was free, which it is not.