Speed run instances are killing PLD

Chillout guys/gals!!

If Paladin dies, then it will be resurrected as a Dark Knight.

Even with speed runs gone, there's no reason to pick paladin over warrior except maybe for kiting. Paladin still has a lot less HP (can't screw up or you die, hope your connection is solid!), does less damage than an AFK monk, and has the worst subclass skill selection of any job. They'll never give paladin enough mitigation to make up for those - the monsters they'd have to make to threaten paladin would completely murder everyone else - so until they fix those problems paladin won't be worth it. If you want to get rid of speed runs that's fine, but it's a separate issue.

Also, punishing class stacking is as stupid as encouraging it. Diversity should be encouraged by good balance so people can play the class that they're most comfortable with without dragging down the other 7 members of their team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

Even with speed runs gone, there's no reason to pick paladin over warrior except maybe for kiting. Paladin still has a lot less HP (can't screw up or you die, hope your connection is solid!), does less damage than an AFK monk, and has the worst subclass skill selection of any job. They'll never give paladin enough mitigation to make up for those - the monsters they'd have to make to threaten paladin would completely murder everyone else - so until they fix those problems paladin won't be worth it. If you want to get rid of speed runs that's fine, but it's a separate issue.

Also, punishing class stacking is as stupid as encouraging it. Diversity should be encouraged by good balance so people can play the class that they're most comfortable with without dragging down the other 7 members of their team.

---

Mar has tanking and DD stance, i don't know why glad doesn't have guard/attack stance. Its the only things i can see ever fixing that job.

Having done the SR about a bajillion times now it feels like. I happen to agree with the OP. Hardcore groups will always find the fastest and most efficient way to run the content no matter what. Outside of one extra chest that has extremely low drop rates, I don't see the reason for a SR. The chances for drops aren't improved at all. All this does is require players to play on jobs they may not like and condone class stacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexxus

Also, be able to switch job in dungeon should be forbidden.

---

Lets just axe the entire Armory system while we're at it. /sarcasm

All these people talking about class balance.

Shouldn't archer's have crappy attack power? I mean they are dealing ranged damaged, there should be a difference in damage between them and physically close melees. You nerf this, people will complain.

You nerf the def or att of warrior, people are going to complain. I play warrior and I'm actually in favor of reducing the def of warrior. I don't want to tank all the time and like to deal aoe damage.

SE has close to never nerfed any classes lately, they just buff up other classes and call it a done deal. Remember when in DH how archers were only wanted? SE buffed up all other dd weapon skills. Why not reduce the damage of the archer? I don't know, I'm going on a rant.

Point blank, class balancing is not that easy and the way SE goes around with buffing everything else won't cut it. They just did it with PLD and it doesn't seem to be working.

Overall, just get rid of TA SE >.> No one likes it.

Why are people so against leveling up all their jobs so they can actually benefit from the uniqueness of the Armory system. Every update has had their star classes. 1.18 had ARC and GLA and like always both mages for darkhold. 1.19 brought Ifrit with LNC MRD and CON not so much THM though. 1.20 had moogle which phased out MRD for a little bit and people were using gla's again, back to ARC and of course THM and CON. Now we got 1.21 and I think EVERY single class has its use. We haven't seen PGL get this much action since 1.17 when they were tanking Ureaus. This is the most balance I've seen yet. Sure PLD doesnt get to shine as much as he did in the other patches. So use another class!!! Its not like you gotta start a new character. During my linkshell speed runs i personally sometimes switch jobs 2-3 times during the run. WHAT OTHER GAME CAN U GO FROM MAGE TO MELEE IN 10 SECONDS!?

Or you could just cry and post that you only want to play PLD and nothing else...

If SE intends Warrior to tank, they need give it Taunt and nerf its damage/AoE output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

If SE intends Warrior to tank, they need give it Taunt and nerf its damage/AoE output.

---

Warrior is a Tank if you look at the 2.0 UI image.

Don't get rid of anything...VARIETY is good. Just need more VARIETY!!! I'm still waiting for the epic dungeon with no timer...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

If SE intends Warrior to tank, they need give it Taunt and nerf its damage/AoE output.

---

Warrior has access to provoke, flash, and most of the best defensive abilities in the game. Taunt would barely help them and I wouldn't even waste an action slot on it given that their alternatives are so good.

They don't need to bring Warrior down, they need to bring Paladin up to its level. If Paladin and Dragoon were brought up a little bit I think class balance would be pretty damn good (maybe dragoon is okay right now? I haven't seen one perform well compared to monk).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XStruckX

Why are people so against leveling up all their jobs so they can actually benefit from the uniqueness of the Armory system.

---

I think it has more to do with not everyone has the time/ability to level all the jobs. I've got some friends who can only get on during LS event times when they can actually get on. Of course my shell is supportive and allows them to do their own thing when they haven't had time to do stuff, but they would much rather support the shell and hang with friends rather than go level with boring a PuG with people they don't know. I know there's the argument you can support the shell by being more versatile, but you have to consider happy player vs. unhappy player. Happy players are going to want to keep playing, unhappy players (often those who are forced/told what to do for the sake of progress) get bored of things and might pop on occasionally for new patches just to disappear again for another 2 months which leaves you one man down for events. The easiest solution to remedy that (not necessarily the easiest to fix mind you) would be to make content doable by casual players and make it where all jobs would be equally desired for a position outside of the basic needs of a group (IE:Healer,tank,etc.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xoo

If SE intends Warrior to tank, they need give it Taunt and nerf its damage/AoE output.

---

war is right were it needs to be, its a dd tank. the problem is the damage mitigation tank isnt good enough at mitigating damage as it should be. Dont break war to fix pld, just fix pld.

Also War has far superior tanking skills then pld so im not sure if taunt would make a difference.

As I see it and Im sure a lotta people would agree stuff like moogle and these instance dungeons should have a point system. Basicly you go in you kill mobs and boss and just finish the dungeon. Now points can be awarded based on a lot of conditions. Now said points are there by saved up for what ever reward the player wants, and I am not talking about a crap load of points at once but something that still takes time to aquire. Its been awhile so I can remember exactly which endgame had it think it was salvage, but a point system like that would help every1. See regardless if its a shitty drop rate or a point system, those players who want to get everything in a week or 2 would still get what they want as soon as they can. It would still be a time sync so if SE went with the point system it would be alotta better than now, by reason of wow i need 25k points and i now have 15k points woot 10k to go and i get (insert gear) whatever.

Points could be given for time it took to complete, how many mobs was defeated etc. Also on a furthure note rare mobs could be added to add a challenge as well as to earn extra points. SE is taking the easy way by makeing content that is the way it is now. Now instead of people argueing yes and or no about whatever lets turn that anger or what not towards those responsible and get something done about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XStruckX

Why are people so against leveling up all their jobs so they can actually benefit from the uniqueness of the Armory system. Every update has had their star classes. 1.18 had ARC and GLA and like always both mages for darkhold. 1.19 brought Ifrit with LNC MRD and CON not so much THM though. 1.20 had moogle which phased out MRD for a little bit and people were using gla's again, back to ARC and of course THM and CON. Now we got 1.21 and I think EVERY single class has its use. We haven't seen PGL get this much action since 1.17 when they were tanking Ureaus. This is the most balance I've seen yet. Sure PLD doesnt get to shine as much as he did in the other patches. So use another class!!! Its not like you gotta start a new character. During my linkshell speed runs i personally sometimes switch jobs 2-3 times during the run. WHAT OTHER GAME CAN U GO FROM MAGE TO MELEE IN 10 SECONDS!?

Or you could just cry and post that you only want to play PLD and nothing else...

---

A game should NEVER make one class/job the best for one patch and crap for the next. Every patch except Ifrit has made archer the crowning class to take. Do you not see something wrong with this? When you make something the best class of the patch, everyone is going to class stack it and make having class/job diversity pointless when it can be beaten with 2 healers, one tank, and 5 of one other.

It's not crying when a person prefers to only play one class/job compared to the others. It's a personal preference.

i prefer the way they did toto rak, they could do something similar but instead of finishing the dungeon when killing one of the three bosses i prefer killing all 3 to get the 5th chest, might take longer to clear but at least will help getting different setups, they can even make bosses more difficult as you kill em, 1st normal, 2nd double difficulty, 3rd tripple difficulty, idk or add more skills to those or in a better case make different bosses not just in name, of course if you're doing all that the drop rate should/must be upgraded according with the number of boss killed.

The best way to do it is make 2 rooms for boss pop, and a third room that is unlocked after beating the 2 boss, give 2 chest one chest per room and 3 in the last room (those 3 will spawn if all the puzzles were solved if not just 1) that would be a good time sink

you guys are dumb.

the armory system's big perk was changing class mid combat, something which i wish they would expand on even further and let you change class, somehow, actually in combat.

paladin is just a piece of shit as is-it's nothing to do with the dungeons. they can't hold hate like a WAR, do damage like a WAR or take damage like a WAR and it's inferior in every way. they'll fix it...eventually.

soooo you guys want to make the game even easier?

sigh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

They don't need to bring Warrior down, they need to bring Paladin up to its level.

---

yes. it's all about enmity. my LS uses warrior tanks simply because their enmity generation is much faster and higher than that of paladins, and we *need that* when our monks and blms are doing 145-160 dps on mistress.

sure, the extra damage a warrior brings to the table is nice, and that extra damage is part of what makes their enmity generation better- but that just means square needs to adjust paladin's enmity generation to comparable levels. the recent changes were a good boost, but still not enough. almost makes me think they need to give paladin some kind of native enmity aura or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

If Paladin and Dragoon were brought up a little bit I think class balance would be pretty damn good (maybe dragoon is okay right now? I haven't seen one perform well compared to monk).

---

that's the thing. class balance is extremely good right now other than the pld vs. war issue.

monk is great single target vs magic weak mobs, good single target otherwise, poor aoe. warrior is great aoe, average single target. bard is decent single target, decent aoe, not great at anything but has party buffs. blm is great single target and great aoe, but in fights longer than 3 mins they're going to start to see a dramatic drop off as MP becomes an issue (especially vs. corselet melee). dragoon is pretty good single target, pretty good aoe (second only to war).

sure, most speed run groups mix and match to best deal with each encounter, but most speed run groups are also finishing in about 18-20 minutes by doing so. that still leaves 5-7 minutes or more on the clock. and other LSs (DoW, etc) have already proven it's entirely easy to roll through to a 5 chest clear without stacking jobs, and without changing jobs at all.

the community is partially to blame, as always. but the bottom line is people are mostly just making excuses. everything is pretty balanced. speed runs are easy without stacking jobs or maintaining rigid job preference. everyone just needs to suck it up and play better.

the end.

Agreed with the sentiment expressed by some in this thread that the community is too needy and under-appreciative of the efforts to balance the game, which I think are balancing out fairly well. It'll take some time to perfect (especially with SE catering to such an audience).

Considering AV and CC are currently what defines our 'end game', I'm slightly discouraged to see it defeated so easily, especially with the optimized stacked party being so mainstream. Understandably, players who've done 100+ runs have a right to complain about a shitty drop rate, but as cited earlier, that's a different story.

The fact that so many parties participating in these events are so inclined for a stacked party, to me, indicates their interest to be not in the challenge of fighting, or the joys of such challenge, but almost solely interested in the drops alone. That is to say, if the quickest route to (me) and (item) is (strat), then let's do that. If you find yourself surrounded by people not wanting to experiment with different classes and jobs, (something I salute DoW for in posting that video people have mentioned) then find another group.

I firmly believe class stacking is a combination of two things:
•Players wanting the quickest and easiest method of winning (and not experimenting) - a result of watching how everyone else does it and flocking to that particularly strat religiously and,
•Players sucking at their jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myoozek

The fact that so many parties participating in these events are so inclined for a stacked party, to me, indicates their interest to be not in the challenge of fighting, or the joys of such challenge, but almost solely interested in the drops alone. That is to say, if the quickest route to (me) and (item) is (strat), then let's do that. If you find yourself surrounded by people not wanting to experiment with different classes and jobs, then find another group.

•Players wanting the quickest and easiest method of winning (and not experimenting) - a result of watching how everyone else does it and flocking to that particularly strat religiously

---

QFT

And it spreads to the forums. I know PLDs who do just fine on speed run in all content. I know War who don't. And so on and so on. I also know DD who can steal hate off either job and ones who can't. If everyone would focus on the party they are with, rather then the party they were with or saw or heard about, I think you would find that any content on this game can be done with multiple combinations and skill levels.

Stats don't replace thinking. Ever. Find an LS that wants to play with you. Not your job.

If you know someone is weak in an area, plan for the weakness to occur and compensate. If you know someone is strong in an area, plan for the boost and play it up.

Is really very basic group concepts.

I think the PLD job might need to be entierly redesigned. Maybe give it a role more along the line of party support where eating all the damage and enmity would not be its only/primary purpose. Change it in a manner where it would make sense to have more than one in a party.

I never liked the PLD/NIN concept in XI. Hated it. If players have to rely on dubious tricks, extreme stats boost, constantly unorthodox gameplay, begging, etc. to make a job relevant in a group, then the job needs to be reengineered. Its kind of extreme, but i dont see how any scotch tape patch would help PLD without wrecking something else and going back to status quo.

Ultimately this is my own 2 cents. I dont think SE can and will do something along the line of my suggestion.

The main flaw of the speed run, it make only one metric matter for success. That metric is damage. More damage means faster we can kill everything. Making a team with less damage but more survivability, crowd control, or anything else; is not important. Only damage and killing the monster ASAP is. Paladins and dragoons are hurt the most because they have strengths outside of damage. Why take a paladin with support skills, that doesn't increase our damage.

I've played many MMOs and team based game; I have never seen stacking this bad. The stacking for highest damage resists freedom of game play in ways I'm just shocked to see. I have never had such a push in a game to maximize damage. Like it or not, unless SE does something about it, this will hurt the game. The current system rewards stacking the highest damage classes for that fight. You even can change your class mid-raid to fit the fight.

I agree speed run do hurt this game and the paladin's class playability. The paladin has fantastic abilities and strengths, sadly they don't fit the mentality encouraged by making speed run the only way to get all the gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fusional

yes. it's all about enmity. my LS uses warrior tanks simply because their enmity generation is much faster and higher than that of paladins, and we *need that* when our monks and blms are doing 145-160 dps on mistress.

sure, the extra damage a warrior brings to the table is nice, and that extra damage is part of what makes their enmity generation better- but that just means square needs to adjust paladin's enmity generation to comparable levels. the recent changes were a good boost, but still not enough. almost makes me think they need to give paladin some kind of native enmity aura or something.

---

I doubt just adding passive enmity would solve paladin's problems. The tank can't be doing such little damage in this kind of game. If Paladin did even 75% of a warrior's single target damage (while tanking) that would be a huge boost. This of course includes proper use of combos, etc. If Riot Blade were usable from the front that might help things a bit.

And of course even with improved damage/enmity, paladin is still way more vulnerable to magical/bighuge attacks because of lower HP and the same mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChickNorris

And it spreads to the forums.

---

Not referring to me are you chick? :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fusional

yes. it's all about enmity. my LS uses warrior tanks simply because their enmity generation is much faster and higher than that of paladins, and we *need that* when our monks and blms are doing 145-160 dps on mistress.

---

Who says we're not already playing FFXI? >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myoozek

I firmly believe class stacking is a combination of two things:
•Players wanting the quickest and easiest method of winning (and not experimenting) - a result of watching how everyone else does it and flocking to that particularly strat religiously and,
•Players sucking at their jobs

---

So SE gets no part of the blame then? Just the players? Lol to that idea.

You might try these two:
- poor class balance
- unimaginative encounter/boss design

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klive

The main flaw of the speed run, it make only one metric matter for success. That metric is damage. More damage means faster we can kill everything. Making a team with less damage but more survivability, crowd control, or anything else; is not important. Only damage and killing the monster ASAP is. Paladins and dragoons are hurt the most because they have strengths outside of damage. Why take a paladin with support skills, that doesn't increase our damage.

---

Except the metric isn't damage. The metric IS teamwork and execution (as shown in the heavily-cited DoW video with 7 jobs). Classes with damage and good crowd control just so happen to lie along the path of least resistance. If the metric was damage then people would not be having difficulty running this instance in 25mins with PUG groups. Oh and then thread would not have been made. If only.

Please think before posting!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Except the metric isn't damage. The metric IS teamwork and execution (as shown in the heavily-cited DoW video with 7 jobs). Classes with damage and good crowd control just so happen to lie along the path of least resistance. If the metric was damage then people would not be having difficulty running this instance in 25mins with PUG groups. Oh and then thread would not have been made. If only.

Please think before posting!

---

Thank you, I do think before posting. That was a needless comment.

Teamwork is a metric in an MMO? Thank you for telling me. Anyways, yes teamwork is required for any group based activity. Teamwork has to be there for anything to be successful. Damage is the only metric that people care about. This why people try to maximize it for faster runs. Yes it is possible to run it without stacking, hence the video, but doesn't mean it is the fastest. People want the fastest, hence the the damage being the only metric.

And so your statement which was:

Quote:

---

The main flaw of the speed run, it make only one metric matter for success. That metric is damage.

---

is therefor false, and you agree that teamwork is important.

"Damage" is what PUGs prioritize to support their grand delusion of success. It is not necessarily what they care about, so much as a false measurement for how well they believe they will do. You could say I am splitting hairs or speaking semantics, but there is a difference, and it is important to highlight the distinction between them.

That was my my point.

Scotch tape PLD patch anyone ? :P
http://v.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/ca...0916-fb64a.jpg

Square HQ would probably be a couch with a quarter lost in it.

A really old quarter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klive

Yes it is possible to run it without stacking, hence the video, but doesn't mean it is the fastest. People want the fastest, hence the the damage being the only metric.

---

I don't think anybody who are capable of speed run care about clearing it faster as much as they care about just clearing the speed run itself. People don't want the fastest, they want all 5 chests. So declaring damage being the only metric just proves Grey right and that your post was made without thought. What would you rather have? 7 team mates that did great damage but played like shit or, 7 team mates that did decent damage but played like pros? If I had a group that is capable of doing 18 minute runs but sucked and couldn't achieve 25 minutes versus a group that can make 25 minutes consistently, I'd roll with the latter every time.

The only problems on SE's end at this moment is adjustments to PLD, drop rates and more challenging content. Speed run is decently challenging but only when you roll with people outside your core group who don't know the process. If you static with the same people for a good amount of time, the strategy is easy to pick up.

The people who complain about not getting parties because their current available jobs don't match up to the current class stacking trend should either level up other jobs or find better players to play with. Class stacking is going to happen, no point bitching about it. SE made it stupidly easy to level up. Even casual gamers can get a job leveled to 50 in little time and effort. If you're one of those people who refuses to level anything other than your main class, have fun being gimped both in versatily and knowledge/experience to how other classes function.

Speed run isn't hard, its just that a lot of people suck at it, and not because they suck as players but because they haven't played it enough or haven't had good people to play with. I bet in a couple months people will get better and PUG groups will be more efficient. Everyone will be doing speed runs and all will be well. Thats the one problem with the official forums, people come on here and complain when they should be in game getting better. So go, stop reading this and go do AV and CC! Quickly! Go master that shit so you can come back and complain about crappy drop rates! :p