This game needs to give us all our skills at lvl 50.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

What I'd like is more crucial skills showing up earlier, but maybe traits at later levels open up functionality, increase effectiveness, reduce CD, etc. That is actually what a lot of traits already do; PLD gets instant spells, for instance. I don't think they have to make all of everyone's kit available at a low level, though they can probably improve the gameplay experience by making stuff that feel super core to the job experience available a little sooner. It's said a lot but The Black Night should show up sooner, but maybe has a longer CD until you get a trait at 70. Little balance levers like that.

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I sort of agree but adjustments need to be done with care to ensure that they do not affect the core rotation. Timing changes and additional charges can affect how skills align or make certain synergies possible. That in turn can radically change the preferred rotation or priority (or swap between rotation and priority, lol). Even potency adjustments can cause that. (eg. under level X only hit skill B to refresh the buff then until level Y spam it until level Z where you alternate between B and C)

At least we don't have set bonuses.

Did everyone forget that not every spell in the game is an upgraded version of an older one? and that they also add new ones every expansion? If it was a completed rotation that devs dont want to expand upon anymore and if it could be balanced with jobs that dont fulfill those requirements and if it didnt trivialise way too much old encounters then maybe yes but thats an impossible big if. Lets be reasonable about it , its a fun concept but its literally impossible

Big negative. The game is easy enough as it is. In fact MSQ is just that, its casual gameplay.

But in all honesty it should take no more than 15 minutes to run a dungeon a majority of the time. I think the longest is either tik tok with the slime slowing everything down or AV because for whatever reason people simply lack awareness of their surroundings there and run around like its the end of the world. Besides ARR dungeons and I want to say HW dungeons already locked in based off level currently.

having all the skills available would require a rework of the entire ARR and HW environments bring it into balance. Its not a simple flip the switch and honestly I would rather them focus on more current and future content.

Some adjustments to get more earlier would absolutely be welcome, even some before 50. Black mage in particular is mind-numbingly boring at lower levels, and every class that doesn't have AoE at really low levels is both frustrating AND boring. Especially dragoon. Why TF is their first AoE so late?

Melees don't get AOEs until later in their rotations because they operate under the principle that DPS should remove problem monsters first, rather than AOEing everything down in unison. Also the fact that they have higher potencies innately over ranged, and used to have higher weapon damage too, meaning unless you pulled two or more groups, single target was still better damage. That and the artifact that was TP, along with the skill invigorate originally being a subclass skill only obtained by having level 22 Lancer. Even with Invigorate, on melee you'd have to stop AOEing at some point in a pull that lasts long enough or every other pull, due to TP constraints.

As for the topic at hand. No, no, jobs should not be given their entire rotation at 50. That removes all semblance of growth and development associated with the job quest structure and would make leveling feel more mind numbing than it already is(even though I don't feel that way personally). If your request were heeded, the next demand would be to lower the level cap to 50 and never raise it. Then the demand after that would be, why have levels at all. It's asking too much, and it doesn't fix anything.

IMHO, they should consider rebalancing low level rotations, now that TP no longer exists, and add in combo bonuses for using AOEs properly, such as, "Increases potency of next AOE if this AOE hits 4 or more targets." They should reward proper play innately by having proper play enhance the rotation, so it's visible outside of knowing the numbers associated with the tooltips. We already established eons ago that hardly anyone reads their tooltips, let alone maths out potencies, heh. When used properly have the AOE light up to encourage repeated use or maybe have an oGCD tied to it like the Continuation combo. Idk.

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Topic: This game needs to give us all our skills at lvl 50.

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I wouldn't say we need all our skills by level 50, but could certainly do with a more sensible selection of skills by that level.

IMHO, level progression should loosely follow something like the following format:

01-30: A core of 10-15 skills so that every class has something to do both single target and AoE.
31-50: Get your job gauge, a way to build it, and a way to spend it.
51-80: Fleshing out the kit with more advanced or niche tools, and upgrades to older skills.

AoE skills are an interesting one. While it definitely does feel that some classes take "too long" to get their AoEs, I'm not sure I really agree that every class needs to get them "By X Level" or "At Y Level." The game already treads very close to a line where classes can feel too similar. By mandating that all classes get specific pieces of their toolkit at the exact same level it could make the classes feel like they're going through the exact same progression path.

No, frankly it would make early content piss easy unless balanced properly. You know how many dungeons are in ff14? Balancing all of them for 80 skills is a nightmare.

Thankfully as a MCH main, you get 90% of your tool kit at 50 anyways. Besides 2 skills the 30 levels of skills are just “upgrades” or aoe

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's not really that difficult. All they have to do is stop adding abilities to class quests; give us glamours or something instead if we need a carrot on top of enjoying the story.

Beyond that it's not "harder" to make the level requirement for a new skill 50 instead of 80, 90, whatever...

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This would make leveling redundant, and not even what I'm talking about when it comes to the difficulty. That refers to having to rework current content to accommodate the skills that didn't exist when they were designed, and having to constantly do it every time new skills are added, regardless of the level you get access to them.

It's just as easy for you to either sync down to the content, or avoid it entirely. You don't need your roulettes. They are convenient way for you to acquire tomes and exp. In the case of tomes, I am actually really surprised this game allows you to acquire the most current currency running old content in the first place, but I also understand that it is really helpful to give incentive to players to run content they've already cleared. However, getting hacked at the kneecaps when you use roulettes is part of the cost to that convenience.

Again; if you want to use your max level skillset, then I highly suggest you queue into max level content. Period.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Melees don't get AOEs until later in their rotations because they operate under the principle that DPS should remove problem monsters first, rather than AOEing everything down in unison. Also the fact that they have higher potencies innately over ranged, and used to have higher weapon damage too, meaning unless you pulled two or more groups, single target was still better damage. That and the artifact that was TP, along with the skill invigorate originally being a subclass skill only obtained by having level 22 Lancer. Even with Invigorate, on melee you'd have to stop AOEing at some point in a pull that lasts long enough or every other pull, due to TP constraints.

As for the topic at hand. No, no, jobs should not be given their entire rotation at 50. That removes all semblance of growth and development associated with the job quest structure and would make leveling feel more mind numbing than it already is(even though I don't feel that way personally). If your request were heeded, the next demand would be to lower the level cap to 50 and never raise it. Then the demand after that would be, why have levels at all. It's asking too much, and it doesn't fix anything.

IMHO, they should consider rebalancing low level rotations, now that TP no longer exists, and add in combo bonuses for using AOEs properly, such as, "Increases potency of next AOE if this AOE hits 4 or more targets." They should reward proper play innately by having proper play enhance the rotation, so it's visible outside of knowing the numbers associated with the tooltips. We already established eons ago that hardly anyone reads their tooltips, let alone maths out potencies, heh. When used properly have the AOE light up to encourage repeated use or maybe have an oGCD tied to it like the Continuation combo. Idk.

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Mobile editing is awful so I can't snip this down lmao but it's really the first paragraph

Whatever the original reason for melee getting their AoE so late, while interesting to think about, the result now is that I absolutely dread getting a very low level dungeon on those dps that have zero aoe... it's just so ungodly boring, and even if it's not actually lower dps than aoe would be, it sure feels like it is. And nowadays anyway, higher level dungeon design lends itself far more to aoe spamming everything down than single targeting anything that isn't a boss. Going from playing dancer the spinny aoe fest to dragoon mc only poke one thing at a time is enough to have me regret queueing for a leveling roulette all by itself half the time :P

I don't think we should just get everything at 50, to be clear, but I would definitely like to see some reallocation of some abilities.

Edit - basically I agree with your last paragraph :p

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Mobile editing is awful so I can't snip this down lmao but it's really the first paragraph

Whatever the original reason for melee getting their AoE so late, while interesting to think about, the result now is that I absolutely dread getting a very low level dungeon on those dps that have zero aoe... it's just so ungodly boring, and even if it's not actually lower dps than aoe would be, it sure feels like it is. And nowadays anyway, higher level dungeon design lends itself far more to aoe spamming everything down than single targeting anything that isn't a boss. Going from playing dancer the spinny aoe fest to dragoon mc only poke one thing at a time is enough to have me regret queueing for a leveling roulette all by itself half the time :P

I don't think we should just get everything at 50, to be clear, but I would definitely like to see some reallocation of some abilities.

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Which is the EXACT reason I used to love getting Bards in low level content due to the fact they got Quick Knock before anyone else.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

AoE skills are an interesting one. While it definitely does feel that some classes take "too long" to get their AoEs, I'm not sure I really agree that every class needs to get them "By X Level" or "At Y Level." The game already treads very close to a line where classes can feel too similar. By mandating that all classes get specific pieces of their toolkit at the exact same level it could make the classes feel like they're going through the exact same progression path.

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I don't see why the difference between jobs needs to be that a few get their aoe late and suck in comparison to others. There are many other ways to differentiate classes other than withholding a core part of their dps toolkit to make them feel "unique".

Aoe is simply a part of the dps role, it should be unlocked early and players encouraged to understand and utilize it in the right situations from the start.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I don't think we should just get everything at 50, to be clear, but I would definitely like to see some reallocation of some abilities.

Edit - basically I agree with your last paragraph :p

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That would be far more feasible, but it's not going to open things up all that much. Even if melees get access to their AoE sooner, healers and tanks are still very limited in their resources for large pulls. It really isn't until lv50 when large pulls become safer to do since this is when they get their first God ability (though WAR does get access to Holmgang a bit sooner for some reason).

In addition to this perspective, I feel it fair to mention that big pulls in pre-50 dungeons are still possible, and they become more possible the higher you go. But, and this is a really good 'but'; what players have to do is further stretch out the resources they do have access to. This is instrumental in teaching players to properly use their abilities, as optimizing them here greatly adds to the player's ability to sustain the group against difficult odds much later. Believe it or not, it's the early content that actually does this, because in the later levels we become so ridiculously powerful that optimal game play isn't required at all.

We don't need to be trivializing content any more than it is already folks.

i wish they did this as well, it would make more sense to have full rotation by 50, then use traits to buff the skills/ change animation
I also wish they would just make cure 1 become cure 2. This way players have better muscle memory of skills/placement.
Lore wise for each class/job are set up as we are done learning at 50 and become a trainer post 50. the 70 quests are a 1 and done, and the lvl 80 quest is just a wrap up of characters. (youtube some stuff)

From what fc told me, you do not get a not of skills between 70-80.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I wouldn't say we need all our skills by level 50, but could certainly do with a more sensible selection of skills by that level.

IMHO, level progression should loosely follow something like the following format:

01-30: A core of 10-15 skills so that every class has something to do both single target and AoE.
31-50: Get your job gauge, a way to build it, and a way to spend it.
51-80: Fleshing out the kit with more advanced or niche tools, and upgrades to older skills.

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the 51-80 can be traits like turns x skill into y skill.

Wouldn't it be easier to pull this off as a level squish instead? While I don't think they're doing this as part of the ARR revamp, it makes sense to me.

IE: A Realm Reborn becomes Levels 1-30. Heavensward 30-40. Stormbloood 40-50. Shadowbringers 50-60. Something like that.

Trim out some of the superfluous dungeons that are in the ARR (Toto Rak can disappear and i'm pretty sure nobody will complain). Streamline the leveling experience as part of the revamp, make it shorter, and then get to the good stuff faster. You'd also then get your abilities more quickly, and have fewer dungeons where you find yourself with fewer abilities.

Otherwise, while I agree with the concept, i'm not so sure that simply giving everyone their abilities at level 50 would make much sense. A feeling of character progression outside of gear is important for a lot of people. If anything, should they stick to the current formula, they should be going through and granting people more of the abilities they are granted between 50-80 earlier in progression. That would smooth out the ability curve while still allowing for a feeling of character progression through level 80, and there are a TON of them that are granted post-50 that I feel could easily be added to the pre-50 progression path.

Just a few thoughts :)

Some Jobs need their AOE earlier, Dragoon is a famous example. Dark gets theirs far too late in the 70s their should be NO reason to have your AOE locked in the late game content unless it’s a gage ability like Blood, Kenki, or so on.

Y’all remember when Gravity was a lv52 skill? Y’all remember how most AOE was just spamming a button? Things have improved.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Mobile editing is awful so I can't snip this down lmao but it's really the first paragraph

Whatever the original reason for melee getting their AoE so late, while interesting to think about, the result now is that I absolutely dread getting a very low level dungeon on those dps that have zero aoe... it's just so ungodly boring, and even if it's not actually lower dps than aoe would be, it sure feels like it is. And nowadays anyway, higher level dungeon design lends itself far more to aoe spamming everything down than single targeting anything that isn't a boss. Going from playing dancer the spinny aoe fest to dragoon mc only poke one thing at a time is enough to have me regret queueing for a leveling roulette all by itself half the time :P

I don't think we should just get everything at 50, to be clear, but I would definitely like to see some reallocation of some abilities.

Edit - basically I agree with your last paragraph :p

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Aoes are not fun now with infinite TP 1 or 2 button spam, low level tanks are absolutely horrible because that is all you do, it feels like you are back to level 1.

To add to this topic, I feel like having skills given through "job Quests" needs to go. It's extremely tedious at this point with how easily it is to level up nowadays. 1-50 requires players to do them at 15, 30, 35, 40, 45 and 50 for most jobs. It gets even worse when you hit 50 and have to go back every 2 levels.

Not saying Job Quests need to go completely because I do love the lore of the game but the fact that you have to stop leveling and go do a quest that requires you to revisit old locations, currently with no flight and talk to a random NPC out in the middle of no where gets a little annoying after a while

This is an absolutely horrible idea for a myriad of reasons. Chief among those being the simple fact that most randoms in this game are already horrifyingly bad and fail to perform at even the most basic level of competency. Tossing an extra 30 levels worth of abilities in by the time you reach 50 will only exasperate this issue and make the sub-80 experience even more agonizing than it already has a tendency to be. Besides that, if you have your full kit at 50 yet the level cap is 80, then that means you've another thirty whole levels (read: just shy of half the leveling experience) where nothing changes. You get nothing new in that entire time and that will make the leveling process nightmarishly boring and encourage people to buy skip potions even more than they already do.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

I don't truly understand why they don't. I get the whole is that they introduce you into the game and job's mechanics and a lot can overwhelm someone but I think getting the rest at lvl 50 is totally fine.

As the game's lvls get longer, the harder it is for new players to stay engaged since 70% of their kit doesn't come together until much later.

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They don't because if you get all your skill at 50, why even have a level 80 cap and increase it every expansion ?

That s why blizzard finally level squish players levels in shadowland.

But I agree in the current state of the game all skills should be available way earlier.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

I'm actually QUITE surprised that CD's aren't taught in the Hall of the Novice...

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There is a lot that isn't taught int he Hall of Novice, which is supposed to teach. Ugh. An unpopular opinion here, but that needs to be redone and mandatory IMO.