It Would be Nice If Duty Mechanics are Explained by In-Game Tool-tips

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I can certainly understand what the OP is saying. It's easy to say "just learn by doing it!" or "trial and error!" but when you're running content that's more than a couple hours old there's often an immediate expectation that everyone already knows everything and sometimes there isn't room for "trial and error." Even in the most hardcore content if it's more than a week old there are many people who just don't accept trial and error. Idiots are going to idiot, but Square could do more to ease the learning process.

That said, I'm not really sure a pop up or tool tip is the right way to handle it. Ideally I would like to see a more active tutorial system like an expansion of the Hall of the Novice.

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Thank you for saying that, and I like the idea of a halls of novice for each mechanic. As a healer when I die, everyone dies, so the pressure feels greater. A wipe is ok, with a gracious party, less so though when one earns their own post in "tales from the duty finder" as "I just had a run with the worst AST ever".

I watch youtubes before a new instance which helps, I try to get my squadron through it so I can get a feel for the area, but a Hall of the Novice encounter that one could play to see the new markers and learn how to get through them would be so amazingly awesome.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

One player will always be able to cause a wipe. A DPS can mistakenly or deliberately take out the group's healer, paving the way to their doom. A tank can cleave the entire group, or not separate their add from another group's and they're done for. A healer can tunnel vision at a very inopportune time which leads to a player death that snowballs into a DPS check not being met.

Not all, but a ton of wipes can be attributed to single derp from one player that cascades into a giant mess. What is important is to not look at it that way, but rather the group as a whole who could not respond and improvise accordingly when things don't go as planned.

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I wasn’t referring to standard/normal wipe causes, but rather knowing things like where to drop meteors or the like. Ozma in the 3.0 raid series is a good example, or Cid in 4.0.

That is to say, a single PC gets targeted with some marker and if they don’t know what to do with it, everybody dies.

I think it'd be good for universal things to be explained to new players a little better. Stuff like the stack marker, soak markers, aoe distant marker (or whatever you want to call the one where you run away from the center) and things like that which we seen in many different fights. Some are obvious but others aren't always as clear. I feel some things we may take for granted as players who have been playing a while. For example I remember back when i joined early on in ARR one of the things that took me a while to learn/get used to was how the timing for the generic, orange aoe markers work. I was frustrated that I was getting hit by attacks that i felt I had avoided. I didnt know that it "snapshotted" where i was when the cast ends to determine if i got hit or not as opposed to where i was when the animation/damage actually happened. Obviously I figured it out eventually but it would have been nice to have it explained or an optional tutorial or something.

Maybe some of this is already covered in the hall of the novice stuff. Wasn't around when I was new so idk what is actually taught there.

However, I don't think more unique mechanics should be explained. I'm definitely just a casual who watches guide video to learn strats, but i imagine one of the fun things about being the first to try new hardcore/endgame content is figuring out how the fight works and how to deal with the various mechanics. Some things should definitely stay as is with the trial and error method.

These fights are specifically designed that way; you are meant to fumble around and die a few times until you learn.

It is the only way these fights maintain any semblance of challenge for newcomers. If it told you exactly how to handle a mechanic, what would be the point of designing the mechanic?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Though it does make me wonder why there was never any stackable damage down debuffs?

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It feels like enfeebling wasn't meant to be a thing in this game. Just dots that gradually reduce HP, or reduce damage by a percentage. None of vulnerability debuffing that can go up to 5 or something for 3.5x damage or whatever. Me thinks they don't want fights being downed too fast.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

Oh wow.

When a mob is about to do a paralyze move or whatever, there is a big reddish(purple?) EYE BALL that flashes on the screen, but I still see people not turning around.

Come to think of it, it doesn't really tell you what to do, just that something bad is gonna happen REAL SOON.

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I played this game for over a year before I learned you could just turn away to avoid AoEs with that eyeball. I just happened to read it while looking up the fox lady fate and how to trigger that.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The inconsistency of markers is something I could consider a valid complaint about encounter design.

Stack AoEs can be indicated by several different markers and not just the obvious "move in" arrows...assuming they're indicated at all and you're not forced to assume that untelegraphed mechanic that killed someone was a stack because of how much damage it did.

They've still been adding new types of markers for existing mechanics types (The pulsing arrow for chasing AOEs and the swirling red "caution" indicator for ranged tank busters springing to mind), so I think it would be nice if they'd go back to older fights and adjust the markers for the sake of consistency.

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I would definitely love it if they went back and updated the indicators on old fights to make things more consistent.

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Originally Posted by Yuuuuuki

designed to make you fail by not telling you what you are supposed to do

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This is exactly the point.
You die, you figure out what killed you, you try again. It's a learning curve.
Not everything is designed to be aced on your first attempt.

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Originally Posted by Yuuuuuki

This is okay in low level dungeons because you can just derp through mechanics and figure it out eventually...

I understand if it's max level end-game content like big raids and big bosses where you need to plan and work with your team to clear stuff...

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So it's ok in low level stuff, and it's ok in hard end-game stuff, where is exactly is it not ok?

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Originally Posted by AduroT

I would definitely love it if they went back and updated the indicators on old fights to make things more consistent.

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The one that got me is the red arrow above your head in Orbonne's Ultima fight, which means "share it with at least one other person who as the same marker".
However this exact same icon, but with a larger AoE circle, is used in the last boss of Doma castle, to indicate an AoE that you don't share with other people.
And that's in the same expansion!

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

These fights are specifically designed that way; you are meant to fumble around and die a few times until you learn.

It is the only way these fights maintain any semblance of challenge for newcomers. If it told you exactly how to handle a mechanic, what would be the point of designing the mechanic?

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Personally find it much more fun to read a text guide first and try to apply that in the game, looking for same patterns you read (not always easy converting text) than to get your dead ass carried by a random PUG. I agree it is fun when the whole party doesn't know what they're doing and you're wiping and progressing, as you're discussing strats. But this is rarely the case in Duty Finder. At least for me as I usually complete (normal) content later after patch release.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

People seem to think that talking to their party and asking them what went wrong is taboo or something. I don't want the game to start holding people's hands. It's really not that difficult to see a mechanic a few times and figure it out, in normal content. If you're having difficulty, ask your party members. They're a resource for you right there in the moment. If it's new content, everyone is in the same boat of not knowing so there's trial and error. It seems like this player base is just asking for handouts more and more instead of actually willing to work for the rewards or willing to plan ahead with a party.

I can guarantee you that if, at the beginning of a dungeon, you tell the group you're new and ask for pointers that they'll offer it.

TLDR: No need to change anything. Just try to learn mechanics and utilize the party that's there with you. There's a well of knowledge there to utilize if you're having difficulty.

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This works for dungeons but not really for (normal) trials and raids. Those have too much mechanics for it all to be explained in text and require more trial and error for them to be learnt. DF parties are also never patient enough to explain, understandably so since there's little use to it, except for 1 very important mechanic perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

People seem to think that talking to their party and asking them what went wrong is taboo or something. I don't want the game to start holding people's hands. It's really not that difficult to see a mechanic a few times and figure it out, in normal content. If you're having difficulty, ask your party members. They're a resource for you right there in the moment. If it's new content, everyone is in the same boat of not knowing so there's trial and error. It seems like this player base is just asking for handouts more and more instead of actually willing to work for the rewards or willing to plan ahead with a party.

I can guarantee you that if, at the beginning of a dungeon, you tell the group you're new and ask for pointers that they'll offer it.

TLDR: No need to change anything. Just try to learn mechanics and utilize the party that's there with you. There's a well of knowledge there to utilize if you're having difficulty.

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so many people not even trying to have any sympathy. The reason a lot of people don't ask is the people who assume they are idiots or lord it over them if they don't get it. ^

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Originally Posted by SamRF

This works for dungeons but not really for (normal) trials and raids. Those have too much mechanics for it all to be explained in text .

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Do they? There's usually one big mechanic (the moon colours in the OP post for instance), and everything else is just something we already know with perhaps a different coat of painting. Besides, trial and error is rarely so detrimental for the whole team once the fight has been around for long enough. I can't think of a trial that can't just be carried with fewer party members.
The game makes it obvious enough when there is someone's first time in that instance, people can adapt and write up that one mechanic that might have caused a wipe.

I'm all for people trying to communicate better and just... try harder again rather than having everything dumbed down over and over again. :)

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Do they? There's usually one big mechanic (the moon colours in the OP post for instance), and everything else is just something we already know with perhaps a different coat of painting. Besides, trial and error is rarely so detrimental for the whole team once the fight has been around for long enough. I can't think of a trial that can't just be carried with fewer party members.
The game makes it obvious enough when there is someone's first time in that instance, people can adapt and write up that one mechanic that might have caused a wipe.

I'm all for people trying to communicate better and just... try harder again rather than having everything dumbed down over and over again. :)

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Don't straw man me into making it look like I want content to be dumbed down, on the other hand I proposed ideas to make normal content more complex than ever before. Not that I expect you to have read the whole thread of course but read my previous posts if you want to understand my position better.

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Originally Posted by Genz

Vuln up and instant KO share the stupid trait of making "healing" irrelevant, and are the source of the problems regarding healer jobs.

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That's sort of what I was saying about vuln ups. If one mechanic gives a vuln, that's fairly survivable. If everything gives a vuln up, there is very little chance for someone new to the content to survive.

In either case though vuln is better than instant death from a healer stand point, if we're considering healer relevance. A player with vuln that manages to live will need more healing or attention to survive raidwide damage. A good player can strategically eat vulns for DPS gains and live, doing this does increase the work for the healer. You're less likely to see a new comer doing this though.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

These fights are specifically designed that way; you are meant to fumble around and die a few times until you learn.

It is the only way these fights maintain any semblance of challenge for newcomers. If it told you exactly how to handle a mechanic, what would be the point of designing the mechanic?

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At the same time this creates a situation where a new comer spends the encounter dead while the rest of the party that has memorized everything plows through the fight. That's not fun.

Mechanics can be designed so that players know what to do, but not the best way to execute them. You can clearly see this in savage fights. Players go in having watched guides, so they know how to do a mechanic, but that doesn't mean that they can do them perfectly. Casual content could be built around a similar idea, where the player knows what is supposed to be done, but not the best way to do it.

Assuming that players know how to handle a mechanic before entering a fight and removing instant wipe penalties would also allow for more variations of a given mechanic to be used. In other words, a mechanic might change slightly every time you queue for a duty, and you'd have to figure out the optimum on the fly. Personally I like the idea of feeling the slight tension of a first time run no matter how many times you queue for something. It would really help break up the monotony of doing something hundreds or thousands of times and would help to keep new and veteran players closer in terms of experience.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

so many people not even trying to have any sympathy. The reason a lot of people don't ask is the people who assume they are idiots or lord it over them if they don't get it. ^

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You're right, I don't have sympathy for people who want their hand held instead of trying to figure it out for themselves. Maybe I grew up gaming that way and that's how I learned so I assume others to do the same? I don't know, but what I do know is that there's plenty of outlets for knowledge on normal tier content. There's no reason to sit in self pity about it instead of picking yourself back up and trying again. Ask for help. I know SamRF said it's not viable in normal content, but that's false. I've been in plenty of parties with new people and I appreciate when they let me know they're new, so I can help.

I literally pulled A12 for the first time today, told them I was new, and they waited while typing out a brief but informative overview, enough that I got in my gate and didn't stack poorly and everything. In my experience, while there are jerks who don't like helping new folks in this game, there are far more folks who just want everyone to have fun and get through things. They'd rather teach you the strat than have to pick up your slack because you're tanking the floor.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

so many people not even trying to have any sympathy. The reason a lot of people don't ask is the people who assume they are idiots or lord it over them if they don't get it. ^

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If people have time to ask in chat, they have time to go to YouTube and watch a video explaining the fight.

Granted this is different for prog, or listed blind runs.

The thing a lot of people don't seem to be appreciating, is that at one point all of these fights were brand new, and everyone went in blind, and figured it out via trial and error, and that was great.
While it may not be ideal now that the content is old and not everyone is willing to wait for newbies to get up to speed, it was well suited for the time it was new, and they're not going to go back and change those mechanics now.

Also, it cannot and should not be a case of Casual vs. Hardcore.
It's a hierarchy, of easy, a bit harder, a bit harder again, etc. so that you can learn and progress incrementally until you reach the top or however far you're content with.
Dungeons > Trials > Raids > Extreme Trials > Savage Raids> Ultimate

At some point along that ladder you're going to fall out of your comfort zone and meet some mechanic you don't get right away, and that's a good thing because it's a new challenge.

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Originally Posted by iilan

I literally pulled A12 for the first time today, told them I was new, and they waited while typing out a brief but informative overview, enough that I got in my gate and didn't stack poorly and everything. In my experience, while there are jerks who don't like helping new folks in this game, there are far more folks who just want everyone to have fun and get through things. They'd rather teach you the strat than have to pick up your slack because you're tanking the floor.

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An excellent point made! I would much rather have a new person tell the group so we can assist rather than both sides get frustrated, one from a party member tanking the floor, and the other from failing mechanics and getting down on themselves.

To add to my last post by MsQi, I don't lord knowledge over people nor do I immediately assume they're stupid. I prefer to help first but they have to let us know they're new. Otherwise I couldn't possibly know their situation. Stop assuming everyone is bad.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

Thank you for saying that, and I like the idea of a halls of novice for each mechanic. As a healer when I die, everyone dies, so the pressure feels greater. A wipe is ok, with a gracious party, less so though when one earns their own post in "tales from the duty finder" as "I just had a run with the worst AST ever".

I watch youtubes before a new instance which helps, I try to get my squadron through it so I can get a feel for the area, but a Hall of the Novice encounter that one could play to see the new markers and learn how to get through them would be so amazingly awesome.

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I main healer and am new. I have yet seen this personally, but not a lot of people post on the forums. And if someone makes a stink about wiping because you are new, ignore them. If you tell people you are new, the ball is in their court to make sure you are on the same page as them. They are just as much cause for the wipe as you are for not informing you. No issue asking for help. If they ignore you remember, they are part of the problem not the solution.

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Originally Posted by Awha

If people have time to ask in chat, they have time to go to YouTube and watch a video explaining the fight.

Granted this is different for prog, or listed blind runs.

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Not everyone learns from watching a video though, some ppl learn by short/simple x move does this, avoid by doing y.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

Not everyone learns from watching a video though, some ppl learn by short/simple x move does this, avoid by doing y.

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Main reason I don't watch videos first time for normal duties is because I don't want the animations and art to be spoiled. Want to experience it myself first time. It's also kind of fun imo to try to convert what you've learnt in text guide to the actual encounter by looking for similarities.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

Not everyone learns from watching a video though, some ppl learn by short/simple x move does this, avoid by doing y.

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You can get x move does this, avoid by doing y, by watching a video.

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Originally Posted by Yue_Amariyo

Not everyone learns from watching a video though, some ppl learn by short/simple x move does this, avoid by doing y.

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I am very much a hands on learner. Guides do help, but learning how to successfully handle a mechanic doesn't convert over to long term memory until I actually do the encounter. It's just how it goes. However, the game reuses mechanics so after doing so many instances you start to know what to look for and anticipate when doing fresh content. As an example, just about anytime a boss just leaps out of the screen and becomes untargetable, you pretty much can expect a charge/dive bomb from one side of the arena.

The devs get wise to things like this too, and will start to bait you into taking a hit. So you might see the charge coming, then the safe zones light up and you step right back into divebomb territory, and zap!

Things like that is just a testament that a lot of the learning process is through trial and error, and those who are aware of it tend to be pretty patient about it.

I'm in the "need to build actual combat experience in order to do things right" boat.

First: Did not read all 7 pages..

Is it really an entire 7 pages of arguing about whether they should just TELL us how to beat something?

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Don't straw man me into making it look like I want content to be dumbed down, on the other hand I proposed ideas to make normal content more complex than ever before. Not that I expect you to have read the whole thread of course but read my previous posts if you want to understand my position better.

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(Yes I did, my last line wasn't directed to you but more about the broader discussion here, don't worry! I only replied to the part I highlighted because a multitude of mechanics does not mean it has to be complex, mainly because we know most of these already :) )

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

First: Did not read all 7 pages..

Is it really an entire 7 pages of arguing about whether they should just TELL us how to beat something?

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There's a difference between simply knowing what a mechanic does and knowing how to actually handle it properly.

IE, you can know what all of the debuffs in Hello World, Tsunami II, Light Rampant, and the myriad other debuff spam sequences do, but actually figuring how to position so nobody dies is an ordeal in itself.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There's a difference between simply knowing what a mechanic does and knowing how to actually handle it properly.

IE, you can know what all of the debuffs in Hello World, Tsunami II, Light Rampant, and the myriad other debuff spam sequences do, but actually figuring how to position so nobody dies is an ordeal in itself.

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Attempt 1: Figure out what the mechanic actually does
Attempts 2-infinity: figure out the optimal strategy to deal with it.

Maybe I'm a relic from old MMO's where everything was "science" , but figuring out the mechanics was like 90% of beating the dungeon. In games like FF once you know the way to do it.. doing it right is next to muscle memory.

The specific mechanic the OP is talking about starts ticking you stacking debuffs.. if you wander into the other color it starts a DIFFERENT tick up and clears the first. In my head this makes it pretty obvious you're trying not to overstack a debuff. They're complaining because they couldn't figure out a mechanic instantly instead of dying a few times (heaven forfend you being the first parties to try something with NO resources to look things up or vets to ask).

If you don't want to learn mechanics or you want them spoonfed to you, ask others or look up videos. A big fun part of a lot of raiders/bleeding edge runners is being the first to figure things out.

As some people were mentioning previously, I feel it would be for the better if encounters with enrage timers had less mechanics that were immediately lethal and instead just applied damage down debuffs so you can see more of the fight and get more time to actually figure out the mechanics instead of having to reset every time you reach a new mechanic due to it generally causing a party wipe.

Stuff like Selenomancy being an instakill isn't that bad because you have ample time to figure out that something bad is happening and that you should be doing something to stop it, unlike a lot of other mechanics that will just wipe you instantly if you haven't figured out where everyone is supposed to be when the cast resolves. I still feel like for consistency's sake that the debuff ought to actually specify that reaching five stacks will kill you because virtually all similar debuffs do mention that important little detail.

I also think some are misinterpreting people wanting more information about mechanics as them wanting the game to literally explain exactly how to resolve them. The game itself has already been making things "easier" by adding new markers to mechanic types that were not immediately apparent at first (The Abandoned Factory introducing indicators for chasing AoEs and ranged tankbusters are the most recent example of this). They should at least go back and retroactively add the new markers to old fights for consistency's sake because in some cases the markers are straight-up misleading (IE, the fire stack AoE from the second boss of Sohm Al using the generic red marker).

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

First: Did not read all 7 pages..

Is it really an entire 7 pages of arguing about whether they should just TELL us how to beat something?

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You guessed wrong. It's 7 pages Sesame street fans ooglying at unreleased pics of Big Bird and resident troll getting all mad because no one wants to talk about his over exaggerated liking for Kermit.






(Basically yes)