Is it OK to use bots in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Every week. They purge every Thursday.

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All TOS violations, including MPK, will be legal for the next 12 hours. All DM services will be unavailable until 7am.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

There are a lot of "players" who bot, and over the years it's become sadly evident that SE isn't doing anything serious in regards to stopping them.
The obvious RMT farms from china are swiftly dealt with, but actual players who opt to use bots seems to get no actual punishment.

Maybe one day SE will crack down on these and they'll get the ban they deserve. It's very sad that legit players are surpassed by others using nonstop bots.

Part of the issue may very well be that the STF and director/producer/god Yoshi-P are both mostly isolated to the experiences of Japanese servers.
You look around you don't see RMT (as much) or cheaters botting their way nonstop (as much). It exists but from what I've gathered it's not by any degree close to other data centres.
So if the people in charge of dealing with it don't see a problem, then there is no problem. This is why things don't really get done unless brought directly to him by say a fan at a Q&A or a technical issue at an important time.
I like how the sound output issue we've had for years was solved within a week of Yoshi-P having experienced it during a Live Letter.

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Huh. Guess you are mostly right here... Made a character on JPN Data Centers and wasn't able to find even one Market Board bot not even on a single world. Damn, don't think that I even seen one RMT spammer in Limsa there...
And it seems that whole STF team (the one responsible for keeping an eye on botting, cheating and all that exciting stuff) consists just of 3 japanese employees

https://i.imgur.com/zThJSmy.png

(I think it was 4 as of Stormblood)... And this 3-4 members seems more than enough to keep botting and RMT problem under control mostly on 3 japanese Data Centers.
Could we possibly get a something like "Special Task Force West" team or something?

P.S. Another funny fact: approximately at the same time Market Board botting became more severe on NA & EU servers (around 6 weeks ago) those warping around lvl 1-50 Conjurers and Thaumaturges (they prefer Archers since of ShB for some reason) suddenly gone missing.
I mean this bad boys:

https://i.redd.it/exkmjtwjojj31.png

Before you could just use a player search limited to levels 1-50, Conjurer & Thaumaturge & Archer and 90% of matches were those:

https://i.redd.it/kg8yzgpls6431.png
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...b299c60f87.png

But since those 6 weeks they all went M.I.A. and now you can't find those pretty much anywhere (which is a good thing in its own).
Just as if people who were using those found a better ways of making gill.

I always see those bots in the immortal flames GC, thier usually the default midlander male with low lvl caster dps gear and scribbled together names.

Every now and then when I'm in central thanalan trading in materia at the materia goblin I see em floating in the air or doing thier underground travel, I just laugh and remember that event we had years ago were you'd kill the robots but more would come back, I think that was Square's saying of joking about how no matter how many you ban more will take thier place.

They really do need a western branch of the STF.

It's honestly a little ridiculous that they're relying on a tiny Japanese team to monitor western servers, particularly when we already have our own GM team to handle the social issues.

If the STF aren't bilingual and they're needing to translate all of the reports that are sent in, that would only complicate matters even further.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

They really do need a western branch of the STF.

It's honestly a little ridiculous that they're relying on a tiny Japanese team to monitor western servers, particularly when we already have our own GM team to handle the social issues.

If the STF aren't bilingual and they're needing to translate all of the reports that are sent in, that would only complicate matters even further.

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I really think someone needs to bring this to Yoshidas attention.
Next live Q&A at a fanfest maybe someone could ask him for some regional STF teams. Not just in the west but for EU too, I'm sure they're just as bad.

Heck, I volunteer, will work for free part time as an intern. Hire me SE.

I love seeing the bots in cities doing the superman take off. Where they just all start flying away like how superman does. Another is when only see there head above the floor looks really creepy seeing just a head moving around.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I really think someone needs to bring this to Yoshidas attention.
Next live Q&A at a fanfest maybe someone could ask him for some regional STF teams. Not just in the west but for EU too, I'm sure they're just as bad.

Heck, I volunteer, will work for free part time as an intern. Hire me SE.

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Canadane, by "West" I meant both, NA and EU. Especially since I am from a European DC myself :P
And mostly every person I know who had some decent experience with crafting and selling via MB complained about how annoying bots presense gets last few monthes. And thats coming from both European Data Centers, Light and Chaos.

Heck, even this whole thread about busting a 1-gill undercutting bot

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...games_economy/

is from Louisoix-Chaos which is EU.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Next live Q&A at a fanfest maybe someone could ask him for some regional STF teams.

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That would be sweet.
Even sweeter if that someone would specify that it's not just about RMT spammers in Limsa but more about programmable botting simulating mouse and keyboard input.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I remember arguing with someone who insisted bots were "necessary" because it isn't fair he had to buy 9k for raid pots, or whatever the prices were at the time.

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This might sound cold, and it's not to you, it's obv about whoever you argued with here.

I think if a player actually defends botting, they should be instantly on a watch list at minimum (I'd prefer suspended, but let's give some 'hope' for 3 months while they 'make legit profits'). Usually if someone is defending botting, they either bot themselves, or do business with a botter. Otherwise, why would they defend something that makes an entire section of the game pointless to do, and causes inflation hardcore?

I think the only reasons a lot of people don't bot are:

1. They don't want to have to pay for a botting program.

2. They're not willing to accept that extremely tiny risk of them getting banned.

3. They don't want to damage their reputation.

In the long run though, the amount of bots has just continued to snowball as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think the only reasons a lot of people don't bot are:

1. They don't want to have to pay for a botting program.

2. They're not willing to accept that extremely tiny risk of them getting banned.

3. They don't want to damage their reputation.

In the long run though, the amount of bots has just continued to snowball as time goes on.

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Sadly someone in our FC posted a rudimentary bot script they found for free because someone was complaining about the length of time required with crafting. Cost is becoming less of an issue. Caused some issues within our FC since we found out they have been doing this for fairly long time.

Reputation is also kind of an odd one since as our FC mate said not like interact with strangers most of the time nor care what people think. Not like it sill hurt his sales, since people will just buy the cheapest itme possible and not care why it is cheap.

SE neess to accept outside evidence, or expand the STF or train GMs to deal with bots.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sadly someone in our FC posted a rudimentary bot script they found for free because someone was complaining about the length of time required with crafting. Cost is becoming less of an issue. Caused some issues within our FC since we found out they have been doing this for fairly long time.

Reputation is also kind of an odd one since as our FC mate said not like interact with strangers most of the time nor care what people think. Not like it sill hurt his sales, since people will just buy the cheapest itme possible and not care why it is cheap.

SE neess to accept outside evidence, or expand the STF or train GMs to deal with bots.

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And vastly improve server code. The bot programs are memory hex editors at the core. This never ever works in online game environments if, one the memory pages sent to RAM are encrypted and two the server refuses the altered data as gospel.

The warping a character anywhere the bot program chooses to is a fine example of server code just accepting what the client tells it. They desperately need to improve server code and the game client to encrypt its own data so it cannot be as easily manipulated by memory editors as it currently appears to allow.

But this requires work, and quite a lot of it. Do SE consider it worth the effort in comparison to the effect it would have if they bothered. Would people play more, sub more, by mogstation fluff more, if they vastly reduced they freedoms bot programs currently have?

It's ok for SE unless it's an RMT bot spamming the chat near aetherytes.
Se does nothing to ban gathering bots.
I''ve reported the same bots again and again and SE still permits them to do it.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think the only reasons a lot of people don't bot are:

1. They don't want to have to pay for a botting program.

2. They're not willing to accept that extremely tiny risk of them getting banned.

3. They don't want to damage their reputation.

In the long run though, the amount of bots has just continued to snowball as time goes on.

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Since SE has made it evident they don't actually care about botters, I've gone from hating them with a passion, to now being grateful for the cheap crystal, shard, cluster, sand cost. (It's me just trying to turn a negative into a positive in my mind because it was driving me insane on Midgardsormr)

It felt like wasted energy to video record and send them a report with a link to the video showing them follow the same pattern for hours and not have anything happen to those characters.

Knowing now that SE doesn't do anything, it's highly tempting. I mean why not? You get all the reward and profit at no effort. Paying for it is not an issue, and people would never know it's me in how i'd set it up. But I've been playing this game too long and totally fall into the #2 category. I'd be devastated if I got banned and lost my houses, so I'll never touch it.

I'm assuming the people that bot might not have anything to lose?

Honestly, it's not fair that I work really hard in this game to gather and craft. I am completely jealous and envious of botters but it no longer is something I can healthily say is worth getting angry over since it's been close to 4 years now and nothing has changed. I'm assuming turning on anti-cheat measures isn't possible with our game code but I don't know enough about that topic to have an informed opinion on why SE hasn't acted yet.

I would happily challenge any SE programmer, customer rep, even Yoshi-P to make gil without cheating on the market these days. Its almost at the stage where you need a bot to do so. Seen what I suspect is a couple more come online in the last couple days and with more than one "competing" on the market, you do not have the "luxury" of fitting in between their cycles, or having a chance to sell once they have to replenish stock.

Something needs to change. Either SE needs to say they dont give a damn about market botters and cannot do anything or they need to come up with tools so they can do something about an aspect of the game many people do without cheating. Either way, a part of the game they produce is quickly becoming unplayable and they need to fix it... or scrap it.

I don't think it's realistically possible to make a reliable automated detection system for DoH/L bots because while there are certain things they do that are literally impossible for legitimate players to do, they could easily adjust their scripts to stop raising those red flags if it actually started being a problem.

The only thing that might work is some kind of invasive program that monitors the game client and terminates it if it detects any kind of outside applications connecting to it...though judging from WoW's track record, those are also extremely easy to work around, plus SE has gone on record as saying they don't want to use those due to valuing customer privacy.

There's honestly not enough DoL/H bots that they couldn't realistically be kept under control by a small dedicated team because it takes a long time for anything other then shard bot to get a point where they can start raking in significant profits due to so much being MSQ gated. Realistically, I think they need to just train the GMs to identify bots and place them under their jurisdiction as well. I doubt they're having to deal with so many reports that they can't spare some time at night to banhammer some bots during the graveyard shift where they tend to be most active.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I don't think it's realistically possible to make a reliable automated detection system for DoH/L bots because while there are certain things they do that are literally impossible for legitimate players to do, they could easily adjust their scripts to stop raising those red flags if it actually started being a problem.

There's honestly not enough DoL/H bots that they couldn't realistically be kept under control by a small dedicated team because it takes a long time for anything other then shard bot to get a point where they can start raking in significant profits due to so much being MSQ gated.

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Not being a programmer I am not sure what is or isnt possible. And I am sure that there is no program to detect a bot program logging in a character set to use the market like they do. BUT, a person would be able to recognize that a typical player would not be doing that on an account 24/7, changing prices at inhuman speeds then logging out to log back in on the next character in the same order on a 20 minute cycle.

Oh right, I forgot, some players think thats just the way these "people" play and there is nothing illegal or cheating about it. SE seems to agree...

I often craft and sell, even if i am not a dedicated crafter.. when i am undercutted by a gil i feel a bit of irritation because i think.. could you (that undercutted me) go down at least of 1000 gil?
So i started to STOP buying the lowest price item that i see on the market of i am on the side of the customer.
If i Need an item X and there Is One at 9999 and One at 10000 for example i buy the 10000 One.
Ah, and i identified a bot too in moogle, sometimes It sells something i Need (even on other worlds) but i refuse ti buy from him.

Unsurprisingly, I've started seeing bots in Bozja, though in the first case I witnessed, it was one actual talking/responsive player being tailed by a pack of bots with very generic names and no title that I presume were either the player's alts or those of friends. They were also all using the company chocobo mount, which was another giveaway on top of their janky movement as it's the default mount option for most botting scripts.

Also, the people on my server who got removed from the Ishgard rankings for cheating are now back and playing again after an absence, so they just got a slap on the wrist as I was expecting.

Totally ok. SE doesn't care. They are paying for the game like everyone else. Reported gathering/leveling bots and they are still doing it so nothing happened, not even a warning.

Iunno from my wildlife safari notes of bots in the wild

Low level (1-5) midlander warriors/gladiators that are usually sitting somewhere and spamming /say with whatever message in capitals where most people tend to congregate.
1-30 level midlander conjurers off in gridania, farming mobs, and being six yalms under.
1-50 level midlander archers/bards in practically anywhere and are usually just doing the msq.
1-30 level midlander thaumaturges/black mages mostly doing the msq.
(if you do see them arrive at a dungeon entrace, they hop through the geometry)

I could understand DoH bots.
Never seen DoL bots tbh.

That's your typical everyday gil-farming bot.

They're basically committing account suicide by hacking, so their goal is to just rake in as much gil as possible from speeding through the MSQ and farming trash mobs in level 50 dungeons before the next ban wave.

Lately, I've started seeing gibberish-named DoH bots in the floor of the various crafting guilds, so I guess they've realized that shard-farming from the initial DoH quests is another exploitable source of income; albeit one that does not have immediate returns as they need to actually sell the stuff on the MB,

Saw some bots on Bozja 2 days in a row, all in a party between level 4-5 and the tank just attacks the closest mob and the rest of the party assists him. And you can tell they're bots too since you can drag their target mob across the map and put them next to a Star Rank mob and watch them attack it and die.

short answer no long answer no

*Bump* because this is a serious issue that needs more attention. I am sick of all the bots in this game, and nothing being done about them. Its getting to the point where I don't get any joy out of the game because I love to craft and do housing, but all the bots have sucked the fun out of it.

It's not ok to bot, and neither should you. I would say it undervalues the effort people put into the game, which is true for some people, but equally, so it kills any enjoyment and achievement you get in the game since ultimately it is largely predicated on the tools you used rather than your own personal effort and time

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Originally Posted by Veliaire

*Bump* because this is a serious issue that needs more attention. I am sick of all the bots in this game, and nothing being done about them. Its getting to the point where I don't get any joy out of the game because I love to craft and do housing, but all the bots have sucked the fun out of it.

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As much as it deserves attention, it's definitely not a simple undertaking like many would think, especially since people that do the code can equally find ways to subvert any effort, time, and budget that would actually be given to such a project. A lot of trials and errors to get something that works, so as quick as you get rid of them, just as quickly as they come back since they will just simply start fresh. Not to mention some efforts that could be taken, would in the end only inconvenience the player more than it would with botting. That being said SE support could definitely do a better job in handling botters or such.. E.g. if someone is mentioned through several reports they should be on a list that actively monitors the behavior of the account/character to determine whether or not said behavior is that of a human or not.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

It's not ok to bot, and neither should you. I would say it undervalues the effort people put into the game, which is true for some people, but equally, so it kills any enjoyment and achievement you get in the game since ultimately it is largely predicated on the tools you used rather than your own personal effort and time



As much as it deserves attention, it's definitely not a simple undertaking like many would think, especially since people that do the code can equally find ways to subvert any effort, time, and budget that would actually be given to such a project. A lot of trials and errors to get something that works, so as quick as you get rid of them, just as quickly as they come back since they will just simply start fresh. Not to mention some efforts that could be taken, would in the end only inconvenience the player more than it would with botting. That being said SE support could definitely do a better job in handling botters or such.. E.g. if someone is mentioned through several reports they should be on a list that actively monitors the behavior of the account/character to determine whether or not said behavior is that of a human or not.

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however, i think its worth to point even if you report themv via in game, the GMs will refuse to do any type of action against bot. They will refer you to whatever link they send for the STF in the GM call notice but that's about it and thats what people have to do. I think once people see nothing can be done in game, when they are there and the bots are still there, its just kind of a moot point and its to simply quit. I mean go to crystal. Bots are rampant due to it having a majority of preferred worlds. I got tons of screenshots. Whats disappointing is GMs are quick to ban people via video streams and such but they won't take action when something like botting is being reported and in real time.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

As much as it deserves attention, it's definitely not a simple undertaking like many would think, especially since people that do the code can equally find ways to subvert any effort, time, and budget that would actually be given to such a project.

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I disagree. It's as easy as following through with a report and suspending accounts guilty of bot behavior. It's as simple as a GM monitoring a character and seeing that they are doing actions 24/7 with no rest.. Its as easy as seeing a character undercutting everyone on the MB with over 40 retainers, within 20 minutes of a price change.

Its not hard. It doesn't require some sweeping change in the game's code, or a fundamental change in how the game is played. It only requires a minimal amount of attention to be placed on the issue.

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Originally Posted by Veliaire

I disagree. It's as easy as following through with a report and suspending accounts guilty of bot behavior. It's as simple as a GM monitoring a character and seeing that they are doing actions 24/7 with no rest.. Its as easy as seeing a character undercutting everyone on the MB with over 40 retainers, within 20 minutes of a price change.

Its not hard. It doesn't require some sweeping change in the game's code, or a fundamental change in how the game is played. It only requires a minimal amount of attention to be placed on the issue.

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If you look at botting is just a singular person issue or an infrequent issue then yes, of course, monitoring that is an easy undertaking for someone, but when you multiple that singular person by potentially thousands and thousands of reports, with many more reports amongst those already potentially being false and someone feeling griefed, then you are not going to be looking at a minimal undertaking. The volume of people undertaking it changes that effort dramatically, at which point you are looking for more automated systems to analyze behavior because it simply isn't really feasible for a relatively small team to undertake it. Barring a person having 40 retainers as that is insane and a case of the blatantly obvious, especially if in fact true. But if profit margins are there then people will be willing to undercut fairly frequently (If you don't get the sale someone else does, and then they resupply), and a lot of people find it inconceivable that a person would be willing to do this, but they will, and many of them will end up being reported anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

If you look at botting is just a singular person issue or an infrequent issue then yes, of course, monitoring that is an easy undertaking for someone, but when you multiple that singular person by potentially thousands and thousands of reports, with many more reports amongst those already potentially being false and someone feeling griefed, then you are not going to be looking at a minimal undertaking. The volume of people undertaking it changes that effort dramatically, at which point you are looking for more automated systems to analyze behavior because it simply isn't really feasible for a relatively small team to undertake it. Barring a person having 40 retainers as that is insane and a case of the blatantly obvious, especially if in fact true. But if profit margins are there then people will be willing to undercut fairly frequently (If you don't get the sale someone else does, and then they resupply), and a lot of people find it inconceivable that a person would be willing to do this, but they will, and many of them will end up being reported anyway.

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If I were to call you a name in game, and you report me, I would be dealt with rather quickly. The reason the same attention isn't paid to bot reports is because there is probably some policy to ignore said reports and stick with whatever internal means of looking for bot activity they have. For one of the most popular SUBSCRIPTION BASED mmorpgs out there, "its too hard" isn't a good excuse to at least attempt to prevent market breaking activities from happening.

The reason they put so much resources into policing language and negative behavior with regards to other players, is because people are more likely to respond to bad behavior like harassment with quitting the game.. which means less profit for them. Not enough people quit because of bots, so they don't really seem to care if an economy is wrecked.

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Originally Posted by Veliaire

If I were to call you a name in game, and you report me, I would be dealt with rather quickly. The reason the same attention isn't paid to bot reports is because there is probably some policy to ignore said reports and stick with whatever internal means of looking for bot activity they have. For one of the most popular SUBSCRIPTION BASED mmorpgs out there, "its too hard" isn't a good excuse to at least attempt to prevent market breaking activities from happening.

The reason they put so much resources into policing language and negative behavior with regards to other players, is because people are more likely to respond to bad behavior like harassment with quitting the game.. which means less profit for them. Not enough people quit because of bots, so they don't really seem to care if an economy is wrecked.

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I mean whether it is being handled efficiently or not, to handle botting in any major scope, which when you consider all the reports being pushed out, and all the players on the game itself that actively play it is a method which quite dramatically clogs down resources that could otherwise be used elsewhere, which is why I think looking at automated methods is all that more important.

On the comment of comparing it to that of harassment, that's a hard one to compare, irrespective of the effectiveness of a team. You're given a report and it explicitly states the details, all they need to do is reference the log and the evidence is there with a couple of lines of conversation. Then a GM can just simply follow-up and act according to 'policies'. But a lot of bot reports, some will be a simple 5-minute check (e.g. going from 1 side of the map to the other without the aid of aetheryte is technically impossible without third-party tools), but someone doing an 8-hour gathering session may not be so obvious, so such things need a lot more eye to detail, especially to avoid banning innocent people. I do think a better job could be done, but that's only a band-aid in the end.

I do agree that it's a massive problem, just not so much that it is a 'simple solution', at least I can't see it being such!

Honestly, with how bad the bots are I'd say start monitoring for all third-party programs and ban people that use them. Unfortunately, they won't do this because they're terrified to anger the 1% of the players that do the Ultimates/Savages and use ACT.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I do agree that it's a massive problem, just not so much that it is a 'simple solution', at least I can't see it being such!

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failing to do much of anything isnt going to make the problem go away either. FF XIV is regarded as a "bot friendly game in the botting communities". why? because it is VERY well known SE does virtually nothing against serious botters in NA and EU and pretty much just content themselves banning teh most obvious bots like RMT barkers and the droves of kjsdghfskjdfh kjshdfkjsdhf harvesters

I mean judging by the state in game? Yeah sure. They're literally everywhere and sure every month or so I've been told they do a ban wave, but honestly who tf cares? The damage is already done. What do they accomplish with that ban wave? Not a single thing.

Actually that's not true they do accomplish something. A waste of time and money, so you know...there's that.

I mean I hate to dog on SE here but the bot situation in this game is a joke and what's more of a joke is how they're handling it.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Lots of people undercut and don't need a bot to do it. I check my Retainers fairly regularly every day and adjust the prices to undercut when possible. No bot needed.

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Yes, but do you check 40 retainers every 20 minutes every day of the year? Its pretty easy to tell who is a human being is who is a bot in this game. Lets not try to pretend otherwise.

Morally no. In terms of rules, Enix seem to be treating it like ACT. Don't openly tell anyone and they'll turn a blind eye. They haven't even acknowledged it's a rapidly spreading issue or taken any measures. Sure it's not easy to tackle bots in large MMO's, but Enix don't even seem to try. A STF of 3 people in Japan, for the entire game, is a joke.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Morally no. In terms of rules, Enix seem to be treating it like ACT. Don't openly tell anyone and they'll turn a blind eye. They haven't even acknowledged it's a rapidly spreading issue or taken any measures. Sure it's not easy to tackle bots in large MMO's, but Enix don't even seem to try. A STF of 3 people in Japan, for the entire game, is a joke.

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Except you can even admit it in game. I had an ex-fc member actively admit in game chat that he botted his materials, but because he had no crafter he needed other members to make his raid stuff. He even admitted to some of how it works (If you whisper the bot enough, it feigns afk and stops gathering, in case it's a gm.)

This player is still active, and it's been years. You'd think someone actively admitting it would do something, but Square doesn't want to say goodbye to their $15 a month from that person.

After how poorly they handled the cheaters in the restoration rankings (Only a handful of them actually got removed, and it was strictly DoL bots not DoH), I'm thoroughly convinced they just don't care and what little effort they do put in is just a token measure so people can't say they aren't doing anything.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

After how poorly they handled the cheaters in the restoration rankings (Only a handful of them actually got removed, and it was strictly DoL bots not DoH), I'm thoroughly convinced they just don't care and what little effort they do put in is just a token measure so people can't say they aren't doing anything.

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Why should they? This game is taking in record profits as more and more people subscribe. The cash shop has never done better. What reason do they have to improve when the community isn't willing to hold them accountable? FFXIV has the best crafting/gathering system I've seen in an mmorpg and its a shame that Square Enix invested so much effort into creating it only to let it be destroyed by bots.

I've been playing this game since 1.0 but I feel strongly about this issue and don't see myself renewing my subscription as frequently as I do. I'm usually subbed year round but I may change that to 3 months out of the year... and if Ashes of Creation is as good at it looks, I might just stop playing this altogether once that comes out.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

It's not ok to bot, and neither should you. I would say it undervalues the effort people put into the game, which is true for some people, but equally, so it kills any enjoyment and achievement you get in the game since ultimately it is largely predicated on the tools you used rather than your own personal effort and time

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Well, there's some aspects of the game which are fairly unfun. One such aspect is crafting things for the DoH relic tools. Pressing a macro button hundreds of times at half-minute intervals is not what I consider fun. Of course that doesn't make it ok to bot, but it's easy to understand why there's desire for it.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Well, there's some aspects of the game which are fairly unfun. One such aspect is crafting things for the DoH relic tools. Pressing a macro button hundreds of times at half-minute intervals is not what I consider fun. Of course that doesn't make it ok to bot, but it's easy to understand why there's desire for it.

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should try DoL relics....