https://www.fflogs.com/reports/AzjDg...pe=damage-doneQuote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Number 1 ranked log for Shiva Savage at time of posting this
If you take out the whm (9919.7) and Ast (7902.6) from the overall dps (101607.8) you get 83785.5
Shiva Savage Dps requirement is between 84k-85k
No healer dps means you fail.
These are the best of the best players the devs do not expect everyone who does savage to be at that level of play they expect higher than those doing extremes but not cream of the crop elites.
The dev team with this fight prove Yoshi P's statement no longer stands for Savage level content and above.
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05-24-2020, 09:21 AMCrushnight
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05-24-2020, 11:16 AMDeceptusOr Yoshi can still make that statement and simply be completely disconnected from the battle design team. Wouldn't be the first time he's been extremely wrong (healers come to mind).Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
https://i.imgur.com/Uj2J3TN.jpg
Not our issue. They are a global company and if they can't have reps check in from time to time to do spot checks that's terrible business practices. Issues always get worse when they're left to fester.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
The main problem is we don't know what they're thinking because they refuse to talk to us healers. About anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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05-24-2020, 05:57 PMRivinhalI mean think about this logically... The data we're citing is recent. And the statement you're citing is from years ago. What else was different about the game at the time of that statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
The reality is that actions speak louder than words. And the fact that healer DPS is 100% required for savage DPS checks at even the highest level of play is pretty indicative that the statement you're citing from 5 years ago is out of date. Their philosophy has changed. Maybe it hasn't changed in regards to all content, I think we'd all agree on that, but it clearly has changed in regards to high-end content. It's very clearly being factored in there. Pretending it isn't just feels a bit silly, especially considering the circumstances.
I don't understand why this is such a sticking point tbh. -
05-24-2020, 07:27 PMVideraI mean, you're very wrong - and insistent on standing by an outdated statement from 2015. Yes, it does matter that it's an ancient statement. There's a cognitive dissonance between Yoshi-P, the battle team, and the player base at large. You can quite literally argue until the cows come home that the game director said healer DPS isn't factored in once, therefore it isn't, but the data you are being presented with proves that very wrong. Yes, I'll admit, healer DPS isn't factored in for all content - but clearly it is for savage. And you're acting like healers can or should be able to half-AFK healbot through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
As to the crux of the discussion - Healer downtime is literally just boring right now because for two of the classes it's been reduced to mashing one button and another every 30 seconds. Every healer has lost DPS tools, WHM just feels the least bad because it at least has assize and Misery - even if Misery is a loss to use. FFXIV's healers will never have more to heal outside of Ultimate Content, because SE isn't willing to try to shift to triage healing. They can't without a major overhaul of every game system. So the obvious solution here is to make the DPS uptime of healers - which is a lot - more stimulating. A means of doing this is quite literally just scooting on back to the old style of each healer in Stormblood, because two out of there lost more than simple DPS.
Scholars lost their faerie management, Astrologians lost their card management. Both were key parts of their playstyles, and I'll admit I'm more familiar with the former. Playing SCH was like managing two characters, and at a high level, it was very rewarding. -
05-24-2020, 10:21 PMSylveAre you sure about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
FFLogs currently shows the maximums (Using rDPS, not aDPS) as being between 17k and 19k for the DPS jobs. Tanks sit at 10.5k~.
Lets take the 4 random jobs 'best' performers - RDM (18.2k) + DNC (17.9k) + MCH (17.1k) + DRG (18.4k)
Now lets take any two Tanks and do the same - PLD (10.7k) + DRK (10.5k)
Adds up to 92,800 rDPS.
We haven't even added Healer DPS yet. Following the same rules as above, lets take SCH (11.5k) and WHM (11.9k) and throw that in the mix which takes us to a grand total of 116,200 total raid DPS.
And according to you, we only need 85 - 86k to clear Enrage. Which means, taking 4 of the best DPS players and 2 of the best Tank players crushes the minimum to beat Enrage.
He very clearly says in this interview that Healers are only required to DPS when parties are trying to make clears happen without meeting the developer intended party average ilvl. These clears happen because extremely skilled players use unusual strategies, like having Healers push as much DPS as possible, to make a clear happen before meeting the gear requirements as intended.Quote:
Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible.
I would welcome an explanation from you if any assumptions i made in the first half of this post is incorrect. But based on the data provided by FFLogs and the terms laid out in the post i quoted from you, Yoshi was accurate back then and remains so today. -
05-24-2020, 10:29 PMSeraphorAre you saying that only the 6 top tank/dps players in the entire game, on their best day, are expected to be able to clear the current savage at ilvl?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
Then how is everyone else supposed to clear it without healer damage?
Regardless, this post adequately explains it. Your numbers must be off, because this is the current best performance of E8S and it wouldn't have been able to make it without healer damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
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05-24-2020, 10:46 PMAdamFyiDunno where you’re getting those numbers from but the current highest numbers on my end for the roles you listed are:-Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
– Rdm (16.1k)
– Dnc (15.2k)
– Mch (15.3k)
- Drg (15.9k)
– Pld (9.4k)
– Drk (9.3k)
Which amounts to 81.2k total rDPS but will be lower once you take out the healer damage that is already included in those totals. Grabbing a random party that has that exact composition, you remove about 0.672k rDPS from the healers which amounts to 80.5k total rDPS. Looking at the same logs, dropping healer DPS completely drops this group’s combined total to a whopping 79.9k rDPS. These are well below the required DPS check from the encounter. It’s mathematically impossible to clear with those numbers. -
05-24-2020, 10:50 PMLiam_Harperhttps://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ny&dataset=100Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
Where are you getting 17-19k? I see 14.8-16.8k at absolute max percentile with tanks at 9.3-9.5k.
I don't see why we're still quoting an ancient post from Yoshi. He's a nice guy and all, but he's not an encounter designer. Clearly his vision for the game and what his team are creating are two different things. His team are perfectly aware if they don't account for healer dps in enrage timers, even two subpar healers who can fit a Glare every 5 GcD's and keep Dia up would completely trivialize the fight. -
05-24-2020, 11:08 PMAdamFyiWe strangely do have a response from him from an interview from last year. SourceQuote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
In the end though, they did achieve what they wanted. There is actually slightly more healing to do this expansion, but it’s completely offset by the fact that they gave healers absurdly powerful ability healing tools too. The ease of difficulty for dpsing was also mentioned so hmm..Quote:
――ヒーラーなんですが、学者の攻撃の手数がかなり減ってて、賛否が分かれそうな調整だなと感じました。ヒーラーの調整の方針を改めて教えていただけますか。
Q: On to the Healers, Scholar seems to have lost a lot of DPSing abilities, we feel like this will be an adjustment where opinions will vary a lot. Can you go into detail on what the thought process was while deciding on changes needed to balance the Healers?
吉田氏： ヒールを極力せずに攻撃に回すというのが、ヒーラー本来の遊び方とは違うだろうなというところがあって、今回それぞれの特徴は活かしたまま、改めてヒーラー3ジョブの横並び調整を行ないました。もともとコンテンツのクリア自体はどのヒーラーを使っても差が出ないんですが、学者だけが極端に攻撃に寄っていて、プレーヤーのフィードバックが火力の出やすさ出にくさにどうしても寄ってしまうので、まずはきっちりとヒーラーの役割を再定義して、横並びに調整したうえで、それぞれの攻撃の仕方で特徴をつけようという風に変えました。巴術士から学者と召喚士が分かれることによって残っていた弊害部分を今回整理したことが大きいですね。単純に学者の火力を下げたいというわけではなく、ヒーラーとしてバランスを取ろうとしたと考えていただけると助かります。
Yoshida: We believe trying to heal as little as possible and DPSing instead isn’t what a Healers role should be, so we adjusted all 3 Healers to be more balanced while keeping their original characteristics alive. Content can be cleared on any of the Healers, but Scholar in particular had a much bigger toolkit for attacking and player feedback on Healers always focused on the ease or difficulty of putting out DPS numbers. This is why we wanted to precisely redefine the role a Healer has while balancing all 3 and then giving them characteristics through their attacks. A big part was that we sorted out the remainders you had as a Scholar from being an Arcanist first. Please try to look at the changes as us trying to balance Scholar as a Healer and not just trying to lower the DPS output of a Scholar.
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05-24-2020, 11:28 PMSylveForgot to set it to Shiva alone. Those numbers from Edens Verse (All Bosses). I did say i welcomed pointing out where i messed up lol. Thanks for being civil ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
Using the log posted though, removing the Healers puts the raid total at 81,939. So that party would only have needed to find an extra 3k~ or so DPS from the other 6 members of the party. Which equates to 500 dps per person.
Given that log is from May 3, they would almost certainly have better gear by now. Hell, even just fine tuning their play could net them that extra per person.
Is that not the purpose of Savage? To BE that final challenge that requires you to put your best efforts into?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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05-24-2020, 11:34 PMBillythepancakeEven ultimate isn't designed for perfect play, why would savage be designed for the DPS/tanks to play absolutely perfectly while the healers suck their thumbs and contribute nothing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
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05-24-2020, 11:40 PMSeraphorIf anything, that's what Ultimate is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
Savage has a decent playerbase, with about 5-10% of players taking part in it, which is thousand of players.
Yet only a handful are expected to clear it while it's current content? I don't think so. -
05-24-2020, 11:40 PMAdamFyiLooking at that group’s total clears, they have 6 weeks worth of loot and 34 total clears before May 3rd. More than likely they all already hit the max item level cap by the time this was logged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
That got shifted to Ultimate, and even then it’s just a ramped up version of Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
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05-24-2020, 11:44 PMForteNightshadeEven in 2015 that statement was questionable given Gordias and Midas existed. I suspect it was more intended to mean healer DPS wasn't expected in the same capacity as tanks and actual DPS but that some level of damage contribution was still required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
But for the sake of argument. Lets take this statement at face value. This would mean the developers actually design fights where two players can literally stand 50-70% of their time doing absolutely nothing while the remaining six are not afforded such a luxury. Back then, if tanks weren't DPSing they would lose aggro. If the DPS themselves only spammed 123, you'd hit enrage. Basically, if everyone played to the supposed standard of "pure healers," you'd fail the content.
Two players out of six being able to play on their phones for 50-70% of the fight are "not putting their best effort into it." Like I said above, if the remaining six played the same way, you'd fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
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05-25-2020, 12:45 AMAdamFyi
Anywaaaay, putting that Shiva thing aside and hopping back to the topic cause I think this discussion is actually very interesting. I personally don’t think it’s feasible for the developers to shift the Healer paradigm from what it is now to a more “constant healing” role without breaking the game entirely. Would require a lot of time and resources to have to fix everything from the ground up to accommodate that change—something the devs don’t really have.
Looking over that quote from earlier, the devs do want to shift Healers to healing more, but I don’t think that they necessarily mean that there should be more gcd healing. Evidently, a lot of the tools we got for Shadowbringers are absurdly powerful for ability healing. Trying to play ShB content while ignoring any actions gained from 72-80 surprisingly makes for a whole different experience when testing it out. That’s not to say that they should nerf ability healing across the board though. I think they found a sweet spot with that. They just need to figure out something for healers to do during downtime.
Considering their reasonings for making Healer dps more accessible to more players, it stands to reason that they’re not going to budge on this stance. They have the data for it and accessibility was the primary reason for this change according to that interview. So to implement something for Healers to do during downtime, they would have to follow their philosophy of it being (a) accessible for majority of the players, and (b) not interfere with healing. The changes would have to be feasible and not require a significant rework to function.
• Ast has already met those criteria—there’s already a lot to do during downtime as is but I would love to see them increase the potency of Earthly Star’s damage component so that it’s a lot more satisfying to place and position properly. Rewards proper star placement while also giving them that extra firepower. The card system is another beast in of itself so I’ll just put that in the corner for now.
• Whm could possibly bring back Aero 3 but have it function similar to Shadow Fang and Sonic Break; a instant-cast GCD dot that you apply that has double the cooldown of the base dot duration. Gives the Whm an extra tool for weaving and movement allowing for more leniency. This also limits the number of dots that can be applied at any given point in a 24-man raid to prevent dot culling as these dots are only active for a portion of the encounter.
• Sch is a little tougher to accommodate. Maybe they could have an extra action attached to their Faerie instead of adding another GCD dot to its current kit. For illustration purposes, we’ll call it Fey Flare; a strong GCD nuke from the Faerie on the target enemy that uses a certain amount from the Fey Gauge that has a decent cooldown (~30s ish maybe?). If not, they could also make it an instant GCD that consumes gauge (maybe 20?) for every use which introduces a risk if used poorly. Breaks the monotony of spamming Broil too. This simultaneously resolves the issue of few tools to use the Fey Gauge on, and refunds the player if any Aetherflow stacks were used for healing. Of course, this does mean that Energy Drain’s potency would need to be lowered to compensate. Having the potential potency loss from Energy drain be lowered would also serve to make it feel less unsatisfactory when forced to used a healing ability.
This kind of topic is very interesting to me as I really like reading everyones ideas (not the part where people are at each other’s throats ofc lol), on how they would solve the current issues. Gives some perspectives on what people are looking for and what people don’t want. Considering how the developers are building the game is also important too as deviating from what they envision or desire could potentially break something on a fundamental level, and we’d end up with a broken game or healers stripped off of all identity. :O -
05-25-2020, 01:06 AMMindiori
In most ways, I see simplification/removal or 'dumbing down' as taking not just options away from a player. But learning and growth potential too (which I believe is for their personal betterment here and otherwise). So its always been something I've hated passionately.
As someone said early on 'Tunnel vision' is a player issue. To forcefully take away options, simply because people refuse to learn or practice, might sound good to a stats sheet but to fun (arguably the purpose of gaming itself, regardless of how subjective); its detrimental. I feel as if Scholars alone, will almost universally attest to that now. Its important to give people a comfortable journey in (the coming changes to ARR probably serve as an example of similar) but to have no long term depth beneath the surface? That really just kills it. The sense of progress and time invested.
Some comments here, the such like;
''They don't need hugely complex DPS toolkits but something as simple as more DoT management or maybe a tank-esque rotation would certainly go a long way.''
Is effectively correct. Ironically the opposite of dumbing down, albeit a artificial layering and juggling in area's away from their main role - yet add complexity and without bloat. Making someone who realizes their role isn't dps but healing; have to focus more to achieve an optimum result from that damage. That extra depth, means that the most lazy will slide back into their healing role; whilst those who aren't and make an effort have considerably more versatility and options to play with.
If DPS must polish their movement and timing to an extent that its more efficient and have room to do so; but healers lack that because of a overcreep of their effectiveness - then you must give them more to do aside from it as they once had. To engage with. Or it is simply mundane and you give them no joy - ergo, no reason to push the boundaries of the broader role. Especially when the common attitude of making it 'accessible to the braindead'; risks leaving you with a dps kit of a single button.
Like most I don't feel the article is correct in its entirety or lends much to anything that wasn't known before. But I'll stop waffling here, as any time I encounter Gemina I'm reminded how much the strange forum crush I have on her garbles my coherence. In any event, this; Gigantic problems often have a swift and simple solution. It just eludes the convoluted mind.
Doing the opposite of blindly removing things, homogenizing/being lazy and actually adding some well thought out depth to healer management, will work wonders. Sometimes 'mindlessly simple' is exactly that. And it isn't a good thing for role retention because eventually even the simpletons learn - realize how hollow it is and quit. -
05-25-2020, 02:06 AMForteNightshadeI have to disagree because you run into the Assize problem where the healing aspect of Earthly Star no longer matters. You just use it on CD for damage. At this point, Assize may as well be a DPS button because it's actually better to GCD heal than delay it unless you know you won't lose a usage. Earthly hasn't fallen into this problem solely because of its low damage potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
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05-25-2020, 02:18 AMSylveIncreasing the frequency of damaging mechanics would basically remove 'downtime'. It doesn't need to hit harder, Just more frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Currently, Tank busters tend to come up at around the same time as anti tankbuster cooldowns. AoEs tend to come out in intervals that pair with the cooldowns on our powerful AoE abilities.
I disagree completely that that the game would need to be rebuilt to allow for an increase in mechanical frequency. Never needed changes to BCOB etc to account for the current Tanks/Healers vs what they were when BCOB came out.
It'd just mean that compared to newer content, the old stuff would feel a lot easier when we get synced down. Hell, It'd almost work like a training scenario for new Healers to encourage them to utilize DPS when no Healing needs to be done and you can spare the MP for it.
Hypothetically, they could easily use the dungeon progression from 81 - 90 (Or whatever new level cap will be) to gradually increase the frequency of mechanics, getting faster until at cap the mechanics would be happening at a pace where oGCD abilities cannot hope to cover them all.
We'd need to make decisions about when to use an oGCD over using a GCD Heal based on MP levels, Party state, upcoming mechanics, overall cooldown state, Tank mitigation state etc.
We currently don't ever use Cure/Benefic/Physik because we have effectively infinite MP thanks to a plethora of free healing Abilities to use over any GCD Healing. Forcing us to use GCDs on Healing would give value to the traits associated with them for MP management.
Although SCH would need something for Physik, Perhaps even something as simple as returning MP when when used on a target with Galvanize in effect.
Doing DPS as a Healer would be about skillfully utilizing your kit to force open windows where you can safely throw out a few GCDs on damage.
Right now there is literally zero skill involved in doing DPS as a Healer, and its nothing to do with the rotations. We simply memorize the script and press the right cooldown at the right moment when the boss politely asks for it.
Back in ARR, Cleric Stance and its proper use was what separated average Healers from excellent Healers. In a world where damage is more frequent, that distinction could be moved to how well a Healer manages their MP and utilizes their kit to enable their use of DPS.
Spending more time utilizing Healing GCDs would help break up the monotony of spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil for extended periods, as they'd be something we weave in between all the other spells we have. -
05-25-2020, 02:57 AMGucciSanI couldn’t agree more with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
Leveling dungeon pulls are exciting because I get to utilize my kit to the fullest. Trials I could get away with not healing for absurd periods of time but not through any creative play on my part. There’s no real thought into minimizing healing because the bosses don’t really do much and are so predictable it’s more of a memory game. But leveling dungeons require you to know your kit so you can keep the tank up and squeeze out additional damage and it feels far more rewarding.
They really need to change up their encounter design; not only does it hold healer gameplay from becoming truly engaging, but it prevents them from implementing any new healers with unique mechanics. With the way fights are heavily scripted now, there’s only one type of healer that can work, which is why the current 3 feel so similar. -
05-25-2020, 05:28 AMAdamFyiInterestingly, it’s already this way because there’s already a damage component. To get the most value out of Earthly Star, it’s much more efficient to drop it down off cd like Assize. Getting more casts of it is significantly more value than waiting for the perfect moment to use it. Of course, holding it for an extra few seconds to time it better with an Aoe is always a good idea, but generally keeping it on cooldown gives you better returns.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Genuinely curious why you think it wouldn’t be the case. As it is right now for anything below Ultimate, no matter how much you approach the resource limit, there’s always more efficient ways to plan cooldowns that enables healers to use as few GCD healing spells as possible. Ability healing is absurdly powerful, and simply nerfing it is just needlessly raising the skill floor which goes against what was intended by the developers according to that interview. How would you solve this issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
When the designers have to account for resources, it severely limits the design space they get to work with. We have a prime example in the latest Ultimate where both Healer’s MP bars are completely drained in about ~40 seconds because of the increased frequency of damage in one specific phase. That’s why after those ~40 seconds, the boss does absolutely nothing for like ~2 minutes to allow the Healers to recover. Shiva has something similar at the end of the encounter with Wyrm’s Lament + Akh Morn + Morn Afah. After that she does absolutely nothing but start prepping for the enrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by GucciSan
There exists a limit to damage frequency to design around, but all that accomplishes is needlessly raising the skill floor and limiting encounter design for which the developers are adamantly against according to that interview. Accessibility is their main concern—not deterring players from playing the role. -
05-25-2020, 07:27 AMSemirhageYeaaaaaaaaaah no that's not how the definition of efficiency works. Until the day when all characters have a functionally limitless overheal health pool and their abilities lose effectiveness as a scaling function of their missing HP, the only health that mathematically matters is the last one. Wiggle room for varying skill levels of course, but part of the definition of gaining skill is getting closer to "not what a healer's role should be". This reads a lot more like "We think it's a healer's place to never get better at what they do".Quote:
Yoshida: We believe trying to heal as little as possible and DPSing instead isn’t what a Healers role should be
This is healing from the perspective from a DPS player who doesn't really think all that much about how healing works. Spending as much time doing damage as possible is roughly how skill improvement works for me, so spending as much time healing as possible must be how it works for them! -
05-25-2020, 08:46 AMLiam_HarperThis doesn't say that healer dps isn't included in dps requirements, just that Yoshi thinks we should be healing more than dealing damage.Quote:
Yoshida: We believe trying to heal as little as possible and DPSing instead isn’t what a Healers role should be
Either way it's a misunderstanding. Healing isn't about healing as little as possible, it's about healing efficiently. Overheal and unnecessary GcD are completely wasted actions. They literally do nothing. So we minimize these wasted actions by using our toolkit efficiently and spend the rest of the time contributing to the team in the only other way we can, damage.
It's not our fault our toolkit and the huge lack of incoming damage allows us to be so efficient that we only need to be healing for 10% of the fight. They created this situation. -
05-25-2020, 08:54 AMMindioriWhich is in turn why the 'dumbing down' as I'll call it, to any DPS kit or depth outside it - becomes exponentially detrimental. Others have said the same here too, across the board almost. A rare forum consensus moment - highlighting the fact its so widely noticed now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
If they aren't going to create any reason to do your job, as you essentially say - then it is obvious the choice becomes dps as it is the only remaining activity, sans going afk and making tea. So the wheel spins back to questioning developer competence. Thats not to say 'why havent you fixed it' as much as it is to say 'show that you have awareness'.
The simplification has changed nothing. Its simply resulted in the same tiring return to dps, only this time - its spamming even less buttons and losing consciousness and interest while doing so. It would seem, the ball is in their court. Fix next time, or lose any rational reason to claim you entertain your healers/by that nature your whole trinity system. -
05-25-2020, 09:41 AMVidera
... I'm now realizing how much I miss Shadowflare and Flaming Arrow.
Man. -
05-25-2020, 02:00 PMSylveThe reason is quite simple. Because the Healer's kit isn't changing. We'd retain all the power we have right now, future encounter design would simply have us utilize it differently compared to now.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Just like how some jobs evolve their rotations (BLM, hello) considerably at each expansion's cap, a Healer going back into older content would similarly just return to how things were at that time, just like how a BLM's rotation adjusts according to which expansions content they happen to land in.
On your Ultimate example, that's a phase designed explicitly to burden Healer resources. That Healer MP is drained following that phase is by design and working as intended, so it should be viewed similarly to a DPS check phase where DPS have to burn every resource they have into bursting as much damage as possible with the follow-up phase having no such urgency to account for the fact that all the DPS just spent everything they had to clear the previous phase.
When I suggest to increase the frequency, i mean to reduce the cooldown between mechanics in general.
Take the last boss of Holminster as an example. In a 4m 37s encounter, it uses its Tankbuster just 6 times. Giving it an average cooldown of about 45 seconds. It's Auto Attacks in the mean are dealing just 2000 damage.
Cut that recast from 45 seconds to 15. There's no way the Tank is going to catch every single Buster with an Antibuster cooldown. So you, the Healer, wont be able to cover every hit with Abilities. You'd need to spend GCDs and MP casting cheaper Heals rather than just bombing Cure IIs or you'll run yourself dry.
Similar recasts are found on the rest of the boss damage kit and could be reduced accordingly. We already spend 400mp/GCD to spam DPS and we have infinite MP doing it. By increasing the rate at which damage comes at us, we simply shift some of those GCDs from DPS to Cure/Benefic/Physik to benefit from their associated traits (Except SCH who would need one as i suggested above) for MP management.
Regens and Shields become much more valuable also. Shields especially.
With incoming damage often coming so slowly that a 30 second Galvanize effect would fall off between casts, having that Shield catch more damage would be valuable.
With Abilities pinging the party back to full in seconds, Regens like Medica II tend to be a lot of overheal, so having damage come frequently enough that regens are still ticking makes them much more valuable as they'd tick for full duration with considerably less Overheal.
Much like today, You would strive to keep people at a safe level, not necessarily 100% all the time. That'd be wasteful, especially in the scenario i described above.
Nothing stops the dev team giving new skills that assist with MP management in the future.
There'd be no point to such skills in todays Healing world, but in a future where we heal more often with GCDs they'd help separate average Healers from excellent Healers able to DPS and Heal while balancing MP.
Disclaimer: My use of the Holminster boss is not a suggestion to change existing mechanics, it was simply to demonstrate using familiar mechanics how we can increase frequency in post ShB content without turning the game into whack-a-mole or AoE spam. -
05-25-2020, 02:37 PMCurisu
I remember the first week of e8s, when player died to the first AOE, and I as tank constantly died to the early, hard hitting auto attacks.
The first ADD phase AOEs were I even had a few healers leaving because they didn't know how to keep us up.
A few weeks later both healers were able to do the same dmg as the tanks and knew when they had to use a heal.
I know, it is savage but when you give a normal fight the healing challenge of a savage raid, then you will have the "bad" healer leave healing or the game while the good ones will figure out the fight and do again more dmg then healing.
You even see groups wiping in e8 normal because healers can't keep the group up at the soft enrage. -
05-25-2020, 07:45 PMEaMettProbably really late to the party but.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
You're talking about a party full of the best players in the world ALL pulling 100 percentiles on the same pull (keep in mind parse runners will tend to pick a couple of players and focus on their parses before moving onto two others). It's rare to see 3 100% in a pull, let alone 6.
Just check all the top speed kills for shiva, none of those groups would clear without healer dps. And you can bet they're all BiS with the shiva weapon and chest pieces, so I can't even imagine without those items.
The reality is that the "healer dps isn't factored" is an outdated statement coming from a dev team that doesn't have the best of track records when it comes to making accurate healer related statements.
This is basically ultimate. Which is still 70% downtime. So I'm not sure how much people expect "more frequent" damage to be pushed out but the reality is that it's probably way more than what they think and probably more than many can handle. And at that point mana will need to be reworked which will essentially break old content even synched/minilvled. Not saying it isn't the way to go, damage patterns are definitely what need to be fixed, I'm just saying it's not happening in a game that has 4 arcs/expansions worth of content already in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
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05-25-2020, 10:46 PMDeceptusAnd Grenado Shot. Why do they insist on ranged dps having to go close to mobs for their AoE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Videra
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05-25-2020, 10:50 PMRisvertasashi
While I don't disagree with the points of the article, I feel it's also worth pointing out - the game is balanced to need very little healing when encounters first come out. Even on a fresh savage raid tier, you will spend most of your GCDs DPSing, not healing. So DPSing is a bit more than just this thing done on the side.
(And, you know, with the current MP management, requiring even a few more GCDs spent healing would run everyone dry)
That said, yeah, some healers can't divide their attention well at all, and should focus on healing first. -
05-26-2020, 05:38 AMSemirhageWhile I completely understand this position, I also don't trust encounter design with current approaches to tune this in a way that feels more fun. I've heard people around here say that the "simple" solution is just deleting oGCD heals and forcing healers to GCD more because it's "better".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylve
These GCD healing kits are puddle deep. Lean too hard on them, and you'll start to see Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure Cure. Maybe that's "more satisfying" to some people, but it's pretty much identical to Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare as far as I'm concerned.
While a balancing act between two sleep-inducing halves of a kit might make them more interesting, I don't exactly trust our benevolent class design team to nail that balance. -
05-26-2020, 11:00 AMDeceptusI just had a nightmare vision in which the devs were tired of the player base basically ignoring tier 1 healing spells (cure, physic, benefic) so they gated the tier 2 stuff to only be available after a tier 1 is cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
i.e. Cure II can't be used until Cure is cast. -
05-26-2020, 12:44 PMRasikko
They wouldn't do that unless they bump up tier 1's potency to account for the fact that it's largely both inefficient and insufficient past 65.
Edit: I say 65, because that was the level where I discovered that tier 1's start to scale poorly with HP and incoming damage. -
05-26-2020, 01:34 PMYuella
In SB, WHM needed to cast Cure 1 or Cure 2 to generate lilies. And Divine Benison required a lily. Since it's the only shield WHM have, they had to cast cure 1 or cure 2 in SB or they couldnt shield.
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05-26-2020, 03:51 PMSaefinnI feel like they should just make the tier II an upgrade of tier I, because I've removed tier I from my crossbars...and then healed Sastasha yesterday for a member of my FC who is super new and was like "oh yeah, I need Benefic". It's just bloat except at lower levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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05-26-2020, 08:38 PMMirronTulaxia
Honestly agreeing with that. I have so many healing options in general I'm not sure I ever felt like using just straight Cure. And unless I'm going absolutely nuts MP management isn't a huge problem between Lucid Dreaming and... drawing a blank of the other MP recovery for some reason. Assize I think is the name. So the Cure to Cure II is kind of... moot. I do still sometimes use it, but honestly in dungeons I usually don't need to heal that little of damage, just toss a Regen or some such to fix it, and I'm always drowning in lilies. While in raids I usually need more healing, also plenty of AoE stuff.
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05-26-2020, 09:38 PMDeceptus100% agree. Just upgrade it via trait so it's there in synced content and upgraded in later content. Adjust mana accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saefinn
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05-27-2020, 06:56 PMTruen
The 5.0 vision of healing has actually pushed me into playing other games. It's just too boring to force myself to log in and press 1 button over, and over, and over again. Completely lame.
5.0 ruined healing. -
05-27-2020, 09:44 PMVideraThe fact that my heart rate and overall cortisol levels only rise a little bit when I'm playing with absolute window lickers is testament to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truen
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06-01-2020, 08:56 AMRai_Takara
I'm sure this has been said before but healers don't really need some revolutionary fix to their healing kits. What they really need to focus on is making it active and enjoyable between heals. The common complaint I see is Malefic/Glare/Broil spam. Well, just give healers things to manage between their heals to have a good upkeep of damage, whether it be through buffs are raw dps. At the end of the day, DPS is king and that's just how this game works. Make that part more enjoyable for healers instead of trying to fix the core healing systems which are pretty much fixed now thanks to all prior content existing.
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06-01-2020, 11:12 AMDeceptusI don't think most healers would mind having less dps if they were given tools to increase the party's total dps (Read: Proper SUPPORT skills). You know, like the AST cards that were taken away. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
Perhaps instead of taking away that interesting gameplay from AST, it should have been expanded to the other two.