The Devs have no idea what they are doing with FFXIV’s crafting and economics..

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Setting your own terms of your competition only highlights how little you actually want it.

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Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

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Truss it up however you like.

Less competition is less competition.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

I’m personally getting kind of fed up with this same response. For starters, I like competition, it makes the marketboard more interesting and fun, and I know plenty of other vet crafters that enjoy competition. Here’s the problem though. We enjoy competition that knows what they are doing and knows how to play the market well, people that work hard at cranking out gear, not spamming a googled rotation macro with gear that cost less than 100k Gil. That’s like competing against a player that you hope eventually gets more skilled, but doesn’t.

That is why making too many things accessible, easy, and borderline mindless is an issue for us. (At least for me, anyway) I like competition, and I like a good fight. I can’t get that with hoards of new players spamming macros, using the same techniques, same strategies...day in and day out. It’s boring. FFXIV’s crafting endgame is boring.

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If it helps when I play the mb I dont sell crafted high end gear, I prefer to make use of crafted high end gear rather then sell it. But as they say to each their own you know.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

But a lot of other veteran crafters hate this and it's mostly because they now have significantly more competition in the markets, and I suspect that's where a lot of these complaints ultimately stem from.

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You lost me there.

This same response comes up over and over and over. We do not have more competition on the markets. A veteran crafter knows how to make profit, they have years of experience researching markets. I made many hundreds of millions abusing Reuse, for example, when casual crafters were spamming Facet and Dwarven gear for peanuts. I made no secret of the method either. We'll play the markets just fine.

Like I've said many times here, it's hurting the casual crafter most. Your profits are pathetic now and you can never raise them higher by just crafting. Casual crafters just had to have a slice of that pie that we used to work for, but you can't divide one pie among the entire playerbase. You'll never taste those big 1-2 million+ profits now. Ever. The veterans will, just in other ways besides crafting. We're being pushed away from something we liked so that casual players can make less gil than in the past.

There's also the ingame implications of making gear second only to Savage raid, rain from the sky. Why farm tomes, why run dungeons, why run Eden, why run Nier, why beat EX? Even if you don't craft, just do a few hours maps and bam, full raid gear. Even lv71-79 DoH/DoL gear, it's virtually worthless and might as well be deleted from the recipe list.

I agree with some of what OP says, but the post is all over the place.

Pick a main beef and craft a thread out that. For example the Taxes, which are anti-lore and unfair. Why even assign retainers to cities anymore, when it doesnt even matter which retainer you buy from. A petty change. SE clearly panicking over something, but it should be the bots. New and returning people are increasing player numbers, and the taxes are just a petty way to capitalize on people trying to make an [RP] living.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You'll never taste those big 1-2 million+ profits now.

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Hooboy. So much to unpack here.

First: You totally still get those big profits, your window is just smaller.

Second: Crafted gear is only better if you pentameld. This adds an additional cost that some would rather not deal with. +10 Ilvls is a significant boost in main stats and a fully pentamelded crafted set is about equal, and in some cases better or worse based on the substats in question. For weapons, damage is king. i485 beats out i480 without contest. 100 extra sub stats doesn't even come close.

And 'leveling gear' for crafters and gatherers were pointless as early as Heavensward because of Leves. You might make a stop at x5-x7 if you needed to, but if you were rocking the previous expansions top-end, you ignored everything else.

There's been many in-game updates that did effect the economy and or interest in crafting:

- Server visitation.
- QoL changes to acquiring tedious items (tokens like scrips, beast tribe currencies, tomes).
- QoL changes to update crafting (the revamp pt1 and now pt 2).
- A bigger focus on enticing new crafters with rewards and xp (Beast Tribes, Ishgarde Restoration).
- Extract Materia.
- Coming soon:tm: Crafter Relics

There's been many out-of-game tools and communities that did effect the economy and or interest in crafting:

- Caimie's and others' great guides.
- Rath's famous rotation and the other puzzle solvers out there like Liam_Harper.
- Garlandtools, Teamcraft, ffxiv-beta.lokyst.net etc who create online resurces.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Hooboy. So much to unpack here.

First: You totally still get those big profits, your window is just smaller.

Second: Crafted gear is only better if you pentameld. This adds an additional cost that some would rather not deal with. +10 Ilvls is a significant boost in main stats and a fully pentamelded crafted set is about equal, and in some cases better or worse based on the substats in question. For weapons, damage is king. i485 beats out i480 without contest. 100 extra sub stats doesn't even come close.

And 'leveling gear' for crafters and gatherers were pointless as early as Heavensward because of Leves. You might make a stop at x5-x7 if you needed to, but if you were rocking the previous expansions top-end, you ignored everything else.

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1: Cant vet crafters get a single thing they actually want out of the game? And no, expert recipes aren’t it. It’s just a meaningless mini game with no rewards we care for. (read my post on caimies thread)

2: Cant we get at least one thing we want without players like you constantly trying to argue and shoot them down back to where they were? not everything needs to be shared, some things should require hard work and effort.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

1: Cant vet crafters get a single thing they actually want out of the game? And no, expert recipes aren’t it. It’s just a meaningless mini game with no rewards we care for. (read my post on caimies thread)

2: Cant we get at least one thing we want without players like you constantly trying to argue and shoot them down back to where they were? not everything needs to be shared, some things should require hard work and effort.

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I read your post.

It's amazing how it still comes back to gil, despite saying it's not about gil, and chastising someone for saying it's about gil.

It's this sort of double speak that prompts me to set the record straight when it pops up.

Like that "crafting was hard", when in reality it was just time consuming. Like saying crafted gear being plentiful jeopardizes the other gear rewarding content that isn't savage.

Like saying it isn't about gil or competition, but then immediately request content with less competition that rewards high amounts of gil.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

• Vet and hardcore crafters, as you know, like rewards to show off their hard work and skill. What most of us really enjoyed, though don’t admit, is the reward of selling such difficult crafts on the marketboard, and have them sell at high prices. Because those high prices show that these players have done something very special, and as such, should be able to charge for such a desirable item. In other words, high amounts of Gil should be some sort of reward.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

I’m personally getting kind of fed up with this same response. For starters, I like competition, it makes the marketboard more interesting and fun, and I know plenty of other vet crafters that enjoy competition. Here’s the problem though. We enjoy competition that knows what they are doing and knows how to play the market well, people that work hard at cranking out gear, not spamming a googled rotation macro with gear that cost less than 100k Gil. That’s like competing against a player that you hope eventually gets more skilled, but doesn’t.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Hooboy. So much to unpack here.

First: You totally still get those big profits, your window is just smaller.

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The window is barely a week. That's pathetic compared to the past.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Second: Crafted gear is only better if you pentameld. This adds an additional cost that some would rather not deal with.

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Seriously? I'm getting tired of spelling out how to get hundreds of free materia easily. I've posted it multiple times, there is no cost to endgame crafting. None, just a tiny bit of effort.

It's fairly obvious from your posts that you really hate FF14 crafting. That's fine, it's not everyone's cup of tea. But coming to a crafting thread and arguing over something you hate with people who enjoy crafting and just want to leave feedback makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

1: Cant vet crafters get a single thing they actually want out of the game? And no, expert recipes aren’t it. It’s just a meaningless mini game with no rewards we care for. (read my post on caimies thread)

2: Cant we get at least one thing we want without players like you constantly trying to argue and shoot them down back to where they were? not everything needs to be shared, some things should require hard work and effort.

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Might be on to something there. After reading most of his posts, I have noticed he isn’t interested in a conclusion, only arguing. As most other posters here in the crafting section are. I suspect they just don’t want Veterans to have anything to themselves like in the past.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The window is barely a week. That's pathetic compared to the past.



Seriously? I'm getting tired of spelling out how to get hundreds of free materia easily. I've posted it multiple times, there is no cost to endgame crafting. None, just a tiny bit of effort.

It's fairly obvious from your posts that you really hate FF14 crafting. That's fine, it's not everyone's cup of tea. But coming to a crafting thread and arguing over something you hate with people who enjoy crafting and just want to leave feedback makes no sense.

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Yes. Seriously.

Some don't. Some do. That's the point of having options. That's why trying to say the sky is falling because there's too much crafted gear is false. i380 crafted is only better if pentamelded, and even then, that's only if the i390 stat set up isn't favorable to your class, while also ignoring that i390 tome is upgraded to i400 which is significantly better than crafted gear, while perfect stat Alliance raid has a place if both i400 tome and savage are the worst combination with i380 pentamelded being unfavorable allocation.

Regarding my actual opinion on the crafting, it's serviceable, but I've had both better and worse. The crafting itself I wouldn't care if it simplified more, but I wouldn't be opposed if it gained more depth as well, but the end result is what I enjoy.

The luster wore off very quickly in ARR when it was obvious it was just a basic number puzzle and you repeat the solution ad-infinitum. About as engaging as having to press "Craft" 27-45 times in WoW, only there is that small possibility your craft became worthless.

I don't hate it. I just ain't going to put it on a pedestal it doesn't deserve.

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Originally Posted by Octolusy

Might be on to something there. After reading most of his posts, I have noticed he isn’t interested in a conclusion, only arguing. As most other posters here in the crafting section are. I suspect they just don’t want Veterans to have anything to themselves like in the past.

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I've already had these conversations months ago with people using different screen names.

I don't care to repeat them.

Edit: Well, maybe just the once.

1. I'd like more complex systems. Games older than this one have sported much better systems and economies, though admittedly not in the Themepark genre of MMO. However, the simplification of the current system isn't disagreeable. It really is just moving a notch or two along what is ultimately a very large scale that's only being looked at within a very small frame of reference. For example, if we were to go from simplest to most complex, the gauge looks like

Warcraft --> SWToR --> FF14.

However, if we were to expand the scale to not be so narrowly focused we'd have

[WoW/SWToR/FF14] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>[Black Desert Online] --------------------------> [Star Wars Galaxies]

And this is ignoring a great deal many more systems available in a great deal many more online games.

2. Wanting a more complex system doesn't mean I want to exclude others.

3. I don't have an answer to satisfy everyone. Attempts at compromise got shot down pretty hard because in the end it all came back to gil.

The craft difficulty didn't matter, as long as the process turned off a majority of players.
The reward itself didn't matter unless it netted high amounts of gil.
The inherent struggles that FF14's systems put on itself didn't matter, because then it would mean less net gil gain.

It's the primary reason I've stayed out of Camie's thread. They do good work. No reason for me to jump in there and be like "Uhm, ackshually" with everyone I personally disagree with. They give me plenty of opportunity to do that elsewhere.

Crafting needs Balance. Their needs to be end game for causal and hardcore crafters not just one side. Right now their is only end game for causal crafters nothing for the hardcore end, if their ways none of this talk would be happening. For the record SE does not want master recipes being difficult that only a niche few can do them. With that stance in mind they need to introduce something to take the difficulty spot it once held so hardcore crafters have something to chase after. Nan suggested Grandmaster recipes on the suggestion thread started by Caimie I see no problem with such a thing being added.

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Originally Posted by LostCroisanf

MAX MELDED PLAYERS SHOULD STILL HAVE A HARD TIME CRAFTING NEW RECIPES! it shouldnt be a cake walk even for them. the hell?

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If you give me a crafting system that does the above w/o RNG influence, that requires actual thought to be put into success: sure. Have at it.

If you want ARR-style RNG back: RNG has nothing to do with "hard" and "skill". Only with "tedious" and "out of your control".
No thanks. I like the new system 10x better.

As for the gil: umm.. I still don't see any point for gil in this game outside of housing and wanting glamor items right after a patch drops.

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Originally Posted by Octolusy

I suspect they just don’t want Veterans to have anything to themselves like in the past.

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I'm all for vets having stuff. I'm all for stuff that requires intelligence and skill to work out.
I do not want dumb RNG and "who has the most RL time to dump into a braindead boring activity" to be the deciding factors though.

Yes I realize some people here love to feel "accomplished" for sinking xxx hours into crafting each week and pushing through the layers of grind and RNG.
I just find it completely lame and nothing to be proud of. Any bot program can do that.

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Originally Posted by LostCroisanf

making regular crafting so mindless and easy...taxes....easy master books...you do realize that doesn’t motivate people to NOT buy gil.,,it makes them MORE LIKELY to buy gil from rmt.

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I disagree with this idea. High priced desirable items on the market board causes RMT.

Why? Because I'd argue the vast majority of people who do buy from RMT don't actively, and most likely will never, craft/gather and possibly don't even sell most of their items on the market board to begin with. All of their income comes from activities that give gil that doesn't include the market board, like running dungeons. Since prices have fallen on almost all of the market board items but the amount of gil made from non crafting/gathering activities hasn't gone down they are more likely to already have the gil they need to buy the item they wanted without wanting to buy from a RMT.

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

I disagree with this idea. High priced desirable items on the market board causes RMT.

Why? Because I'd argue the vast majority of people who do buy from RMT don't actively, and most likely will never, craft/gather and possibly don't even sell most of their items on the market board to begin with. All of their income comes from activities that give gil that doesn't include the market board, like running dungeons. Since prices have fallen on almost all of the market board items but the amount of gil made from non crafting/gathering activities hasn't gone down they are more likely to already have the gil they need to buy the item they wanted without wanting to buy from a RMT.

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Literally everything causes RMT. There’s no possible way to prevent it. It’s going to happen no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Nandrolone

Literally everything causes RMT. There’s no possible way to prevent it. It’s going to happen no matter what.

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Not everything causes it to happen as much as others. The developers can design the economy in a way that discourages RMT, not eliminate like you seem think it has to be, from happening.

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

Not everything causes it to happen as much as others. The developers can design the economy in a way that discourages RMT, not eliminate like you seem think it has to be, from happening.

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No, they can't.
Gold has been pretty useless in WoW at times, yet RMT still existed.

Gil is as useless in this game as it gets outside of housing and crafting has little impact on that. Gear drops in value at a ridiculous pace, being affordable to the masses after a week or two.

BTW: I wouldn't blame crafting for the prices. Crafting has very little to do with it, the only stuff that is expensive are the sort of rare RNG based treasure map materials. These would be just as expensive if crafting was a no stats 1 button thing.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

No, they can't.
Gold has been pretty useless in WoW at times, yet RMT still existed.

Gil is as useless in this game as it gets outside of housing and crafting has little impact on that. Gear drops in value at a ridiculous pace, being affordable to the masses after a week or two.

BTW: I wouldn't blame crafting for the prices. Crafting has very little to do with it, the only stuff that is expensive are the sort of rare RNG based treasure map materials. These would be just as expensive if crafting was a no stats 1 button thing.

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Yes, they can.

No they can't "stop" RMT but the amount of real money being used to buy from RMT can be lowered. The goal isn't to stop RMT but to limit the amount of money people spend on RMT. The less these people spend on RMT the more they may be willing to spend on the Mog station, right? lol

Look it's not that I "blame" crafters for RMT, it's that I think that kind of thinking, where lower MB prices causes more RMT, is false.

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

Yes, they can.

No they can't "stop" RMT but the amount of real money being used to buy from RMT can be lowered. The goal isn't to stop RMT but to limit the amount of money people spend on RMT. The less these people spend on RMT the more they may be willing to spend on the Mog station, right? lol

Look it's not that I "blame" crafters for RMT, it's that I think that kind of thinking, where lower MB prices causes more RMT, is false.

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TFW they added Eastern Cherry Trees to the Mogstation because they (On Gilgamesh) range from 12-16 million per tree.

Which was my fault, but lets not go pointing fingers here.

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

Look it's not that I "blame" crafters for RMT, it's that I think that kind of thinking, where lower MB prices causes more RMT, is false.

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Excluding the first weeks after a fresh patch, prices on the MB are already quite low.
Maybe different on your server but over here it is.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Excluding the first weeks after a fresh patch, prices on the MB are already quite low.
Maybe different on your server but over here it is.

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Compared to when I first started playing in late HW the prices on the MB are way lower. I'm saying since the amount of gil non-crafters/gathers are earning is the same/higher compared to the average MB prices is overall good thing as these people will be less likely to want to buy from a RMT.

I'm not asking for prices to be lower either. I'd say we're at a good spot on prices as if someone does want to start their level 80 gear grind they can cheaply do so.

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

I disagree with this idea. High priced desirable items on the market board causes RMT.

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Personally I'd have thought the idea of "hey giving 10$ to an RMT seller would get me a full lv80 melded crafter set and a full 480ilv DoW set, sweet deal!" would encourage RMT far more than "man, 10$ would barely buy me a few pieces, eh guess I'll farm Eden".

But maybe that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Personally I'd have thought the idea of "hey giving 10$ to an RMT seller would get me a full lv80 melded crafter set and a full 480ilv DoW set, sweet deal!" would encourage RMT far more than "man, 10$ would barely buy me a few pieces, eh guess I'll farm Eden".

But maybe that's just me.

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"Just run maps a few hours."

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Personally I'd have thought the idea of "hey giving 10$ to an RMT seller would get me a full lv80 melded crafter set and a full 480ilv DoW set, sweet deal!" would encourage RMT far more than "man, 10$ would barely buy me a few pieces, eh guess I'll farm Eden".

But maybe that's just me.

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I just don't see the kind of people who are willing to buy from RMT to care too much about how much they spend. Maybe more individuals might be more willing to buy from RMT but I'd say the overall amount of money being spent should go down because the main people who do support RMT will most likely do so even if they had to spend many times more.

Even if you could get 100 million gil for $1 I don't see the vast majority of players willing to buy but that would be a sign of much worse problems we're not even slightly close to having to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Nutshell

I just don't see the kind of people who are willing to buy from RMT to care too much about how much they spend. Maybe more individuals might be more willing to buy from RMT but I'd say the overall amount of money being spent should go down because the main people who do support RMT will most likely do so even if they had to spend many times more.

Even if you could get 100 million gil for $1 I don't see the vast majority of players willing to buy but that would be a sign of much worse problems we're not even slightly close to having to worry about.

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It actually comes down to time.

When it comes to RMT, it's by those who have spare money but not spare time, and the thing they want is locked behind an amount of in game currency that they, themselves, do not have the time to get.

Lower prices are less likely to lead to RMT (there's always going to be some) than high prices, simply because when the prices are low, it's far more likely to attain the gil you need through playing.

The closer the market prices are compared to the amount of gil that gets generated by the average player, the better overall the game is for a majority of players. As it stands, things are alright. Day 1 patch drops are still pretty ridiculous profit windows, and then they rapidly drop off to a steady point. I personally didn't make as much this patch as I have, but I also didn't put in the same amount of time. Compared to the 5.05 patch, I made about 20% of the gil with about 25% of the time investment, so a slight drop off, but frankly, I didn't seen the need to stockpile yet more gil this patch.

Gatherers need a little love, but the last time they held any real individual gil gain ability was when Scrips were limited, and you either used them for craft or gathering, which, by and large, I think most people hated at the time.

Probably won't be a popular post here, but I started playing FF14 in 2.3 and started leveling my crafters/gatherers in 2.4 because I wanted to be self reliant and make stuff for my friends, and repair my own gear. I find using the Market Board to be incredibly boring so I rarely sell things, if ever. I really don't know how some people check the Market Board six times a day constantly taking things down and adjusting prices. Personally I'm glad I have to spend less time grinding to make the things I want to make. Whether that be new gear (mostly for glamour I don't do any content above normal raids,) bardings/furniture, or just getting through the leveling process. I considered crafting to be a real chore back in ARR/HW, but now it's something I can relax and do for fun. Going out and gathering up all the supplies to make something is super satisfying, and knowing there is little to no chance I can fail at the craft is nice. I remember back in Heavensward I was trying to make a new tool and I miscalculated slightly and my craft broke. Or the procs weren't kind to me and it NQ'd at 85%. I'm glad all that stuff is gone. I feel for people who miss the ways things used to be, but for people like me it's something that saves me a lot of time and frustration.

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Originally Posted by Finalvalkyrie

Probably won't be a popular post here, but I started playing FF14 in 2.3 and started leveling my crafters/gatherers in 2.4 because I wanted to be self reliant and make stuff for my friends, and repair my own gear. I find using the Market Board to be incredibly boring so I rarely sell things, if ever. I really don't know how some people check the Market Board six times a day constantly taking things down and adjusting prices.

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Okay. So most people just click the history button in their retainer. You never have to actually go check the MB for selling. So people can be chatting or doing glamour and stuff in their room and still update their prices.

Idk why they are still making changes to crafting especially the recent patch.
Sometimes they should just let things be :(

I went to use my macro the other day and did not work because they removed stuff again..
Oh well, will remake new macros that should work until next patch, lol

Yes facts good point I'm always poor, I can't buy MB too much price........

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Personally I'd have thought the idea of "hey giving 10$ to an RMT seller would get me a full lv80 melded crafter set and a full 480ilv DoW set, sweet deal!" would encourage RMT far more than "man, 10$ would barely buy me a few pieces, eh guess I'll farm Eden".

But maybe that's just me.

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I just checked that certain spammer #1 for a full 480 HQ set on sale they want 99$... like wtf?? That also equals 25 mill gil if you buy em... that is more then just gettin it from the mb and way more then most mats would be.

Its beyond me why ppl would do that, really...

Compared to a lot of other MMOs I've played, XIV's crafting is extremely accessible and without limitations/restrictions both in regards to what you can craft and how easily you can obtain the materials for it.

It's kind of a double-edged sword because while everyone being able to easily make everything is convenient, it doesn't make for a very good economy.

I love it when people who don't know a thing about what goes on internally say "the developers dont know the thing they do as a profession." /s

Just going to point out a few things:

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Originally Posted by LostCroisanf

Then we saw “Crafting Recipes at Higher levels will be easier” and realized nothing has really changed, same easy difficulty as before. It’s come to many people’s attention that Square’s FFXIV team ( Yoshida and other devs ) have absolutely no flipping idea what they are doing when it comes to the game’s economy and crafting system. How many times do you need to make crafting easier for players? How many times are you going to nerf recipes that do not need to be nerfed? MAX MELDED PLAYERS SHOULD STILL HAVE A HARD TIME CRAFTING NEW RECIPES! it shouldnt be a cake walk even for them. the hell?

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Not sure if you were around for the mess that was the previous cross class system for crafters. if you were, you will remember things like, "Level CRP to 50; CUL to 37, then ALC to..." You also might remember 6 of the 8 crafters having a unique brand/name of elements skill to add to the antiquated nonsense of the cross class system. You might remember classes like CUL being far more powerful than the others due to amount of skills it had innately, which allowed for more slots to equip skills from other classes; yet, it also was the class that could take advantage of that power the least.

You need to understand that things being made easier does not mean they don't know what they are doing, especially when crafting pre-ShB was a convoluted cobweb of ideas that had no synastry, no rhyme, no reason, and screamed for QoL changes. Pre ShB was a crafting system I am more inclined to believe that they had absolutely no idea what they were doing, and they finally organized that dusty office no one wanted the task of doing.

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As much as I hated the move Reuse....you remove it? you do realize it was a brand new move that YOU put in the game? ....what the heck? and now you add Tax to everyone in the game, along with removing Gil as a reward from collectibles. lol why are you so concerned with Gil being handed out when you’ve been doing that for years? why is it all of a sudden a concern now, Yoshida team?

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The skill Reuse only solidifies my previous statement. It was implemented when they had no idea what they were doing. It's gone now, and rightfully so. Other mistakes are not so easily erased. Things like the changes to taxes and removal of gil rewards from certain activities is to address the gil hoarders in the game. These changes effect the hoarder directly while having very little (if any) affect on those who spend gil regularly. Arguments like these don't do much to speak in favor of the little guy, but rather speak robustly about how your own earnings have been cut.

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making regular crafting so mindless and easy...taxes....easy master books...you do realize that doesn’t motivate people to NOT buy gil.,,it makes them MORE LIKELY to buy gil from rmt. because you are essentially making everything in FFXIV so meaningless, with such little value, to the point where having a lot of Gil is hard as hell. because everyone and their momma is spamming the market with useless gear. you’re making it hard for newer players to earn a lot of Gil. only ones who have a lot of Gil are the vet players from 2.0 - 4.0 when things were still valuable.

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Again, a new player's ability to earn gil in this game is hardly compromised. Crafted leveling gear is still the market that appeals to new players the most, and has remained mostly unchanged for years. They benefit because the HQ stuff they easily craft is purchased from max level players who don't care to craft these items themselves, even though they are more than capable. IOW, your argument would work if new players monopolized items on the market, but they don't; with the exception of some items hardcore MB players don't care to monopolize. Gil buyers aren't motivated. That's why they buy gil in the first place.

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by the way...you once said you wanted to encourage people to not use macros? guess what, buttercup?! PEOPLE STILL USE AND SPAM MACROS! wtf? get rid of them or nerf macros somehow, but you won’t do that will you? you just want everything to be WoW style casual and mindless. gotcha. while you’re at it, implement a crafting action that instantly gives me max Quality and progress, daddy UwU ( that....that was a joke Yoshida, don’t actually do that lol. )

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Who cares? No is telling you that you have to use macros. Devs were fools to think that players wouldn't figure out a way to macro new recipes. The way I see it is recipes that can't be macroed would very likely be too difficult to even be worth the attempt. Devs are never going to accomplish making recipes difficult using the current algorithms they do. The day they stop allowing players to have bloated stats for their "difficult" content, then they might have finally steered the ship in the right direction.

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, yet you guys still refuse to address it properly and fix it properly. adding “Expert recipes” with rewards no hardcore player gives a F about isn’t the solution. really sad what you guys have turned such a wonderful MMO into. shame on you devs, honestly, shame.

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When did they state that expert recipes were meant to address issues with crafting? And what do you mean rewards no hardcore players gives an F about? Do you think casuals are going to grind 8400 SB scrips to get themselves a monkey within the first week of its release? How about those 50k per crafter 'chievos? Do you think they are even going to attempt the expert recipes? The impression I get from your post is that you actually don't know a whole lot about the game and how its economy works, and are instead venting about your own personal experiences because they have been negative. You might want to reflect on the experiences of others before spewing that devs have ruined such a wonderful mmo.

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Originally Posted by ArchangelSavior

Yes facts good point I'm always poor, I can't buy MB too much price........

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So why are you always poor in a game that's throwing gil at you for doing almost any content other than PvP or Gold Saucer?

It's not unlike real life. If you work (do content), you get paid. If you hang out at the neighborhood park (Limsa Aetheryte) doing nothing but watching people, you don't.

I've got an alt isolated on another data center. She's hit 80 on her combat job but hasn't finished Stormblood MSQ yet. I've earned about 10 million gil on her, primarily from selling quest rewards she doesn't need and items brought back from retainer ventures on the MB. I did end up spending a lot of that on gear as she was leveling (no access to the right tomestone vendors because she was behind her level on MSQ) but she's still got over 3 million gil right now. If I was playing her more often, she'd have even more.

Probably the best way to make gil if you're not a hardcore crafter is to join treasure map parties. I can clear 200k gil alone in a 2 hour party, and that's not including the value of all the item drops I also get.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I love it when people who don't know a thing about what goes on internally say "the developers dont know the thing they do as a profession." /s

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But economics isn't their profession. Game design is.

Several years ago, WoW players questioned the Blizzard dev team about why the in-game economies were such a mess. The response from Tom Chilton (the Game Director at the time) was no one on the dev team had taken more than a basic economics course in school so they didn't really know anything about it. They just designed systems to let players trade things around then left it up to players to work out the economics on their own.

It's pretty much the same here, with the big difference between FFXIV and WoW being that we have a limited number of MB listings per character where AH listings in WoW are unlimited. It stifles competition in FFXIV, which allows sellers to drive up prices due to limited availability.

But you also see player lack of economics knowledge displayed on the MB as well. All those bat fangs for 2 gil using up a listing spot instead of the player choosing to sell more valuable items. Things listed below the sell to vendor price when the player could just vendor them and make more gil.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Several years ago, WoW players questioned the Blizzard dev team about why the in-game economies were such a mess. The response from Tom Chilton (the Game Director at the time) was no one on the dev team had taken more than a basic economics course in school so they didn't really know anything about it. They just designed systems to let players trade things around then left it up to players to work out the economics on their own.

It's pretty much the same here, with the big difference between FFXIV and WoW being that we have a limited number of MB listings per character where AH listings in WoW are unlimited. It stifles competition in FFXIV, which allows sellers to drive up prices due to limited availability.

But you also see player lack of economics knowledge displayed on the MB as well. All those bat fangs for 2 gil using up a listing spot instead of the player choosing to sell more valuable items. Things listed below the sell to vendor price when the player could just vendor them and make more gil.

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WoW's economy is pretty different from XIV's for a number of reasons, such as only two professions per character and bind on pick up materials frequently being required for crafts making it harder for people to corner a market (As the player needs to personally go out and acquire them) . I haven't actually played for a long while, but I never used to see the level of craft spamming from the same individuals happening like it does in XIV even though there's literally no effort involved in the crafting process there.

In XIV, the fact that you can have every single gathering/crafting profession maxed on one character on top of being able to buy all of the mats of the market board is partly why the bot farmers tend to maintain a stranglehold over a typical server market after the initial post-patch boom dies down.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

WoW's economy is pretty different from XIV's for a number of reasons, such as only two professions per character and bind on pick up materials frequently being required for crafts making it harder for people to corner a market (As the player needs to personally go out and acquire them) . I haven't actually played for a long while, but I never used to see the level of craft spamming from the same individuals happening like it does in XIV even though there's literally no effort involved in the crafting process there.

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Yeah, but on WoW you could also have 8 different characters all with different professions and mail things back and forth freely. So it was a pain in the butt, but you could get the vast majority of professions if you put in the effort. I personally like that you can just do them all on one character, it saves a lot of hassle for what I'd be doing anyway.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

In XIV, the fact that you can have every single gathering/crafting profession maxed on one character on top of being able to buy all of the mats of the market board is partly why the bot farmers tend to maintain a stranglehold over a typical server market after the initial post-patch boom dies down.

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Now, you've got a good point there. I wouldn't mind it if the scrip/tome mats were untradeable. That'd be just enough to force people to put in effort for their endgame food/gear/whatever outside of gil without making it absolutely obnoxious to get the majority of the materials.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

WoW's economy is pretty different from XIV's for a number of reasons, such as only two professions per character and bind on pick up materials frequently being required for crafts making it harder for people to corner a market (As the player needs to personally go out and acquire them) . I haven't actually played for a long while, but I never used to see the level of craft spamming from the same individuals happening like it does in XIV even though there's literally no effort involved in the crafting process there.

In XIV, the fact that you can have every single gathering/crafting profession maxed on one character on top of being able to buy all of the mats of the market board is partly why the bot farmers tend to maintain a stranglehold over a typical server market after the initial post-patch boom dies down.

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I think Jojoya's point was, game devs probably do not or did not have economists helping them plan their game's economy system. Also, she highlighted how individuals playing the game by large do not have experience being entrepreneurs.

I can't think of single MMO where the dev's have their hands deep in the games ecomony. Dev's add vendor prices and a Market system then leave the rest to the player base, their not going to set up a team to monitor and control the games ecomony.

surprised it took you 4 months to post, for as far as i'm concerned crafting died with the the release of 5.11 and the crazy amounts of xp people got for doing basicaly nothing. Sure people should be able to catch up but that catch up should have been way slower. The results of 5.11 showed very quickly on the MB with gear dropping to bottom prices. Any changes after that was just another nail in the coffin.
And than with todays release, this epic tool that i can now get, its worse than an overmelded facet tool, it will be nice to hang on the wall of my house but that about all its good for.
Regarding the gil sellers.. they could just look at how wow killed that.. buy gill straight from SE through these magical playtime tokens.