The 5.2 dungeon looks like it'll be a lore bomb

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Is that Dalamud at the top by the way?

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I took it to be the planet, before Zodiark did his thing. With the exception of the large, bright spot, it doesn't look too different from the devastated world we saw during the third leg of the Amaurot dungeon.

It COULD be Dalamud, I suppose, but that'd be pretty out-of-left-field, narratively.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Mystery Trial most likely will be Ardbert's body, but if they kill off Elidibus in 5.x and leave us with Zenos as the big bad, I will scream.

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Honestly, I'd brace myself for disappointment, if I were you. The storyline seriously feels as though it's building Zenos up to be the end boss, likely after a merge with Zodiark. Even if we don't kill off Elidibus first, I'll be highly surprised if Zenos doesn't turn out to be the big bad. I don't say this because I WANT Zenos to be the head honcho, mind. It's just how I feel the story is shaping.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I took it to be the planet, before Zodiark did his thing. With the exception of the large, bright spot, it doesn't look too different from the devastated world we saw during the third leg of the Amaurot dungeon.

It COULD be Dalamud, I suppose, but that'd be pretty out-of-left-field, narratively.

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Keep in mind patch art and titles aren't always tied exclusively to MSQ. Considering we're also revisiting Bozja for relics weapons, it being Dalamud would be relevant enough for the patch.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Is that Dalamud at the top by the way? (I assumed by 'fallen star' they meant the original Star of the Ancients and the Terminus that destroyed it... but if that really is Dalamud in the artwork, the fallen star could be much, much more recent...)

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I doubt the title is talking about Dalamund. The word fallen is only used in the English title. The word is basically unfortunate in Japanese, per my assessment towards the beginning of this thread, that started the whole Echo debacle, ah memories.

Dalamund is a literal "fallen star" with fallen meaning descend, but the Thirteenth or "the Star" are fallen, as in "from grace" so they fit better with the actual theme.

Dalamud is really interesting, if that's what it really is. Sure looks like it anyway.
I'm assuming Elidibus is the one going around in Ardbert's body.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

but if they kill off Elidibus in 5.x and leave us with Zenos as the big bad, I will scream.

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Effing hell, same.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Honestly, I'd brace myself for disappointment, if I were you. The storyline seriously feels as though it's building Zenos up to be the end boss, likely after a merge with Zodiark. Even if we don't kill off Elidibus first, I'll be highly surprised if Zenos doesn't turn out to be the big bad. I don't say this because I WANT Zenos to be the head honcho, mind. It's just how I feel the story is shaping.

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What kills me about this absurd push for Zenos they seem to be doing is we know they can write more fleshed out villains than him, so why do they apparently think that someone so flat as Mr. "muh fights" is an interesting big bad?

Is anyone else getting Bhunivelze vibes from Elidibus' glyph? Or is it just me?

https://i.imgur.com/5KaWQY3.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20131119080645

Actually, Shadowbringers kind of felt very Lightning Returns-ish to me. Rediscovering your old comrades and seeing how they live/cope in a completely different world, world ending flood with only several discrete areas not consumed, Eulmore/Yusnaan (cities where people party until they die), etc.

Elidibus' Glyph is part of Zodiark's Glyph from FF XII, which is fitting.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2..._Glyph_Art.jpg

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Shoot me please, no one is understanding any of this it seems.

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People are understanding it. They just don't agree with it. You are over complicating things. There is nothing to indicate Hades used his Echo in any way while recreating Amaurot. Might he have done? Sure. But it isn't necessary for him to have done so, and so it's an unnecessary complication and doesn't lend anything to the discussion at hand

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Originally Posted by Elladie

People are understanding it. They just don't agree with it. You are over complicating things. There is nothing to indicate Hades used his Echo in any way while recreating Amaurot. Might he have done? Sure. But it isn't necessary for him to have done so, and so it's an unnecessary complication and doesn't lend anything to the discussion at hand

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If you went back far enough to respond to this post then you should of seen the resolution post shortly after it. Should be at the top of page 3. And once I mentioned why no one was understanding me, and how I was confusing even myself, someone understood me, yay. And all of that stemmed from a small comment others wanted to dissect. Such is the will of the forum. We have all been tempered by the forum. The forum is life, mwahahaha...

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Originally Posted by Eloah

If you went back far enough to respond to this post then you should of seen the resolution post shortly after it. Should be at the top of page 3. And once I mentioned why no one was understanding me, and how I was confusing even myself, someone understood me, yay. And all of that stemmed from a small comment others wanted to dissect. Such is the will of the forum. We have all been tempered by the forum. The forum is life, mwahahaha...

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The poster who 'understood' you basically said the same as everyone else, namely that Hades could have used the Echo but it's unlikely that he would need to, therefore discussing it is just speculation and isn't adding to the discussion. Everyone who disagreed with you before that said exactly the same thing in different words

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Originally Posted by Elladie

The poster who 'understood' you basically said the same as everyone else, namely that Hades could have used the Echo but it's unlikely that he would need to, therefore discussing it is just speculation and isn't adding to the discussion. Everyone who disagreed with you before that said exactly the same thing in different words

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Which is what I was implying as well. Like I said trying to bridge the dissonance between the two terms in Japanese and English was confusing even me, because I couldn't figure out how to explain their relation, or understand why people didn't grasp it from the start. And everything I found wasn't a "good" example because of my hyper focus on "The Echo", it seemed like it was, when that wasn't even the main point I was trying to convey.

And that back and forth stemmed from a comment I made that said something was "basically the Echo" not that something was the Echo. Once I explained it again making reference to the Japanese title, it seemed to "make sense" because prior to that it looked like I was saying it was 100% definitely the Echo, when I was only trying to imply its possible involvement.

But I would rather not return to that topic as it has concluded and people seem to understand what I was implying now. Albeit, with a few extra left turns.

I saw someone wondering if the Star in the patch title might actually be referring to the Shard that was destroyed in the previous Calamity, hence Dalamud being in the patch art.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I saw someone wondering if the Star in the patch title might actually be referring to the Shard that was destroyed in the previous Calamity, hence Dalamud being in the patch art.

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Echoes of a Fallen Star could refer to any one of the Shards that's been rejoined, and Echoes can also have a literal (in the context of the WoL which the Devs have implied is so) as well as a more metaphysical meaning. Since the dungeon is Amaurotine, I'm inclined to hope it's referring to the original star, of which Zodiark is the Will of the Star made manifest, and so maybe we'll get more detail about the causes of the Terminus event. Any info on that would be grand. But everything is speculation.

Two side notes - Dalamud was never seen as a star, it was the lesser moon, so I'm doubtful about Dalamud being relevant. But yes, we are going to Bozja so they could be using falling heavenly bodies as a thematic device. Also our original Echo vision in 1.0 (possibly of the Terminus event? Possibly of the Battle of Silvertear?) also featured what are commonly called falling stars

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I saw someone wondering if the Star in the patch title might actually be referring to the Shard that was destroyed in the previous Calamity, hence Dalamud being in the patch art.

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That is a possibility, and would make a bit of sense with the possible image of Dalamund in the artwork.

Patch titles usually refer to multiple lore elements, so it's likely going to tie into a variety of things. We'll very likely be getting more information about the original Star, though Eden and the MSQ's could plausibly tie into the Thirteenth again which would also count as fallen. As for Dalamud, it's likely in the patch art due to Bozja Citadel which we'll be exploring for the first time.

Special Site has been updated, and it's interesting to note that it states the Anamnesis Anyder to be part of genuine Amaurotine ruins and not part of Emet-Selch's recreation.

(A bit off topic, but I'm disappointed with the Gear. No special ancient stuff, but Shire recoloured, from the looks of it.)

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Special Site has been updated, and it's interesting to note that it states the Anamnesis Anyder to be part of genuine Amaurotine ruins and not part of Emet-Selch's recreation.

(A bit off topic, but I'm disappointed with the Gear. No special ancient stuff, but Shire recoloured, from the looks of it.)

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Well, dungeon gear or crafted gear. AFAIK, they dont usually mix and match weapons with different armour sets in previews, and those characters are definitely using new weapons. So the logical conclusion is that they are (probably) from the same set, and since dungeon gear from level cap dungeons don't drop weapons (most of the time, certain exceptions exist), its (IMO) crafted gear.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Well, dungeon gear or crafted gear. AFAIK, they dont usually mix and match weapons with different armour sets in previews, and those characters are definitely using new weapons. So the logical conclusion is that they are (probably) from the same set, and since dungeon gear from level cap dungeons don't drop weapons (most of the time, certain exceptions exist), its (IMO) crafted gear.

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Back with Patch 5.1, the Screenshots of Chateau Cosmea showed the Gear that dropped there with other weapons, as there were no weapon drops.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Back with Patch 5.1, the Screenshots of Chateau Cosmea showed the Gear that dropped there with other weapons, as there were no weapon drops.

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Just rechecked the special site, and I stand corrected. Probably should have done that first.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Well, dungeon gear or crafted gear. AFAIK, they dont usually mix and match weapons with different armour sets in previews, and those characters are definitely using new weapons. So the logical conclusion is that they are (probably) from the same set, and since dungeon gear from level cap dungeons don't drop weapons (most of the time, certain exceptions exist), its (IMO) crafted gear.

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That shire re-color is definitely the dungeon gear, the weapons in picture are the current Crafted i460/50 weapons.

So we ARE returning to the bottom of the sea. Wonder how are we getting there this time and for what reason...

While it's presently unclear why we're going back to the seafloor, Bismarck's air bubble and the phantom Amaurot are both lingering effects; getting back down there is not difficult.

It looks like Anamnesis Anyder is a deeper part of Amaurot, one with less of Emet-Selch's glamour overlaying the ruins. Or maybe Ancient technology and architecture really are that durable. (12,000 years on the seafloor tho? Hard time believing it...)

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Deep in the Tempest─deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design─lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices.

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This suggests that this is an actual Amaurotine ruin, and not part of Emet's reconstruction. If that's the case, I wonder what this means about the nature of the Sundering. Could it mean that there are similar ruins on all the shards? If that's the case, perhaps we could discover more on the Source somewhere. An intriguing notion, indeed...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

While it's presently unclear why we're going back to the seafloor, Bismarck's air bubble and the phantom Amaurot are both lingering effects; getting back down there is not difficult.

It looks like Anamnesis Anyder is a deeper part of Amaurot, one with less of Emet-Selch's glamour overlaying the ruins. Or maybe Ancient technology and architecture really are that durable. (12,000 years on the seafloor tho? Hard time believing it...)

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Yeah, ruins surviving 12000 years at the bottom of the ocean is the most unrealistic thing this game have ever tried to make us belief

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

This suggests that this is an actual Amaurotine ruin, and not part of Emet's reconstruction. If that's the case, I wonder what this means about the nature of the Sundering. Could it mean that there are similar ruins on all the shards? If that's the case, perhaps we could discover more on the Source somewhere. An intriguing notion, indeed...

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Except Y'shtola already discounted that posibility, that 12000 years worth of successive Calamities would have all but obliterated any remaining traces of pre-Sundering Ancient structures on the Source - after all, even structures from a mere 4000 years ago are almost non-existant on the Source and practically nothing is known to exist from before the Allag anymore so I'm taking Y'shtola's comments as true in this case.

It also explains why Emet prefered to spend his time on the First despite it drowning in Light that was clearly uncomfortable to him (and not just to set the First tetering towards Rejoining during the Eighth Calamity either) - so he could lay his Amaurot-copy over the actual ruins and surround himself in memories of happier times, something he couldn't do on the Source where he most recently was known by mortals as 'Emperor Solus' and there were no remaining remnants of his time left. Rather sad really.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Or maybe Ancient technology and architecture really are that durable. (12,000 years on the seafloor tho? Hard time believing it...)

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Well the aetheryte in the Ondo Cups seems to be working fine (which is apparently pre-Sundering tech as it's the exact same design as the aetheryte in the middle of the phantom Amaurot, so unless Emet made one for the ondo.... which I very much doubt, it means that is an original one that has been fully operational for 12000 years under the sea (remember, the ondo stated they settled in the Ondo Cups in the first place because the Ancient ruins felt 'protecting' to them, and an aetheryte very much is a 'beacon' that gives comfort and protection in more ways than just for teleporting to.

And besides, the surprising hardiness of Ancient tech and structures... has a trope too. ;)

Y'shtola's theory of the Calamities wiping the Source's ruins away is quite likely, but it's not confirmed. Neither she nor us have actually gone down there and looked for ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well the aetheryte in the Ondo Cups seems to be working fine (which is apparently pre-Sundering tech as it's the exact same design as the aetheryte in the middle of the phantom Amaurot, so unless Emet made one for the ondo.... which I very much doubt, it means that is an original one that has been fully operational for 12000 years under the sea (remember, the ondo stated they settled in the Ondo Cups in the first place because the Ancient ruins felt 'protecting' to them, and an aetheryte very much is a 'beacon' that gives comfort and protection in more ways than just for teleporting to.

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I've always wondered about the logistics behind us paying the usual Aetheryte teleportation fee whenever we port into Amaurot. Even after death, is Emet-Selch still taxing us?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

I've always wondered about the logistics behind us paying the usual Aetheryte teleportation fee whenever we port into Amaurot. Even after death, is Emet-Selch still taxing us?

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Heh, I think any lore reason for teleportation costs are just quietly ignored now for the sake of gameplay as the original excuse has long since stopped being relevant - it's the same as the Amaurotine shades in the Bureau of the Architect charging us gil for things like gyshal greens in that it makes no actual lore sense, but is needed to satisfy gameplay. ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Heh, I think any lore reason for teleportation costs are just quietly ignored now for the sake of gameplay as the original excuse has long since stopped being relevant - it's the same as the Amaurotine shades in the Bureau of the Architect charging us gil for things like gyshal greens in that it makes no actual lore sense, but is needed to satisfy gameplay. ;)

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I almost miss using Anima to teleport in 1.0

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Yeah, ruins surviving 12000 years at the bottom of the ocean is the most unrealistic thing this game have ever tried to make us belief

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Why? In the real world we're still finding statues from the BC era at the bottom of the ocean. This statue is over 2000 years old and crafted with only bronze metallurgy. This game is filled with far stronger fantasy metals and stone.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/srhfArI888g/maxresdefault.jpg

It'd been so long since I did that part of the story that I'd forgotten Y'shtola already made mention of that possibility. Even so, it'll be interesting to explore the ruins on the First and see what new information about Amaurotine civilization we can find out. I wonder if Elidibus will be our "tour guide" of sorts as we go through the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Why? In the real world we're still finding statues from the BC era at the bottom of the ocean. This statue is over 2000 years old and crafted with only bronze metallurgy. This game is filled with far stronger fantasy metals and stone.

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Because sarcasm is funny?

I was poking fun at the person I was answering to

Not every last little detail needs a deep explanation. I suspect the localisation team had a lot of fun with the descriptions of some the Ishgard reconstruction materials for precisely that very reason.

I'd also note that some things are really just a case of game mechanics, such as every aetheryte having a fee associated with it.

At any rate, I'm looking forward to the dungeon - I always enjoy exploring ancient ruins!

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Y'shtola's theory of the Calamities wiping the Source's ruins away is quite likely, but it's not confirmed. Neither she nor us have actually gone down there and looked for ourselves.

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inb4 they're beneath Sharlayan due to tectonic movement shifting where they are relative to the First and this inspired its culture in a spooky "ancient memories" way...

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

This suggests that this is an actual Amaurotine ruin, and not part of Emet's reconstruction. If that's the case, I wonder what this means about the nature of the Sundering. Could it mean that there are similar ruins on all the shards? If that's the case, perhaps we could discover more on the Source somewhere. An intriguing notion, indeed...

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Just bear in mind all of it is actual ruins, over which Emet appears to have super-imposed his own aetheric re-creation. My guess is that the WoL/D will be using the Echo to trigger memories this time. I'm curious as to what may prompt him/her to go there, but since Elidibus is involved on the First, it may be related to him in some manner, unless they want to re-use the whole "ondo spot big baddy" thing again.

Real curious if the dungeon theme for Anamnesis Anyder will be another "lofi hip hop radio - beats to dungeon crawl/tome grind to" type deal. If so will it be another remix of Neath Dark Waters/Mortal Instants or something else entirely.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If anything like that, it might be a "here and now" place that triggers Echo-visions for us but the others can't see the visions.

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I really like the idea of the WoL seeing extra information via Echo-visions while exploring ruins (especially if it becomes confusing for them to separate what's real and what's a memory, and then separating their own memories from others') but I'm curious how well the Echo can facilitate that. Can we see Echos of things that happened pre-Hydaelyn, or would that info remain a mystery outside of whatever we may physically find there?

I imagine at the end of the dungeon a construct springs to life with a mention of how many millennia it has been since "our" last visit. Cue the puzzled look on our face when it spouts broken bits of lore and then we have a vision of events from the past.

The echo vision of the Exarch reading the Heavensward tome also still needs to be addressed. Insofar as I remember, we have never had a vision of the future using the Echo. We even question what that was when it happens to us.

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Originally Posted by Sated

I really like the idea of the WoL seeing extra information via Echo-visions while exploring ruins (especially if it becomes confusing for them to separate what's real and what's a memory, and then separating their own memories from others') but I'm curious how well the Echo can facilitate that. Can we see Echos of things that happened pre-Hydaelyn, or would that info remain a mystery outside of whatever we may physically find there?

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Given the potential meanings of "Anamnesis" in this context (both based on Platonism, IIRC), drawing on the idea of memories of a "true", perfect world, accessible through contemplation (a theme the game touches on in a lot of areas of its lore), but also the notion of knowledge of a past life forgotten through the process of reincarnation, it may be precisely what the Echo will trigger in this case. As far as I recall, it enabled Ysayle to see the truth behind the lie that would trap Ishgard in a thousand-year war, and the same for you through Hraesvelgr's memories, and this time it has a personal connection to the WoL, albeit on a copy of the Source. After all, Hydaelyn did not erase the Source so much as fracture it into 14 shards, so other than whether time itself can render the memory inaccessible, her summoning should have little bearing. They also have the option of having Elidibus show up at some point, or something close to those masks in Oeilvert in FF9, and have either of those trigger the Echo memory, but the personal connection itself may suffice in this case.

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Originally Posted by Riastrad

The echo vision of the Exarch reading the Heavensward tome also still needs to be addressed. Insofar as I remember, we have never had a vision of the future using the Echo. We even question what that was when it happens to us.

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That particular vision is of Crystal G'raha's past. We are experiencing an echo of HIS memories, because that event already happened for him. It's just at the time, we (the WoL) had no idea he was from the future.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

That particular vision is of Crystal G'raha's past. We are experiencing an echo of HIS memories, because that event already happened for him. It's just at the time, we (the WoL) had no idea he was from the future.

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I am inclined to accept that answer. I just find it strange that it was in first person and was pointed out as odd by our character, while being triggered without G'raha being present (granted the previous scene did have him talking to us, unless he was watching us sleep). However, I do buy into the the theory that multiple time lines are at play here. Just because we took one path does not mean the other is gone for good (Arbert's body wandering about as the "Wayward Warrior" when we know he is gone. Though it could be a Sin Eater in there.) Echoes of a Fallen Star indeed.

I would have been inclined to say that echo vision of G'raha Tia in the future was a fluke but since we had yet another one of him from his past with out him being even remotely near us, I would then beg to differ. Also Urianger wasnt even close to us when it happened either. The only one close to us was spirit Ardbert and he wasnt even there when that conversation took place.