Limited Job #2: Beastmaster

I simply want Beastmaster and the only way I could see them implementing it is through a limited job situation as I don't know they would work within a party. As for people wanting another healer, I am not sure why. Every healer is basically a re-skin, which their spells all being basically the same thing just named something different.

Players i do not think have issue with Beastmaster (many want it) but the idea of limited is just so niche and was not popular at all.
In order to improve limited job(s) they would need to add content specific to it and expand on it which takes up lots of time which they really do not have much of.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

This, end of thread.

Limited job is a waste of dev time, either give a job we can use at max level or don't give it at all.

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In YOUR opinion. It seems many players think what they want is what everyone wants and the developers should cater strictly to them. I am in no way saying limited jobs as is are perfect. I just can't see Beastmaster working in party. Now if they made it a real solo class and let you run dungeons on your own, that could work.

Limited Jobs are a waste of Dev time

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Limited Jobs are a waste of Dev time

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According to you, a dev, who has worked on XIV for some years, right? You know all about their time and pay. What an expert we have here.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

In YOUR opinion. It seems many players think what they want is what everyone wants and the developers should cater strictly to them. I am in no way saying limited jobs as is are perfect. I just can't see Beastmaster working in party. Now if they made it a real solo class and let you run dungeons on your own, that could work.

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Yes? did i say that i spoke for everyone?

If it's like BLU where it's released and then nothing for nearly a year, no thanks.

i'd like to see beastmaster added, just not as a limited job. feels like a slap in the face where if your favorite job gets added but you can't actually do any content with it

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Originally Posted by Gula

According to you, a dev, who has worked on XIV for some years, right? You know all about their time and pay. What an expert we have here.

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Don't have to work at SE to see that content who only reward are poetics and seals isn't worth the time. Limited Jobs are a flawed idea. If they could use DF maybe they could work, but right now people will play it for the first few weeks then there is no reason to go back to it. If you think months of Dev time and resources is worth a few weeks of play time ( where many of the players are complaining that the content isn't fun or even worth it) I don't know what to tell you.

Also got to love that there are people in this thread complaining that those of us against the idea of Limited Jobs are being rude by saying so, yet all the people that are actually being rude are those for the idea and throwing fits that anyone dare disagree in the thread.

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Originally Posted by spf1200

Don't have to work at SE to see that content who only reward are poetics and seals isn't worth the time. Limited Jobs are a flawed idea. If they could use DF maybe they could work, but right now people will play it for the first few weeks then there is no reason to go back to it. If you think months of Dev time and resources is worth a few weeks of play time ( where many of the players are complaining that the content isn't fun or even worth it) I don't know what to tell you.

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This logic is so flawed it's comical. So, you surveyed every single active player, and they all told you that they play it for a few weeks then see no reason to get back to it? I doubt this. Maybe you feel this way? Possibly. Or your friends? FC? Or you think some forum goers think this and then you apply it to everyone? What a place we're in.

You know who actually knows about these things? The developers internal metrics. So why don't we let them read their metrics and let them make decisions on what people actually play and for how long? It's a much better determination than your anecdotal evidence.

Scared me with that tittle. I thought they had announced a new limited job somewhere. Heck to the no to that.

I really wouldn't mind more limited jobs if Square Enix simply stepped forward and made one thing perfectly clear - limited jobs are for ****s and giggles.

No more of this "it's a real job, but not a real job." Just flat-out say it - limited jobs are for nothing other than goofing off.

Also, if by some extremely slim chance they actually do add something like this, then they also need to add a minion master job.

http://i.ibb.co/M1dhWFt/puks3.jpg

I already have an army.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Well, excuse me for posting. Didn't realize I would get so much negativity. Anyway for the moderators to just remove this topic then. Obviously, it is of no interest to anyone.

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Well its a discussion forum so of course you will be getting those that agree with you and those that dont. Thats pretty normal. And seeing how the job is barely played and how big the backlash was with the release of the first limited job its not surprising that a lot might not like another job behind it. (Its funny how even some of those that were for limited job disliked it after release because it was not even that OP for being a solo job..and those that wanted a pure solo job were also disappointed because a lot of it is locked behind group content)

I also against another limited job..the extra content for blue is really boring..the job feels like spamming certain skills over and over again while the rest are mostly just the same with a different name..and on top of that the devs need to put time to update it..time and man power that could have been used for other content. More limited jobs will just mean that even more time is spent on something that is death quite fast.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Beastmaster can never become a normal job, simply because the amount of monsters you'd be able to get would have to be limited to 2-4, and would be gotten only through job quests. That's not beastmaster, that's a variant of FFXIV's Summoner.

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Blue can also not learn every spell in existence and some of its spell are restricted to job quests..so not sure why this would be an argument against having a normal beast master. Have 2-4 beasts that you get through quests and that you can use with group content and then on top of that you can have your collection of more beasts. I mean what much can you do with blue right now? Collect some spells and then throw them against the carneval. That might keep some busy but that is not long living content. For what would limited beast master be used after they got their beasts? Their own carneval? Why not have them as normal job and side content? Heck give every job their own specific kind of side content.

Edit:

And for those that say we are the minority and that more people enjoyed it, here some data from the lucky bancho Feb. 19

Blue Mage leveling numbers: png
It seems 46.3% (EU) / 48.2% (NA) / 53.1% (JP) of currently active characters per region have unlocked Blue Mage and 17.8% (EU) / 18.6% (NA) / 27.3% (JP) of currently active characters per region have reached level 50 on BLU.

Not even half the people have unlocked it at that time and NA+EU have not even reached 20% of players that have reached lvl 50 on it..probably the easiest part on playing blue.

And because I am curious: All those who like limited jobs: How often did you really play blue? Do you play it regularly? Have all skills unlocked? I mean its great if you do but I wonder how many truly play this often enough.

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Originally Posted by DumdogsWorld

I really wouldn't mind more limited jobs if Square Enix simply stepped forward and made one thing perfectly clear - limited jobs are for ****s and giggles.

No more of this "it's a real job, but not a real job." Just flat-out say it - limited jobs are for nothing other than goofing off.

Also, if by some extremely slim chance they actually do add something like this, then they also need to add a minion master job.

http://i.ibb.co/M1dhWFt/puks3.jpg

I already have an army.

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PUP is confirmed. You mix and match minions to create your very own abomination to slay all that stand against you. And in between that, you and your favorite crime against nature can share a close bond that sees growth in power from both master and puppet.

Regardless, the interest in BST is clearly here. This job has some of the most active threads on the forum...And it is not even an official job in the game lol.

Limited or not, just don't mess it up like Matsui is doing BST in FFXI. Make it a good job. If it is good, people will play it regardless.

whenever i think of beastmaster in 14 for some reason i think of pokemon.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Well, excuse me for posting. Didn't realize I would get so much negativity. Anyway for the moderators to just remove this topic then. Obviously, it is of no interest to anyone.

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I wouldnt get upset about it tbh. Alot of people Feel BLU would be better in the DF so thats mostly the crowd youre gonna get a response from since they feel the devs arent listening to them. I personally wouldnt mind beastmaster tbh. I feel like after getting another healer we arent gonna need that many new jobs next expansion. But first they need to deal with ironing out the issues they currently have. Personally looking forward to BLU myself

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Beastmaster can never become a normal job, simply because the amount of monsters you'd be able to get would have to be limited to 2-4, and would be gotten only through job quests. That's not beastmaster, that's a variant of FFXIV's Summoner.

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Bard can never become a normal job, simply because the amount of songs you'd be able to play would have to be limited to 2-3, and would be gotten only through job quests.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Yes, lets toss away a system instead of working on it, making it better, perfecting it. I'd rather them make a system better than leave it out to dry. The first is a process of willing to make it work and possibly come up with a few ideas that can lead to them eventually being normal jobs or make current jobs better. The second is basically wasting code, diminishing people's attempts to make something unique, and comes across as a thought process that eventually leads to no innovation because you're so terrified of failure.

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Blue Mage released almost a year ago and they have done precisely nothing to improve upon the myriad of problems. The upcoming patch serves to only add a glorified Wondrous Tales knock off. Since we don't know the full details, this could pan out better than anticipated but this is where the dev team needs to make an impact with Limited Jobs. If Blue Mage is once again relegated to something mildly entertaining for a week before being ignored for 7+ months, it shows—in my opinion, at very least—they simply aren't able or willing to dedicate enough time to make it worthwhile.

Simply put, let's see if they can make Blue Mage fun before discussing a second Limited Job because as of now... it's not a well received addition.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

This logic is so flawed it's comical. So, you surveyed every single active player, and they all told you that they play it for a few weeks then see no reason to get back to it? I doubt this. Maybe you feel this way? Possibly. Or your friends? FC? Or you think some forum goers think this and then you apply it to everyone? What a place we're in.

You know who actually knows about these things? The developers internal metrics. So why don't we let them read their metrics and let them make decisions on what people actually play and for how long? It's a much better determination than your anecdotal evidence.

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I'd like to see this data, but I guess we won't ever. They put resources into PVP as well but there is a very broad consensus that it's terrible in this game, and is only ever taken up due to incentives like gear uniquely accessible through it. Yet how much development time has it consumed when you consider all the re-balancing and the new maps which do little to even improve on its uptake, let alone enjoyment of it...

With their resources spread as thinly as they claim they are, e.g. in relation to the two new races, you would certainly hope the above is true. For the moment all we have to go off is unofficial metrics, like Lucky Bancho's (which put it at 17-18% for NA and EU and 27% for JP at max level as of 9 months ago), but those just show how many people capped it and not necessarily how many people actually enjoyed it. Unlike raiding, or even PVP or Eureka, it's not really a repeat activity.

What they should be asking with any feature they add is not just whether there is a reasonably high uptake of it (a particularly flawed approach with non-repeating content), but whether it's adding any value to the players beyond achievement points or pieces of gear, i.e. whether it's enjoyable for its target audience. Because BLU's figures might only be as high as they are due to completionists in pursuit of achievement points.

They may be looking at figures that they think indicate players appreciate the content, but that doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. Their approach with failed content generally isn't to abandon it but to rework it.

I am still hopeful that the job will be rehabilitated one day into a full job but if it's not, at least it leaves open a slot for a true caster job to be added.

It's kind of interesting to note that BST was, in a way, FFXI's equivalent to a Limited Job. It wasn't ACTUALLY Limited - there was nothing stopping you from bringing a BST into any activity - but it was widely considered by the playerbase to be a solo job. Folks rarely took it into endgame content, and since it could kill regular enemies so efficiently on its own it had little interest in exp parties either.

BLU was pretty much a Limited Job in that game for similar reasons - though a big reason that it stayed out of endgame (usually) was the horrific amounts of TP feed its attacks caused. Enemies in that game had special abilities that required they charge up an internal TP meter, and being hit by player attacks was the primary way for that meter to fill. BLUs' most powerful attacks were multi-hit attacks that charged that internal meter very quickly, causing those enemies to spam their special abilities quickly - and in the case of many boss mobs, those TP abilities were devastating enough that healers needed time to recover the party after each use.

Even if those jobs turned out to be Limited in practice in FFXI (and quite enjoyable in spite of it!), I don't like the idea of ENFORCING Limits, as is the case with BLU in this game. I don't want to see it happen to BST either - but I have to concede that if BST is added at all, it will likely be Limited. Its job concept is exotic, compared to the mainstream jobs, and while I can think of ways to make Beastmaster work as a full job, I doubt the devs will have the patience to work it out.

(Charm would be the first thing to go, I'm certain, so if that's core to your concept of BST, good luck in ever seeing it as a full job. It would more likely end up similar to SMN, with a couple of different monster pets to summon and use in combat.)

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Originally Posted by He-Saiyan

Limited or not, just don't mess it up like Matsui is doing BST in FFXI. Make it a good job. If it is good, people will play it regardless.

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It's been a while since I last played FFXI (I quit shortly after completing Rhapsody of Vanadiel), but BST was pretty much the same as ever at level 99. Has it gone through some major changes, recently? How did Matsui mess it up?

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

I could get behind this, especially if they took the lessons learned from BLU to flesh it out further right from the start. It really does feel like we'd have two choices with a BeastMaster class. Either we get a limited job but with the ability to go a little crazy with it, including the possibility of funky pet controls but with cool powerful abilities, or we get a watered down job that can do End Game content but is BeastMaster in name only. Other users in this thread have posted a couple of their unlimited BeastMaster ideas but I just feel those would end up with a monk/mage that has animals pop out for occasional attacks. Isn't that just what we've already been complaining about with Summoner for years already? Just essentially one button "Hey, here's my animal!" attacks before it disappears into the ether? If what it would take to have a proper BeastMaster is to limit it then I'd actually rather have that.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

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It's with the idea in mind that they'd perform adjustments to make it work and obviously not just take it as it is... either way, the likelihood is that a fourth caster will be added in 6.0 or 7.0, so there will be one in the future.

I think in the end its very simple: We know FFXIV devs are spread too thin. There are direct statements, and evidence looking at sub-systems of the game forgotten and left dying for sometimes more than a year.
We also know the implementation of the first limited Job was an unmitigated disaster, BLU is basically dead content, bug-ridden and has little to no repeatable gameplay value. You touch it once for a few days, push it to max, and are done with it.
Then we see all those other sub-systems that are not updated anymore, and dead in the water: Mahjong, Verminion, Chocobo Races for the Saucer, then we have Fishing lacking its lvl 80 gameplay, PvP recently being all but deactivated and generally not working well, Squadron gameplay, Grand Company rewards and ranks, Housing having major issues (though its not dead really, I ll admit that), Guildhests and of course BLU.

To add to that, content pace has slowed down for dungeons, almost all new content is now released in a permanently outdated gear range, and aside from the MHW crossover and the ultimate fights once in a blue moon, there has been no new concept or subsystem added for max-level gameplay beyond the typical content rotation of 4 raidbosses every 6-7 months.

In light of these critical shortages, the thought of adding yet another subsystem that cannot be maintained and will be impossible to keep relevant sounds like a truly, truly bad idea to those who would rather have one or more of the OTHER shortages being adressed.

HOWEVER: I am always happy to have new classes. I think the WoW Hunter in the olden days had a good idea of a class that tames beasts, but ultimately they are pretty similar to each other, mostly cosmetics and one special ability. That way balancing is easier, and collectors can still run around looking for that rare spawn with the unique color.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

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Red Mage has more life in Ultimate than Blue Mage has since 4.5.

I think another pet class, like a beast master class (as opposed to primal/egi/fairy) would be neat... just... not a limited job. :| If it prevents them from doing limited, could like... one pet per expansion that's unique to each area. One for ARR, one for HW, one for SB, and one for SHB
(Granted, if they did that one would hope more pets for SCH...)

Asking for anything limited is bad. Otherwise they’ll start doing limited everything and think people are okay with it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's been a while since I last played FFXI (I quit shortly after completing Rhapsody of Vanadiel), but BST was pretty much the same as ever at level 99. Has it gone through some major changes, recently? How did Matsui mess it up?

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Unless they changed it recently, a few years ago, they shortened the range you can command your pets as BST from 20 yalms to 5 yalms (SMN and PUP's ranges were untouched), which a lot of players didn't like. Even worse, people were having issues commanding their pets while in range (including being right on top of them).

I don’t mind limited job as long as I don’t have to farm beast from primal fight over and over and over ....

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Bard can never become a normal job, simply because the amount of songs you'd be able to play would have to be limited to 2-3, and would be gotten only through job quests.

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Choose exactly 3 monster types (Couerls, Flans, Wolves, Tonberries, Marlboros, etc etc) out of the X many we have in this game to control, and now explain to everybody else why the types they want aren't making the cut. That is why I'm certain it's not going to be made into a normal job in this game, there would be far too much complaining over certain types not being controllable, or why couldn't all of them be controllable, etc etc. The devs can't win in that situation. Sure they can't win in a Limited Job situation either, but would you rather have a faux Beastmaster or a real one?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Sure they can't win in a Limited Job situation either, but would you rather have a faux Beastmaster or a real one?

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Why can Bard play real life music and even player made songs for other players and is still able to participate in pve and pvp content?

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

You guys really want BLU to be made a normal job just so people can still exclude you off raiding and other stuff because its not as OP or balanced as the other? Look at the casters right now and tell me if you want that. At the very least if BLU was OP thered be a miriad of complaint threads from rdm, smn and blm about it. No thanks I dont want that life.

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Most of the people that play this game dont raid. So I honestly dont care about that "meta" there...I just want those that really wanted to play this job in any group content at all (like recent content and not locked to blue parties or being carried by others..) to have that and maybe if it was done fine it could have been another job I liked too.

So instead of giving the majority of the people a chance to play this job as a main in every content its now utterly restricted and seemingly even the devs dont have a clue on what to do with it. Its a limited job because its too OP..yet its probably one of the weakest jobs at lvl 50..its also sold as a solo job yet most of the skills are grinded in old group content..and the next addition to this after months is another group activity..where is the solo part again?

And carneval really is nothing that special either..and after you have done them once you are only getting something out of it after the weekly reset..and now they even have to put in a mount probably to incentive people to do the new content..

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Choose exactly 3 monster types (Couerls, Flans, Wolves, Tonberries, Marlboros, etc etc) out of the X many we have in this game to control, and now explain to everybody else why the types they want aren't making the cut. That is why I'm certain it's not going to be made into a normal job in this game, there would be far too much complaining over certain types not being controllable, or why couldn't all of them be controllable, etc etc. The devs can't win in that situation. Sure they can't win in a Limited Job situation either, but would you rather have a faux Beastmaster or a real one?

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There will always be limits..blue being limited also did not give him every single spell in the game either. So even if its limited beastmaster will also not get every beast in the game thus you might ask yourself the question too..(they need to create these pets and give them skills and stats.)

What would be so bad about a beastmaster that has x amount of beasts for normal content as a normal job and then give us the option (like the fishing log) to just collect the rest outside of it? What are you even planning to do with a limited beastmaster? Send your beast against fates? Have another carneval that is simply done by having the right beast for the right stage and move out of stuff?

I would be quite happy if every job ingame is a normal job and has side content on top of that. Perform for bards, new monster skills for blue, collecting more beasts for beastmasters. These all could still be there but at least also give the people the chance to use the job in the rest of the content.

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

Asking for anything limited is bad. Otherwise they’ll start doing limited everything and think people are okay with it.

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No. That's not how it works. Like at all. In fact that's incredibly daft to think, given how this game has devs that actually listen.

You are thinking of it as one mistake means you should never, ever try again. Which is, as I said, daft. You burnt your first cake, oops. Why are you not allowed to try again and improve where you failed?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Why can Bard play real life music and even player made songs for other players and is still able to participate in pve and pvp content?

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False equivalence. Bard playing those songs does not effect battles. Beastmaster controlling monsters does, due to their ability to control almost everything.

FFV, there was barely anything they couldn't control.
FFX-2, they had a singular pet they controlled and everything they did was a command to the pet, they themselves did not attack at all.
FFXI, similar to FFX-2 in that you could only have one pet out (though you could get multiples I believe) and the pets did the majority of the attacking. AI had control here for the most part, and the pet could grab aggro. Due to how the pet system works right now in FFXIV, I don't believe that'll be possible.
FFTA and FFTA-2, you could control a monster for a single turn only. That was all a Beastmaster could do, control enemies.

While you could make a case for them being a melee pet class, the problem persists in that you'd have to choose which monsters they'd be able to pull out and use, and that the pet would be doing the majority of the attacking (unless they create a large amount of attacks for the Beastmaster themselves). They'd probably copy a number of Summoner's pet actions (Egi Assault I, Egi Assault II, Enkindle, etc) and put a different icon on it.

NO. More. Limited. Jobs. Why should i waste my time with a job the only goes up to lvl 50 and you can't do dungeons with it?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

False equivalence. Bard playing those songs does not effect battles. Beastmaster controlling monsters does, due to their ability to control almost everything.

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Bard has songs which affect battle and songs which don't. It's a functional job with a "limited job" gimmick. This is a false dichotomy:

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

would you rather have a faux Beastmaster or a real one?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

FFXI, similar to FFX-2 in that you could only have one pet out (though you could get multiples I believe) and the pets did the majority of the attacking. AI had control here for the most part, and the pet could grab aggro. Due to how the pet system works right now in FFXIV, I don't believe that'll be possible.

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That's a major simplification of it. First off, BST got an A+ rating in axes which means they're the best of any jobs to use that weapon. So they can do a lot of damage on their own.

BST worked by you charming a pet in the zone and have it fight besides you, or that was the plan. But due to charm not always working, people fighting monsters many levels above them and pets not getting any accuracy/attack bonuses meant that the BST pet would either not do a lot(miss or weak attacks) or the BST would have to charm a strong pet(levels above the BST) but that would screw with the party's exp gain.

Those were some of the factors that forced BST to be a solo job, so they had to adapt. Pitting a strong, charmed pet against a strong monster and work in a way that the BST didn't get hit while killing the monster.
Later jog pets were introduced which were summoned, timed pets.

What you described above with the pets doing most of the damage is much more akin to the FFXI summoner than anything(and FFXI SMN had to go around to gather avatars to actually be able to do anything meaningful).

I love the idea of Beastmaster in FFXIV, but looking back at Summoner....how many pets will we get, and will they get balanced so that they are ALL valuable Even if situational?

Titan was pretty useless and it was suppose to be a tank. Also....what's the Role and the weapon?
I'm sure another new tank would be amazing, but it's probly gonna be better as a dps.

Or a pipedream...it could be the 1st all rounder and get 1-2 pets that turn you into a healer