Party Finders, FC groups, Discord groups interested in old high-end content, or statics. They even have a new Fellowship feature that you can join for this kind of thing—I saw a few “Old Savage Minimum Item Level” Fellowships on Aether last time I browsed through the Fellowship Finder. You go about learning these fights and their mechanics the same way most others learned this content when it was relevant. The same ways anyone learns Savage content on NA/EU data centers. People don’t queue up for this content via Raid Finder or Duty Finder here: they create PFs for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanDragon
You’re new, so you probably don’t understand what it’s like. But when there’s a significantly high amount of players who cannot push out adequate damage and/or rotations in normal content, how do you expect them to fair in content that actually requires them to have a high level of skill and understanding, and requires them to meet a minimum DPS check so that they can clear enrage?Quote:
Lol why is everyone so adamantly against this? If you don't want to do them then DON'T do them.
So strange...
It’s clear you don’t understand the demands this content places on players—and how there’s a significant portion of the playerbase that will likely fail to meet these demands, frustrating those around them.
I invite you to attempt one of the current Savage raids when you hit level 80 just to experience the kinds of demands this content puts on you. You can join on a tank, healer, or DPS—the demands are relatively the same for each role. These aren’t just fights you go into and clear in a pull or two: some of them take good players multiple lockouts to even progress through them and learn all the mechanics. Weekly farms can still see several wipes from mistakes before they get a clear in.
Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?
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11-05-2019, 06:58 AMHyoMinPark
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11-05-2019, 07:01 AMLilsephIt's not strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanDragon
People are against it because doing savage in DF is a death sentence. Imagine that 24man and sometimes 8man normal content in DF are already a living nightmare with people that don't know their rotation, others doing the bare minimum and failing to obvious mechanics. No one wants to get their time wasted. Savage roulette would be that. A lot of people that underestimate the content and go full YOLO, wasting everyone's time. If we follow your advice of "don't do it if you don't like it", you'd only have a handful of people queueing up for them. It will create a MASSIVE waiting time and, in the event the queue pops... you'll be thrown in a random turn out of 13 fights. Maybe you'll get through it in 5 minutes if you get T3, or you'll spend a whole lockout wiping in T9. Who knows!
As other posters have said, you'd have better luck pugging Coil in PF. Stating it's a blind/learn party, sync'd. Try it and tell me how it goes.
Different to MSQ, time wise, where you can AFK most of the time and watch Netflix, play your favorite mobile game or whatever, Savage Raid Roulette would need you to stay focused, cooperate and learn. You'd be surprised, but the majority of the people just want to faceroll content. -
11-05-2019, 07:03 AMRicaRuin
Eden Normal is way easier than Coils. Hells, I'd even go as far as claiming that E1S is easier than synced T9.
Also, you did them synced, but with your FC. That's already a lot more coordination (and being familiar with the others' playstyle) than you will get in Duty Finder. Duty Finder usually fails at doing the Mechanics at synced T1 right, usually. -
11-05-2019, 07:04 AMMeanDragon
OK OK. You convinced me.
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11-05-2019, 07:08 AMPaladinleedsThere are linkshells dedicated to tackling this kind of content synced. It's almost certainly going to take more than one lockout to beat the duty. DF will pull randoms in, aka, you're not gonna have the same people twice in a row (you may get a couple of previous faces, but not all). You're going to want the same group of people for it. So the DFs will not pop. I believe that FFXIV Recruiter as well as The Balance Discords can help you find people to do this. But ultimately, a savage roulette is going to go badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanDragon
Now an extreme primal roulette could potentially work, but even there we have a disparage of difficulty. E.G. let's take Garuda Ex vs Ramuh Ex (to pull examples from the same expansion). Very different difficulties. People will simply fish for Garuda Ex, and will likely bail if they get something like Ramuh Ex. Same reason people bail if people get ex primals in mentor roulette (and I speak as someone who got Garuda Ex in a mentor roulette, the easiest of the ex primals, and didn't bail. And we actually got the clear in the end. Heck of a nice feeling). Ultimately, most people are going to push for the path of least resistance. So your best bet is to find like-minded people to do it, as you're all more likely to give it your best shot instead of just coasting through doing minimum effort required hoping for the reward.
If you want to see ex primal roulette and savage roulette, this mindset will need to be changed among the masses. Otherwise it's just going to cause you even more problems than it solves. Because how many people are going to queue for in-progress on those roulettes? Meaning if someone bails (and if you get a harder one they almost certainly will), you're almost certainly not going to get a refill, and thus you'd have to leave and requeue anyway. -
11-05-2019, 07:08 AMNockvryca
What everyone is trying to say is, raid roulette is the normal version of the savage fights. So it has Alexander, omega, and eden, the non savage versions. Coil only has savage, there is no normal, when coil was released there was just savage, then they released savage of second coil, but this savage is more akin to ultimate. If you were to get coil in normal raid roulette, you would not clear. Maybe a few fights, but the vast majority require coordination that you are not going to get in duty finder with a bunch of randoms that are just doing the roulette for tomes/exp.
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11-05-2019, 07:10 AMRasikko
They do that, I'll never run Normal Raids again lol. I beat the whole thing, but nah man, don't wanna go back there.
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11-05-2019, 07:11 AMDamianFatale
Just because coils would be hard in a roulette, does not mean that people shouldn't try. .-.
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11-05-2019, 07:15 AMDogempireIf I'm being generous, maybe 1% of groups would be able to clear one of the harder coils.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
Would you rather waste half an hour to an hour trying to see if your group is the 1% that would be able to clear it, or eat a half hour penalty and try for an easier raid? Because I know which one I would do. -
11-05-2019, 07:17 AMNockvryca
Sure people should try, but what you are going to have is a dead roulette. If you add coils that means you should add the savage versions of the other raids because coil is savage. This means you are going to have a roulette that no one is going to be able to clear. Same thing happens in mentor roulette when they get extreme trials, everyone leaves.
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11-05-2019, 07:19 AMMeanDragon
I guess it just took a few knocks over the head to see the light.
I understand what everyone is saying now. I experienced Garuda EX last night by queuing up in the duty finder and we wiped a few times before we got the mechanics down. And Paladinleeds saying Geruda is the EASY one puts it in a different perspective. I can see that you don't want a group of inexperienced players doing that in unknown party.
I just don't want to miss out on content. I love this game and I want to experience all of it.
The Coils themselves have some good story in them but I don't want to rush through it. -
11-05-2019, 07:21 AMWiccan026Honestly try to make a party finder, say there is bonus for first time and you want to watch cut sceneseQuote:
Originally Posted by MeanDragon
youll probably get some takers -
11-05-2019, 07:24 AMJohaandr
Eden is a joke even savage. Do not compare coils to eden.
Same goes for alex 1-4 but they were «overtuned». -
11-05-2019, 07:28 AMEsmoire
I do favour this idea but not without stipulation. Regardless of difficulty honestly I think some of them require some pacing revision and streamlining to ideally have time scale with reward to a better degree. Also since this would be the first normal raids people would encounter, maybe keeping the mechanics the same but explaining them better. And honestly? A lot of them are just boring.
I'd probably leave the savage versions as-is for people obsessed with reliving the old experiences for some reason. -
11-05-2019, 07:28 AMNockvryca
Garuda ex is one of the easy trials, but imagine getting something like shinryu, thorsen, or even hades ex. That's what people are asking for in this thread, but with raids, and they do not realize that alot of the playerbase does not do savage raids, so the roulette will be unclearable for the vast majority of the playerbase,
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11-05-2019, 07:46 AMFynlarSE has never put savage-tier stuff in a roulette. Even mentor roulette, which has all EX primals not of the current xpac, doesn't have the savage raids in there... and by extension, it doesn't have Coil. (And frankly, I don't think EX primals belong in the mentor roulette either...)Quote:
So just to be clear:
The argument against adding it to roulettes is that it's too hard?
OK.
A big discrepancy in difficulty between duties in a roulette is a bad thing. It will just cause people to bail on the tougher duties when they happen to come up. Mentor roulette has this problem with EX primals. Trials used to have this problem with stuff like Steps of Faith and Chrysalis, although that's gradually alleviated over (a long) time. Hell, alliance raid roulette has this problem too, it's just that most people get around it by intentionally dropping their item level so that they can only get the easier raids.
Petition for a Savage roulette or condemn SE for not making a story mode variant of Coil if you wish, but Coil simply does not belong with the story mode raids in normal raid roulette. -
11-05-2019, 08:03 AMForteNightshadeI have a challenge for you. Go make a Party Finder for O12S synced. When you come back several hours later lamenting on why it never filled. You'll have your answer on why Savage isn't suitable for a roulette.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanDragon
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11-05-2019, 08:08 AMNoitemsThey added echo in Orbonne probably just because of Cid. Another example of unga bunga gameplay taking the helm over an actual fun fight due to it's mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omymy
Other people have spoken up for how I feel about this info so i'll rest my case on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endeleon
You're new to the game so it's understandable. Any fight beyond the casual sphere EX,Savage,Ultimate is recommended to do some research to avoid as many issues as you can(unless you find an entire group that does blind). It's a group effort and you don't want to weigh down your team because you weren't prepared. Mentor rou (something I run far too often) is filled with new players attempting EX fights and expecting it to go the same as normal. maybe being a lil bit harder The amount of times you see sprouts with ironworks gear hopping into Ramuh EX and Titan EX are a common thing and mentors really have to make that call if they want to stay and help or cut their losses and bounce. Mind you these are synced rous similar to the idea you're requesting and even then it's still a shitshow. PF exists for that reason to get equal minded people together and heck even customize it to their needs. Rous are just a daily login routine and are meant to be a one and done for the day, nothing crazy unless you sign on the mentor rou dotted line and get something nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanDragon
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11-05-2019, 08:11 AMNestamaThe problem is that some people aren't willing to try and expect everyone else to carry them .-.Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianFatale
If people want to clear Coil (now), it's better to just solo/duo it (trio for Avatar) at level 80. Heck, take a BLU with you for T9 to kill the giant Golem (they're the only Job capable of doing this thanks to Missile and Screwtail). -
11-05-2019, 08:29 AMCrushnight
This is what you want in raid roulette:
T9:
Instant death wall (akin to falling off platform so no problem here),
Random Multi Dives where if you get no heal between 2 if picked twice = death,
Stack marker that doesn't look like a stack marker(lets not go over how many fail the consistent stack marker shall we),
Unmarked aoe that heals the boss if hit,
Tankbuster which gives a debuff that explodes when timer up dealing tb damage,
Meteor marks that cannot be dropped near each other,
3 adds that cannot get close to each other, that cannot eat more than 3 meteors but also must eat all meteors currently up between them,
Place new meteors without getting close again,
Repeat 3 adds but with more meteors to eat,
After transition make sure not mid for unannounced blade and knockback or insta die,
Kill add and use the puddles dropped to cleanse debuff given,
Unannounced(for 1st time) 5 hit tb combo,
Mark random safe zones for divebombs which change every 5 hit tb combo,
Make sure not to get hit by 2 fire tethers while also making sure lightning debuff is away and making sure you do get hit by 1 fire tether every ice you get hit by,
Spread out followed by stack after 2 puddles drop,
Make sure in correct spots for baiting divebombs or insta wipe,
All of that with other stuff happening that happens before add phase,
While under a harsh dps check sync'd down to lv50.
I'm sorry what alternate dimension did you come from where you think the average player of FFXIV could feasible handle all that and can you take me back with you because no way are the current coil iterations remotely ready to enter the raid roulette. -
11-05-2019, 08:40 AMElleia
They can make EX and Savage roulettes. They'll just be dead, and when they do pop it'll likely be 8 newer players who don't know any better who wipe for the entirety of the instance...and then never queue again.
Savage in general just doesn't lend itself to a roulette format. Generally you want to queue for the same fight over and over until you've gotten the mechanics down to clear the fight. Even in an organized group, it can take weeks or months to get through a savage tier. Imagine queuing for a roulette and getting t5; you get lucky and the group sticks together for the whole instance and you learn a good chunk. You don't clear before the timer is up. You queue again, because you want your roulette reward. This time it's t7, a completely different fight you need to learn, probably with completely different people. You probably wont clear. Hell, you could have an entire group of people who have cleared every savage fight in the game and they still might struggle to coordinate well enough to clear within the time limit.
Best thing to do is use party finder. If you want to go synched, you'll have to find a group of people willing to commit a good chunk of time to learning and clearing the fights. It's not impossible, but it will take more searching- check out fellowships and be patient in PF if this is your goal. If you just want to see the story you can pretty easily find people willing to undersize/unsynch the content and steamroll through (most) of it. -
11-05-2019, 08:54 AMNockvryca
That's exactly what will happen, a savage/extreme roulette is a waste of resources. Although probably easy to make, they will just be pointless.
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11-05-2019, 09:28 AMSatarnYou actually don't need 3 people for Avatar - you could duo it back in SB, skipping most stuff(solo was also possible, but it required to actually do mechanics and get lucky with server ticks), now it should be easily doable solo due to damage increase. Even Nael can be soloed with good gear right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestama
So yeah, if you want to clear Coils you could just get to 80 and do it all alone with no one there to rush while you're watching cutscenes. Hell, it'll actually be more story-accurate, since it's supposed to be all secretive and you can take your sweet time walking around all the cool set pieces. -
11-05-2019, 09:55 AMHavenchild
As someone who has raided all tiers, I disagree with people who say Coil is much more difficult.
I get the worry of clear rates going down and vote abandon and to some extent they're is truth to that argument but I think the player base overall has improved since then and can properly coordinate.
If you consider Eden normal, O12 normal, that much easy (pretty sure a lot of people still get clipped or die in O12N) I really don't know. People who are that scared of coil, honestly haven't did it synced in a very long time. The fights are laughable SYNCED + all the nerfs they got after intial release. You can still push phases and the bosses die before any major mechanics come into play, thanks to massive overgearing.
The only fights I can say represent something of a challenge still, are T9, T12 and T13 and the coordination required is nothing that can't be explained by even one vet.
Everything else is pretty normal by today's standards, nothing the average player on DF can't accomplish ESPECIALLY since most of the mechanics back then, have introduced themselves one way or another in future NORMAL fights. Y'all need to stop with the argument, "this is too difficult". Like it's not y'all, seriously. -
11-05-2019, 10:09 AMNestamaOh you can? Only really tried to solo it and well... you can guess how well that went (Ballistic Missile instant death when failed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
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11-05-2019, 10:09 AMHyoMinParkI have to disagree. Considering Orbonne Monastery is the first 24-man to ever be blessed with automatic 10% Echo, I have to disagree. Coordination is not that great even in normal mode raids—I doubt it would be better in the Coils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
But that’s the point: they’re easy, yet people still fail mechanics and die. I ran o12n for fun during 4.4~4.5, and the number of people I’d see die to simple things was astonishing. Now imagine them trying to do Coil mechanics. I don’t have that much faith that it would go over as smoothly as you think it would.Quote:
If you consider Eden normal, O12 normal, that much easy (pretty sure a lot of people still get clipped or die in O12N) I really don't know.
No, they probably appreciate that coordination in DF is fairly abysmal nine times out of ten for fights that require a little bit of thought to them.Quote:
People who are that scared of coil, honestly haven't did it synced in a very long time. The fights are laughable SYNCED + all the nerfs they got after intial release. You can still push phases and the bosses die before any major mechanics come into play, thanks to massive overgearing.
I’ve been in EX primals in Mentor Roulette where veterans are explaining mechanics to players that haven’t been in them before, but the players still mess them up. I once spent 40 minutes in Shiva EX trying to explain to the new tanks that they needed to share the cleave she does in Sword phase. They died for 40 minutes straight because they never got it.Quote:
The only fights I can say represent something of a challenge still, are T9, T12 and T13 and the coordination required is nothing that can't be explained by even one vet.
You have more faith in DF than I do. I don’t think having the Coils—or any Savage-tier content—in DF would go half as smooth as you’re assuring it will.Quote:
Everything else is pretty normal by today's standards, nothing the average player on DF can't accomplish ESPECIALLY since most of the mechanics back then, have introduced themselves one way or another in future NORMAL fights. Y'all need to stop with the argument, "this is too difficult". Like it's not y'all, seriously.
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11-05-2019, 10:28 AMHasrat
It's one thing to explain the coordination needed. By all rights, the mechanics should be simple enough to grasp (well, maybe not all, even I probably don't clearly know T12 and maybe others).
But the execution of that coordination is another matter. It's ridiculously simple to tell a group "Green meteors will go here, if you get a green meteor marker, stand here until it drops. Red meteors around the edge, at these points, DO NOT let any fall too close. Don't rush kill golems, they need to eat rocks first. Two rocks, and kill. More than that is a wipe. Don't let them get close, or it's a wipe."
Ok, that actually turned out to be a fair bit, but, still, I view that as fairly straightforward, know where to drop rocks. Hell, you can probably survive/heal through explosions even if they don't all get eaten at this point (unsynced).
But, it's still surprisingly difficult to get through that phase. Or was, last time I kept an eye out for it.
Point is, no, I don't think "raid roulette is supposed to be difficult." Just the opposite, really. Roulettes are there to fill queues and get players through content. The difficult stuff is the stuff that doesn't have a roulette. And unfortunately, some of Coils is better left out of roulette. -
11-05-2019, 10:35 AMHavenchildAll I can honestly say, is that I have run FC members through these synced as recent as pre 5.0 and can confirm, these fights are very close to glorifed striking dummies with at max maybe seeing 1 or 2 mechanics that can actually cause a wipe for outright failing, that can't be healed through.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
T1-> Literally no mechanics or pulling boss away needed, just burn
T2-> Burn nodes, Allagan Rot gets like 1 or 2 passes IF it even comes out, Burn boss
T4, Just AoE everything, spider feed to dreadnaught doesnt matter. Didnt matter at ilvl 90 either.
T5, literally a burn from 100% to divebombs, then far too much damage to even consider the snakes a mechanic.
T6-> Striking dummy, have to bait once maybe twice, kill bee
T7, Renaulds don't always one shot, petrify isnt instant death upon hit, Striking dummy + adds
T8, striking dummy, just need to do missles correctly.
T9 -> Truly the only fight that requires some coordination, for meteor drops, golem separation and chain pickup, pretty sure you can skip divebombs and fire ice mechanics are generally all in
T10-> striking dummy + adds, may get a charge +heat lightning
T11-> striking dummy + omega larboard starboard + tether groups
T12, striking dummy, 2- 3 birds ish, just place them apart, add phase you can aoe and still do fine. Fountain soaks, blue flame grabbed by range
T13, is a striking dummy with 2 to 3 mechanics, earth shaker baits/tornado baits, towers, and puddle baits.
Do them synced before questioning how hard these fights are to actually do. The overgearing + echo + nerfs makes them fairly doable by today's standards. Things like Titan and Eden Prime on average hit far harder and consistently. -
11-05-2019, 10:43 AMNestamaAnd that's why you didn't have issues. You did it with your FC who most likely listened to your advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Some/most DF people don't realise chat exists... or that they're playing an MMO. Heck, some DF people don't even know how to play their Job at the bear minimum (BLM only casting Blizzard III and Fire III for example). -
11-05-2019, 10:47 AMHyoMinParkRunning them with a pre-made that knows to listen to mechanical explanations and callouts would certainly make them trivial. But we aren’t talking about running these with pre-mades: we’re talking about adding them to a Duty Finder roulette with random players of varying skill levels, and varying levels of listening to and actually following advice and explanations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Do these fights with randoms sync’d before questioning how hard these fights would be in a DF Roulette setting. As you said, people still die to easy things in normal modes. You really think synced Coils (even with overgearing + Echo + nerfs) would be much different? -
11-05-2019, 10:49 AMNockvryca
You are expecting alot from completely random df, some of these people are full level 80 in like ilvl 450 and still doing damage as if we are in HW.
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11-05-2019, 10:56 AMHasrat
While I don't have the experience to argue, I would still remain skeptical, due to how much you seem to gloss over important mechanics. "T5, literally a burn from 100% to divebombs..." Ok, and how often will you see uncoordinated groups get wrecked by divebombs? Personally, in my synced experience, it wasn't even the divebombs that were the major problem (though it was a struggle), it was the Twister phase.
"T8... just need to do missiles correctly," as if that can be expected from every pug.
Especially strange how much you gloss over T11. You can bet that nearly every group is going to have some significant insta-death by standing in the center when the barrier pops. And even in my unsynced experience, I've seen it ridiculously difficult for groups to understand/follow the idea of keeping adds apart while moving.
Idk, you say you've got experience that I can't refute, but, I still think you're overestimating the skills/competency of the random groups for a lot of the more punishing mechanics. -
11-05-2019, 10:57 AMNoitemsImagine if you thought this and tried to go to heaven but god said; "Your coming was foretold, servant of Ivalice. Or perhaps you serve another. I am Count Cidolfus Orlandeau. Your journey ends here."Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
They added the echo to Orbonne and ONLY Orbonne because people can't coordinate. Mustadio is a unga bunga at heart, and so can Ultima for 70% of the fight. However Agrias and yer boy Sean Connery require actual teamwork. This is in my honest to goodness opinion is why we need more alliance raid bosses that actually make better use of all three alliances or incorporate all three into something more meaningful. Rabanastre was PERFECT for this back when it came out since three of the fights required all three alliances to handle an add/do a mech/flip a switch. Lighthouse cut it down to just 1 boss and a trash mob and Orbonne brought it back up to 2 and a trash mob. The Nier raid is getting there with two of the fights requiring the three alliances to work together, and slaps them on the wrist if they wipe. If people don't get this stuff beat into their head we wind up with situations like the current Orbonne where we need to get a buff to cure incompetency.
Long tangent I know but these are the types of people you're dealing with in a DF setting. We can give people a chance, but if all of coils was thrown into raid you would be regretting that decision very quickly as it would present itself on the majority of days as more and more people can run it due to the lower il. -
11-05-2019, 12:31 PMHavenchild
It's a damn shame how many assumptions there are here. We didn't HAVE any discussion about the fights in my FC because people wanted to go blind in the content.
The fact of the matter is you DO NOT need some superior knowledge to execute these fights, not even superior damage. I am convinced none of you against this idea have actually went in there recently. You don't need any unsurmountable level of damage or execution to beat these fights as they have LARGELY been reduced to damn near striking dummies. You BARELY see mechanics and the ones you DO see are in no way overly difficult compared to current normal raids.
This is pure fear mongering at it's best. The fights don't require explanation as a whole to win. Only specific one hit mechanics that still exist do, at best.
The arguement that DF is bad, when the fact of the matter is, people go into DF currently with those same bads and wipe to things and down fights regardless makes the whole counterargument pointless.
Fear mongering, from people who actually only in essence, remember the context of coil back then in terms of difficulty, but have not actually tried it synced recently. I invite every single person in denial to actually TRY the coil content syncced and honestly compare them to the current Eden normal or 012N raids. I guarantee you anyone with an honest assessment of the content would say these current raids are on average more punishing.
Coil fights are faceroll now post all the buffs and nerfs. This is absolutely DF worthy. -
11-05-2019, 12:44 PMNestama
Assumptions are made because we've all experienced the one or more person who outright refuses to learn (and this one person alone can be responsible for a wipe). There's a reason why the Tales from Duty Finder thread has over 1000 pages (and most of the posts are from negative experiences). It sucks to say this, but most players in DF do not have raid awareness (example: Shinryu back when Stormblood came out) and most of them are looking for a quick and easy clear.
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11-05-2019, 12:58 PMHavenchildT5 -> Twister, barely shows up tbh. You usually go from 100% -> divebombs almost always and by the time twin comes back, usually his HP is so low, the next chain pops and its literally done soon after. You may see twister if your DPS is THAT atrocious and even then it is not a one shot iirc. Hell if it was the ONLY mechanic you had to watch out for, that still PALES in comparison to everything else that is in current normal raids that you have to consistently do BACK TO BACK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasrat
T8 -> Missiles, literally can assign ranged to handle, mines are a joke (almost everyone can pop 2 without a heal in between). If people can do towers in Sephirot Normal, they can do missiles. It's literally the same mechanic just colored differently.
T11-> Keep adds away from each other is hard? How do people do it then in Thordan, Crown of the Immaculate Normal, The Final Steps of Faith, Sophia Normal. People get one shoted by Cauterize from Midgardsomr, two shoted by M/F in O12N and one shotted by Titan Knockbacks or Leviathan floor destruction for bad positioning ALL the time.
The fact I'm trying to point out which is the major flaw of this counter argument is that EQUALLY PUNISHING mechanics or more consistently punishing mechanics exist in current normal raids ALREADY. No one in this entire thread has tried to refute that point and quite literally can not. -
11-05-2019, 12:59 PMHyoMinParkYou’re also doing some heavy assuming yourself, sweetheart: that DF will be able to handle Coils. At least those of us who have so little faith have experience in Duty Finder where players struggle to even grasp the simplest of mechanics—like stack markers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
And people tend to die to the mechanics as well. Again: stack markers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
I mean, I just got out of a run of Copied Factory where the tanks stacked the adds during Engles and we wiped. So yeah, it is pretty hard to separate the adds, apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
I do want to note that I find it interesting you’re proposing that Coil is easy now and that DF could do them... but then in the same breath you bring up how people die to easy mechanics in easier content. You’re kind of defeating your point with that statement.
People still die to the first Tidal Wave even in ShB (read: players that aren’t even new to the instance, either). So things haven’t changed all that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestama
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11-05-2019, 01:14 PMHavenchildYou are 100% correct and further prove my point. I have DF'd all of the current fights. I have PF'd all fights. I can absolutely say the crop of players you'll run into on DF or PF are not so different in terms of skill variance. I've been to PF Duty Completes with absolute CRAP players and you have to disband and reform. Does that suddenly mean we should exclude current normal raids from PF? No that doesn't make sense. In DF, you could wipe in things like THE BURN and people disband. THEY would continue to do the same regardless if they want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
DF can absolutely handle coils because the fights are NOT as punishing as when they were originally out. Echo, Nerfs and ilvl overgearing have brought these fights down to damn near face rolls. There's no need to SILENCE ADS. There is NO NEED to separate Caduceus. THERE IS NO NEED to execute every single mechanic perfectly, only particular ones AT BEST that require one person, usually to do.
The playerbase as a whole, with macros, with guide videos, with simplifying of classes has enough of a cushion that even with complete blindness to any of the fights, can easily define the wipe mechanic, and execute afterwards as a whole. We do it EVERY Normal raid implementation. Again, your opinion is pure fear-mongering. I invite you to go into DF on any of these fights with a random group maybe yourself being the only knowledgeable person in the room, which is fairly consistent with week one normal raids currently. You will absolutely down every single fight.
If your counter-argument then becomes "but a group of randoms who have never did the content would struggle, I invite you to look at DAY 1 clears of normal content on every single data center with wipe/one shot mechanics from CURRENT normal level content. This is not an excuse. The fact of the matter is, I am not over simplifying these fights. Protesters in this thread are over complicating. -
11-05-2019, 01:22 PMFynlar
Twisters in T5 are absolutely a one shot if you mess it up. You don't even see any damage done; you just get flung into the air and come back down as a corpse.
T5 in general was kind of awful. It's like... you touch the wall, you die. You touch the twister, you die. You touch the bird, you die. Too far to the right, you die. Too far to the left, you die. You die, you die, you die, you die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die...
Coil was a bit too heavy on the one-shot mechanics for my liking, but T5 was notoriously bad about it.
For T9 I'd consider it a godsend by itself if you could get a DF group to not form any invinci-golems. -
11-05-2019, 01:30 PMMariaArvanaIt's ironic you're making as many assumptions as the rest of the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Your major fallacy is assuming that the average DF random will be anywhere near as skilled, willing to learn, or be open to communication as your FC mates are. As time immemorial has shown in Mentor Roulette extremes, 24 mans, and people lying & joining prog parties they haven't the foggiest idea on in the hopes of getting carried, there is a substantial amount of the playerbase that simply doesn't have the desire, drive or skill to be able to compete in coil, even with all its nerfs and would be an active hindrance or flat-out make several coil fights impossible to clear(depending on role & fight) if you got one in your party. That's not even getting into the part of the playerbase that still doesn't have the foggiest idea what a stack marker means and bungles it. Or that '3 per stack' & 'spread these meteors out' on Cid are hard concepts to grasp.
Lets not even get into dps players who manage to eek out dps that would have been acceptable an expansion ago, let alone this expansion.
As someone who's done them synced in 5.0, The hard ones are still miles above Eden Normal. A single good healer + tank combo can carry you super hard through pretty much any issue you encounter in Eden Normal (source: the first time I ever went through Eden Normal with my bf & a healer friend hard carrying for 20 minutes on our Levi run with 5/8 basically perma dead.), whereas a misplaced Golem, a badly placed divebomb(s), a badly charged tower, a bad tether movement, bad Bennu placement, and a bad Tempest wing tether pickup can instantly end your run in coils. Heck, there's a vid of a RDM + a healer duoing Titan for 40minutes out there to show just how un-punishing Eden Normal is, something completely impossible at synced level in the harder coil fights.
There is fearmongering, but much of it is based on the much, much, continuous, weekly evidence that showcases just how disastrous Coils would be when fights that are far easier than them (24mans, Raid normal modes, etc.) are spaghetti fests far more often than they should be. Even fights that are super simple on paper (Odin, as he basically boils down to dodge aoes for 9 minutes) Somehow have ended in vote abandon every time in the few times I've gotten it in Mentor Roulette, despite it not having a single complex mechanic in the entirety of its duration.
Honestly, the only thing I have to say is this: Orbonne Monastery, a 24 man with mechanics easier than half the mechanics you encounter in the harder coil fights, had to receive echo because the playerbase was that terrible at it to the point dodging getting it at all, or leaving the instant you loaded in became the less painful alternative to actually doing it half the time.