Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

and seeing how Hades Ex fight is, the fight is ffing hell for Blms.., but easy for Smn..

Blm should remain the overall top Dps, when executed well

I belive BLM still have higher damage than SMN the gao is smaller though, which is not a bad things... the problem is RDM lookcs like gonna fall behind as a caster dps... HOWEVER we should wait and see how all the dps number once it get parsed

(And complaining about im too strong is kinda new though... )

While the model for optimal SMN rotation shows that it's doing too much it's better to wait for some real statistical data of a large sample of SMN players and see how it evolves for some time. The optimal rotation only tell us how high SMN can get (even if it's too high right now) but if the average SMN damage for a large sample of players stays on suitable numbers there's no need for tuning.

We also don't know what are the numbers the devs are expecting out SMN right now. In this sense I think it is still premature to ask for tuning the skills but it sure needs to be observed for some time.

That's my opinion on SMN right now.

While generally I agree with the urgency of collecting observed data (the irony being talking about such on the OFs), I think there are people that are underestimating the sheer increase to summoner floor damage from the pet and dot changes alone from what are effectively passive sources. The bulk, in the context and in relation to the general contributions of other jobs is important to be aware of.

It's not just a matter of optimal rotations and the numbers from that.

I think this is intended, smn should do less dps than blm but more than rdm. Unless you implying that smner now does more damage than blm which I don't believe to be the case.

Thanks

I think summoner mobility is very strong,
but the dps is fine
500 dps more than the red mage if they remove ifrit 0.8 we will do less than redmage ,
I think it's too early to say broken .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KroLeXz

I think this is intended, smn should do less dps than blm but more than rdm. Unless you implying that smner now does more damage than blm which I don't believe to be the case.

Thanks

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This (and variations of the url be it encounter or data set) will be an important link to follow since people keep insisting on wanting to look at the data and if that's to be the case, then people must look at the global scope. In terms of observed metrics, it is early days, currently, this isn't "conclusive" in the manner people want.

People keep assuming I'm saying to nerf SMN, or that SMN is >= BLM. While the comparison vs BLM is important in the context of raise caster with RDPS utility vs "selfish" caster sans raise, I'm saying the more important context is SMN with what follows underneath given the gains we've been given and that global numbers need to be looked at and tuned, which can and does include making sure the bottom half of jobs are not too low.

Furthermore, while it could be argued SMN should have a PDPS lead over RDM, the gap should not be a gulf either given the similarities of roles. Remember that prior to this patch, all Ranged and RDM were very comparable with SMN in damage contributions.

For what it's worth, I am not saying to revert the pet scaling changes. It's just they are the biggest culprit of the total damage increases, followed by DoTs then the rest.

The total package in relation to others is what's of concern. Not whether pets are doing enough % of/too much total damage.

Well then... looking at those numbers, have fun in ultimate. Not sitting through stormblood 2.0. About equal damage with better mobility and raise utility, amazing. The all around better black mage is back, here to have every party shoehorn you into playing it once more >.>

Best hope you went for the painful low sps build on your blm so it can become smn gear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

This (and variations of the url be it encounter or data set) will be an important link to follow since people keep insisting on wanting to look at the data and if that's to be the case, then people must look at the global scope. In terms of observed metrics, it is early days, currently, this isn't "conclusive" in the manner people want.

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Man I really hope this is just a case of sample size (because that is a very low amount of numbers). The ranged DPS and Bard in particular being that low is not a good thing, especially after Yoshi-P let Bard players know they couldn't have utility like Dancers or what they had back in SB or they would have to be at Dancer's level of DPS. Yet here we are and Bard is even lower then Dancer. Will have to watch that closely but it's concerning. Nerfing the DOTs on Bard may have been going to far, as that is a baseline damage they knocked down on a class that was only brought up by small raid buffs and abilities that get used once per minute.

It's mechanically un-fun, buffing it does not change my enjoyment of it.

I appreciate them trying to help the job but you have to admit, it's a freaking mess.

so Smn doesnt need a nerf (its on par with Mnk now, like it should be)

its Blm that needs a buff xD (to be on par with new Sam)

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...049&metric=dps

Smn doing good atm

Look at those samurai go!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...049&metric=dps

Smn doing good atm

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especially in heavy movement fights...

well, Smn should shine a bit
..., won't be suprised if Alexander Ultimate is also "very movement heavy" and Smn might shine again..

like early 4.x Smn, OP again..; trying to get players away from overused Rdm in 4.x over to Smn.., here in 5.x, trying to get players away from Blm (overused) to Smn

but instead of nerfing Smn, a slight buff for others?

(ok, its still early..., but Smn does seem strong)

Okay this is overdone lmao SMN buffed too much ... my main character is SMN main so im happy but still too much...

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2

E4S

Smn shines again...

Its actually not as big a buff as you're making it out to be. Egi assaults are only doing a bit more damage than Ruin 3, which you would have used before in order to pop off your assaults during the GCD, only now you don't have those OGCD's to burn so you're losing out on a bit of damage there. The pure damage gains are coming from the pure potency buffs that don't have caveat's attached to them, like Enkindle, basic attacks for Ifrit and Titan, Ruin 4, TRIDISASTER BEING GIVEN 300 POTENCY, and both DoT's. Then again, we did lose Ruination so...yeah.

Don't get me wrong, summoners have definitely been buffed, just not to world ending proportions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2

E4S

Smn shines again...

---

...annnddddd incoming nerfs next patch, gotta be. That or we'll see the big two pure DPS get some decent sized potency buffs to make up for this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Its actually not as big a buff as you're making it out to be. Egi assaults are only doing a bit more damage than Ruin 3, which you would have used before in order to pop off your assaults during the GCD, only now you don't have those OGCD's to burn so you're losing out on a bit of damage there. The pure damage gains are coming from the pure potency buffs that don't have caveat's attached to them, like Enkindle, basic attacks for Ifrit and Titan, Ruin 4, TRIDISASTER BEING GIVEN 300 POTENCY, and both DoT's. Then again, we did lose Ruination so...yeah.

Don't get me wrong, summoners have definitely been buffed, just not to world ending proportions.

---

There's also the gains from fewer Ruin 2s being used, the better DoT cycle alignment, the better Bahamut window against raid synergy.

It's not about making the changes out to be anything. It's how the numbers are. To claim it's not as big a buff as the numbers dictate, especially given the listed "pure damage gains" (which when combined, add up to a considerable amount), is not being aware of the actual impacts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

This (and variations of the url be it encounter or data set) will be an important link to follow since people keep insisting on wanting to look at the data and if that's to be the case, then people must look at the global scope. In terms of observed metrics, it is early days, currently, this isn't "conclusive" in the manner people want.

---

From this current chart the only thing I get is that BLM, BRD and NIN are the ones sitting in odd spots. SMN on par with MNK is pretty acceptable considering their contributions and how MNK is doing right now. But if SMN blow up in these charts in the next couple of weeks then it will definitely need adjustments.

But I understand what you're saying about the relative ease with you can get high numbers on SMN right now. If anything the DOTs potency increase was not necessary. It came as a surprise when I first read the patch notes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

From this current chart the only thing I get is that BLM, BRD and NIN are the ones sitting in odd spots. SMN on par with MNK is pretty acceptable considering their contributions and how MNK is doing right now. But if SMN blow up in these charts in the next couple of weeks then it will definitely need adjustments.

But I understand what you're saying about the relative ease with you can get high numbers on SMN right now. If anything the DOTs potency increase was not necessary. It came as a surprise when I first read the patch notes.

---

Monk is also not doing very well with the anatman nerf, still has 2 useless skills laying there. Dragoon, smn, blm and samurai all do more damage then monk with 99% . I like monk but why would you play monk when you can play dragoon which is cooler and has a much better rotation and character job design? Their way of solving problems is giving us damage, it's very frustrating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

There's also the gains from fewer Ruin 2s being used, the better DoT cycle alignment, the better Bahamut window against raid synergy.

It's not about making the changes out to be anything. It's how the numbers are. To claim it's not as big a buff as the numbers dictate, especially given the listed "pure damage gains" (which when combined, add up to a considerable amount), is not being aware of the actual impacts.

---

Smn is blowing off the charts in most fights (when looking at high %, what players aim at)

Hades Ex:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...049&metric=dps

E4S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2

E3S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2

E1S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2
....

only in E2S, are Sam and Blm ahead of Smn.., otherwise Smn is Top

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Smn is blowing off the charts in most fights (when looking at high %, what players aim at)

Only in E2S, are Sam and Blm ahead of Smn.., otherwise Smn is Top.

---

Looks like we've gone from tiers of imbalance (wherein jobs are tightly balanced but badly offset from the other tier) to a fairly even job-by-job progression of imbalance... But, I guess that's progress? Sort of?

Will have to see over the next week or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Smn is blowing off the charts in most fights (when looking at high %, what players aim at)

Hades Ex:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...049&metric=dps

E4S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2

E3S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2

E1S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=99&bracket=2
....

only in E2S, are Sam and Blm ahead of Smn.., otherwise Smn is Top

---

How significant can the above sample sizes be? I don’t think they’re adequate enough, and I think it’s disingenuous to use them as hard evidence of where the DPS currently sit.

At this time of looking at them, the only DPS job that has more than 20 uploads on Leviathan is DRG. All other DPS are sitting at ~10 uploads. For Titan, DRG is still the only DPS to break 20 uploads, with most others in the mid-teens. If you look at the statistics for Hades EX, the only jobs listed on there are DRG, NIN, DNC, RDM, MNK, and SAM — with most only having 1 upload. That’s not nearly enough data to make any conclusions.

I’d like to see more uploads to normalize the averages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

How significant can the above sample sizes be? I don’t think they’re adequate enough, and I think it’s disingenuous to use them as hard evidence of where the DPS currently sit.

At this time of looking at them, the only DPS job that has more than 20 uploads on Leviathan is DRG. All other DPS are sitting at ~10 uploads. For Titan, DRG is still the only DPS to break 20 uploads, with most others in the mid-teens. If you look at the statistics for Hades EX, the only jobs listed on there are DRG, NIN, DNC, RDM, MNK, and SAM — with most only having 1 upload. That’s not nearly enough data to make any conclusions.

I’d like to see more uploads to normalize the averages.

---

Very important. Sample size is everything.

looking at the Hades Ex link from before, there are enouhb uploads from all classes..

Seems as if Smn is becoming the new Blm (4.x allover again..)

Smn should be in the spot light too once in a while..., and will for sure shine during Alexandra Ultimate, if this trend remains..

but it has too much utility & mobility, to hold that top spot for long...

Smn has nomore struggle at all, in very heavy movement fights (and hits hard and has utility / Rez), while Blm still struggles in very heavy movement fights, with zero utility

.. Smn will probably get slight nerf (or Blm slight buff) a patch or two later.., latest when enough casters move back to Smn (from Blm, which wss being overused during the last few patches)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

looking at the Hades Ex link from before, there are enouhb uploads from all classes..

Seems as if Smn is becoming the new Blm (4.x allover again..)

Smn should be in the spot light too once in a while..., and will for sure shine during Alexandra Ultimate, if this trend remains..

but it has too much utility & mobility, to hold that top spot for long...

Smn has nomore struggle at all, in very heavy movement fights (and hits hard and has utility / Rez), while Blm still struggles in very heavy movement fights, with zero utility

.. Smn will probably get slight nerf (or Blm slight buff) a patch or two later.., latest when enough casters move back to Smn (from Blm, which wss being overused during the last few patches)

---

when looking at Hades, ment this Link


https://www.fflogs.com/zone/rankings...049&metric=dps

ofc its "top" dps, but it shows what player strive for and what class will be defined as "Top" dps

(and what dps class will probably have meta spot, with Rdps).., instead of some double Blm, now we might get some double Smn comps?

havent seen that since 4.x.. (Smn seems like, it might become the new Blm this patch)

ignore the top Mnk there, he had 2 dancers, buffing his buffs xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

ignore the top Mnk there, he had 2 dancers, buffing his buffs xD

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I linked to the statistics page on Hades EX where these SMN and MNK logs are clearly not showing up. Going off of this page, there’s not nearly enough data to start making conclusions.

As for rDPS, it doesn’t count Standard Finish towards the MNK. That damage goes to the DNCs’ rDPS. MNK rDPS is their personal damage + contribution via Brotherhood to the party - buffs from other party members. aDPS also does not include single target pads like Standard Finish, AST cards, or Dragon Sight. So, saying to ignore that MNK because of a double DNC pad is irrelevant in terms of the values displayed in that list.

your list doesnt show much yet (missing class logs and Sam is way higher in reality than displayed there.., just less skilled dunno how to use the new Sam rotation yet / fully)

my list just shows how Smn is dominating the top dps in Hades Ex atm.., which Smn probably shouldnt dominate (neither should Mnk)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

your list doesnt show much yet (missing class logs and Sam is way higher in reality than displayed there.., just less skilled dunno how to use the new Sam rotation yet / fully)

my list just shows how Smn is dominating the top dps in Hades Ex atm.., which Smn probably shouldnt dominate (neither should Mnk)

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You're not reading people's responses. What you're linking isn't being properly calculated. Bard, for example, is supposedly averaging 13,150 rdps despite the highest ranked parse being 13,100. That's statistically impossible.

The statistics category is ignoring the vast majority of reports—something which is currently being worked on. Therefore, none of this is remotely accurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

your list doesnt show much yet (missing class logs and Sam is way higher in reality than displayed there.., just less skilled dunno how to use the new Sam rotation yet / fully)

my list just shows how Smn is dominating the top dps in Hades Ex atm.., which Smn probably shouldnt dominate (neither should Mnk)

---

I still think that your assessment of these statistics is incorrect. You posted statistics pages for both E3S and E4S displaying a dozen or more parses only for each DPS job in the game (sans DRG, which was the only job above 20 uploads in each page), and attempted to use it to back up your argument that this is where SMN currently stands as opposed to the other DPS jobs. The sample size is not large enough for you to make a conclusion like that, and it’s disingenuous for you to attempt to present your argument with this data.

As for your Hades EX data, I think there’s some issues going on, because none of those logs are appearing on the statistics page and that’s a little odd to me. I know that several logs were blacklisted when uploaded yesterday due to FFLogs failing to calculate raid buffs correctly (e.g., Trick Attack was being calculated at 10% for 15 seconds as opposed to 5% for 15 seconds), and BRD’s Battle Voice was display rDPS contribution values of sub-100 rDPS). Are you certain that the list you’ve posted here doesn’t include some of these logs that were blacklisted by the site for containing incorrect data assessments?

I did mention the current sampling would not be sufficient to be conclusive to the degree that would be preferable. In that regard, all that matters is playing the waiting game for more to be uploaded when it comes to SMN. But that's not to say that what's visibly manifesting early should be outright discarded. Yes, the dust needs to settle to see things more clearly. But people should not be surprised should things not change as much.

That all said, something I have always maintained and always will: the website is not gospel. It can and will be wrong, for as long as attribution has to be estimated for DoTs and the impact of synergy. Players need to be especially mindful of the context of the data and ensure the numbers are sane. At least in the case of SMN, when I did my weeklies and looked closer, things weren't as off as say, the current website scenario with ranged.

Holy sambas the memes aren't wrong when they said that summoners are always complaining are they? Even when they are at the top of the food chain right now.

Can someone explain to me why Summoner shouldn't be Top DPS in this game ? Do they give group buff like ninja ?

Summoner provides a group damage buff in the form of 5% Devotion, yes, in addition to raise. It was more of a selfish job prior to Stormblood, but still had Resurrection and super virus then, while Stormblood Summoner also provided extra party damage through Contagion and Radiant Shield on top of 2% dmg 5% healing/mitigation Devotion. We don't talk about the joke that was 4.0 Devotion.

All jobs should be competitive enough without universal parity in end results, but the global balance shouldn't be such that particular jobs are chosen to be excluded from groups because of the sheer gaps that exist. There will always be a "meta" and it can be argued all comps can clear, but that is a false equivalency which doesn't account for the differing severity. The gaps also do not limit themselves only to damage potential, but even binary cases of having one ability vs not at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by plamya

Holy sambas the memes aren't wrong when they said that summoners are always complaining are they? Even when they are at the top of the food chain right now.

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You may call it complaining when ultimately this is caring about the global state of the game. Even if it means speaking out about the job I enjoy and care about most.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ahrijlaken

Can someone explain to me why Summoner shouldn't be Top DPS in this game ? Do they give group buff like ninja ?

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Why shouldn't the more mobile black mage with raise in their kit as well as aetherpact to boost group dps do more damage than jobs dedicated solely to personal damage with zero unique group utility you ask?
https://www.chickensmoothie.com/oeka...rev=1531695788

I would personally consider the apparent generous tuning of smn to be fair reparations for the absolute butchering of the job's gameplay and skill ceiling from Stormblood. And I say 'apparent' because many 3rd party tools are still recovering from the transition to 5.1.

Consider the fact that without aetherflow to allow for flexibility in trance activations, there is very little opportunistic play left in the toolkit. For the most part, you are just forced to use all your trances on cooldown over and over and just hope the parts of the fight they overlap are favourable to them. When a black mage is allowed to do things like bank xenoglossy in downtime and use it judiciously when the boss returns, their output increases relative to their full uptime tuning. In contrast, when a summoner is forced to use their trances inefficiently due to poor overlap with fight mechanics, their dps 'in practice' will fall below their dps in theory.

In the future, more fights may come that clash particularly badly with default trance timings. There are many examples in current fights already, and ultimate with its sheer mechanic density is sure to provide more examples. It's not a bad thing to give the job an extra bump to build in a small buffer, so that the job's intended output is preserved even in those situations. If agency was still in the hands of the player, I would be confident that summoners would have the ability to punch above their weight no matter their tuning. Alas, not all jobs are as well designed as black mage, so in lieu of well designed rotations I'm happy to accept some artificial propping up - it achieves the same result in the end.

I gotta say though, summoner players are truly noble, have you ever heard of someone calling for nerfs to their own job? I certainly didn't see any black mages sticking up for their fellow casters when summoners and red mages were down. Just a lot of gloating over their guaranteed raid spot. Now that the tables are turned they are back to whining that they might have to play a different job for progression - you know, the thing you do for maybe 2 or 3 weeks out of the entire year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I would personally consider the apparent generous tuning of smn to be fair reparations for the absolute butchering of the job's gameplay and skill ceiling from Stormblood. And I say 'apparent' because many 3rd party tools are still recovering from the transition to 5.1.

Consider the fact that without aetherflow to allow for flexibility in trance activations, there is very little opportunistic play left in the toolkit. For the most part, you are just forced to use all your trances on cooldown over and over and just hope the parts of the fight they overlap are favourable to them. When a black mage is allowed to do things like bank xenoglossy in downtime and use it judiciously when the boss returns, their output increases relative to their full uptime tuning. In contrast, when a summoner is forced to use their trances inefficiently due to poor overlap with fight mechanics, their dps 'in practice' will fall below their dps in theory.

In the future, more fights may come that clash particularly badly with default trance timings. There are many examples in current fights already, and ultimate with its sheer mechanic density is sure to provide more examples. It's not a bad thing to give the job an extra bump to build in a small buffer, so that the job's intended output is preserved even in those situations.

I gotta say, summoner players are truly noble though, have you ever heard of someone calling for nerfs to their own job? I certainly didn't see any black mages sticking up for their fellow casters when summoners and red mages were down. Just a lot of gloating over their guaranteed raid spot. Now that the tables are turned they are back to whining that they might have to play a different job for progression - you know, the thing you do for maybe 2 or 3 weeks out of the entire year.

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I don't believe Nemekh is every summoner in this game. Because I vastly remember every other smn having zero issues at all with their standings over other casters during ucob and uwu, or the majority of the last expansion in general. 'Nobel' lol... that's a joke

Also reparations? If we wanted to call for reparations, their position for the first tier of eden was for being gods prior.

Sit down and try to think before speaking.