New Healer Request Next Expansion

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Originally Posted by Jehrek

Am I the only one who foresees that if we get a chemist, the Mix ability will be a reskin of the AST Seals/Divination?

You have 6 ingredients in your bag, action draws one out. You want it, action puts it in the pot; you don't like it, action redraws a new ingredient. Once you get three ingredients in the pot, Mix and apply.

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They should have added a chemist with a chemistry themed divination as a new healer this expansion. Then they could have left AST alone. (Or, you know, given it some little fixes without altering its core gameplay).

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

They should have added a chemist with a chemistry themed divination as a new healer this expansion. Then they could have left AST alone. (Or, you know, given it some little fixes without altering its core gameplay).

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Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like if Astrologian also had some kind of ‘competition’ as the ‘support oriented healer’ they’d have been able to play around more with how the card effects worked in the old system. I mean, their thinking currently seems to be that Astrologian can’t have the same card effects as before because then it becomes a ‘must have’?

But am I right in thinking this would be less of an issue if there was an Astrologian ‘competitor’ you could take instead? Meaning that Astrologian wouldn’t become a guaranteed job for raids? And I mean, you’d also have more variety in the kind of healers you could take. You could use WHM/SCH for more powerful healing and direct DPS, WHM/AST for healing and some DPS buffs, SCH/CHM for shields and whatever buffs Chemist would bring. I mean, maybe a ‘Chemist’ would act as a competitor to Scholar more than Astrologian, providing shields and high DPS uptime or something like that.

That said, I think what I’m more getting at that maybe it would’ve been easier for them to balance out the way the healer role does things if we got any kind of fourth healer lol. I mean, it seems to me that it’s easier to create a balance with 4 because you can ‘split’ the kinds of healer there are by 2:2 instead of having to split them 2:1. And splitting them means that it’s easier to avoid any one becoming ‘compulsary’ because they can make sure that each healer has its own kind of ‘competition’. It would also mean they could do something more interesting with Sects, since it would have to be directly competing with both White Mage and Scholar

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Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

I would love a Chemist healer

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I swear you've read my mind, I've been saying this for years myself. Would be cool to have a healer and didn't use spells to heal but instead potion. I mean how cool would it be if there revive ability was called Phoenix Down!

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Originally Posted by Eira95

I mean how cool would it be if there revive ability was called Phoenix Down!

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Not terribly, since Phoenix Down is an item we can acquire in Palace of the Dead. It's also a feather from a bird that nobody is supposed to know exists in this world, not the name of some special potion, and has nothing to do with chemistry.
If anything I'd expect the revival ability would be called something like "Smelling Salts", or just "Revive".

Like, I get wanting to see another classic FF job represented, or recycling brand names for the nostalgia, but for the most part I've only seen people rely on "How cool would it be to see a potion-based healer!" as their entire argument to push CHM.
And the problem is, "doesn't use spells" is purely cosmetic. Balance-wise we would still need to have a healer that wears and scales their potencies with healing gear, is equally vulnerable to Silence effects and interruption, and has the same LB1-2 as everyone else. It would probably have all of its skills classified as spells and its job sorted under Disciples of Magic.

You're hoping for different visual FX. That's it.

A) How many people begging for it would actually play it? And I don't mean "oh I'll try anything once" or "I'll level it for the title/achievement and all maxed jobs" or "I'll main it if it's the Best healing job for my static" -- those are applicable to any healer addition.
How many would seriously go "I never considered taking up a healing job before but then they announced CHEMIST," or actually are hyped for CHM to exist right now, as we speak, so they can personally make it their new main?
I know people who are dying to see Geomancer return from 11, I know people who would start playing the game if they saw Necromancers being advertised, I'm constantly batting off people with a stick in RDM forums who want to turn it into Spellblade or Mystic Knight or Rune Fencer, but I cannot fathom Chemist having such an impact, because its abilities were always dependent on buffing consumables that everyone already had access to, giving it a very limited personal identity.

B) Aside from some potion-based reskins of the regular healer staples, can anyone here actually give me 3 unique examples of Chemist "spells" and abilities they would want to see that aren't Mix?
Or hell, suggest a not-exploitable version of Mix that isn't just a clone of NIN Mudras or AST Cards? 'Cuz the fact that the devs tried and couldn't is why we have AST, and I've yet to see someone so much as suggest outcomes for Mix if it did work.

At this point, every time I hear Chemist or Salve-maker or Potion Seller or whatever suggested, I can only imagine how many just want to pat themselves on the back for their "totally original idea" if it ever happens, just to say "you're welcome" to the people who were hoping for a different healer... and then scatter like cockroaches in sunlight when actually tasked to play it, because they wanted an aesthetic and expected by some miracle for it to be functional (because that's the devs' job, so clearly they can make anything work) but didn't actually care how it played so long as it completed their "collection" of jobs from other entries.
Or just wouldn't be caught dead healing.

Who here actually is speaking with a horse in this race? Who's actually hyped for Chemist for its own unique skills, contributions to groups, the healing paradigm, the game as a whole, and not just 'cuz it's a name in the proverbial hat and/or they couldn't think of anything more "different" from what we already have?

New healer class request: Astrologian
The old one can be placed in exactly as was it. This new class, that is now called astrologian for some unknown mystery, can be called: Conductor or Energizer. And voila, 2 new healer class for next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Who here actually is speaking with a horse in this race? Who's actually hyped for Chemist for its own unique skills, contributions to groups, the healing paradigm, the game as a whole, and not just 'cuz it's a name in the proverbial hat and/or they couldn't think of anything more "different" from what we already have?

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Chemist Idea

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Your post totally felt like bait because I got super hyped about the Chemist idea pretty much right after Shadowbringer release. Mix is of course very iconic, but a lesser known ability was Stash, which allowed for the new item to be combined for later use, I thought the idea of a healer that didn't come with set oGCDs, and instead made it's own oGCDs for later use would be a really nice idea. But you're right, Chemist by itself has never been an identity outside of mix, so I took from what's currently available with some apothecaries, and mixed it with Garlean tech, tossed in a dash of aether, to create the Diagnosis and Prognosis style skills. From there, a bit came down to using items we haven't seen in this Final Fantasy, like aerosols from FFXIII, and Cottages from basically every other game. There are good ideas to be had with Chemist, they just require expanding on, and an over reliance on only designing a Mix mechanic seems to cripple lots of ideas.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

Your post totally felt like bait because I got super hyped about the Chemist idea pretty much right after Shadowbringer release. Mix is of course very iconic, but a lesser known ability was Stash, which allowed for the new item to be combined for later use, I thought the idea of a healer that didn't come with set oGCDs, and instead made it's own oGCDs for later use would be a really nice idea. But you're right, Chemist by itself has never been an identity outside of mix, so I took from what's currently available with some apothecaries, and mixed it with Garlean tech, tossed in a dash of aether, to create the Diagnosis and Prognosis style skills. From there, a bit came down to using items we haven't seen in this Final Fantasy, like aerosols from FFXIII, and Cottages from basically every other game. There are good ideas to be had with Chemist, they just require expanding on, and an over reliance on only designing a Mix mechanic seems to cripple lots of ideas.

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Y'know what, you're valid.

This is literally the first attempt I've seen someone make at an actual concept for Chemist as a full job. I think there's some thematic overlap with SCH and I'm still not necessarily certain I agree with your concept since I see a handful of flaws, but you have at least put more thought into it than most regurgitations so credit where it's due.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Y'know what, you're valid.

This is literally the first attempt I've seen someone make at an actual concept for Chemist as a full job. I think there's some thematic overlap with SCH and I'm still not necessarily certain I agree with your concept since I see a handful of flaws, but you have at least put more thought into it than most regurgitations so credit where it's due.

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Bahaha, you caught me on the SCH bit, for most potencies I copied durations or tried to take something close to the average among all three healers, but the rest of my design was focused on making a job that used preemptive healing, the defense bonus on mix was partially to balance some lower potency options, and partially to encourage using items before tank busters as well as for traditional healing. But I’m happy you thought my idea was at least somewhat unique :D

Chemist would definitely bring me back to healing. I made a post a while back in the lvl 70 era on how I would love to see a Chemist operate, and I threw in Primeval Brew (From FFXI as a fun little throwback) not sure if any FFXI fan out there recognizes what that is about though XD.

But Chemist, give it to us SE!

Below is that post I made a while back ago, I need to update it bc it's only lvl 70.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Healer-Concept

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

Chemist would definitely bring me back to healing.

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Okay... Why?
What do you find uniquely gripping about Chemist, as a full job, that no existing job can accomplish?

Seeing how it is going, just remove all the healers and give DPS and tanks the ability to heal. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Okay... Why?
What do you find uniquely gripping about Chemist, as a full job, that no existing job can accomplish?

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I'd love to see a healer move away from its traditional magic based healing. Give me something new, unique, that plays in the same role (regardless of it all being flavor text). Give me a cool hand-cannon, remove cast time, on-the-go, no interruptions, etc. I think it would be a neat concept.

Also look at my concept on it. It's a pretty easy read, and I did my best to NOT copy / paste anything related to the other healers. For example, the Chemist will bolster Attributes, rather than giving them an attack buff. But... again, it's all Role Play lol.

The way I see it with Chemist, if the theory about DNC not being a healer was right because DNC is non-magical, then having CHM be a non-magical healer is unlikely. It wouldn't surprise me if they were a support-oriented ranged job, but an actual healer is more likely to be an actual caster.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

The way I see it with Chemist, if the theory about DNC not being a healer was right because DNC is non-magical, then having CHM be a non-magical healer is unlikely. It wouldn't surprise me if they were a support-oriented ranged job, but an actual healer is more likely to be an actual caster.

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I don't remember them saying Dancer wasn't made into a healer because it is non-magical. Their reasoning was that there were only two physical ranged DPS jobs and they wanted to add another.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Who here actually is speaking with a horse in this race? Who's actually hyped for Chemist for its own unique skills, contributions to groups, the healing paradigm, the game as a whole, and not just 'cuz it's a name in the proverbial hat and/or they couldn't think of anything more "different" from what we already have?

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You must be really fun at parties

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Originally Posted by lunar_seraphim

I don't remember them saying Dancer wasn't made into a healer because it is non-magical. Their reasoning was that there were only two physical ranged DPS jobs and they wanted to add another.

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Hence "theory". It was quite popular around the time DNC was officially announced.

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Originally Posted by Eira95

You must be really fun at parties

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Loads more fun than Chemist.
But hey, how dare I actually care about what jobs I want to play rather than idly naming jobs that are already represented.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Hence "theory". It was quite popular around the time DNC was officially announced.

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I remember people being spectacle about a healer Dancer because it might require it being a melee, but not because it was non-magic based. A non-magic based healer has long been requested from what I've read. And given nearly every expansion job they've introduced has been largely because of fan requests, this "theory" doesn't carry much weight in my eyes.

A lot of what people are requesting for healer roles aren't necessarily unreasonable, it's just that they're can't function from a standpoint of "Put Chemist in," and that's because most jobs in Final Fantasy don't heal. Before the devs came up with what we have for Scholar, it wouldn't have worked at all. "Put Scholar in" would've been just as unreasonable. In it's original rendition, Scholar could only cast low tier black and white magic, had Scan, and...that's it, the job would've been laughable if it were introduced into XIV as a rudimentary red mage.

Another popular request is Geomancer, and well, that job never even had access to healing to begin with, it was a randomized spell class, a shift that hard may as well be the same as asking Beastmaster to be a healer.

I'm of the mind that if people are going to request healers, they should at least have a preferred design to go with it, doesn't asking for someone else to do all the work seem a little boring?

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

A lot of what people are requesting for healer roles aren't necessarily unreasonable, it's just that they're can't function from a standpoint of "Put Chemist in," and that's because most jobs in Final Fantasy don't heal. Before the devs came up with what we have for Scholar, it wouldn't have worked at all. "Put Scholar in" would've been just as unreasonable. In it's original rendition, Scholar could only cast low tier black and white magic, had Scan, and...that's it, the job would've been laughable if it were introduced into XIV as a rudimentary red mage.

Another popular request is Geomancer, and well, that job never even had access to healing to begin with, it was a randomized spell class, a shift that hard may as well be the same as asking Beastmaster to be a healer.

I'm of the mind that if people are going to request healers, they should at least have a preferred design to go with it, doesn't asking for someone else to do all the work seem a little boring?

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That is true, I absolutely loved SCH in FFXI, it was a fun healer / DPSer; not the BEST, but it's set of tools made it effective; it's probably why I don't play SCH in FFXIV, bc I loved it so much in FFXI that it's design here is so, idk, just not what I, as a player, envisioned bc it was warped by FFXI's great design. It goes with GEO too, FFXI's GEO was neat too, not revolutionary, but fun nonetheless.

I believe FFXIV could make a fun, unique GEO, that could fit with its current cookie-cutter framework, instead of "Holy", give it "Quake", instead of "Stone," give it "Water," instead of "Aero," give it, "Thunderstorm," and then fill in the gaps with its healing spells.

Back to Chemist, if put some effort by the Dev. team could be made fun, but they'd have to make it simple enough to where it's not a burden when healing.

Imagine having to Brew a powerful potion when a tank gets a tank buster and your instant mega heal is on GDC? Let's say, X-Potion is that OGCD (Benediction / Essential Dignity) move? He'd have to Combined 2 Super Potions to create a Mega Potion, pop the tank with it and hope he's not dead! While the other caster healers just pop a cure spell. But, since the CHM technically has no "cast time" they could fire 3 Super Potions at the tank before a caster can pop a cure.

Idk, this is all for fun! But I think CHM could work really well.

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Originally Posted by PatronasCharm

I believe FFXIV could make a fun, unique GEO, that could fit with its current cookie-cutter framework, instead of "Holy", give it "Quake", instead of "Stone," give it "Water," instead of "Aero," give it, "Thunderstorm," and then fill in the gaps with its healing spells.

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Personally I’d prefer if GEO skills went to CNJ/WHM instead, since geomancy already has deep ties to conjury and could provide WHM with access to shielding spells and maybe return the Elemental themes.

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

I'm of the mind that if people are going to request healers, they should at least have a preferred design to go with it, doesn't asking for someone else to do all the work seem a little boring?

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This. Precisely.

My problem with the requests for Chemist aren't because I hate the idea of a potion-based healer or whathaveyou. My problem is that "potion-based healer" is as far as most people get with the idea, and that only providing the aesthetics without a mechanical backing implies a lack of interest in how that affects gameplay. Mix alone can't do it any more than Scan alone would have made Scholar worthwhile here (and SCH didn't even have a "Scan"-like skill until Stormblood).
Just telling me "it's a healer that uses potions and technology instead of magic" doesn't excite me as a player (especially since in terms of gameplay, it will either be magic anyway or end up a support ranged job) -- the actual flow, abilities and impact of the job are what will make it worth playing.

Sure, there's a level of leaving it up to the devs to decide I'm sure, but if these are the same crowds that think the presence of an additional healer will help balance out the others, there should be a little less blind faith and a little more critical consideration.

Personally, this is why I keep saying Necromancer would be an interesting idea; there's so much more to it than wielding scythes or summoning zombies. You could get:

• Drain-based attacks, healing by redistributing life force, and use of HP as an alternate resource to create "battle healer" (attack in order to heal) gameplay
• The ability to give allies variant Undead statuses to increase their survivability (Vampire to leech HP, Ghost to evade attacks, Lich to delay death, etc)
• The power to summon and then sacrifice minions to heal or inflict damage
• Debuffs like Pain (AoE Paralysis?) or Fear/Hysteria to reduce crowd damage output
• Passive bonuses towards resurrection (maybe even take some of that burden off RDM?)
• Soul barriers, "false life" effects, and/or damage/healing inversion for tankbusters
• A potential repository for the dark magical utility skills BLM is apparently forbidden to grab, like Curse, mind control (Zombie!), or even Death (likely an Execution spell)

... any of which could provide a different take on healer gameplay AND change the healing paradigm with regards to our existing healers: WHM as the power healer and green DPS, SCH as the barrier mage and passive healer, AST as the vers healer and damage buffer, NCM as a rezbot for progression and battle healer off it.

Which can make it frustrating to have people turn around and simply say "Chemist!" with no interest in how it plays or what roles it fulfills, simply because the name invokes nostalgia.

Ah, but of course it's not the name, right? They'd be happy with "Salve-maker".
Which, I feel I must note, is quite a confusing attitude when these are often the same crowds who will also ask for Time Mage as a healer, when Astrologian is 14's Time Mage by a new (and dare I say, more appropriate) name.
Or the same crowds who will say "Necromancer isn't a classic FF job" fresh off of Gunbreaker and while pleading for Green Mage or a Plague Doctor.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Personally I’d prefer if GEO skills went to CNJ/WHM instead, since geomancy already has deep ties to conjury and could provide WHM with access to shielding spells and maybe return the Elemental themes.

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... Which is unlikely, given the shift WHM has taken towards being primarily Holy-oriented. I believe Yoshi-P has stated in interviews that the intent for WHM from here on out is to distance itself from the elements as much as possible in favor of Holy.

Meanwhile as Patronas has noted, WHM has never had need for spells like Quake or Flood or Tornado because it's primarily a healing job, who have minimal attacks outside of the three staples (filler, DoT, AoE).
It's not only more fitting to put some of the most powerful elemental spells in the lore in the hands of a separate DPS job, but more practical as well from a design and gameplay standpoint since they would have reason to use more than one.

Besides, while Conjurers and Geomancers bear some overlaps in toolkit (enough so to speculate that GEO would have been a branch off CNJ had the devs not regretted branching SCH), within the lore they are quite distinct. While Conjurers of the Twelveswood live in harmony and communion with the Elementals, the Geomancers of Hingashi and Othard instead use their powers to ward off or even subjugate negative spirits.
(The important distinction is in their weapons. CNJ/WHM use staves and wands made of unworked wood that the Elementals have blessed. Geomancers, based on Feng-shui practitioners, use bells so that the ringing can repel evil spirits, hence the "gong" sounds you'll hear as they attack throughout HoH and Swallow's Compass.)

I would argue that to claim GEO can't exist because it shares some abilities with WHM would be like claiming PLD or RDM couldn't exist for the same reasons. They may have similar powers but they are used entirely differently, ie "not as a healer".

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Originally Posted by Ryoutoshi

I'd like it if the Chemist felt like a potion/gadget themed job with some form of tie-in with Alchemy crafting. I know the potions, elemental resistances, and status potions, got removed for lack of use and such. But without them I feel like Alchemy is really missing something vital.

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Referring to the Alchemy tie-in. What about for people who don’t have Alchemy leveled? Would they just not be able to be a Chemist?

And if it didn’t have a tie in, why would we have both a chemist and an alchemist?

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Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

Referring to the Alchemy tie-in. What about for people who don’t have Alchemy leveled? Would they just not be able to be a Chemist?

And if it didn’t have a tie in, why would we have both a chemist and an alchemist?

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I can't wait for the follow-up from people who want a Godbert-inspired Oil Wrestler job as an offshoot of Goldsmith.
Or for Pirate to require Fishing as a prereq. Maybe a Botanist-Druid or Leatherworker-Beastmaster.

/s

I'm going to throw a wild option out of left field and say I would love to see the Psychic Dress Sphere from FFX2 turned into a healer in XIV. I always loved it's aesthetic and style, and it's playstyle in X-2 was all about protecting against elemental damage, so it's wide open on what it could actually be made into in a hypothetical XIV option. It's teleportation abilities would provide the healer role with a much needed mobility option, and it's nul and eater spells would be fun to represent a new way of healing by choosing the correct spell to 'eat' damage and convert it into HP. But more importantly it would be a job that based on it's aesthetic would provide some much needed hype to the role. With Dancer having gone to Ranged DPS, we've pretty much ran out of all the most iconic FF job's that have that certain 'cool' factor that get many players super excited to try out something new. I feel like instead of going with another robed, sparkle mage healer, the next one should be one that shift's the paradigm a bit.

Admittedly I know a Psychic has almost 0% chance of ever happening in this game, but the idea remains. A chemist could be cool but again I would want to see it really have an aesthetic counter to the current healers. A chemist I could see having a very battlefield, gunbreaker styled modern look, using a healing dart gun and actually walking around in Armor instead of robes. I feel healing need's this as a foil to the look of all it's current jobs.

I honestly do not expect a new healer job next expansion or ever. They always cite balance issues when asked about adding new healers and the balance issues are never going away. The reality is that one job will always be better, no matter how slight, than others. this was true for other jobs and yet they added more DPS and tanks last expansion.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I honestly do not expect a new healer job next expansion or ever. They always cite balance issues when asked about adding new healers and the balance issues are never going away. The reality is that one job will always be better, no matter how slight, than others. this was true for other jobs and yet they added more DPS and tanks last expansion.

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If this is what actually occurs then Healer players will eventually start quitting the game, and unlike all the other times where players are just being hyperbolic, they would have a valid reason. Terrible melee balance in 3.0 when Monk was considered a meme and DRG and NIN was a hard locked meta combo didn't stop them from adding SAM. Terrible caster balance in 3.0 when summoner was blowing Black Mage out of the water didn't stop them from adding Red Mage. Dark Knight in 4.0 was no different then White Mage in 4.0 yet they added Gunbreaker, Machinist was an absolute meme compared to Bard in 4.0 and yet Dancer got thrown in with no thought at all, while also doing a complete and total gutting of Bard on top of it.

Healer every time they have added a job there has been a balance problem. This will never change, and it never will. So if they continue to cling to that, they better be ready to start losing players over it.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

If this is what actually occurs then Healer players will eventually start quitting the game, and unlike all the other times where players are just being hyperbolic, they would have a valid reason. Terrible melee balance in 3.0 when Monk was considered a meme and DRG and NIN was a hard locked meta combo didn't stop them from adding SAM. Terrible caster balance in 3.0 when summoner was blowing Black Mage out of the water didn't stop them from adding Red Mage. Dark Knight in 4.0 was no different then White Mage in 4.0 yet they added Gunbreaker, Machinist was an absolute meme compared to Bard in 4.0 and yet Dancer got thrown in with no thought at all, while also doing a complete and total gutting of Bard on top of it.

Healer every time they have added a job there has been a balance problem. This will never change, and it never will. So if they continue to cling to that, they better be ready to start losing players over it.

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First off, not enjoying playing a game is an excellent reason to stop playing it. I’d say better than anger at the devs over their continued behaviour.

Also, as you say, balance issues have never stopped the devs from adding a new dps class. Yet they cited balance as the reason that we didn’t get a new healer in Shadowbringers. If this double standard is worth getting angry over, it’s worth getting angry over now.

I agree with you that if they keep this up expansion after expansion more healers will get fed up and leave. I just don’t think it’s a discrete cause. It’s a continuous one, and it’s just a question of when each individual healer decides they’ve had enough.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I'm going to throw a wild option out of left field and say I would love to see the Psychic Dress Sphere from FFX2 turned into a healer in XIV.

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I love left field ideas like this, not just 'cuz they're unexpected, but because the people who pose them tend to put a greater deal of thought into their reasoning than people whose suggestions just rely on buzzwords.

My main concern, however, is that aside from "Magic" and "Physical" damage in a broad sense, elemental typings don't really matter to damage. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if most bosses today simply default to Unaspected damage for magic, barring obvious elemental themes. So you end up with a heavy, heavy imbalance with Psychic's "spell eating" ability, since having specific elemental effects would be basically pointless most of the time and even potentially crippling based on the healer's encyclopedic knowledge of the exceptions to what is or isn't Elemental/Magic/Physical damage.

There better be new healer in the next expansion or later on in this one. Or I would say the healers should go on strike and then see how Yoshi will fix the problem. I use to main a healer but not anymore since 5.0. Next expansion they better get rid of mp to make it fair where ones that used tp don't have to worry about running out of it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

My problem with the requests for Chemist aren't because I hate the idea of a potion-based healer or whathaveyou. My problem is that "potion-based healer" is as far as most people get with the idea, and that only providing the aesthetics without a mechanical backing implies a lack of interest in how that affects gameplay.

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All the suggestions for CHM I have ever seen have been because of the gameplay implication rather than aesthetics. The idea of mix fits so well with XIV and would be central to CHMs mechanical identity, just as cards are for AST. People are always throwing around the idea of "healing mudras", and now that we have dancer, the idea of incorporating the step/mudra functionality into a healer seems very interesting and very feasible.

Please don't presume the reasons for why people want jobs. I threw around CHM early in the thread and by the sounds of your comment, you would assume I only want it for the aesthetic, which simply isn't true. CHM aesthetic is bland.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Personally, this is why I keep saying Necromancer would be an interesting idea; there's so much more to it than wielding scythes or summoning zombies.

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Continuing from this, I've prepared a few ~samples~ to entice intrepid minds.

Lore/Background

Priests of the city state of Ul'dah favor Nald'thal, overseer of transactions and the underworld. Many who come to the city seek to barter not only for riches, but for their very lives.

Long ago during a war with its sister city of Sil'dih, the Thaumaturges of Ul'dah developed alchemical means to alter the aetheric composition of a target, turning their foes into the undead so they might tear one another apart. Following the horrors of this war, the secrets of undead conversion were locked away to forever be forgotten. In recent years however, enthusiasts of history have once again brought these secrets to light.

Today, the Order of Nald'thal instead use the same vital knowledge to extend lives, cure ailments, study and slay Ashkin, sanctify graveyards, and bring solace to both the living and the dying, while carefully monitored so as not to repeat the atrocities of the past...

Weapons: Scythes (including Warscythes, Hooks, Sickles, Kama and possibly Kusarigama)

Resources: Soul Gauge (stores up to 100 Soul Power, generated by damaging abilities and consumed by healing oGCDs), Revenants (sacrificial pets that function like Demi-summons)

Other design notes:

• Primary healing method is based on sacrifice -- stocking excess healing as Soul Power to be transferred to allies, sacrificing minions, etc.
• Use of HP as an alternative resource mitigates MP consumption
• Use of life drain and Max HP/healing-received buffs substitute for HoTs and Shields
• Pets ideally function as substitute for DoT effects in damage balance pass
• High uptime, low damage before execution phase

Damage skills

Drain (II/III/IV/Reap) (1.5 sec cast): Deal moderate unaspected damage to the target.
Additional effect: Restores a percentage of HP to the caster on a successful hit. If the caster is restored to full health, overhealing is converted into Soul Power.

Pain (2.5 sec cast): Deal moderate unaspected damage to the target and nearby enemies.
Additional effect: Generates Soul Power for each target struck.
Additional effect: Inflicts Paralysis on enemies not already affected.
Duration: 15s

Scourge (Instant): Deal minor unaspected damage to the target.

Death (2.5 sec cast, 15 sec CD): Deal heavy unaspected damage to the target. No effect on targets above 25% health.
Additional effect: If damage is dealt, attempts to inflict Instant Death on the target. No effect on enemies of higher level than you.
Additional effect: Fully replenishes Soul Gauge and resets cooldown if target is killed by either effect of Death.

Oath (2.5 sec cast): Call forth a Revenant to fight for you. Up to three Revenants may be active at a time. Each time you cast a spell on an enemy, each active Revenant will execute Haunt on the same target. Always summons up to the maximum number of Revenants if cast out of combat.
Haunt: Deals low damage and restores Soul Power to the Necromancer.

Soul Douse (oGCD command): Instantly sacrifice an active Revenant to deal moderate unaspected damage to enemies near your target.

Healing skills

Numb (1.5 sec cast): Restore moderate health to self or target.

Wake (8 sec cast): Resurrects target to a weakened state.

False Life (2 sec cast): Restore health to the target while temporarily increasing their maximum health and healing received. This effect does not stack.
Duration: 10s

Soul Bind (2 min oGCD): Generate an aetheric bond with target party member. Each time you receive a healing effect while the bond is active, 75% of the health transfers to that target instead. Recast the effect to end the bond.
Duration: 20s

Vital Shift (1 sec oGCD): Siphon Soul Power to instantly heal the target. If not enough Soul Power is available, consumes a percentage of the caster's HP instead.

Sacrifice (15 sec oGCD): Siphon triple Soul Power to instantly heal all nearby party members. If not enough Soul Power is available, consumes a greater percentage of the caster's HP instead.

Soul Wall (30 sec oGCD): Consume all available Soul Power to place a barrier on the target that absorbs damage equal to a percentage of their maximum health. Barrier potency scales with the amount of Soul Power consumed.
Duration: 30s

Soul Spiral (oGCD command): Instantly sacrifice an active Revenant to heal self and all nearby allies.

Phylactery (3 min oGCD): Store the soul of self or target ally, causing them to receive periodic damage. When the effect ends or they are reduced below 1 HP, all damage received during Phylactery is refunded to the target as health, to a minimum of 50% of the target's maximum health.
Additional effect: Immunity to most Instant Death effects
Duration: 10s
You may only apply one Undead status to targets at a time.

Vampyr (Instant): Grants Vampire to self or target ally, causing their attacks to heal for an additional 10% of damage they inflict.
Duration: 10s
You may only apply one Undead status to targets at a time.

Red Feast (2.5 sec cast): Grants Vampire to self and all nearby allies, causing their attacks to heal for an additional 5% of damage they inflict.
Duration: 15s
You may only apply one Undead status to targets at a time.

Utility skills

Blood Rite (20 sec oGCD): Double the effectiveness of the next ability that consumes Soul Power while increasing the health cost by 50%. This effect cannot reduce the caster below 1 HP.

Psychopomp (90 sec oGCD): Reduces the cast time of Drain, Pain and Death by 2.5 sec, while causing any damage dealt or health consumed to also recover MP.
Duration: 15s

Danse Macabre (Trait): The cast and recast time of Oath is reduced by 75% while no Revenants are active, and by 50% if less than two Revenants are active.

Veil Ethereal (90 sec oGCD): Grants Ethereal to self and all nearby allies, reducing all incoming damage by 10% and significantly raising evasion.
Duration: 10s
You may only apply one Undead status to targets at a time.

Stygian Spikes (1 min oGCD): Clads self or target party member in the armor of the hells, causing attacks against them to deal unaspected damage to their attacker and generate minor Soul Power.
Duration: 10s
You may only apply one Undead status to targets at a time.

Seance (Trait): When the Soul Gauge is full, Wake is instant and consumes no MP, but consumes the entire Soul Gauge.

Thanatophobia (2.5 sec cast): Inflicts nearby enemies with Hysteria, causing them to flee in fear. Damage will end the effect.
Duration: 30s
Cancels auto-attack upon execution.
(Alternately it could inflict Terror, causing them to huddle in fear instead, but that felt a bit too much like Repose.)

Zombie Powder (Instant): Inflicts the target with Zombie, causing them to turn against allies.
Duration: 10s
Additional effect: Target is immune to Zombie status for 1 minute after execution.
Only one target may be afflicted with Zombie at a time.

Curse (2 min oGCD): Consume all available Soul Power to increase the target's vulnerability to damage. Duration is affected by amount of Soul Power consumed.

Exaltation (5 min oGCD): Dispel Weakness from a party member other than yourself, or reduce Brink of Death to Weakness for half of its remaining duration.

Shallow Grave (2.5 min oGCD): Marks an area that grants allies resistance to knockback and draw-in effects.
Additional effect: Leaden on enemies
Duration: 20s

Limit Break - Door of Souls: Open the gate to the underworld.

Worth noting that around half of the spells/abilities here are either references or direct calls to previous FF entries (or in a couple cases, Kingdom Hearts), if not lifted from existing enemy abilities in 14. Some of the other filler is more classically inspired by D&D, which early FF entries were inspired by.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Technically the healers are more balanced now than they've ever been, DPS output excluded...
People not liking the mechanics of those healers is an entirely different issue.

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No, it's not. The words were "fix" and "handle". That is in no way limited to balance. Gameplay has at least as much to do with the attractiveness of a job as how perfectly tight its balance is.

Oracle/Prophet from ff5 maybe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Oracle/Prophet from ff5 maybe

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No offense, but I think that's a terrible idea.

RNG and extreme teamkilling potential of its abilities aside, Oracle's Predict skill functions similarly to Geomancy in other entries. Besides, doesn't AST already thematically cover the "predicting the future" angle?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Continuing from this, I\\\\'ve prepared a few ~samples~ to entice intrepid minds.

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I like this purely because DPSing is not just filler, it\\\\'s a core component of its kit. I would love to see a healer with that sort of design in the game, one that DPSes, not because it has nothing else to do like the current healers, but because its needed to take full advantage of its kit. Not sure if necromancer will ever be in the game, am also not knowledgeable enough of FF lore to know what other job could possibly fit that role, but the design elements seem like fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I like this purely because DPSing is not just filler, it's a core component of its kit. I would love to see a healer with that sort of design in the game, one that DPSes, not because it has nothing else to do like the current healers, but because its needed to take full advantage of its kit. Not sure if necromancer will ever be in the game, am also not knowledgeable enough of FF lore to know what other job could possibly fit that role, but the design elements seem like fun.

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That's the idea: battle healer. Sure, there are tools there if you must use traditional healing, like if you get Amnesia or the boss flees (with Vampyr/Red Feast as its alternative to HoTs and False Life to shields), but the intent is that you would get greater efficiency out of displacing life force as your primary method with those tools on the side for "in case".
Sort of a "nothing comes for free, all energy must come from somewhere" deal. Give it sort of a natural weakness without crippling it.

And of course, because Drain's healing isn't actually dependent on the amount of damage done much like DRK's Abyssal variant, it not only prevents the issues caused by Drain in the hands of DPS jobs (though I still believe BLM should have some variation of it for a modicum of self-sustain in solo content), but allows for its damage to be tuned independently of its healing. Which means of course we don't necessarily have to worry about the immediate concern that progression players would jump on Necromancer for having higher boss uptime, since that wouldn't necessarily have to translate to particularly higher damage output (Death casts aside).

Besides, the FF11 devs did strongly consider Necromancer as an alternative to Puppetmaster (which I fully expect would end up a limited job were it to be introduced to 14). The only real reason to say it "can't" happen is because Necromancer (and Vampire from which some inspiration was drawn) has a more limited list of entries, and is therefore not recognized as a "classic". Meanwhile most of the abilities in the sample list are unused Black and Blue (or Saboteur) spells from previous entries or other Square properties, or even copied from enemies in 14, so the components for this type of dark healer already exist, just untapped.

Healing doesn't strike me as a priority for the dev team or something that they enjoy and frequently play themselves. If someone has a link to the contrary I'd be curious to read it but every time they answer questions about any of the healing roles it's a sentence whereas dps and tank roles get paragraphs of reasoning and explanation. As a result I'd be genuinely surprised if they were to add a heal anytime soon, or at least one that is fairly unique or different. I feel if they add a heal with the next expansion they'd be doing it more out of obligation then desire so my expectations in that regard are pretty low.

To those who think the 3 we have need to be truly balanced before adding another one that doesn't seem possible. I main heals, I don't see me ever leaving the role completely but it is disheartening the lack of reasoning or communication where the heal role is considered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I'm constantly batting off people with a stick in RDM forums who want to turn it into Spellblade or Mystic Knight or Rune Fencer

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Regarding RDM: I honestly wish they'd add a Spellblade / Mystic Knight so I can enjoy my fantasy of being a magical swordsman and others can enjoy their fantasy of whatever Red Mage is supposed to be. I doubt we'll ever see one though because it feels like the devs tried to put both class fantasies into one, and the more discussions I get into the more irreconcilable they seem to be.

I got into XIV's RDM because I love sword and magic, others want some sort of hybrid specialized in healer support and I'm stuck on the same job because class fantasies are just close enough.

Ive always lived the Oracle theme so I'd say sweet!

But isn't the Astro already a prophet of sorts? Might feel too similar is theme to others.

If SE wants to ever fix the situation of Healers, they should fix first the garbage mess that is Scholar/Summoner, by finally splitting these two up completely with each of them having an of Class to start with.
Then remove from Scholar all skills, that belong to it but basically to a Greenmage, spells like Bio, Miasma, Fester , Energy Drain, and from then on

- Add new skill replacements for the gaps,
- remove from all classes these garbage role skills and merge their effect from job to job individually into skills, this will help making the jobs more uniqye, if theres not half a dozen skills, that are for all jobs of a role the same.
Someone at SE should finally get some logic, count 1+1 together, to finally realize that Role Skills in this game are one of the most terribles ideas in this game, when you want to make actually classes unique. It's just counterproductive n obsolete, because their effect could be done all with different job specific skills as side effects or bonus effects.
- rework the Scholar gameplay to have its own mechanics, instead of sharing the same with SMNhowever the problem lies also partwise in the combat design, which is why all healers need to have certain skills, that fulfill specif ects, so that any healer combo is efficient enough together to heal their party good enough, when certain enemies are fought in the games dungeons, raids and 24er raids, where certain equality between healers is needed to be able to keep the party alive, like whm and ast basically share under their skills alot of similarities.