DRK do you wish you get Stalwart Soul at LV45 like the rest of the tanks?

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Lacking mana to use flood in the second pull and beyond does not give it away?

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I already accounted for mp gain. If you blow your load on the 1st pack that means it dies much faster. And the 2nd pack dies slower. On war for example, you also blow your load (zerk) on the 1st one and 2nd dies slower. On drk you have the choice to spread your damage out or burst on demand. The overall damage between the both is nearly the same (according to my previous math).

You are just repeating "but mp regen slow" when my damage estimates already accounted for that mp. You have the choice of when you spend it. Other tanks use CDs like zerk to buff damage significantly for a short time then have dead zones. Drk can blow their mp to burst a short time then have a dead zone. Its the same thing. Or you can spread put your mp over multiple pulls for more consistent output. Its the same amount of damage, you just choose when to turn the nozzle up to full for a burst or let it trickle out over time.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I already accounted for mp gain. If you blow your load on the 1st pack that means it dies much faster. And the 2nd pack dies slower. On war for example, you also blow your load (zerk) on the 1st one and 2nd dies slower. On drk you have the choice to spread your damage out or burst on demand. The overall damage between the both is nearly the same (according to my previous math).

You are just repeating "but mp regen slow" when my damage estimates already accounted for that mp. You have the choice of when you spend it. Other tanks use CDs like zerk to buff damage significantly for a short time then have dead zones. Drk can blow their mp to burst a short time then have a dead zone. Its the same thing. Or you can spread put your mp over multiple pulls for more consistent output. Its the same amount of damage, you just choose when to turn the nozzle up to full for a burst or let it trickle out over time.

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On second pull War's Overpower+Mythril Tempest+Steel Cyclone is the same with Unleashx2 that doesn't generate anything?

This is only from you compared it to WAR. But not PLD and GNB. At best it only make both DRK&WAR equal in term of the slow clearing mob with aoe but not all tanks.

Overpower and tempest dpnt generate anything either. They are just damage gcds until the trait kicks at 74 while drk gets its resource gcd generater at 72. There is no steel cyclone to spam because you only get gauge from aoe at 72. We only get 1 cyclone gauge from infuriate(lv 50) so thats ONE cyclone a minute. Which is exactly how many quietus drk gets (50 blood a minute from blood weapon). Its literally identical.

Again, i just did the war comparison because people kept making claims that drk has bad aoe dps at low levels withiut any evidence. I provided evidence thats not true based on war. If you want to continue to say that drk is gimped, then show it. Im not going to do even more math and time to make your own argument for you. You made the claim drk is actually bad at aoe damage. Burden if proof is on you.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Overpower and tempest dpnt generate anything either. They are just damage gcds until the trait kicks at 74 while drk gets its resource gcd generater at 72. There is no steel cyclone to spam because you only get gauge from aoe at 72. We only get 1 cyclone gauge from infuriate(lv 50) so thats ONE cyclone a minute. Which is exactly how many quietus drk gets (50 blood a minute from blood weapon). Its literally identical.

Again, i just did the war comparison because people kept making claims that drk has bad aoe dps at low levels withiut any evidence. I provided evidence thats not true based on war. If you want to continue to say that drk is gimped, then show it. Im not going to do even more math and time to make your own argument for you. You made the claim drk is actually bad at aoe damage. Burden if proof is on you.

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You've already provided all the math we need. According to your math, DRK and WAR have comparable to DPS when under optimal conditions. However, due to Flood's MP cost and the expectation for all tanks to chain pull, there will be pulls where you don't get to use it /at all/. There will also be pulls where you manage only one Flood of Darkness. Only your first pull is guaranteed to have several Floods. The others will have 1-2 at the most even if factoring in Blood Weapon. Bear in mind that these assertions are made assuming an average party with average skill level, meaning trash packs basically disintegrate anyway. The longer a kill takes to occur, the more DRK and WAR fall into a state of parity with one another. WAR wins out on short trash pulls if DRK is MP starved, DRK wins if it isn't. To reiterate: Both even out if a fight doesn't end very quickly.

So with that said, what /is/ your problem with people disliking the state of DRK at low level? Taking issue with lowbie DRK is not an attack on warriors.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Overpower and tempest dpnt generate anything either. They are just damage gcds until the trait kicks at 74 while drk gets its resource gcd generater at 72. There is no steel cyclone to spam because you only get gauge from aoe at 72. We only get 1 cyclone gauge from infuriate(lv 50) so thats ONE cyclone a minute. Which is exactly how many quietus drk gets (50 blood a minute from blood weapon). Its literally identical.

Again, i just did the war comparison because people kept making claims that drk has bad aoe dps at low levels withiut any evidence. I provided evidence thats not true based on war. If you want to continue to say that drk is gimped, then show it. Im not going to do even more math and time to make your own argument for you. You made the claim drk is actually bad at aoe damage. Burden if proof is on you.

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Darkside, increasing damage dealt by 10%
Storm's Eye Increases damage dealt by 10%

Unleash X 2 = 300
Overpower+Mythril Tempest = 330

See difference?

Now let go further

Heavy Swing+Maim+Storm's Path+Heavy Swing+Maim+Storm's Eye = 50 Beast Gauge = 1 steel cyclon/Decimate.

Heavy Swing+Maim+Storm's PathX2 = 60 Beast Gauge

Hard Slash+Syphon Strike+Souleater+Hard Slash+Syphon Strike+Souleater+Natural Mp regen = 2200 MP Not Enough to spend on Flood 3000 MP

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Darkside, increasing damage dealt by 10%
Storm's Eye Increases damage dealt by 10%

Unleash X 2 = 300
Overpower+Mythril Tempest = 330

See difference?

Now let go further

Heavy Swing+Maim+Storm's Path+Heavy Swing+Maim+Storm's Eye = 50 Beast Gauge = 1 steel cyclon/Decimate.

Heavy Swing+Maim+Storm's PathX2 = 60 Beast Gauge

Hard Slash+Syphon Strike+Souleater+Hard Slash+Syphon Strike+Souleater+Natural Mp regen = 2200 MP Not Enough to spend on Flood 3000 MP

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I literally accounted for both darkside buff and eye buff in my earlier math.

You are talking about single target rotations to get gauge in a thread about big pulls in dungeons and wanting stalwart soul earlier. If ANY tank is using single target to get resources in an aoe oack you are playing horribly wrong. Using eye is already a detrument to warrior because you are wasting 3 gvds to single target to get eye up while the drk did 150x3 to all targets with darkside up immediately as its ogcd. The only tank that should consider using st combos in aoe is warrior for eye and even thay is situational as the tradeoff of aoe damage is sometimes not worth it.

Just reread my math post. Everything you keep bringing up was already addressed there.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I literally accounted for both darkside buff and eye buff in my earlier math.

You are talking about single target rotations to get gauge in a thread about big pulls in dungeons and wanting stalwart soul earlier. If ANY tank is using single target to get resources in an aoe oack you are playing horribly wrong. Using eye is already a detrument to warrior because you are wasting 3 gvds to single target to get eye up while the drk did 150x3 to all targets with darkside up immediately as its ogcd. The only tank that should consider using st combos in aoe is warrior for eye and even thay is situational as the tradeoff of aoe damage is sometimes not worth it.

Just reread my math post. Everything you keep bringing up was already addressed there.

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More like you never play DRK. How else you're gonna regen MP? I ask you MR.WAR

You continue to bring up math and say it was indentical but purposely leave Enhanced Infuriate out.

You think Using eye is already a detrument to warrior but you have no idea that if DRK don't don't use Syphon at all they won't get enough mp to use Flood/Edge either.

There's nothing to stop war from using eye on the last 1-2 mob that survive in your aoe if you didn't already used it.
Same can be said about DRK who get to use single target combo when there's a surrive mob.

Stop limit yourself to the math and theory and go do the real experiment.

*And for the last time this is just DRK&WAR but not including PLD and GNB so it change nothing that DRK and maybe WAR have the lowest aoe damage.*

Oh and I didn't say big pull. Just a pull and second pull so don't invent it and say it was my word.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

More like you never play DRK. How else you're gonna regen MP? I ask you MR.WAR

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70 Drk and War thank you.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

You continue to bring up math and say it was indentical but purposely leave Enhanced Infuriate out

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That trait is lv 66. Most of this discussion has focused on low level and all of it has focused on 69 and down. For 3 levels of this range war has enhanced infuriate. But when you are AOE-ing trash pulls you are not generating ANY gauge to spend and reduce the recast time. So you are getting any use out of enhanced infuriate. It really kicks in at 70 with IR giving free gauge actions and moreso in the mid 70s when war gets resources from its AOE.....just like drk.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

You think Using eye is already a detrument to warrior but you have no idea that if DRK don't don't use Syphon at all they won't get enough mp to use Flood/Edge either.

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Using a single target combo is TERRIBLE dps loss when you are fighting a pack of mobs. So yes. Being forced to either: Loose 3gcds of aoe damage on a big pack of mobs OR loose 10% damage buff are both detriments. That means they are bad things you would rather not have to do, but both your options are bad. Compared to say....Drk who GAINS damage from using an AOE OGCD action which ALSO increases future damage by 10%. That would be a win win while war putting up eye (sacrificing aoe for 3 gcds) or forgoing it for the pull are both loose loose.

You get enough MP to use flood doing NOTHING at all passively every 45 seconds. 200 mp per tic. A tick is 3 seconds. You get 1 free flood a minute from blood weapon which means, just using blood weapon and passive regen nets you 7500 mp per minute (and you still have 600 from CS). Maintaining darkside costs 6000 mp/minute. You have no excuse to be unable to maintain darkside except playing really, really, badly.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

There's nothing to stop war from using eye on the last 1-2 mob that survive in your aoe if you didn't already used it.
Same can be said about DRK who get to use single target combo when there's a surrive mob.

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Correct. But remember how even WITH eye, war breaks even with Drk? So youre telling me that a properly played warrior can maintain eye just like i said 1 sentence up that a properly played drk can maintain darkside. And just as war can use the last 1-2 mobs to refresh eye, so can drk use a combo on last 1-2 mobs to gain some extra MP to maintain their 10% buff and blood to prep for the next pull. So, its like ive been saying all along, they are roughly equal for dungeon spam unless someone misplays either job badly, which is on them.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Stop limit yourself to the math and theory and go do the real experiment.

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Again. Drk 70. I play it. This isnt all some armchair BS. I have played war as my main and drk as my 2nd job through stormblood and toyed with it a bit back in HW. Raided with drks routinely, etc. I'm quite familiar with drk in all of its iterations.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Oh and I didn't say big pull. Just a pull and second pull so don't invent it and say it was my word.

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This thread has been talking about big dungeon pulls for the entire time. The entire point of this thread is discussion Drks AOE actions. If you want to talk about a bunch of single target combos and how they compare, feel free to start a new topic. This one has been firmly rooted in discussing AOE for pages now.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

This thread has been talking about big dungeon pulls for the entire time. The entire point of this thread is discussion Drks AOE actions. If you want to talk about a bunch of single target combos and how they compare, feel free to start a new topic. This one has been firmly rooted in discussing AOE for pages now.

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NO I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT BIG PULL Give me a QUOTE about me saying big pull. I talk about first pull and beyond not the big pull. Irony how you accuse other people for put the words in your mouth but you kept trying to do that to me.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

70 Drk and War thank you.


That trait is lv 66. Most of this discussion has focused on low level and all of it has focused on 69 and down. For 3 levels of this range war has enhanced infuriate. But when you are AOE-ing trash pulls you are not generating ANY gauge to spend and reduce the recast time. So you are getting any use out of enhanced infuriate. It really kicks in at 70 with IR giving free gauge actions and moreso in the mid 70s when war gets resources from its AOE.....just like drk.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

What I want to say : DRK is the slowest among the tanks to clear the pull below lv72 when there's more than 1 pull to clear. So I think it might be better to get Stalwart Soul instead of the Flood of Darkness at lower level and ask DRK if they feel the same.

It have nothing to do with boringness.

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Unfortunate for you I was talking about DRK below 72 all this time. You just didn't notice and yes that mean LV70 and Inner Release count!

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Using a single target combo is TERRIBLE dps loss when you are fighting a pack of mobs. So yes. Being forced to either: Loose 3gcds of aoe damage on a big pack of mobs OR loose 10% damage buff are both detriments. That means they are bad things you would rather not have to do, but both your options are bad. Compared to say....Drk who GAINS damage from using an AOE OGCD action which ALSO increases future damage by 10%. That would be a win win while war putting up eye (sacrificing aoe for 3 gcds) or forgoing it for the pull are both loose loose.

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Yes all the while Leaving 50-55 sec Enc Infuriate, and Berserk-Inner Release out and not taking +20 beastguage per eye combo into account. Drk win win while war puting up eye and lose lose when Enc Infuraite/Berserk IR came up?

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Originally Posted by Izsha

You get enough MP to use flood doing NOTHING at all passively every 45 seconds. 200 mp per tic. A tick is 3 seconds. You get 1 free flood a minute from blood weapon which means, just using blood weapon and passive regen nets you 7500 mp per minute (and you still have 600 from CS). Maintaining darkside costs 6000 mp/minute. You have no excuse to be unable to maintain darkside except playing really, really, badly.

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Notice I said "Edge" and "enough" too? We need more than a "1 Edge every 30 seconds" for boss. It wasn't an excuse because it wasn't just to keep darkside up. It's tiring when I have to deal with someone who love to accuse.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Correct. But remember how even WITH eye, war breaks even with Drk? So youre telling me that a properly played warrior can maintain eye just like i said 1 sentence up that a properly played drk can maintain darkside. And just as war can use the last 1-2 mobs to refresh eye, so can drk use a combo on last 1-2 mobs to gain some extra MP to maintain their 10% buff and blood to prep for the next pull. So, its like ive been saying all along, they are roughly equal for dungeon spam unless someone misplays either job badly, which is on them.

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Nope, It isn't what you've been saying all along. They aren't equal.
While we debating about aoe for only 2 tanks. Utility and single target dps also play big part in how each tanks can clear and everyone know all tanks aren't equal.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Yes all the while Leaving 50-55 sec Enc Infuriate, and Berserk-Inner Release out and not taking +20 beastguage per eye combo into account. Drk win win while war puting up eye and lose lose when Enc Infuraite/Berserk IR came up?

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Dude. Seriously i included zerk. I included infuriate. I included mp. I included literally everything you keep bringing up in the 1st post where i drew it all out pages ago.

The entire thread is about low level aoes and dark knighrs supposed lack of aoe for low level dungeons and now your talking about inner release which is a lv 70 skill. If the thread was ablut lv 70+ aoe i would have included it in my analysis. I didn't 'leave it out' or forget about it. You have been moving the goalposts with every post you make.

This was a narrow discussion about aoe dps at low levels. Then you accuse me of ignoring defenses. Then single target combos and now lv 70+ skills. If this was a thread about those things i would have brought them up 5 pages ago.

The primary point that you have not grasped is that a number of people have made multiple threads claiming that low level drk aoe is worse than the other tanks without backing it up. Unsubstantiated claims. I provided evidence to show that drks aoe damage isnt actually bad at low levels vs other tanks. That is the only point i have been making and you keep popping back aaying im wrong by falsly saying im ignoring factors that i plainly included in the math. When that fails you move the goal posts to something unrelated to aoe damage at liw levels. When that fails you say i dont play drk to try to discredit me. But none of that actually makes your unsubstantiated claim that drk does poor aoe damage at low levels correct and it doesnt make my math wrong.

The ONLY item that has has been pointed out to be wrong in my initial post is a minor oversight where i calculated steel cyclone/decimate at 1 minute infuriate and i should have put it at 55 seconds as it reduces its own timer. But considering that that only increases potency per second for war by 0.09 potency per second, it does not change the conclusion.

So, unless you actually have any actual evidence, see an error in my math, or can point out a variable i overlooked then we're done here. Im not going to entertain forever changing goal posts or getting into arguments over claims i never made.

Darks aoe damage at low levels is on par with other tanks and does not need to have stalwart soul in the 40s as that would grossly overpower drks aoe damage by a wide margin when it is currently in line with other tanks. For evidence see my page 3 math post.

You claim it was about the big pull

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Originally Posted by Izsha

This thread has been talking about big dungeon pulls for the entire time.

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Now you find it isn't true. You try to change it to "about low level aoes" instead.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

The entire thread is about low level aoes and dark knighrs supposed lack of aoe for low level dungeons and now your talking about inner release which is a lv 70 skill. If the thread was ablut lv 70+ aoe i would have included it in my analysis. I didn't 'leave it out' or forget about it. You have been moving the goalposts with every post you make.

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But what is this thread all about :

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

What I want to say : DRK is the slowest among the tanks to clear the pull below lv72 when there's more than 1 pull to clear. So I think it might be better to get Stalwart Soul instead of the Flood of Darkness at lower level and ask DRK if they feel the same.

It have nothing to do with boringness.

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You also have already been informed:

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

*Also, I didn't say that I won't do lower content. I just want DRK to be able to clear it as fast as other tanks*

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It isn't only about AOE. It is about clear. AOE Clear is a part of it.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

The primary point that you have not grasped is that a number of people have made multiple threads claiming that low level drk aoe is worse than the other tanks without backing it up. Unsubstantiated claims.

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Other people are other people. They aren't me. I don't have to answer for anything they have done or would you like to answer for everything other WAR said? It's just an excuse that you need so you can feel justify to post against me.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Tldr: drk damage is perfectly fine. Every tank is slow and boring in low level dungeons.

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You claim "Every tank is slow and boring in low level dungeons."

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

1 Flood cost 3000/10000 MP.

And I play PLD,GNB. They're not slow and boring. I can spam AOE COMBO at no cost and kill all mob that stand in my path easily. Meanwhile DRK below Lv.72 is mp starving.

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But when it have been proved otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I accounted for the mp cost if you read the post. Both in passive regen and from all actions that give mp at those levels. So your point is?

If you think hitting ABABAB is some amazing engaging gameplay drk is missing out on instead of hitting AAAAAA then youre entitled to your opinion. I see no real difference between them. Managing that mp and ogcds on timers is FAR more engaging than having no resources to manage and spamming 2 buttons in sequence for entire dungeons. But again, liking or not liking a playstyle is personal preference. Dps, however, is not an opinion. In this regard tanks are the most balanced they have ever been. You want to talk about trash pull mitigation and subjective 'fun-ness' go right ahead.

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You ignored it without acknowledge that You're also entitled to your own opinion and move goal post from balance to only aoe. "This thread has been talking about big dungeon pulls for the entire time" "The entire thread is about low level aoes"

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Originally Posted by Izsha

This was a narrow discussion about aoe dps at low levels. Then you accuse me of ignoring defenses. Then single target combos and now lv 70+ skills. If this was a thread about those things i would have brought them up 5 pages ago.

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You did brought them up

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Tank dps is VERY balanced at all stages right now. Single target. Aoe. While leveling. At cap. This is the most balanced offensive state tanks have ever been in.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

But none of that actually makes your unsubstantiated claim that drk does poor aoe damage at low levels correct and it doesnt make my math wrong.

The ONLY item that has has been pointed out to be wrong in my initial post is a minor oversight where i calculated steel cyclone/decimate at 1 minute infuriate and i should have put it at 55 seconds as it reduces its own timer. But considering that that only increases potency per second for war by 0.09 potency per second, it does not change the conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

So, its like ive been saying all along, they are roughly equal for dungeon spam unless someone misplays either job badly, which is on them.

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You're wrong and quick to assume when you didn't dare to include IR, Enc Infuriate and Vengeance, You don't include the utility and single target dps that make tanks "NOT EQUAL IN DUNGEON SPAM"

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Darks aoe damage at low levels is on par with other tanks and does not need to have stalwart soul in the 40s as that would grossly overpower drks aoe damage by a wide margin when it is currently in line with other tanks. For evidence see my page 3 math post.

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To top it off. You were so good at analysis thing that you didn't even take a moment to look that I say

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

So I think it might be better to get Stalwart Soul instead of the Flood of Darkness at lower level .

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Which would make DRK not op but suffered aoe dps loss because there's no Flood to use until LV 72.

Ah...If you only you did play DRK like you have claimed [twice?] and not being so overly jealous and paranoid about drk could get something op that WAR didn't get their hand on.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

So, unless you actually have any actual evidence, see an error in my math, or can point out a variable i overlooked then we're done here. Im not going to entertain forever changing goal posts or getting into arguments over claims i never made..

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Yeah, it's past time you stop haunting this post now. I was beginning to wonder that you might be some kind of a Wraith that need exorcism.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

snip

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a small tip, if you use the blue "+" on the right down of each post you can chain multiple quotes on a single post, if not you can copy all and edit the 1º one so you fit all in one without need to public multiple ones and bypass the character limitation (edit have no character limitation)^^.

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Originally Posted by shao32

a small tip, if you use the blue "+" on the right down of each post you can chain multiple quotes on a single post, if not you can copy all and edit the 1º one so you fit all in one without need to public multiple ones and bypass the character limitation (edit have no character limitation)^^.

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Thank You!!

i think every tank suppose to have similar skills at same level like they do now untill they reach lv50, They need just to adjust how Tanks learn similar skills from 51 to 80, this will be a great life improvement, healty for the game and for people who level up different jobs.

Newbie DRK here lvl 63 .... on 3 Dummies : Starting by Spaming unleash + flood until you have no mana is the biggest DPS, then it seems that doing 123 combo + flood give better dps than just spaming unleash.

Maybe SE give us Flood at lvl 30 because we are suppose to use 123 combo + flood as our AOE at low lvl.


I Have War and GNB at lvl 60 too and the aoe DPS of all 3 tank look about the same. So if we get unleash+stalward combo at lvl 45 + flood it will out DPS other tank for sure.

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Originally Posted by Ahrijlaken

Newbie DRK here lvl 63 .... on 3 Dummies : Starting by Spaming unleash + flood until you have no mana is the biggest DPS, then it seems that doing 123 combo + flood give better dps than just spaming unleash.

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Unleash increases in value as the number of mobs increase. You will typically be pulling between two and four packs of trash at a time in dungeons, meaning you'll lose a significant amount of DPS a lot of the time by doing your 123 combo to regen MP.

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Originally Posted by Ahrijlaken

Maybe SE give us Flood at lvl 30 because we are suppose to use 123 combo + flood as our AOE at low lvl.

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SE intended for us to use Unleash for for AoE even at low level.

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Originally Posted by Ahrijlaken

I Have War and GNB at lvl 60 too and the aoe DPS of all 3 tank look about the same. So if we get unleash+stalward combo at lvl 45 + flood it will out DPS other tank for sure.

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You only get to empty your entire MP bar on Flood on the first pull. You probably won't get to use Flood at all on your next pull if your group is being reasonably efficient - or if you do, you should only be getting one. Blood Weapon does not typically compensate for this as well as SE initially intended. Adding in Stalwart Soul would likely cause a disparity in DPS, yes, but not by the amount some people are projecting. There are a number of factors to take into account beyond just the potency of the abilities in question. That said, they probably would none the less need to lower Stalwart Soul's potency and remove its MP restoration. A trait could be introduced at the level where we currently get Stalwart Soul to bump it up to the specs we see it having now.