SMN; How do poison DoTs fit the class?

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Originally Posted by DJMau

Read the flavor text on the actual status ailments sometime. I remember one of the two actively attacking the lungs

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that rly helps vs creatures like stone golems or non organic things ... :D

Shadowbringers spoilers. But if you're adverse to spoilers you need to stay the hell out of current lore discussions.

Bio and Miasma are Darkness-aligned magics in the tradition FF14 follows, in contrast to how Glare and Dia are light-aligned spells.

Darkness, in FF14, however, is also astral-polarized magic, the magic of creations and simulacras. The Ascians use Darkness-aligned magics and teach some of it to beast tribes; the snippets they teach is modern primal summoning.

The reason Summoners use these things, then, is because they're using pure Astral magicks, both of the small sort such as Bio and Fester, and of the larger sort such as Dreadwyrm Trance, and Deathflare. These magicks pull directly from the aether that has pervaded the Source since the Seventh Umbral Calamity, now identified as the Calamity of Darkness, of Astral-polarized aether.

So that's why. Summoners are astral-polarized mages.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Shadowbringers spoilers. But if you're adverse to spoilers you need to stay the hell out of current lore discussions.

Bio and Miasma are Darkness-aligned magics in the tradition FF14 follows, in contrast to how Glare and Dia are light-aligned spells.

Darkness, in FF14, however, is also astral-polarized magic, the magic of creations and simulacras. The Ascians use Darkness-aligned magics and teach some of it to beast tribes; the snippets they teach is modern primal summoning.

The reason Summoners use these things, then, is because they're using pure Astral magicks, both of the small sort such as Bio and Fester, and of the larger sort such as Dreadwyrm Trance, and Deathflare. These magicks pull directly from the aether that has pervaded the Source since the Seventh Umbral Calamity, now identified as the Calamity of Darkness, of Astral-polarized aether.

So that's why. Summoners are astral-polarized mages.

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Or it’s because they copied WoW warlock. Don’t put too much thought into it. The devs didn’t when they rushed creating the job. They’ve even said as much. Yoshi wanted a new job for ARR, and SMN was the most in demand. They really had to rush it

Or just change DoTs for small egi summons which attack over time and provide buffs to the Summoner to increase it's damage?
And make the main summoned Egi deal considerable damage, let's say, have half the potency of Ruin but only attack when Ruin is casted?
That way it'd feel more as a summon class and not a WoW Warlock, which by the way Warlock is one of the most terrible and worst classes in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

What does that have to do with SMN? Or you're saying he's summoning creatures (cancer primals) to dot someone? Lmao.

Next thing you know you'll have SAM casting Fire because the spirit of the katana tells him to.

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Hey man, I can already fire blade beams from my weapon as a SAM.

You can do some really wacky stuff with Aether sometimes since your weapon is a channeling foci for abilities than anything.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

We can hope, but there's a lot of lore they have to be willing to sacrifice, and sacrificing lore is basically a cardinal sin as far as the devs are concerned.

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Well they were willing to do that for AST. Majority of the lore was in the constellations and what they meant as Major Arcana which coincided with the Card that you could draw that had that Major Arcana. With ShB with all the cards having the same effect they threw out the lore of 5 of the Major Arcanas, and thus a hefty chunk of ASTs lore with it.

As for the OT... I think dots fit with SMN as they allow for constant damage while working on getting the summoning rolling. As this is not like past FF games where you had instant summoning.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Or just change DoTs for small egi summons which attack over time and provide buffs to the Summoner to increase it's damage?
And make the main summoned Egi deal considerable damage, let's say, have half the potency of Ruin but only attack when Ruin is casted?
That way it'd feel more as a summon class and not a WoW Warlock, which by the way Warlock is one of the most terrible and worst classes in WoW.

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I wouldn't say that. Before i quit wow i was in the middle of lvling a warlock and i had found out that affliction was top dps for that class with demonology slightly behind. Keep it mind it's something i had found out and i didn't even bother going to 120 since wow is in the worst state it's ever been in. Hence why i quit.

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

I wouldn't say that. Before i quit wow i was in the middle of lvling a warlock and i had found out that affliction was top dps for that class with demonology slightly behind. Keep it mind it's something i had found out and i didn't even bother going to 120 since wow is in the worst state it's ever been in. Hence why i quit.

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Top DPS != being good in playability.
Warlock is horrible to play.

It doesn't. It fits SCH more than SMN which is ironic since they removed a bunch of SCH's dots.

I didn't mind the implement of dots before, but I honestly do not like the way they function now. There's quite a bit of potency loss from not having dots up and it makes for some annoying fights, ie the dungeon boss Cladoselache & Doliodus in Akadaemia Anyder where they keep swapping fairly quickly before you can reapply dots. Or if you have a runner tank who stopped at mobs long enough to apply dots and it looks like they are going to stay but then they start running to grab more stuff.

In FFXI we didn't have poison dots and the pets did a majority of the abilities. More wasn't necessarily better, there were about 100 abilities to track. I get why more egis and/or egi abilities isn't necessarily better. So, overall I don't mind having some busy work outside of pet commands to toggle and dots are ok for that. (I do literally mean some busy work, not everything and the kitchen sink like we have now). I just don't like the current layout with the potency difference for abilities with dots applied vs not applied. I'd like to see that difference decreased to account for issues that we have no control over.

I always really liked the DoTs. I see the point some people are making that it doesn't really fit with the traditional idea of a Summoner, but I think it makes sense and it's an interesting new twist on the idea. I agree the idea of using magic based on the study of medicine, etc. fits SCH a bit more, I'm a little sad they removed Leeches from a lore perspective because I really like the kind of old-timey doctor thing. But I think it fits with SMN too, not just because they have the same basis, but because I could easily imagine summoners developing poison-based magic as something to complement their summoning, just as in terms of gameplay it supplements pet-based skills and so on.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

It doesn't. It fits SCH more than SMN which is ironic since they removed a bunch of SCH's dots.

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I think the thing that ticks most people off with SMN is how in the latest expansions they've been distancing themselves from this DOT SMN (DWT, Deathflare, DB, FBT, DP all Summon related and not DOTs).

And then on 5.0 they just make it so that almost all of SMN's dps is tied to DOTs, and if DOTs aren't applied, then your dps is just almost nil.

It really feels like there were like 5 people designing the class and all of them had different ideas, so they just put everything in it and hoped that would work.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

And then on 5.0 they just make it so that almost all of SMN's dps is tied to DOTs, and if DOTs aren't applied, then your dps is just almost nil.

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I'm sorry but, what? This has literally always been the case.

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Originally Posted by Videra

I'm sorry but, what? This has literally always been the case.

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Sorry, I don't remember RUIN dps being tied to how many dots there were on the target, are you sure? Obviously, the dps rotation was always reliant on dots, but it was not like you lost 50% of your dps if you casted a ruin with no dots.

What I meant is that, while at the same time they were distancing themselves from SMN being a DOT class, in this expansion they went on and introduced another mechanic that makes SMN completely reliant on DOTs. Funny enough, if you have dots at a 100% upkeep on the target, you get mediocre DPS. If you don't have 100% upkeep and cast some ruins with no dots, then you get a lower dps than tanks and healers.

Ok first of all we are both an arcanist and a summoner . This is why we have dots. sure when smn started he was more like warlock but now he isn't that doesn't mean that we should throw them away they are still something from the arcanist part

You CANT compare different iterations of summoner that is the whole point of the series . Lydia uses blm even though she is a summoner. Yuna uses whm even though she is a summoner . Dagger(garnet) uses whm even though she is a summoner . Terra uses blm even though she not only is a summoner but a summon herself. The whole cast of ff13 has a summon along with any other ability . Noctis is the only one who can summon and he is doing magic and sword fighting.

Honestly stop trying to compare each other its the whole thing of the series to not be alike.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Shadowbringers spoilers. But if you're adverse to spoilers you need to stay the hell out of current lore discussions.

Bio and Miasma are Darkness-aligned magics in the tradition FF14 follows, in contrast to how Glare and Dia are light-aligned spells.

Darkness, in FF14, however, is also astral-polarized magic, the magic of creations and simulacras. The Ascians use Darkness-aligned magics and teach some of it to beast tribes; the snippets they teach is modern primal summoning.

The reason Summoners use these things, then, is because they're using pure Astral magicks, both of the small sort such as Bio and Fester, and of the larger sort such as Dreadwyrm Trance, and Deathflare. These magicks pull directly from the aether that has pervaded the Source since the Seventh Umbral Calamity, now identified as the Calamity of Darkness, of Astral-polarized aether.

So that's why. Summoners are astral-polarized mages.

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There that's the reason why arcanist who create pets and further on summoners and scholars have dots it fits lorewise and it was due to this reason that we could get a grasp on summoning entities better . summoner fits 10 times more than scholar does on arcanism because for those who haven't checked the original concept of scholar was that he can't utilise much magic but he could use items who had magic in them better than those who casted magic and also scan for weaknesses. but even though i say that this itteration makes sense cause scholar unlike summoner can't summon as good as him since he can't trance his aether to make demi entities that's why the faeries Don't have devotion or enkindle skills instead they have the faerie gauge which is made from using aetherflow effects to allow th faeries to do more stuff .Scholar also can utilize the aetherflow as is for different effects such as scanning weakness ( stratagem) or increasing defenses.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Ok first of all we are both an arcanist and a summoner . This is why we have dots. sure when smn started he was more like warlock but now he isn't that doesn't mean that we should throw them away they are still something from the arcanist part

You CANT compare different iterations of summoner that is the whole point of the series . Lydia uses blm even though she is a summoner. Yuna uses whm even though she is a summoner . Dagger(garnet) uses whm even though she is a summoner . Terra uses blm even though she not only is a summoner but a summon herself. The whole cast of ff13 has a summon along with any other ability . Noctis is the only one who can summon and he is doing magic and sword fighting.

Honestly stop trying to compare each other its the whole thing of the series to not be alike.

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I agree with most of your points expect for the first one. Most of the jobs are heavily tied to the class. BLM is the best example of this. Thaumaturge learns fire, ice, and lightning based magic. BLM extends on this. All the melee classes are similar in this regard. SMN does not feel like a natural extension of ACN.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I agree with most of your points expect for the first one. Most of the jobs are heavily tied to the class. BLM is the best example of this. Thaumaturge learns fire, ice, and lightning based magic. BLM extends on this. All the melee classes are similar in this regard. SMN does not feel like a natural extension of ACN.

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Because ACN splits into two.

SMN should be more egi summon and egi trance oriented, the DoTs should be replaced by something else later on.

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Originally Posted by Siete

Because ACN splits into two.

SMN should be more egi summon and egi trance oriented, the DoTs should be replaced by something else later on.

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Ok but look at ACN as a whole rather than a section. It's pet was dps based, it's abilities are dps based, it's role is dps. The only healing aspect of ACN is physick and resurrection. SMN is a Pet/DoT based job since 2013 and there is no need to move away from that. DoTs are easy to apply and give you sustain damage overtime so you can focus on other aspects like command Egi and Demi Phase cycles.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Ok but look at ACN as a whole rather than a section. It's pet was dps based, it's abilities are dps based, it's role is dps. The only healing aspect of ACN is physick and resurrection. SMN is a Pet/DoT based job since 2013 and there is no need to move away from that. DoTs are easy to apply and give you sustain damage overtime so you can focus on other aspects like command Egi and Demi Phase cycles.

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But does it apply as an egi/primal power summoner to use common poisons as attacks?

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Originally Posted by Siete

But does it apply as an egi/primal power summoner to use common poisons as attacks?

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Not sure what you mean there but if you are asking me if it makes sense? Sure. Arcanist used Miasma and Bio as offensive attacks along with pet and SMN is an extension of ACN. Arcane is literally defined as "known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric". Does it make sense that Thunder and Aero spell is a DoT yet Verthunder and Veraero aren't? Does it make since Bard use a Bow and Arrow? No because while the jobs my be different some old FF games it works in FFXIV environment. The ultimate question though does this change demise your enjoyment of playing the job? That is a matter of opinions and everyone likes something different. The good news though is that FFXIV provide player with a wide ranges of jobs that play differently. It's more important to find the job you actually enjoy rather than play the one you want to enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Not sure what you mean there but if you are asking me if it makes sense? Sure. Arcanist used Miasma and Bio as offensive attacks along with pet and SMN is an extension of ACN. Arcane is literally defined as "known or understood by very few; mysterious; secret; obscure; esoteric". Does it make sense that Thunder and Aero spell is a DoT yet Verthunder and Veraero aren't? Does it make since Bard use a Bow and Arrow? No because while the jobs my be different some old FF games it works in FFXIV environment. The ultimate question though does this change demise your enjoyment of playing the job? That is a matter of opinions and everyone likes something different. The good news though is that FFXIV provide player with a wide ranges of jobs that play differently. It's more important to find the job you actually enjoy rather than play the one you want to enjoy.

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Thank you finally someone reasonable

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Ok but look at ACN as a whole rather than a section. It's pet was dps based, it's abilities are dps based, it's role is dps. The only healing aspect of ACN is physick and resurrection. SMN is a Pet/DoT based job since 2013 and there is no need to move away from that. DoTs are easy to apply and give you sustain damage overtime so you can focus on other aspects like command Egi and Demi Phase cycles.

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And if you define ACN's core rotation and compare it to a modern day summoner, you would notice that the modern day SMN has downplayed and expunged so much of ACN's core mechanics that ACN is all but orphaned from Summoner now, in terms of expressing Summoner's core job identity, which as of SB is defined around the demi-primals and nothing else.

If you look at mechanics that exemplify the demi side of Summoner, you see it's mostly new mechanics added post-ARR and, especially, refined in SB/ShB. If you look at mechanics that never really exemplified being a Summoner, it's all ACN stuff and things built on to ACN to make ACN busier, but not really fulfilling the Summoner job identity. The egis, aetherflow blowing up DoTs and, of course, the DoTs themselves.

Hell, there isn't a single mechanic of ACN that is mandatory towards demi summons short of the mere existence of an egi being out on the field. A mechanic that can literally be described as a permanent, untargetable, unremovable (outside of SMN death or choice) DoT that the class barely interacts with anymore. It is a pale mockery of the original, horribly implemented Egis, and they could literally be removed and Summoner at a job identity level would feel better for it, not worse.

So if you look at SMN and ACN as a whole, the modern summoner is a job that is bipolar, tied to its old ACN roots of being a DoT/Egi class that explodes its DoTs but with those aspects severely diminished mechanically towards expressing SMN, and the modern day SMN that's focusing the job around the awesome Demi-primals, and the only reason the 2 are relevant to each other is because the devs haven't decided to gut the old ACN mechanics in favor of pushing the modern, more streamlined Demi mechanics primarily. The devs so far lack the will to enact the vision of summoner that they themselves have seen in SB and ShB as expressed by trances summoning demi-primals.

The original core of Summoner is dying a very slow, and very painful death as the class moves towards becoming a "true" FFXIV summoner, and just objectively observing the prominence of mechanics through various expansion cycles paints this loud and clear.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

And if you define ACN's core rotation and compare it to a modern day summoner, you would notice that the modern day SMN has downplayed and expunged so much of ACN's core mechanics that ACN is all but orphaned from Summoner now, in terms of expressing Summoner's core job identity, which as of SB is defined around the demi-primals and nothing else.

If you look at mechanics that exemplify the demi side of Summoner, you see it's mostly new mechanics added post-ARR and, especially, refined in SB/ShB. If you look at mechanics that never really exemplified being a Summoner, it's all ACN stuff and things built on to ACN to make ACN busier, but not really fulfilling the Summoner job identity. The egis, aetherflow blowing up DoTs and, of course, the DoTs themselves.

Hell, there isn't a single mechanic of ACN that is mandatory towards demi summons short of the mere existence of an egi being out on the field. A mechanic that can literally be described as a permanent, untargetable, unremovable (outside of SMN death or choice) DoT that the class barely interacts with anymore. It is a pale mockery of the original, horribly implemented Egis, and they could literally be removed and Summoner at a job identity level would feel better for it, not worse.

So if you look at SMN and ACN as a whole, the modern summoner is a job that is bipolar, tied to its old ACN roots of being a DoT/Egi class that explodes its DoTs but with those aspects severely diminished mechanically towards expressing SMN, and the modern day SMN that's focusing the job around the awesome Demi-primals, and the only reason the 2 are relevant to each other is because the devs haven't decided to gut the old ACN mechanics in favor of pushing the modern, more streamlined Demi mechanics primarily. The devs so far lack the will to enact the vision of summoner that they themselves have seen in SB and ShB as expressed by trances summoning demi-primals.

The original core of Summoner is dying a very slow, and very painful death as the class moves towards becoming a "true" FFXIV summoner, and just objectively observing the prominence of mechanics through various expansion cycles paints this loud and clear.

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Demi summons are still summons a different kind of summon but summons nonetheless. you can see that pheonix just like the egis he has a devotion effect , an enkindle , autos , and 2 spells that are commanded from us. aetherflow and not this knock off we got that is energy drain was literally the reason we could make plays . Trance not only interacts with our ruin spells but also gives us a free refresh on our dots and even a third dot that interacts with our ruins . no matter what your arcanist spells had to be used in order for you to summon . from using aetherflow to trancing the aetherflow into dreadwyrm to summon the demis .The whole journey was how to make better summons meanwhile we learned new ways to utilize the aetherflow that we got from the arcanist and our dots and ruins became more powerful. Even on the playstyle bahamut to do the most damage we had to have aetheflow actions. And now the demis empower our own ruins giving us control of their spells.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

And if you define ACN's core rotation and compare it to a modern day summoner, you would notice that the modern day SMN has downplayed and expunged so much of ACN's core mechanics that ACN is all but orphaned from Summoner now, in terms of expressing Summoner's core job identity, which as of SB is defined around the demi-primals and nothing else.

If you look at mechanics that exemplify the demi side of Summoner, you see it's mostly new mechanics added post-ARR and, especially, refined in SB/ShB. If you look at mechanics that never really exemplified being a Summoner, it's all ACN stuff and things built on to ACN to make ACN busier, but not really fulfilling the Summoner job identity. The egis, aetherflow blowing up DoTs and, of course, the DoTs themselves.

Hell, there isn't a single mechanic of ACN that is mandatory towards demi summons short of the mere existence of an egi being out on the field. A mechanic that can literally be described as a permanent, untargetable, unremovable (outside of SMN death or choice) DoT that the class barely interacts with anymore. It is a pale mockery of the original, horribly implemented Egis, and they could literally be removed and Summoner at a job identity level would feel better for it, not worse.

So if you look at SMN and ACN as a whole, the modern summoner is a job that is bipolar, tied to its old ACN roots of being a DoT/Egi class that explodes its DoTs but with those aspects severely diminished mechanically towards expressing SMN, and the modern day SMN that's focusing the job around the awesome Demi-primals, and the only reason the 2 are relevant to each other is because the devs haven't decided to gut the old ACN mechanics in favor of pushing the modern, more streamlined Demi mechanics primarily. The devs so far lack the will to enact the vision of summoner that they themselves have seen in SB and ShB as expressed by trances summoning demi-primals.

The original core of Summoner is dying a very slow, and very painful death as the class moves towards becoming a "true" FFXIV summoner, and just objectively observing the prominence of mechanics through various expansion cycles paints this loud and clear.

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they even tried to make it more interactive by making the ruins interact with dots further.
Arcanist isn't dieing a slow death you are asking that they kill it . you wanted more control with the egis well here you got them . oh you didn't like aetherflows lockdown here have trance instead . how about more damage on ruins here they interact with dots now. Maybe make the job more streamlined here bahamut doesn wyrmwave on aetherflow abilities now it's worse and the whole thing is more rigid Nothing happened that wasn't asked except one thing demi pheonix and it's the only thing that works properly The devs listen to your feedback it's not summoner who is bipolar it's you who don't know what do you want if you don't like how the summoner iteration is in ff14 lorewise and systemwise play another job im tired of the stupid argument to split arcanist summoner and scholar they fixed the stats problem 2 years ago move on.