Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

HW crafting was slightly difficult when we were still 50 attempting to do level 51 recipes.
The only hard part of ARR crafting was going for the Master 2 books, IIRC. Those tokens were .. interesting.

Being able to 100% everything, from 0, just for being in level-appropriate HQ leveling gear, is a sign that crafting is too easy. We should NEED to have a Great Strides Byregot’s Blessing, from 11 IQ, to have a decent chance at HQ.

I disagree with the idea that (for crafting only) RNG never equals a challenge. Yes, it could. A good crafter, who understood how to use their abilities and how the entire system worked together, could either rise above bad RNG or use good RNG to their advantage. In HW I never used Rath's because it was a completely ridiculous rotation, I was willing to sacrifice some of the guarantee of getting HQ for the time I'd save, and there were multiple instances in my rotation where I had to know how my abilities worked together and what would be affected if I took a certain action (should I use Tricks here or a touch, how many Rapid Synths can I fail before I have to reclaim, etc). I understand it's frustrating to have RNG work against you, but I still rarely failed to get HQ and it felt great if I did manage to HQ something that was hard to get there.

Crafting does feel too easy right now and it felt too easy in Stormblood too. I'm holding out hope that they were serious when they said there would be challenges for the Ishgard restoration.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I disagree with the idea that (for crafting only) RNG never equals a challenge. Yes, it could. A good crafter, who understood how to use their abilities and how the entire system worked together, could either rise above bad RNG or use good RNG to their advantage. In HW I never used Rath's because it was a completely ridiculous rotation, I was willing to sacrifice some of the guarantee of getting HQ for the time I'd save, and there were multiple instances in my rotation where I had to know how my abilities worked together and what would be affected if I took a certain action (should I use Tricks here or a touch, how many Rapid Synths can I fail before I have to reclaim, etc). I understand it's frustrating to have RNG work against you, but I still rarely failed to get HQ and it felt great if I did manage to HQ something that was hard to get there.

Crafting does feel too easy right now and it felt too easy in Stormblood too. I'm holding out hope that they were serious when they said there would be challenges for the Ishgard restoration.

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Yeah, SB added Prudent Touch, which completely changed crafting. As for Ishgard, they should not only give us challenges, but rewards that motivate people to keep grinding it.

Like superior crafter gear/tools. If it’s just glam and titles, that doesn’t motivate any sensible crafter to do Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Yeah, SB added Prudent Touch, which completely changed crafting. As for Ishgard, they should not only give us challenges, but rewards that motivate people to keep grinding it.

Like superior crafter gear/tools. If it’s just glam and titles, that doesn’t motivate any sensible crafter to do Ishgard.

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I guess I'm an insensible crafter then, but I would definitely do Ishgard just for some cool glamour and titles, and I'd wager I'm far from the only one. People can be very vain in this game.

SHB crafting right now is pure white gear. White gear was never hard to make. You can't talk about 'hardcore' until we see what the 1 to 4 star recipes look like. My guess, more of the same. It will boil back to the same thing it boils back to every single expansion. 4 star will require all HQ gear, full pentameld and hours of timed node rotation. If that's your idea of hard or hard core, it will be that. Give it time.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I guess I'm an insensible crafter then, but I would definitely do Ishgard just for some cool glamour and titles, and I'd wager I'm far from the only one. People can be very vain in this game.

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Oh, I didn’t mean to sound rude, I apologize. We all have our reasons, right? haha! I mean, if it’s glam that lets us have big booties like you bunny girls, it’s worth it lol. But it’s unlikely. Which is why I need to speak up about this ongoing issue.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

hardcore crafters

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Those exist?

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Those exist?

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I mean, I craft hundreds of end game gear for all 8 servers on my data Center, have alts at all lvl80 crafts, earn roughly 800M Gil a month, (due to how absurdly easy crafting is now, more like 500 or 600M) and I do it all because it’s fun. I would classify that as “hardcore.”

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

I mean, I craft hundreds of end game gear for all 8 servers on my data Center, have alts at all lvl80 crafts, earn roughly 800M Gil a month, (due to how absurdly easy crafting is now, more like 500 or 600M) and I do it all because it’s fun. I would classify that as “hardcore.”

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This does not even sound remotely like fun. Camping a retainer bell all day...

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

I mean, I craft hundreds of end game gear for all 8 servers on my data Center, have alts at all lvl80 crafts, earn roughly 800M Gil a month, (due to how absurdly easy crafting is now, more like 500 or 600M) and I do it all because it’s fun. I would classify that as “hardcore.”

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to each their own but aiya...... also i don't think we would ever get "superior tools". everything has to be kept accessible. this isn't raiding.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Well, I’m glad someone finally admitted it lol. I wish people would just be honest and say “i dont like old crafting cuz its hard and i like easy crafting” so I appreciate your honesty! :)

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I leveled crafters in ARR.
I leveled crafters in HW.

What turned me away from highend crafting was the timesink around materia melding and desynthesis.
Crafting was NOT difficult by any stretch, yes RNG could screw you sideways but that's just that: RNG. As a player there wasn't much I could do to compensate. hell there was even a web based crafting simulator available, so you could try rotations and stuff w/o sacrificing materials in the process.
Doesn't get much easier than that.

Tedious & time consuming != difficult and most certainly != entertainment for me.

In SB I crafted the more highend stuff because melding my gear became much more feasible with a nice and easy supply via scrip. Esp cheal IV materia made a world of difference in being able to attain the necessary stats w/o grinding my heart out.

The crafting process itself didn't change that much, imho. It was just way easier to kick any RNG influence to the curb.

To reiterate, since you seem to like the truth only the way you want it: crafting was not "too hard". It was "too time consuming" and ultimately not worth the effort. My RL time is limited, I do not like when games deliberately waste it.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I disagree with the idea that (for crafting only) RNG never equals a challenge. Yes, it could. A good crafter, who understood how to use their abilities and how the entire system worked together, could either rise above bad RNG or use good RNG to their advantage.

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Only in a very limited way. Reacting to condition procs and maybe switching to a backup rotation.

In practice, you would just up the ante on HQ materials if your resulting average chance was too low and oftentimes it was not possible to recover once a skill missed 3 times in a row (Dat 80% :D). Then you just finished the item and prayed to RNGsus for HQ. If you knew that 100%ing was impossible for your gear, you just farmed up mats for say 5 crafts and brute forced HQ via RNG gaming (similar to how crafting worked in AION). Neither required any player skill, just time.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

I mean, I craft hundreds of end game gear for all 8 servers on my data Center, have alts at all lvl80 crafts, earn roughly 800M Gil a month, (due to how absurdly easy crafting is now, more like 500 or 600M) and I do it all because it’s fun. I would classify that as “hardcore.”

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Hardcore in no-lifing stuff / dumping time into a video game maybe.. well definitely.
Hardcore in the term of player skill like some ultimate raider? Nope.

Again: I would not be opposed to crafting needing actual player skill to successfully execute (no I don't have any ideas, I'm not a game DEV).
However, RNG crap and soulless grinds can go where the sun doesn't shine, as far as I am concerned.

Are you kidding me? Really? RNG is the worst concept in any genre of gaming and has no challenge or skill involved just "luck".

I despise Rng and drives me insane on gathering nevermind the frustration of getting leveled to do prudent touch.

Easier crafting makes me feel like the effort of gathering is rewarded IMO.

@Granyala

I also made my own rotations that I did not share with anyone, lol. That includes gathering. I enjoy figuring things out for myself, and that was challenging as well. Now, with guaranteed touches not failing, even a 12 year old can come up with an optimal rotation. How can you not admit that it’s a joke?

Last time I checked, mostly adults with a decent education are playing this game. Not children who cannot figure out mechanics.

RNG doesn’t even need to be re introduced. All they have to do is make crafting hard some how. For example, only allowing end game recipes to let you use 6-7 touches and 3 progress moves. That would encourage people to stop spamming Prudent Touch like children, and actually think.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

@Granyala

I also made my own rotations that I did not share with anyone, lol. That includes gathering. I enjoy figuring things out for myself, and that was challenging as well. Now, with guaranteed touches not failing, even a 12 year old can come up with an optimal rotation. How can you not admit that it’s a joke?

Last time I checked, mostly adults with a decent education are playing this game. Not children who cannot figure out mechanics.

RNG doesn’t even need to be re introduced. All they have to do is make crafting hard some how. For example, only allowing end game recipes to let you use 6-7 touches and 3 progress moves. That would encourage people to stop spamming Prudent Touch like children, and actually think.

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And then it gets solved in an hour and shared on the internet.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

@Granyala

I also made my own rotations that I did not share with anyone, lol. That includes gathering. I enjoy figuring things out for myself, and that was challenging as well. Now, with guaranteed touches not failing, even a 12 year old can come up with an optimal rotation. How can you not admit that it’s a joke?

Last time I checked, mostly adults with a decent education are playing this game. Not children who cannot figure out mechanics.

RNG doesn’t even need to be re introduced. All they have to do is make crafting hard some how. For example, only allowing end game recipes to let you use 6-7 touches and 3 progress moves. That would encourage people to stop spamming Prudent Touch like children, and actually think.

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Now this is pretty good idea. If you looking for more higher level challenge. I apologize for going off base with RNG....is just so frustrating chancing HQ item or worse failing a syn and losing HQ mats

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

@Granyala
I also made my own rotations that I did not share with anyone, lol. That includes gathering. I enjoy figuring things out for myself, and that was challenging as well. Now, with guaranteed touches not failing, even a 12 year old can come up with an optimal rotation. How can you not admit that it’s a joke?

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Barring hasty touches, touches were ALWAYS guaranteed once you got Steady Hands II. Even back in ARR.
The point was to craft as little of the RNG infested "hasty" moves as possible and replacing them with guaranteed touches as CP allowed.

The real kicker is that we have so much CP now, we can afford to replace all of the "hasty" moves when it comes to quality and often even in regards to item completion. (though I finished most of my items with Quick Synth 3 b/c lazy)

If you want to re-invent the wheel for yourself: sure, have fun. You don't have to use prudent touch at all if it makes things too "easy" for you. Though odds are that your solution will end up as being less effective compared to the FOTM way.

Regarding your idea: This is an MMO. A few dudes will do the leg work, post guides and 99% of the community will follow these guides because they are FOTM. That's just how things are, be that raiding, crafting, BiS gearing or class rotations. This is how MMO communities work.

All of that being said: I do agree with you that prudent touch feels unbalanced to the point that it makes many a skill superfluous. Increasing the CP cost of the ability would be the easiest way to deter us from spamming it.

Omg people. Saying crafting is to easy with the easy recipes. Seriously wait till the book recipes AND yes Ishgard as well. Asking Square Enix to fix things then saying they won’t fix it is silly.

And yes all the current changes to crafting do in fact indicate that crafting will be more challenging down the road, also you forget one of those new skills is purely rng based. And there have been HEAVY nerfs as well.

Seriously, everyone calm down and wait for the actual hard recipes to come out.

Make it harder? Ok
Rng? What? Hard? NO lol
Rewarding? Ok
Make gear hard to make!? Lol NO this gonna be a hindrance to the savage raider

Maybe make a content specially for crafter competing their rate with crafter glamour as reward will be good... but hey ishgard restoration will come soon!

TLDR i like easy crafting thanks

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Make it harder? Ok
Rng? What? Hard? NO lol
Rewarding? Ok
Make gear hard to make!? Lol NO this gonna be a hindrance to the savage raider

Maybe make a content specially for crafter competing their rate with crafter glamour as reward will be good... but hey ishgard restoration will come soon!

TLDR i like easy crafting thanks

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I and many other crafters I know will not be participating in Ishgard if the rewards for compensation are simple glam items. That does not motivate many people to do it. Now, high stat gear and high stat tools? Sign me up.

Mind telling me why you personally want glam as the rewards? And not high stat gear? That isn’t being fair to the players who enjoy challenges, and being rewarded accordingly from those challenges. Favors in HW were a huge pain, but the favor gear? Worth it. Plus I really liked the design of them!

but high stat gear/tools will just make it even easier to craft. thus defeating the purpose of making things difficult.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

but high stat gear/tools will just make it even easier to craft. thus defeating the purpose of making things difficult.

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They don't actually care about difficulty. They care about having too many people on the mountain with them.

how dare the casual plebs be on the same level as me!

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

They don't actually care about difficulty. They care about having too many people on the mountain with them.

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You shouldn’t be assuming things like this, lol. Why are you so negative? I’m being honest here, not even being rude. Did a hardcore crafter put a bad taste in your mouth in the past or something? There’s really no need to demonize people who enjoy challenges. Plus, what would you suggest since you apparently seem to know all the answers?

Just like how no craft material drop in savage, even if they make a crafter version of savage it should be optional and no effect outside of that content, high stat gear will defeat the challange part which you then you guys will just ask for more and thus making normal crafter unable to make certain stuff because of yours so "challenging reward high stat gear so only i can make things easy"

You start to contradicting yourself...
And glamour is the best reward this game can give, gear get outdated i dont know who you call "we" but i know a hardcore crafter that love glamour more than anything.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

You shouldn’t be assuming things like this, lol. Why are you so negative? I’m being honest here, not even being rude. Did a hardcore crafter put a bad taste in your mouth in the past or something? There’s really no need to demonize people who enjoy challenges. Plus, what would you suggest since you apparently seem to know all the answers?

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I mean, if all you care about is a challenge, you can always set one for yourself in the way you suggested SE does it - by slef-imposing certain limitations, like not using certain skills at all or maybe never letting your IQ-stacks reach more than 5, not using any food or melded gear etc.
If its the challenge and the puzzle you care about, I'm sure you can come up with all sorts of those!
...but thats not the impression I've gotten so far - you seem to care much more about being rewarded for a challenge and having this reward be exclusive and locked behind hardcord-crafting (which seems to translate to "I want crafting to be an RNG-base time-sink").

Maybe I'm a bit special and nitpicky here, but as someone who has always been raiding because I enjoy the challenge first and dont care much about the rewards (aka: I would still be raiding without them just for the sake of testing myself) I have to say that Kabooa seems to be closer to the truth about your motivation than you are yourself. Many of your posts mention how you want the attention of being a mastercrafter back and how there need to be special rewards for crafters as there are for raiders etc. and I need to ask: Why - if the only thing you care about is a challenge that you can set yourself? Is it maybe because at the end of the day you dont enjoy the challenge for itself, but only for the potential attention you can get from beating it?

@Vidu

I would appreciate it if you didn’t put words in my mouth like Kaboo did. I don’t really care to reiterate what I said. You are free to read this thread over again for my actual intentions.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

crafter unable to make certain stuff because of yours so "challenging reward high stat gear so only i can make things easy"

You start to contradicting yourself

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I don’t care to reiterate my arguments to you. Please read this thread again.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

You shouldn’t be assuming things like this, lol. Why are you so negative? I’m being honest here, not even being rude. Did a hardcore crafter put a bad taste in your mouth in the past or something? There’s really no need to demonize people who enjoy challenges. Plus, what would you suggest since you apparently seem to know all the answers?

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That's fair. I apologize.

As for what I would do, without revamping the crafting system, I'd just add special glamours to specialist recipes that had absurd number requirements. NQ grants you a model, HQ grants you a glowy effect unique to said model. Fancy as our outfits can be, sometimes a little bit more sparkle would be appreciated.

The system is too two dimensional to ever have any real difficulty to it, and needs additional facets to actually be challenging.

I might start taking those crafting classes then. Thank you for making crafting easier SE.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

how dare the casual plebs be on the same level as me!

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*How dare people who don't want to invest time or effort be allowed to obtain every bit as much as I do, ruining what I enjoy in the process.

The bigger number win, more casual than hardcore thats why savage got easier same with crafter if you want something to read, its not the thread its the atmosphere...

Savage gear is never better than tomestone gear anyway its just different stat

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

That's fair. I apologize.

As for what I would do, without revamping the crafting system, I'd just add special glamours to specialist recipes that had absurd number requirements. NQ grants you a model, HQ grants you a glowy effect unique to said model. Fancy as our outfits can be, sometimes a little bit more sparkle would be appreciated.

The system is too two dimensional to ever have any real difficulty to it, and needs additional facets to actually be challenging.

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Well, at least we are on the same page now, haha. I’m sure they can come up with a way to make crafting harder. But not only apply it to glam, but end game gear as well. (Notice I said gear, not mats) It is SO rewarding to know you HQ’d a craft after spending so many hours grinding crafting, and learning rotation moves. Especially when the craft is super difficult. :)

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

*How dare people who don't want to invest time or effort be allowed to obtain every bit as much as I do, ruining what I enjoy in the process.

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It’s sad that I have to agree with this statement. Yoshida should really be notified of this thread, come the next live letter. And I personally will not stop until it is answered in a live letter. :)

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

*How dare people who don't want to invest time or effort be allowed to obtain every bit as much as I do, ruining what I enjoy in the process.

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See, it's comments like this where it shows it's not really about difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

See, it's comments like this where it shows it's not really about difficulty.

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I think what Nixxe is trying to say, is that there should be a barrier that separates the two players: the no-life players VS the players that are on the casual side. When there is no barrier, it means the players on the casual side can get the same rewards as the no life players.

That’s usually not how online video games work. When I used to play call of duty a lot, I spent hours and even weeks trying to farm Headshots to get all golden guns. Where I eventually got diamond guns as a compensation. Very rewarding. It showed that the developers appreciate the no life players that really enjoyed their game. That goes for other MMOs as well...can’t say the same for WoW though, lol. Maybe. FPS, TPS, MMOs, they have all had a barrier. But FFXIV for some reason does not.

In FFXIV’s case, Prudent Touch, Preparatory Touch, and Delicate Synthesis....along with no hardcore challenges and rewards...is like telling your no life players to : “get lost, and go somewhere else. we only care for our casual players. you no life players can piss off” basically.

Me personally, I would like to know the FFXIV development team’s reasoning for that. Depending on their answer, I may unfortunately end my subscription. I really loved this game. The simple solution would be to cater to BOTH types of players. Not favor one over the other. We BOTH deserve content and compassion. This “casual vs hardcore” war needs to stop, and can be easily solved with Yoshida listening to us both, instead of silencing one crowd, and listening to only the other.

And that, is what I am trying to argue here.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

See, it's comments like this where it shows it's not really about difficulty.

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I never suggested otherwise. Crafting in this game isn't about difficulty and couldn't really be made to be about difficulty without a drastic overhaul; it's about resource investment, in particular time. I laid out my thoughts on the subject on page 4. Simply put though, putting more time and effort into crafting should give me something to show for it as it has in the past, but SE seems determined to make sure that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

In FFXIV’s case, Prudent Touch, Preparatory Touch, and Delicate Synthesis....along with no hardcore challenges and rewards...is like telling your no life players to : “get lost, and go somewhere else. we only care for our casual players. you no life players can piss off” basically.

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It's a simple matter of what gives the most bang for the buck.

One could make the argument that Savage, Ultimate, and Extremes aren't content consumed by everyone, but they are content that dips its fingers in to drive things in every area. It gives relevancy to gear and consumble crafting which in turn drives gathering, which generates maps, which garners glamour materials, which feeds back into crafting, etc etc.

Using your example specifically, I doubt those diamond guns provided any real advantage (AKA They're Glamours).

And frankly if you come from this angle, I have no truck against it. You want a fancy ass diamond studded saw with automatic teeth realiagnment that you have to grind out 20,000 HQ masterwork items for, by god, I'm all for it. You do you.

I personally wouldn't do it, but then, I'm not the hardcore crafter. And, as long as it's just exclusive glamours, I think you'll find a lot less resistance to this. Be them fancy achievement items, or absurdly numerical crafts, or somethin that you can't macro your way through.

The moment it becomes mechanical though, that's when the gloves come off.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Sounds to me that if they eliminate the macros from the game, that would make crafting hard for people?

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More tedious

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The moment it becomes mechanical though, that's when the gloves come off.

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What's wrong with mechanical advantages in an area of the game where stratification is based entirely on deciding to put effort into it or not? Nobody can be locked out of it unless they choose to be locked out of it.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

What's wrong with mechanical advantages in an area of the game where stratification is based entirely on deciding to put effort into it or not? Nobody can be locked out of it unless they choose to be locked out of it.

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Nobody chooses to have spare time for it. You either have the time, or you don't, and while this isn't an issue if the "advantage" itself exists in its own vacuum each tier, the bigger issue is whether or not it leads to more gatekeeping.

You want your +20 ilvl crafter gear, sure fine, I don't care.

Oh wait, we need that +20 ilvl crafted gear to make X, Y, Z and they aren't -glamour only- items? Then we have a problem.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Nobody chooses to have spare time for it. You either have the time, or you don't, and while this isn't an issue if the "advantage" itself exists in its own vacuum each tier, the bigger issue is whether or not it leads to more gatekeeping.

You want your +20 ilvl crafter gear, sure fine, I don't care.

Oh wait, we need that +20 ilvl crafted gear to make X, Y, Z and they aren't -glamour only- items? Then we have a problem.

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Um... so what? People may not have the spare time for Savage or Ultimate. Does that mean it's not OK to have Savage and Ultimate? Some people may not even have enough time to level to 80. Do we need to get rid of levels? Why should the entire playerbase have to suffer because you can't stand the idea that someone who puts more time and effort into a game may get something you don't? Why should my ability to get something out of the game be limited by your free time? The game should always seek to first and foremost take care of people who actually have the time to play it.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The game should always seek to first and foremost take care of people who actually have the time to play it.

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How much time qualifies for 'having the time to play it'?