Dark Knight follow up thread

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You mean last 8 levels. DRK gets Stalwart Soul is obtained at level 72. And basically what you said Living Shadow... unless your have Delirium up... but then again, those 2 buttons you would generally forget are on your hotbar until they are off cooldown...

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yeah i was mostly talking on single target rotation, aoe doesn't change when you hit lvl 72.

I didn't play HW DRK, so any comparisons to it I will be completely ignorant to. I also don't play PLD or WAR; comments pertaining to DRK being just an edgy WAR will also fall on deaf ears. I can only compare SB and ShB DRK, and I am still working on getting to 80 (currently 73). But anyone who took DRK to max in SB will immediately feel the changes to DRK in ShB. I'll have to chime in again after getting it to max, but right now my observations pertain mostly to the battle system changes.

I am really enjoying most of the changes to DRK, but that does not mean I don't have any issues with it. I can say that I am fully glad that DA is gone. I honestly have no idea how anyone could enjoy this ability as it was in SB. What has seemed to kind of replace it is Bloodspiller/Quietus spam when using Delirium, so my issue isn't really with Quietus or BS, but rather Delirium. I feel this ability should be much more impactful than allowing for free cost of blood abilities. Blood abilities should ALWAYS cost you blood, that is why they are blood abilities. I would much rather Delirium improve the effectiveness of these abilities, or the DRK in some other way. Delirium feels like it is in limbo, and the devs aren't quite sure what to do with it.

I miss the HP siphoning with DA+Abysmal Drain on large packs of mobs. This was very satisfying. I believe this is gone in order to increase healing requirements, so I am ok with it. However, I think that 60s CD can be reduced, or be reduced as a bonus to something like a successful Stalwart Soul combo. In short, I don't think it is a good idea for the devs to take something from DRK that utilizes MP as a resource and change it to an ability with a long CD.

I don't understand the giant nerf to Salted Earth. Someone help me here. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with adding DA potency to everything that previously could be boosted by it. I'm also not a big fan of Blood Weapon. Before it felt like, "Here comes the pain!" Now it just feels like I'm desperate for MP.

All in all, I don't feel like it is slower, or clunkier than it used to be. It is more simple to play now, but that doesn't make it less engaging. Godsend changes for me are taking Grit off of the GCD, the loss of DA, the addition of Arm's Length to role skills, and the new charge system applying to Plunge. These were all things I was asking for DRK prior to ShB in order to improve it (shorter CD in the case of Plunge). The other was either removing MP cost from Dark Passenger, or the CD duration. Flood is basically the latter.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Not really realistic, those numbers shows the highest possible CPM with offensive skills only on about 99% active rate. Its the numbers someone took out from calculator, warrior having 30-31 is his max possible speed.

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You're not listening. The numbers I quoted there are from actual fights not predictions. This is what living breathing humans are doing. I included the fact that they also match theorycrafters' predictions. What was linked are actual in practice CPMs for fights, they just match what people predicted because some theorycrafters know what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you do that, you'll just end with spamming Edge to optimize your DPS. It's no different than the Dark Arts spam.

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In my opinion, Dark Arts in SB felt bad to use because you were putting in twice as much work for WORSE damage than what everyone else got for free, at least with Edge or Flood whenever I press it BAM 10k in an instant.

One thing I loved about SB DRK was how their resources would pool back into one another. You would pull with Abyssal Drain for ranged targets then you would pop Blood Price, which allowed you to gain some MP and Blood. Then you would use your MP to get back HP, when MP was low you would use Blood to gain back MP, if you had no blood then you would hope that TBN popped so you would get back some blood, and you would cycle through this over and over with TBN, DA+Abyssal Drain, and DA+Quietus, it was fun and allowed things to flow smoothly. You were constantly refilling and spending your resources and using your CD when needed in dungeon runs.

ShB you spam your two AoE combo, throw out TBN and hope it breaks and sometimes use Quietus if you have blood, throw out some a Rampart or Arm's Length to help mitigate some damage. Its very boring and things don't flow too well together and with the increase in gear your TBN might not even break so you don't get to use Flood of Shadow to increase your damage and extend your Darkside timer.

For Trial fights, everything is pretty straight forward and played like a slower SB DRK since you have to wait for MP to recover so you could throw out a Edge of Shadow every now and again or make sure your CD were on CD.

I think I figured out why I like GNB, and the first two iterations of DRK; there is a lot of buttons to press to max out DPS(though for Heavensward DRK Dark Arts was need to max out both DPS and and tanking whereas Stormblood DRK was just DPS to max out).


Shadowbringers DRK doesn't have a lot of offensive based cooldowns which explains why it feels EXTREMELY SLOW. It's also probably why I don't like playing PLD or WAR...


And I play on controller using WXHB with most of my buttons set at when you get them by level(Basically muscle memory) and I also started using macros just for some of GNB skills, and I put stances on expanded XHB along with the macros(macros are for when I am offtanking or Gnashing Fang combo).

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I think I figured out why I like GNB, and the first two iterations of DRK; there is a lot of buttons to press to max out DPS(though for Heavensward DRK Dark Arts was need to max out both DPS and and tanking whereas Stormblood DRK was just DPS to max out).


Shadowbringers DRK doesn't have a lot of offensive based cooldowns which explains why it feels EXTREMELY SLOW. It's also probably why I don't like playing PLD or WAR...


And I play on controller using WXHB with most of my buttons set at when you get them by level(Basically muscle memory) and I also started using macros just for some of GNB skills, and I put stances on expanded XHB along with the macros(macros are for when I am offtanking or Gnashing Fang combo).

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But GNB is about as fast as DRK. >.>

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I think I figured out why I like GNB, and the first two iterations of DRK; there is a lot of buttons to press to max out DPS(though for Heavensward DRK Dark Arts was need to max out both DPS and and tanking whereas Stormblood DRK was just DPS to max out).


Shadowbringers DRK doesn't have a lot of offensive based cooldowns which explains why it feels EXTREMELY SLOW. It's also probably why I don't like playing PLD or WAR...


And I play on controller using WXHB with most of my buttons set at when you get them by level(Basically muscle memory) and I also started using macros just for some of GNB skills, and I put stances on expanded XHB along with the macros(macros are for when I am offtanking or Gnashing Fang combo).

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Yeah, if you are talking about all CD that add offensive advantages and not necessarily just damage then the 2 are almost equal.

GNB has 6 oGCD offensive skills:
No Mercy, Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, Bloodfest, Rough Divide, and Continuation

DRK has 7 oGCD offensive skills:
Abyssal Drain, Carve & Spit, Salted Earth, Bloodweapon, Plunge, Delirium, and the Edge/Flood of Shadows (counting these as 1 since you won't use them separately)

You can even match up the CDs to see the buttons/min are almost the same too. The differences are that you will hit Continuation 6 times a min on GNB but you'll hit Edge/Flood 4 times a min and Delirium every 1.5 min on DRK.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But GNB is about as fast as DRK. >.>

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I believe part of that problem is we have less buttons to press but we have to use them more often. Sure it might be(doesn't feel it to me) as fast or APM as GNB, but it's also having to hit Bloodspiller 4-5 times every so often and Edge as well. GNB looks to have more to juggle/cycle through by comparison at least at a glance.

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Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta

Yeah, if you are talking about all CD that add offensive advantages and not necessarily just damage then the 2 are almost equal.

GNB has 6 oGCD offensive skills:
No Mercy, Blasting Zone, Bow Shock, Bloodfest, Rough Divide, and Continuation

DRK has 7 oGCD offensive skills:
Abyssal Drain, Carve & Spit, Salted Earth, Bloodweapon, Plunge, Delirium, and the Edge/Flood of Shadows (counting these as 1 since you won't use them separately)

You can even match up the CDs to see the buttons/min are almost the same too. The differences are that you will hit Continuation 6 times a min on GNB but you'll hit Edge/Flood 4 times a min and Delirium every 1.5 min on DRK.

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Blood Weapon, Salted Earth, Delirium, and Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow do not count...


I'm also not counting No Mercy and Bloodfest...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I believe part of that problem is we have less buttons to press but we have to use them more often. Sure it might be(doesn't feel it to me) as fast or APM as GNB, but it's also having to hit Bloodspiller 4-5 times every so often and Edge as well. GNB looks to have more to juggle/cycle through by comparison at least at a glance.

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And yeah I do like juggling between my GCD combos... over spamming the same 1 GCD 5 times...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Blood Weapon, Salted Earth, Delirium, and Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow do not count...


I'm also not counting No Mercy and Bloodfest...

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Ok I'll bite, why do you not include Edge/Flood and Salted Earth on Drk but do include Bow Shock and Continuation on Gnb? Both SE and BS are oGCD Dots and both Continuation and the Shadow/Darkness skills are oGCD attacks that you will hit over the course of the fight.

Also I don't know why you'd exclude Delirium, Blood Weapon, No Mercy, and Bloodfest. If you'd said Damage based cooldown then at least I would understand why you'd exclude them as they don't directly apply damage. However based on the fact that you said "Offensive based cooldowns", I don't see how anyone could say that these skills are anything other than an Offensive based cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta

Ok I'll bite, why do you not include Edge/Flood and Salted Earth on Drk but do include Bow Shock and Continuation on Gnb? Both SE and BS are oGCD Dots and both Continuation and the Shadow/Darkness skills are oGCD attacks that you will hit over the course of the fight.

Also I don't know why you'd exclude Delirium, Blood Weapon, No Mercy, and Bloodfest. If you'd said Damage based cooldown then at least I would understand why you'd exclude them as they don't directly apply damage. However based on the fact that you said "Offensive based cooldowns", I don't see how anyone could say that these skills are anything other than an Offensive based cooldowns.

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Yeah, I couldn't tell you why I'm not counting Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, as for Salted Earth it's classified as a buff rather than an actual DoT, plus it doesn't any initial damage when you use it... as for excluding Delirium(A.K.A. discount Inner Release) it's buff that lets you spam one button 5 times which is more just as boring as spamming your 1 single target combo for 90 seconds, Blood Weapon just sucks to use now, No Mercy is a decent buff but does not count as an actual attack, and Bloodfest just gives you 2 more cartridges and also does not count as an actual attack...


Also people Are going to confuse Bow Shock with Bloodspiller now, and same with Salted Earth and Souleater(or Square-Enix)... Suck to be the new people who are trying to learn the terminology...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Yeah, I couldn't tell you why I'm not counting Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow, as for Salted Earth it's classified as a buff rather than an actual DoT, plus it doesn't any initial damage when you use it... as for excluding Delirium(A.K.A. discount Inner Release) it's buff that lets you spam one button 5 times which is more just as boring as spamming your 1 single target combo for 90 seconds, Blood Weapon just sucks to use now, No Mercy is a decent buff but does not count as an actual attack, and Bloodfest just gives you 2 more cartridges and also does not count as an actual attack...


Also people Are going to confuse Bow Shock with Bloodspiller now, and same with Salted Earth and Souleater(or Square-Enix)... Suck to be the new people who are trying to learn the terminology...

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I will say that you are the first person I've ever seen referring to SE as a buff rather than a DOT, but you do you on that.

Regarding buffs in general, I mean I don't really get why you'd feel that a offensive buff doesn't equate to an offensive based CD. Additionally just because you feel that it, "sucks to use" doesn't detract from the fact that you are still gonna use it. Especially when you are hitting these "buffs" while attacking, which was my point about your original statement that GNB feels faster cuz you are hitting more offensive based cooldowns. Buffs or Offensive based cooldowns (if you are really wanting to separate the distinction for whatever reason) you are still pressing just a little less than the same number of buttons for Gnb per min as you are for Drk. To me they feel about the same speed as the 1 button every other min isn't really noticable.

On another note, while I do feel that Delirium's current form was a lazy and uninspired choice, I can't help but comment how all 4 tanks have a point or 2 where they are just spamming the same button 5+ times per min due to a buff or some skill letting them do so. Holy Spirit, Fell Cleave, and even Atonement and Continuation fits this. I actually think that you're having to hit these even more per minute than HS/FC. Yet it seems only Drk is really drawing people's ire about doing so.

I wonder if people who "miss Dark Arts spam" realize that you can use Edge of Shadow as an MP spender to do more damage, rather than exclusively using it to refresh your Darkside gauge. You can literally use it like you did Stormblood Dark Arts, except now it does 500 potency instead of 150

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

I wonder if people who "miss Dark Arts spam" realize that you can use Edge of Shadow as an MP spender to do more damage, rather than exclusively using it to refresh your Darkside gauge. You can literally use it like you did Stormblood Dark Arts, except now it does 500 potency instead of 150

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You do realize that it is definitely not the case when you want to max out the damage potential for DRK, right? (Basically playing optimally) You can't play DRK like that if you don't want to be considered a "bad DRK".

Not to mention; Dark Arts costed 2400 MP while you got 1200 MP from Syphon Strike in 4.X. Meaning you'd get another Dark Arts every second SE combo - and I'm not even including Delirium and Blood Weapon, good use of those would always reward you with more Dark Arts to press. Point being, you used it a lot more to break up the monotony of using only the SE combo.

While yes, EoS is he replacement for Dark Arts in a way, because it has such a potency, you have to use it in buff windows to increase your DPS instead of spamming it whenever and that's all there is to that. They also changed the MP cost from 2400 MP to 3000 MP while lowering the MP gain on literally everything. Syphon Strike gives now 600 MP... Granted, you get MP CnS now, also 600 on a 60s CD and the natural MP regen but that sure as hell is nowhere near enough to not only seeing SE combo for quite some time, even IF you spammed EoS.

One would think that because our max MP increased, that'd be the reason why EoS is 3000 MP now but that's obviously not the case. In SB, you had an MP cap of 9480 MP, so you could do 3 DAs back to back, leaving you with another 120 MP needed for another one. in ShB, you're at 10k MP cap and EoS can be casted 3 times as well, but you're at 1k MP after doing so, neglecting the natural MP gain.

To sum it up, they decreased the rate of our new "DA" by increasing the potency and lowering the MP gain making the job much slower than before. Not to mention that BW and Delirium in ShB are both terrible compared what they used to be. Old BW was just superior in every possible way there is.

Did you really get a lot more to break up the monotony of using SE combo, though? Dark Arts didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit harder. Blood Weapon didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit faster. Delirium, for all its underwhelming qualities, at least let's you not Souleater spam. Abyssal Drain now has use outside of trash pulls. Plunge has 2 charges so that's another button you oGCD to press. Can't forget about Living Shadow, which is a sexy move.

What I mean by "you can spam EoS" is that you CAN. You dont want to, just like you didnt want to press Dark Arts at literally every moment you could. Naturally it's not as easy to EoS as it was to Dark Arts for the simple fact that it's way stronger.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Did you really get a lot more to break up the monotony of using SE combo, though? Dark Arts didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit harder. Blood Weapon didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit faster. Delirium, for all its underwhelming qualities, at least let's you not Souleater spam. Abyssal Drain now has use outside of trash pulls. Plunge has 2 charges so that's another button you oGCD to press. Can't forget about Living Shadow, which is a sexy move.

What I mean by "you can spam EoS" is that you CAN. You dont want to, just like you didnt want to press Dark Arts at literally every moment you could. Naturally it's not as easy to EoS as it was to Dark Arts for the simple fact that it's way stronger.

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Ironically I wish I could spam our two new moves a bit more, not as much as SB dark arts, but just a BIT more because they're really cool lol. It would also be awesome if every EoS cast resets the CD on living shadow, I just want to use the skill more.

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

Ironically I wish I could spam our two new moves a bit more, not as much as SB dark arts, but just a BIT more because they're really cool lol. It would also be awesome if every EoS cast resets the CD on living shadow, I just want to use the skill more.

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would be cool, 2 min is an awful long time for a 50 blood spender, but eh.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Did you really get a lot more to break up the monotony of using SE combo, though? Dark Arts didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit harder. Blood Weapon didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit faster. Delirium, for all its underwhelming qualities, at least let's you not Souleater spam. Abyssal Drain now has use outside of trash pulls. Plunge has 2 charges so that's another button you oGCD to press. Can't forget about Living Shadow, which is a sexy move.

What I mean by "you can spam EoS" is that you CAN. You dont want to, just like you didnt want to press Dark Arts at literally every moment you could. Naturally it's not as easy to EoS as it was to Dark Arts for the simple fact that it's way stronger.

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Thats the thing you "can" spam EoS, but then you;ll shoot yourself in the foot sooner or later. Its "safer" in multipack pulls, if BW is available, with flood. Single Target game for DRK just not so great(There, I guess thats the identity they have for DRK-the "dungeon tank") Personally though, DS being as it is, just costs too much, Technically if you look at WAR, or any other DPS with a maintanable damage buff, theres dont cost anything at all. Couldve been a branched combo finisher.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Did you really get a lot more to break up the monotony of using SE combo, though? Dark Arts didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit harder. Blood Weapon didn't do that, it just made SE combo hit faster. Delirium, for all its underwhelming qualities, at least let's you not Souleater spam. Abyssal Drain now has use outside of trash pulls. Plunge has 2 charges so that's another button you oGCD to press. Can't forget about Living Shadow, which is a sexy move.

What I mean by "you can spam EoS" is that you CAN. You dont want to, just like you didnt want to press Dark Arts at literally every moment you could. Naturally it's not as easy to EoS as it was to Dark Arts for the simple fact that it's way stronger.

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For most people it did break up the monotony. A lot of people liked SB DRK, the people that didn't aren't mostly even tank mains. This might be a little off topic, but it really makes me mad that DRK was changed for the sake of the people who didn't like SB DRK. They now like ShB DRK, however for how long. Most will leave DRK soon enough because it's not a DPS in the end of the day. Then only the few people that play tanks all the time and like ShB DRK will be left to play him. There is certainly nothing wrong with liking ShB DRK, but it is incredibly disheartening for the people who religiously played DRK since HW and now just can't like what it is today.

Back to the topic though; yes, DA definitely broke up using SE, but mostly because you always had something to press in between your GCDs. BW just helped with that even more. DRK wen from something around 46 actions per minute to 35 or so. That kinda gives you a good idea why people dislike DRK for the most part - it's so unbelievably slow compared to what it used to be. That has to do with reworked BW, delirium, the MP costs and the MP generation. EoS is cool and all and I sure wouldn't mind it so much if I could use it a lot more. That's why increasing the MP generation and reducing the MP cost for EoS to 25% MP would be great. Would be also neat if they brought back the old BW, the speed was one awesome thing, but the fact that it proc'ed on basic attacks and oGCDs was way way better feeling than it is now. BW and delirium very tight and they don't feel rewarding. It's not like you feel different when you use them, spamming one skill during burst is already WAR's theme anyway.

On the matter of SB delirium, just how was it underwhelming? It gave you an insane amout of MP and some blood via BW. If used correctly, it was a DPS gain while having a longer BW felt great speed wise. And yet I'm hearing that people didn't even have it on their hotbar because they thought it was useless? That tells me that most people didn't even know how DRK worked.

Same goes for LD, for all its faults, not putting it on your hotbar just seems plain stupid to me. Mind you, these things aren't adressed to you personally, but in general. Unless you're one of those offenders.

tl;dr: DRK feels slow and you really only SE to press most of the time with nothing to weave in between.

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Originally Posted by Arsthan

A lot of people liked SB DRK, the people that didn't aren't mostly even tank mains.

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That's a mighty bold statement there . What proof do you have of this assessment or is it just biased conjecture?
Seriously, what is up with the amount of "No true Scotsman" arguments being tossed out there by people that dislike the rework?
We get it, you and some others liked the Stormblood version of DRK and/or dislike the Shadowbringers rework. That's fine, everyone is allowed to have an opinion. But trying to paint those who don't share your opinion as "not true tanks" or "lesser tanks" is ridiculous.
If you want to argue for your position, argue it's merits. Don't try to elevate yourself by excluding your opposition as not being worthy of having a valid opinion.

I raided with all three tanks in Stormblood, and exclusively played DRK up until Sigmascape launched. It was incredibly dull then. Now you have way more tools at your disposal. Abyssal Drain is something to use in raids now, Double Plunge, Living Shadow, Edge of Darkness, higher overall Black blood building (only gaining 10 per Souleater combo in Stormblood was pure ass when WAR gained what, 20? 30?). An actually fantastic burst window.

All this is much better, in my opinion, than just pressing one button between the same 3 GCDs

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

That's a mighty bold statement there . What proof do you have of this assessment or is it just biased conjecture?
Seriously, what is up with the amount of "No true Scotsman" arguments being tossed out there by people that dislike the rework?
We get it, you and some others liked the Stormblood version of DRK and/or dislike the Shadowbringers rework. That's fine, everyone is allowed to have an opinion. But trying to paint those who don't share your opinion as "not true tanks" or "lesser tanks" is ridiculous.
If you want to argue for your position, argue it's merits. Don't try to elevate yourself by excluding your opposition as not being worthy of having a valid opinion.

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well to be fair most ppl that defend current DRK in the forum now didn't even know how SB/HW DRK works or admitelly declare they didn't play it properly bcs they didn't care in the past, the poster boy call effect really bring a lot of ppl like that and then to make arguments without have idea what they talking about.

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Originally Posted by shao32

well to be fair most ppl that defend current DRK in the forum now didn't even know how SB/HW DRK works or admitelly declare they didn't play it properly bcs they didn't care in the past, the poster boy call effect really bring a lot of ppl like that and then to make arguments without have idea what they talking about.

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You are literally responding to someone who played DRK throughout both Heavensward and Stormblood, posted opinions on those iterations on these very forums, and thinks that the Shadowbringers rework is an improvement. There are also a good number of other posters that have been playing DRK and posting about them since DRK was introduced into the game that are also expressing similar sentiment.
These "most people that like the ShB version of DRK didn't play it in HW or SB" and "most people that like the ShB rework weren't/aren't tank mains" statements are conjecture and I have yet to see any discernible proof to validate them as being anywhere near true.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

You are literally responding to someone who played DRK throughout both Heavensward and Stormblood, posted opinions on those iterations on these very forums, and thinks that the Shadowbringers rework is an improvement. There are also a good number of other posters that have been playing DRK and posting about them since DRK was introduced into the game that are also expressing similar sentiment.
These "most people that like the ShB version of DRK didn't play it in HW or SB" and "most people that like the ShB rework weren't/aren't tank mains" statements are conjecture and I have yet to see any discernible proof to validate them as being anywhere near true.

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thats why i say "most" not all of them, i tired of see all day the same ppl spreading false info of old DRK.

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Originally Posted by shao32

thats why i say "most" not all of them.

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You have yet to show proof of it being "most".

I have seen a good mixture of people that played DRK before that like the rework and dislike the rework, just like I have seen a good mixture of people new to the job liking or disliking it. That is also based solely on what we are seeing here on the English forums. What I have seen on other forums such as the Japanese forum, is a mostly positive reception with some feedback and change requests that mirror some of what you see on the English forums. This is also not even taking into account all the players that aren't even on the forums.

Unless proper data was gathered and compiled or the disparity between likes and hates was so drastic that the preference of the playerbase was beyond apparent, it is really impossible to say whether most longterm DRK players like or dislike the rework but based on the spread simply from this forum alone, I would definitely not side with most disliking. From what I have seen it is mainly a small group of very vocal posters repeating themselves in multiple threads that are making up the majority of the representation of disliking the rework on these forums.

If I were to place my bets, I would say that it is not a case of either of those extremes and that it is likely fairly equal in how many like the rework and how many dislike the rework, with the majority of players falling somewhere in-between where they like some aspects of the rework but dislike others, leaving them as being generally okay and accepting of it.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

You have yet to show proof of it being "most".

I have seen a good mixture of people that played DRK before that like the rework and dislike the rework, just like I have seen a good mixture of people new to the job liking or disliking it. That is also based solely on what we are seeing here on the English forums. What I have seen on other forums such as the Japanese forum, is a mostly positive reception with some feedback and change requests that mirror some of what you see on the English forums. This is also not even taking into account all the players that aren't even on the forums.

Unless proper data was gathered and compiled or the disparity between likes and hates was so drastic that the preference of the playerbase was beyond apparent, it is really impossible to say whether most longterm DRK players like or dislike the rework but based on the spread simply from this forum alone, I would definitely not side with most disliking. From what I have seen it is mainly a small group of very vocal posters repeating themselves in multiple threads that are making up the majority of the representation of disliking the rework on these forums.

If I were to place my bets, I would say that it is not a case of either of those extremes and that it is likely fairly equal in how many like the rework and how many dislike the rework, with the majority of players falling somewhere in-between where they like some aspects of the rework but dislike others, leaving them as being generally okay and accepting of it.

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obvously a poll should be done but for 1 old DRK main that like the job like you i see 10 casuals that don't have any idea what they are talking about, the disparity for me is pretty clear, i will only asume a rough 50%-50% like it and dislike it in general, but for my personal experience around 70% that like the job are just ppl that didn't bother with DRK in the past.

saddly you are in the same position.

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Originally Posted by shao32

obvously a poll should be done but for 1 old DRK main that like the job like you i see 10 casuals that don't have any idea what they are talking about, the disparity for me is pretty clear, i will only asume a rough 50%-50% like it and dislike it in general, but for my personal experience around 70% that like the job are just ppl that didn't bother with DRK in the past.

saddly you are in the same position.

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There's already been a poll that I listed and it's not a biased population like the forums it's actual people who gave feedback and enjoy it, hell I enjoy it I just prefer GNB more but I do jump into EX pugs to test DRK out and on Innocence EX it feels pretty good since you'll always have TBN for your co-tank. Design like that (to me anyways) is great I can shield my co-tank and get dmg out of it? Great. I can also Living Dead the tethers in Titania EX and then my WHM Benedicts me? Pretty snazzy.

There's a lot of cheeky things you can do with DRK and while most of the complaints is Delirium, which I can see why but here's the thing about DRK which has nothing to do with casuals or hardcore players it's the general direction of DRK and that's no one, not even the devs have a clue of what they want. There's so many ideas and things being thrown out everyday of class fantasy and ideas where I'd argue that class fantasy has never been stronger, I guess to each their own but I started DRK in HW and after raiding with it I can say that SB is just the worst.

I would like to see the 70% of people that dislike DRK because everyone I've talked to really enjoy the job and love the changes, the only complaints I hear are about Delirium, TBN not gotten sooner, and MP generation other than those complaints I haven't talked to someone in my FC/in game that was like "omg new DRK is so bad" if anything all I've heard is how AST is in a bad spot same with SCH

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Originally Posted by Awful

There's already been a poll that I listed and it's not a biased population like the forums it's actual people who gave feedback and enjoy it, hell I enjoy it I just prefer GNB more but I do jump into EX pugs to test DRK out and on Innocence EX it feels pretty good since you'll always have TBN for your co-tank. Design like that (to me anyways) is great I can shield my co-tank and get dmg out of it? Great. I can also Living Dead the tethers in Titania EX and then my WHM Benedicts me? Pretty snazzy.

There's a lot of cheeky things you can do with DRK and while most of the complaints is Delirium, which I can see why but here's the thing about DRK which has nothing to do with casuals or hardcore players it's the general direction of DRK and that's no one, not even the devs have a clue of what they want. There's so many ideas and things being thrown out everyday of class fantasy and ideas where I'd argue that class fantasy has never been stronger, I guess to each their own but I started DRK in HW and after raiding with it I can say that SB is just the worst.

I would like to see the 70% of people that dislike DRK because everyone I've talked to really enjoy the job and love the changes, the only complaints I hear are about Delirium, TBN not gotten sooner, and MP generation other than those complaints I haven't talked to someone in my FC/in game that was like "omg new DRK is so bad" if anything all I've heard is how AST is in a bad spot same with SCH

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that poll can't show precise results about DRK for the call effect of the expansion, many ppl just jum to the job bcs warrior of darkness, so that poll can't show detail info of HW/SB mains, if they like it or not or they are ok but wish they change things like the ones you say that are the most complains, ect ect.

so that poll show many like the job, ok so how many are just new DRKs? how many did care about the job in the past and not just play WAR until this dark warrior was released? you know we miss all that data and the level of ppl satisfacted about the job is inflated by all this ppl.

so coming to the main topic the rework and the consecuences, i just saw many old DRK mains migrating to GNB not only in the forum but in my FC and the LS of all hispanic FCs of chaos apart of other non spanish speacking friends i have and i non trying to exagerate bcs of all my FC only 1 is ok with the change and the rest DRK mains 7 in total migrate to GNB including me.
this rework come at the cost of the fun of a lot of ppl that love the job before specially in HW but many defend the job and say is a lot of fun with is fine of course but many of then defend it with false info "DRK is super fast now" "delirium and other stuff was useless before" ect ect, so the main question is ¿how many old DRKs mains are being sacrified for this rework getting filled of casuals that "love" the job (not all casuals)? ¿is the old mains opinion who stay with the job and love it for 4 years means nothing now? ¿it's ok tho eat this dark warrior and dealt with it 2 years? i belive the veterans deserve more credit about they opinions that ppl just freely jump to the job now, 4 years of maining DRK count much more that the 2 weeks we have with this version, DRK was my fav job by a large margin and if it wasn't for GNB i would stop tanking complety bcs i dislike a lot the spam gameplay.

note DRK is not bad in terms of performance, it's just a question of gameplay not numbers.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

I raided with all three tanks in Stormblood, and exclusively played DRK up until Sigmascape launched. It was incredibly dull then.

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How was it dull? Aside from spamming Souleater combo until all of your cooldowns were? I actually had to alternate between Power Slash and Souleater combo just so I didn't feel bored, which felt better to do once Power Slash got buffed.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Now you have way more tools at your disposal. Abyssal Drain is something to use in raids now, Double Plunge, Living Shadow, Edge of Darkness, higher overall Black blood building (only gaining 10 per Souleater combo in Stormblood was pure ass when WAR gained what, 20? 30?). An actually fantastic burst window.

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Except The Blackest Night gave 50 Blood when the shield broke, whereas now it's more of a hindrance than of help... also DRK have even less tools to use now... also good to know that you're one of the people asked for more Fell Cleave spam on all tanks...

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

All this is much better, in my opinion, than just pressing one button between the same 3 GCDs

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Oh, you mean like most tanks do now anyways? Let's not forget that when ARR launched PLD had spam 1-2-3 for endgame DPS rotation when all of their cooldowns weren't up, with the occasional Shield Swipe, which a lot of people didn't like back in those days...


I would rather not go back to that era of DPS rotations for the first 50 levels and beyond on tanks, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta

On another note, while I do feel that Delirium's current form was a lazy and uninspired choice, I can't help but comment how all 4 tanks have a point or 2 where they are just spamming the same button 5+ times per min due to a buff or some skill letting them do so. Holy Spirit, Fell Cleave, and even Atonement and Continuation fits this. I actually think that you're having to hit these even more per minute than HS/FC. Yet it seems only Drk is really drawing people's ire about doing so.

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At least Continuation changes to the appropriate attack name when you are using Gnashing Fang Combo, which is surprisingly macro friendly... I might name the macro "Mashing Fang" since that is basically how macro friendly it is... although I think Koji Fox knew someone would make a Gnashing Fang Macro with that name...

Interesting. I'm a bit surprised that it is that nice about working with macros like that. That said, why would you want to use macros for it? Wouldn't it slow up your inputs? I haven't finished leveling it yet but if it is as snappy as Drk then I would hate using macros with it due to the input delays.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Now you have way more tools at your disposal. Abyssal Drain is something to use in raids now, Double Plunge, Living Shadow, Edge of Darkness, higher overall Black blood building (only gaining 10 per Souleater combo in Stormblood was pure ass when WAR gained what, 20? 30?). An actually fantastic burst window.

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Blood weapon needed.
TBN blood nerfed.
Blind removed.
Derlium nerfed/changed.
Blood Price gone.
Fairly certain Carve and Spit nerfed on mana gen.
Mana gen nerfed in general.

Double Plunge and Abssyal Drain being useful are not enough for me to come back to a class I feel is worse now. Oh and thanks for giving us a fancier version of Scrouge(That has to bloody move to keep damaging the boss. Does Fray get double Plunge?)

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

That's a mighty bold statement there . What proof do you have of this assessment or is it just biased conjecture?
Seriously, what is up with the amount of "No true Scotsman" arguments being tossed out there by people that dislike the rework?
We get it, you and some others liked the Stormblood version of DRK and/or dislike the Shadowbringers rework. That's fine, everyone is allowed to have an opinion. But trying to paint those who don't share your opinion as "not true tanks" or "lesser tanks" is ridiculous.
If you want to argue for your position, argue it's merits. Don't try to elevate yourself by excluding your opposition as not being worthy of having a valid opinion.

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That is speaking from experience of playing the game and talking with other people about tanking. While I obviously didn't speak with the whole data center, let alone all data centers, it is still a valid way to collect informations. Also do mind I've never ever told anyone that they are "not true tank mains", that is just what you made up after my rant. I very much support anyone who wants to tank and wants to play DRK, since over time the number of tanks will drop per usual. It is just not a role that most people like. My point was that it is purely ridiculous to alienate some portion of DRK players (dunno how many of us feel this way yet) for the sake of making DRK more accessable. We already had WAR and PLD as the easy tanks to play, now DRK joined them and the "skilled" tank is now GNB - though it's more strict than anything. More than anything however, the people I know from tanking seriously dislike how slow DRK has gotten.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

I raided with all three tanks in Stormblood, and exclusively played DRK up until Sigmascape launched. It was incredibly dull then. Now you have way more tools at your disposal. Abyssal Drain is something to use in raids now, Double Plunge, Living Shadow, Edge of Darkness, higher overall Black blood building (only gaining 10 per Souleater combo in Stormblood was pure ass when WAR gained what, 20? 30?). An actually fantastic burst window.

All this is much better, in my opinion, than just pressing one button between the same 3 GCDs

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That is your opinion and I very much respect that. However new tools don't mean much when you can't use them often. Plunge with charges is awesome, I'll give you that, but the rest? EoS is just a DA that now does direct damage and the usage dropped significantly, plus you need to spam it in a party buff window instead of using it whenever you can. Living Shadow... eeeeh, I just can't say much about this, others have already said more accurate stuff about it than I could - it's just a glorified DoT with a 2 min CD and has no interplayability with anything in your kit, hence a DoT. More blood is neat, since WAR had 30 every Path combo. Abyssal Drain eh... I'd much prefer the AoE rotation DRK had in SB than what we had now, so I'm not a fan of this one bit.

Now the "fantastic burst window" is what drew many WAR players away from him in 4.2 while drawing in new ones. This "burst window" was an incredibly hit or miss change. And to this day, the comunity is very torn about it, some find it awesome, some find it dreadfully boring to spam a single skill. So why would it be any different on DRK? Why did the sustained DPS change to burst? There is literally no reason. If the DPS was a problem, you very much could have increased the damage dealt by auto attacks to balance it out. Though I honestly don't get what you mean with your last line. It's better to not weave between SE almost anything rather than something like it used to be? But you do you.

Do understand that if someone didn't like or didn't care about SB BW, the job wasn't most likely for you anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sancho_Nyanta

Interesting. I'm a bit surprised that it is that nice about working with macros like that. That said, why would you want to use macros for it? Wouldn't it slow up your inputs? I haven't finished leveling it yet but if it is as snappy as Drk then I would hate using macros with it due to the input delays.

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I only generally use the macro when I'm offtank, have no defensives ready to use, or fight requires me to move around the boss like in the first dungeon of Shadowbringers with the last boss of said dungeon.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Blood weapon needed.

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You mean nerfed right...?

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

TBN blood nerfed.

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You definitely meant removed there...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Blind removed.

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And in Stormblood they removed the +20% evasion...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Derlium nerfed/changed.

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Not the first time this happened... certainly won't be the last...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Blood Price gone.

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On one hand; I'm glad it's gone... But the other hand; I wish they reworked it...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Fairly certain Carve and Spit nerfed on mana gen.
Mana gen nerfed in general.

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Oh good, so I'm not the only person who noticed that...

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Double Plunge and Abssyal Drain being useful are not enough for me to come back to a class I feel is worse now. Oh and thanks for giving us a fancier version of Scrouge(That has to bloody move to keep damaging the boss. Does Fray get double Plunge?)

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Basically how I feel about DRK right now...

@Arsthan I do agree that DRK, like GNB, should be for people who are used to tanking and want something different from what their main tank is generally.


And honestly believe that Dark Arts COULD/SHOULD HAVE BEEN the AoE Continuation for DRK, and they could have had Edge of Shadow be like Gnashing Fang(just minus the unique recast for GCD) combos into Syhpon Strike but also procs Flood of Shadow on Dark Arts, Syphon Strike still combos into Soul Eater but would have proced Stalwart Soul, and Souleater procs Abyssal Drain, and they would have kept Dark Passenger that proced Flood of Shadow, which comboed into Queitus, which proced Stalwart Soul, which then comboed into a new target AoE that proced Abyssal Drain.


And they could have kept Power Slash Combo that procs and maintains Darkside(maybe add Dark Dance buff to Spinning Slash but that personal preference right there...)


They could have brought back Shadowskin but it upgrades into The Blackest Night at level 70


Yes they would have to rework or delete Unleash or even make a new AoE combo that procs and maintains Darkside, as well as making a new AoE Blood spender, but I believe it's worth bringing more people who like GNB now, and people who like DRK now, as well as people who like WAR now.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

They could have brought back Shadowskin but it upgrades into The Blackest Night at level 70

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I wish, that would help drk defenses in pre-70 content. Don't know why TBN isn't gained in lower levels, it has spoiled me so much that I feel naked when playing the other tanks besides gnb.

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

I wish, that would help drk defenses in pre-70 content. Don't know why TBN isn't gained in lower levels, it has spoiled me so much that I feel naked when playing the other tanks besides gnb.

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I know right? It's so weird.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You mean nerfed right...?

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I was real tired when I was typing that out. But that point is I feel we lost a lot of stuff or nerfed and what have we gained? Inner Release and a buff to our AoE game which wasn't terrible, like it wasn't Ninja. Also I could have sworn we still had the blind tagged to Dark Passenger for Stormblood. Already losing my memory of what stuff did because it's just straight up gone.

I just feel like I'm not doing anything when I play DRK. Sure I actually might be doing more actions but it's spam with less buttons so it doesn't feel like it. And as much as I loved TBN in Stormblood, this really needs to get nerfed. Look I love it, it's still very good, but if something isn't going to change, we're probably going to just get balanced around TBN going forward.

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Originally Posted by jetfire117

I wish, that would help drk defenses in pre-70 content. Don't know why TBN isn't gained in lower levels, it has spoiled me so much that I feel naked when playing the other tanks besides gnb.

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I'm not sure this is a problem for DRK alone. I've been leveling PLD and finding out in early dungeons "I don't have anything ELSE FOR THIS" just feels bad. Now I haven't tried WAR but this just feels like SE forgetting that new players do actually come into the game and the experience is going to be different based on what changes they do.

I know seeing no Trait bonus for DRK from till like 62 would look real off as a new player.