What is this class design of Dancer?

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Originally Posted by BiffWellington

Thanks! I will definitely have to give it try.

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Also, Dancer doesn't penalize you for mistakes when dancing the same way ninja does with messed up mudras. If you hit the wrong button you just lose 1 second of uptime and then need to be sure to hit the correct one next.

This is good to know, too. Thanks, WaterShield!

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Also, Dancer doesn't penalize you for mistakes when dancing the same way ninja does with messed up mudras. If you hit the wrong button you just lose 1 second of uptime and then need to be sure to hit the correct one next.

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Yeah, the first time I missed a step I just assumed I was gonna eat a huge ninja-esque penalty and just stood there waiting for it, assuming I'd never be able to finish the dance, but was super surprised that I could keep going without being punished! It's a really, really forgiving job, it's great!

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Originally Posted by Atlas-04

Standard finish hits really really hard and I've been told you use it every 30s. Not sure of the math but I'll gladly believe it to play ddr twice as often.

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You do, but I guess I was expecting something a bit more persistent like BRD's SB songs, which had some neat layers to them. I would have loved to combine different dances for different upkeep buffs, for instance.

Obviously as I said elsewhere though the class plays perfectly fine and feels fluid, the above viewpoint is just personal expectations not matching reality. :P

Ooh, I could even make a mistake without having to wait 30-45 seconds to recover from it and get back to doing decent damage? That sounds awesome!

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

I think the procs trigger often enough that dependability won't be a problem.

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On averages you are right but from time to times you will get extreme bad luck / good luck scenarios (like failing all gathering attempts in a row with 95% success rate!). For very competitive people I guessing is not an ideal class, for your regular player the main problem will be finding a spot.

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Originally Posted by BiffWellington

Ooh, I could even make a mistake without having to wait 30-45 seconds to recover from it and get back to doing decent damage? That sounds awesome!

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Yes, is not like ninja at all. Mistakes will cost you damage, but nothing you can't really recover. (Fail, or delay, a trick attack is a big deal. Needing a few steps more to complete a dance, not so much).

PS: You two are clones!

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Originally Posted by Driavna

PS: You two are clones!

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Yeah, right here in this very thread I finally got around to complimenting MistakeNot on his nice-looking character.

His posting style, too... he just cuts straight to the point, politely, and it always makes sense. i like that!

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Originally Posted by Driavna

On averages you are right but from time to times you will get extreme bad luck / good luck scenarios (like failing all gathering attempts in a row with 95% success rate!). For very competitive people I guessing is not an ideal class, for your regular player the main problem will be finding a spot.



Yes, is not like ninja at all. Mistakes will cost you damage, but nothing you can't really recover. (Fail, or delay, a trick attack is a big deal. Needing a few steps more to complete a dance, not so much).

PS: You two are clones!

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I don't agree that it will be that pronounced of an issue. Even should this negatively affect your personal damage more than I anticipate, your raid DPS contribution from dances will still likely be enough to merit a spot in the raid roster.

Imagine using technical step with trick attack. It's basically a guaranteed spread balance every 2 minutes that also hits for 1500 potency (plus your 5% buff from standard step boosting that). This means you will be able to easily align it with every other Trick Attack, which is up every minute. Beyond that you maintain a +5% Damage buff on yourself and one other party member at all times with standard step.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I don't agree that it will be that pronounced of an issue. Even should this negatively affect your personal damage more than I anticipate, your raid DPS contribution from dances will still likely be enough to merit a spot in the raid roster.

Imagine using technical step with trick attack. It's basically a guaranteed spread balance every 2 minutes that also hits for 1500 potency (plus your 5% buff from standard step boosting that). This means you will be able to easily align it with every other Trick Attack, which is up every minute. Beyond that you maintain a +5% Damage buff on yourself and one other party member at all times with standard step.

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I was not talking about the class itself and the merit of having a raid spot, I also aware that SE was smart enough to give them flourish, not decaying feathers and esprit. My line of thinking was the same reason I stopped using bard and move to SAM/NIN, and I not a hardcore raider by any stretch of the imagination, when I was learning BRD I notice how sometimes I totally annihilated the savage dummy and others I was failing by a good chunk (probably one of the reasons barrage grants refulgent arrow now).

For me is not hard to imagine that players with a very competitive mindset will probably not find the three layers of RNG (on top of stats like critical) that attractive. I had a lot of fun levelling the dancer but already notice those moments when nothing procs and is meh :P

Anyway is a good class and I recommend to at least try it.

PS: This is nitpicking I know (and you are right on the rest of the stuff), but the damage buff for dancer is not a real "buff". You are doing the supposed damage when you have it and less if you fail to keep it up, like the old "X" damage vulnerabilities.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

I was not talking about the class itself and the merit of having a raid spot, I also aware that SE was smart enough to give them flourish, not decaying feathers and esprit. My line of thinking was the same reason I stopped using bard and move to SAM/NIN, and I not a hardcore raider by any stretch of the imagination, when I was learning BRD I notice how sometimes I totally annihilated the savage dummy and others I was failing by a good chunk (probably one of the reasons barrage now grant refulgent arrow use).

For me is not hard to imagine that players with a very competitive mindset will probably not find the three layers of RNG (on top of stats like critical) that attractive.

PS: This is nitpicking I know (and you are right on the rest of the stuff), but the damage buff for dancer is not a real "buff". You are doing the supposed damage when you have it and less if you fail to keep it up, like the old "X" damage vulnerabilities.

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I see, so yes I definitely misunderstood what you were originally going for. I don't think it will be difficult to keep up the damage buffs, but I do concede that this is largely dependent on the player (mainly timing of technical step) and others may find it challenging. I cannot see the standard step being difficult though given that it is basically a 2 button mudra that's up every 30 seconds and the buff from it lasts for 1 minute.

It sounds like you are mainly saying that it doesn't do consistent personal damage, which is true. BLM or SAM would be more attractive if that was what someone was looking for.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I'm really curious about upcoming parses of the class, because if you don't hit those 50% proc-chances for the majority of your abilities I reckon your damage output is quite laughable.
The previous MCH iteration also used the 50% proc-chance during your basic rotation to unlock the 2nd and 3rd ability(or rather to massively increase their potency), but now Dancer triples the abilities locked behind a 50% chance.

It is just me, or does both your "No one is forcing you to play it" really mean "Please don't voice your dissent on the forums".

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Hmm, good thing parcing is against the rules. =p

I haven't really tinkered with it, but I actually like the idea of proc based DPS with some depth to it. Reminds me on NIN with the dance mechanic and seems fun.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I see, so yes I definitely misunderstood what you were originally going for. I don't think it will be difficult to keep up the damage buffs, but I do concede that this is largely dependent on the player (mainly timing of technical step) and others may find it challenging. I cannot see the standard step being difficult though given that it is basically a 2 button mudra that's up every 30 seconds and the buff from it lasts for 1 minute.

It sounds like you are mainly saying that it doesn't do consistent personal damage, which is true. BLM or SAM would be more attractive if that was what someone was looking for.

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Oh no, I don't think it's difficult, IMO the class itself is very accessible for everyone. The hard part, and this is true for all, is a proper use of CDs and resources management. Also, by layers of RNG I mean 50% for one proc, then 25% for another and finally something else I don't remember now for Fan III.

I just wanted to clarify this part.

I have a hard time telling if posts like these are serious or if it's just someone being a contrarian for the sake of it. The job may not be your cup of tea personally, but i also highly doubt you've played the job at 80 and most likely dabbled in it on a dummy for a few minutes after unlocking it. Every single person I've talked to that's been playing it has absolutely fallen in love with the job. I personally feel the same.

"Don't like it, don't play it" is just a way of saying "Shut up, your opinion shouldn't matter because I like it". It's the worst argument that can be made about anything. When someone gives feedback, especially in a way that isn't foaming-at-the-mouth nerdrage, telling them "don't like don't play" is just dismissing their concerns and feedback. Thank goodness the devs don't have that attitude.

I quite like dancer, a lot. I leveld it to 70 and doing the story on it, it'll be my first 80. I think the gameplay is very fun, very fluid, animations are great, and it's actually very easy to play - you just need to keep up your buffs. I don't know how amazing it performs, or rather I perform, but the buffs are too crazy to ignore! Group play is very fun! A successfully performed technical step gives you a massive crit.

It’s very RNG focused but with 50% proc rates it shouldn’t be an issue. You can also get bad luck, and you can also get good luck. So sometimes if you’re really lucky the parse will be through the roof.

Ultimately I think the proc rate is high enough to be reasonably reliable.

Dismissing someone's opinion instead of giving out talking points to explain why you enjoy the class is a very easy way to "reply" to someone, but it does not create meaningful discussions. Thread hijacking as well is very poor internet etiquette and shameful behavior.

@ OP, I have not yet played Dancer but maybe I can link my similar experience with another Ranged class : Bard. Bard is very proc-based, as in you killing your Savage dummy depended entirely on your RNG. You hoped to get that sweet Refulgent Arrow, and sometimes RNGesus decided to troll you and give you the Refulgent after you used up your Barrage on Empyrial Arrow. Heck, sometimes during Minuet you could barely fire off one 3-stacked Pitch Perfect, while other times Pitch appeared every 3 seconds. It's RNG, it's a lottery.

Those types of classes are meant to surprise you and make you think on the spot (and also convert you to a RNG worshipper, but that's another story). I find this to be fun. I like being surprised, and I enjoy having to think on the spot if I'll have a Refulgent Arrow ready in the next 13 seconds or if I should just fire off the combo with Empyrial. Heck, it's also fun when everything just lines up perfectly and the procs just keep rolling in.

But I understand it being frustrating as well. It's grating when you fire off the 5th Heavy shot and still not get what you want, or it's frustrating when you have only 1 3-stacked Pitch Perfect to fire off during your entire Minuet window (heck sometimes it's not even a 3 stack, but a 2 stack. I've had that happen a few times). But that's the thing with RNG, it's not consistent. You can get godly amounts of luck for one fight and get nothing you want on the next.

That is my experience with Bard at least, and although it might not completely be Dancer's situation, I hope my experience can provide some insight for the Ranged classes' design.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Wow, lots of toxic "I like it, so who cares about you!" comments. Sad.

I do wonder, will the RNG base of the class hurt it in the long run or cause it to be excluded in favor of non-rng classes? It might be fun, but will dependability be a concern?

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I don’t see the RNG being an issue. BRD was heavily RNG in terms of procs, yet it was meta for the entirety of Stormblood. The deciding factor for DNC will be personal damage based on the potencies of their overall kit plus how much contribution they give to the raid with their utility. However, I feel confident that it will probably be meta because it can buff a single player for the entire duration of an encounter and buff the party every 2 minutes. The only way it couldn’t be is if its level 80 damage is subpar to the point that BRD/MCH do more than DNC’s personal DPS and raid contributions combined.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t see the RNG being an issue. BRD was heavily RNG in terms of procs, yet it was meta for the entirety of Stormblood. The deciding factor for DNC will be personal damage based on the potencies of their overall kit plus how much contribution they give to the raid with their utility. However, I feel confident that it will probably be meta because it can buff a single player for the entire duration of an encounter and buff the party every 2 minutes. The only way it couldn’t be is if its level 80 damage is subpar to the point that BRD/MCH do more than DNC’s personal DPS and raid contributions combined.

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Dancer shares a good amount of damage % if you keep your dance up the whole time (and you should) so roughly 10% (?) total extra damage spread across 2 players at base, technical step, and devilments massive 20% crit/dh boost shared across 2 players. That's just baseline level 70, I only have dancer at level 71 almost 72.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

It is just me, or does both your "No one is forcing you to play it" really mean "Please don't voice your dissent on the forums".

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I took it as, "no one is forcing you to play it".

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I've been messing around with Dancer hitting a dummy and the whole class feels like a way worse MCH in terms of "50% chance to unlock an ability for execution":

• 2 single-target + 2 AoE abilities are always usable, also you can use Standard Dance on CD
• 4 abilities are of the "50% chance to unlock" kind
• 2 abilities are "50% chance to unlock after using a 50% chance to unlock ability"

How is this class any fun?
Pressing the same 4 buttons over and over, hoping that one of the other 4, any then maybe one of the other 2 will unlock.

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congratulations. you just played for a few minutes/looked at the hotbars while lvl60. that's not what it's like when it's actually leveled.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I've been messing around with Dancer hitting a dummy and the whole class feels like a way worse MCH in terms of "50% chance to unlock an ability for execution":

• 2 single-target + 2 AoE abilities are always usable, also you can use Standard Dance on CD
• 4 abilities are of the "50% chance to unlock" kind
• 2 abilities are "50% chance to unlock after using a 50% chance to unlock ability"

How is this class any fun?
Pressing the same 4 buttons over and over, hoping that one of the other 4, any then maybe one of the other 2 will unlock.

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There is (IMO) a good proc rate system (bard), and bad ones like this.

You would be surprised, in practice stuff procs quite often, and you are constantly doing something with the edition of flourish.

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Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1

congratulations. you just played for a few minutes/looked at the hotbars while lvl60. that's not what it's like when it's actually leveled.

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Are you sure, and where's your actual argument?

I just read the traits/future skills: I get Flourish with a 60sec CD to unlock every "50% proc chance" ability, and that's all there is, as the 50% chance stays the same, even at lvl 80.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

You would be surprised, in practice stuff procs quite often, and you are constantly doing something with the edition of flourish.

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Getting DNC to 63 I had plenty of situations where I just pressed 1 2 for Cascade and Fountain over and over, and nothing proc'd, or 3 4 Windmill and Bladeshower.
Then there are times where odds are in my favor and I proc abilities left and right.

It is fun when everything becomes available, but up until that point it's utterly boring being reduced to smash 2 2-button rotations, hoping that you can actually play the class, as the majority of your actual abilities and rotation is locked behind a 50% chance.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

Getting DNC to 63 I had plenty of situations where I just pressed 1 2 for Cascade and Fountain over and over, and nothing proc'd, or 3 4 Windmill and Bladeshower.
Then there are times where odds are in my favor and I proc abilities left and right.

It is fun when everything becomes available, but up until that point it's utterly boring being reduced to smash 2 2-button rotations, hoping that you can actually play the class, as the majority of your actual abilities and rotation is locked behind a 50% chance.

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It is not that simple dancer utilizes all of it's abilities to do damage. Standard finish does damage, and technical finish does massive damage while also increasing party members damage. Utilizing Devilment combined with Flourish gives you some high burst, and at that point I am finding myself with too many abilities to fire off at any given time. Timing flows very well with the class. It probably has, as far as I can tell, some of the best aoe - if not the best - aoe overall in the game.

You can increase your dance partners damage even higher, especially if you have a buddy who you know can utilize damage at the right time - to use their burst when you get your technical finish combined with your devilment. While also utilizing some surprisingly potent group healing as long as you are stacked with you and your partner - plus shield samba.

My guess OP should avoid lotteries at all cost, thats what i think. xD

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

How is this class any fun?

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Well, "fun" is subjective. As some other users pointed, if you're not having any fun, then it isn't for you. This does not necessarily mean there's anything inherently wrong with the class. It just means it doesn't fit your playstyle. Play a different Job.

I personally love dancer. It's super fast paced, and the fact that I feel like i can run around without any care and toss my weapons and dance gives me such a sense of excitement! If you don't like the job... Then don't play it? I, for one, love it!

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

I've been messing around with Dancer hitting a dummy and the whole class feels like a way worse MCH in terms of "50% chance to unlock an ability for execution":

• 2 single-target + 2 AoE abilities are always usable, also you can use Standard Dance on CD
• 4 abilities are of the "50% chance to unlock" kind
• 2 abilities are "50% chance to unlock after using a 50% chance to unlock ability"

How is this class any fun?
Pressing the same 4 buttons over and over, hoping that one of the other 4, any then maybe one of the other 2 will unlock.

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I dunno but I've been having a blast with it and even took the time to level it so I could do MSQ with DNC instead of BRD, which I've mained since I started playing the game ~four years ago :P

Im only 71 but for the moment i'm disappointed

While I also like dancer I feel like i'm not one I got 2 dances i can use every 2 minutes or 30 secondes and when they are on cooldown I have to press 1-2 most of the time.

Also I wanted to be a dancer and therefor the one who support his teammate but at low level I do not have any skill for that.

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Originally Posted by JediFirefly

No one's making you play it.

I've heard nothing but good things about it all day from everyone I've talked to, it's something I don't think I'd enjoy so I'm not going to play it.

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So MCH needs to be redesigned, but for dancer it's "no one's making you play it" ? They gut Bard, and to some extent MCH, so that Dancer is more attractive. Blizzard would be proud.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

So MCH needs to be redesigned, but for dancer it's "no one's making you play it" ? They gut Bard, and to some extent MCH, so that Dancer is more attractive. Blizzard would be proud.

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The RNG factor was NOT why MCH needed to be redesigned. The RNG was perfectly manageable, and if you did your rotation right, it was a non-issue during Wildfire, which is the most important part of the MCH rotation by far. The reason why they had to redesign MCH is because that ever so important Wildfire rotation was EXTREMELY reliant on getting as many attacks in as possible, weaving oGCDs between every GCD as fast as possible. Unless you had perfect latency, which generally meant living in Japan, you'd find you'd be losing attacks during Wildfire because the usage of oGCDs would clip into the time when you should be using a GCD. As such, your damage would inherently be gimped purely because you weren't living next door to the server.

Current MCH still has a very slight amount of this issue, due to the need of weaving in a Ricochet and Gauss Shot so that you don't cap out on those charges, but it is leagues better than it was before, and not even as important as it was before.

DNC does not have those issues *at all*, so the RNG factor just comes down to whether you enjoy it or not. It's still very easy to perform well with the RNG, and you are not inherently gimped for not living next to the server. As such, it does not need to be redesigned, no. Personally, I find it fun, and the RNG serves well to break up the monotony of performing the same keystrokes over and over again. If you don't enjoy it, then... no one is making you play it. Choose a class you DO enjoy.

And for gods sake, stop bringing up WoW/Blizzard just because a thing you don't like exists.

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Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

The RNG factor was NOT why MCH needed to be redesigned. The RNG was perfectly manageable, and if you did your rotation right, it was a non-issue during Wildfire, which is the most important part of the MCH rotation by far. The reason why they had to redesign MCH is because that ever so important Wildfire rotation was EXTREMELY reliant on getting as many attacks in as possible, weaving oGCDs between every GCD as fast as possible. Unless you had perfect latency, which generally meant living in Japan, you'd find you'd be losing attacks during Wildfire because the usage of oGCDs would clip into the time when you should be using a GCD. As such, your damage would inherently be gimped purely because you weren't living next door to the server.

Current MCH still has a very slight amount of this issue, due to the need of weaving in a Ricochet and Gauss Shot so that you don't cap out on those charges, but it is leagues better than it was before, and not even as important as it was before.

DNC does not have those issues *at all*, so the RNG factor just comes down to whether you enjoy it or not. It's still very easy to perform well with the RNG, and you are not inherently gimped for not living next to the server. As such, it does not need to be redesigned, no. Personally, I find it fun, and the RNG serves well to break up the monotony of performing the same keystrokes over and over again. If you don't enjoy it, then... no one is making you play it. Choose a class you DO enjoy.

And for gods sake, stop bringing up WoW/Blizzard just because a thing you don't like exists.

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What a non-response

RNG is what was complained about most.
most of the changes they made had nothing to do with that issue. They could have just changed timings and/or damage and left all the abilities the same. but that has nothing to do with what I said.
NA Data centers are not in Japan.
None of my complaints were about existence.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

What a non-response

RNG is what was complained about most.
most of the changes they made had nothing to do with that issue. They could have just changed timings and/or damage and left all the abilities the same. but that has nothing to do with what I said.
NA Data centers are not in Japan.
None of my complaints were about existence.

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Imagine if you will, a world in which people like different things. Perhaps Dancer isn't the job for you? There are many people (myself included) who enjoy the job.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Imagine if you will, a world in which people like different things. Perhaps Dancer isn't the job for you? There are many people (myself included) who enjoy the job.

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You are not even paying attention. This is not about the existence of Dancer. They are decimating older jobs, so their new one is more attractive.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

You are not even paying attention. This is not about the existence of Dancer. They are decimating older jobs, so their new one is more attractive.

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I've heard nothing but good things about Bard and Machinist. All I've seen from you in this thread is the claim that they have been butchered. Care to enlighten me as to how (provide details)? I tend to dismiss broad statements with no qualifying information.

Bard has lost its more Support-oriented role and is now an upgraded Archer. I've heard many mains simply appalled and very unhappy with the loss of the harp and the class' identity, myself included. A few have abandoned ship and are looking to other classes. I would recommend looking at the Bard threads in the DPS section of the forums.

That being said, I believe Ranged DPS' design is simply a style of play that can be frustrating yet gratifying. I'm curious OP, how would you make Dancer fun to play? Change up the way procs work?

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I've heard nothing but good things about Bard and Machinist. All I've seen from you in this thread is the claim that they have been butchered. Care to enlighten me as to how (provide details). I tend to dismiss broad statements with no qualifying information.

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Foe Requiem, Group effect from Songs , Nature's Minne has double recast, Refresh, Palisade.