So you like it to have actually less buttons to press, less OGCDs and for the most part just spamming your one combo for a whole minute without nothing else to do for a whole minute? With the odd edge of shadows in between that you get maybe every 20 seconds?Quote:
Originally Posted by NealSnow
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06-30-2019, 08:44 PMT-Owl
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06-30-2019, 10:39 PMLegolasT
See when you read these comments you in the forums you see the SAME exacts trolls complaint about DRK like that's all the care about since Heavensward. Shit you could probably name them by name now since it's so apprent that it's the same people and especially when you don't agree and say you like the new DRK. What's really apparent most of these trolls have not played DRK. Example one troll commented that you need to spam Edge and flood until your mp is out SMH no why would you do that it's only there to help keep drk side. Another one said we use only one combo SMH if you tank period you would know NO ONE uses there enmity combo unless your a bad tank I'm sorry the game evolved from that and you can blame WAR 3.0 and 4.0 for that so get with the times.... I am actually playing the job and they worked the timers on the ogcds on purpose the more I play the job the more I understand the rework more and more the Main purpose of edge on flood is to keep darkside spamming that will lead to a dps loss. Not to mention TBN which helps get free blood for else or flood so that's always in your opener for me it's within the first pull.Next managing blackblood which will accumulate alot with the soul eater combo which must not stay full since that will be a dps loss(that statement alone tells you DRK can't be a 123 tank) you are constantly rotating bloodspiller carve and spit and eldge or flood as you unspecified rotation but must be mastered to properly pull off great DPS.
You also have 2 burst windows your delirum which now everyone loves(people I play with that play the job)and blood weapon. The thing I found is that you shouldnt use them together it's is a overall loss for dps In my opinion. The only synergy I am working on is living shadow since that 50 blood and best to used before a delirum burst window.
To summerize trolls will be trolls. For those that like the job they will hate it's the same people.I love the new drk. I love the direction all the tanks are going if I were to rate them in my opinion I would do PLD(easy to play but mitigation is still godly) DRK, WAR tied for me( DPS) and last GNB which is fun for me nice addition. -
06-30-2019, 10:52 PMIgnimortisIf you don't spam Edge/Flood, you're losing DPS. You don't have anything else to spend mana on until TBN, and even then you should always dump mana at any point you're at 6k MP or above. It's free damage, and you earn enough mana even without Blood Weapon/Delirium to throw one EoS/FoS each 20 seconds. The only reason to not spam EoS/FoS is aligning it with Trick Attack's window, and after that's gone, you have some time in which you should still spam EoS/FoS. If you don't have a NIN, then there is pretty much no reason at all to not use EoS when your mana is at 6k or above. If you don't need to TBN (solo content/no shielding necessary/below 70) you just dump mana into EoS always.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
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06-30-2019, 11:11 PMLegolasTOk lets define spamming for a moment. You spam edge or flood until Zero MP let's say now if you play the job you lose darkside because of this spamming what then you just lose 10% buff with darkside and have to wait to bring that back. Hense why I said you don't spam edge or flood you manage it in correlation with your black blood. Another point if you spam edge and flood to 0 you can't do TBN so again another example of a dps loss since it gives you instant edge or flood at no mp loss. Now I won't factor trick attack because besides trail savage there is no content right now to try this out but I'm speaking from experience you should "spam" edge or flood that IS a loss and I am speaking this again from experience not theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignimortis
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06-30-2019, 11:12 PMLegolasT
Shouldn't***
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06-30-2019, 11:34 PMIgnimortisI've done DRK up to 75th level so far. You have to try really, really, really hard on purpose to not have enough MP to keep Darkside up. You open up a fight with double EoS (4k mana left, enough for TBN at any point), and you generate 1400 pretty much in the next 5 seconds (CnS+Syphon Strike+regen tick). Another combo and you have enough for another EoS. If you have to TBN, you keep 3k in reserve (this can be adjusted downwards as long as you're aware of the fight/regen rates and know how much time is left till the next tankbuster). If you don't have to TBN, you can spam to your heart's content, because there is nothing else you can do with MP.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
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07-01-2019, 12:31 AMCirdan-Faust
My observation is that DRK is now modeled after warrior even more than I had originally thought:
- WAR maintains Storms Eye whereas DRK weaves Edge/Flood into their combo.
- Both use Fell Cleave/Bloodspiller when able.
- Inner Release is WAR equivalent of Delirium.
- Infuriate is the WAR equivalent of Blood Weapon
- Upheaval is the WAR equivalent of Carve and Spit.
- Nascent Chaos is the WAR equivalent to Living Shadow.
They are point for point modeled the same with just class flavored flourishes. I would buy the argument that they did this to ease balance and would accept it begrudgingly if they had also changed PLD and GNB to use this model. But since those two classes play significantly differently and could be balanced it seems to me that they were just lazy with the DRK redesign.
At least I personally feel the DRK version of the DRK/WAR pair is the less boring of the two since managing MP and weaving Edge/Flood is more engaging to me than maintaining Storms Eye. But I found 4.0 WAR mind numbing so it's not saying much. -
07-01-2019, 01:20 AMLegolasTExactly what I been saying since media tour and after playing WAR. WAR 5.0 is extremely boring all do is wait for inner realese To then get the more powerful fell cleave that's it! I do plan to fully lvl WAR fully since I'm about done DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirdan-Faust
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07-01-2019, 01:31 AMLegolasTI gurantee you have a dps loss with your whatever calculations. Have you done titiania yet? Did you parse your dps during that fight ? Let's start thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Ignimortis
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07-01-2019, 01:43 AMIgnimortisYes, I did Titania. Didn't parse, since my toaster is already hardlocked to 30 FPS and every little bit helps, but I never lost Darkside (in fact, I have never lost Darkside so far, aside from dying or out of combat downtime), and we didn't have a NIN, so I'm not sure where exactly I could lose DPS concerning MP usage. Kept 3k in reserve for TBNs, anything above that went into EoS. Since the window for reapplication is so generous and the fight doesn't stop for more than 15 seconds, I'm not sure how you could've optimized MP there in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
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07-01-2019, 04:09 AMWhyAmIHere>Agree with me that DRK is good or you're a trollQuote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
Wow. Very strong case you've made.
EDIT::
This is juicy.
>WAR and DRK are basically clones of each otherQuote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
>you agree to the person you've quoted's statement
>you dislike WAR for the same reasons you like DRK
We really must have travelled to another world, because that makes no lick of sense. -
07-01-2019, 05:17 AMEliroth-Kaminari
I would say im quite neutral about what DRK is now.
If i forget what DRK was in ARR then Drk IN shadow is defently improvmenet what it was in Storm.
I wild keep last points of critisism off untill i can dest DPS and some surviviablity in raid.
allso yeh its alot like WAR clone atm what is only salty thing. -
07-01-2019, 05:40 AMBarachim
I'm only level 74 right now. It definitely doesn't feel as engaging as it used to be. For the most part though, I do not hate the skill changes, except for Delirium. It's just boring. It's just spamming Bloodspiller or Quietus 5-7 times in a row. Just kills the fun immediately.
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07-01-2019, 06:35 AMAgnerPeople upset about that are more upset with the loss of good animations than they actually are with the purpose of an emnity combo itself; some would also wish for another combo to switch up what we do and to prevent things from getting visually stale. That much can be ascertained by reading various feedback threads. Personally, I'm tired as hell of the souleater animation by now having played this job since HW launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
How are you coming to understand the rework more? This is basically the same thing we did before, but simplified further (and it was already simple before), slowed down, and then beaten to death. This is a basic thing that could've been understood just by reading the tooltips.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
OK? I know people who are playing the job as well and they don't like the rework. Guess this leaves us at odds, then!Quote:
Originally Posted by LegolasT
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07-01-2019, 06:49 AMTheForceSee man, and if we're getting bored liyerally days after the expansion dropped, how do they expect people to want to stick with the class for all the months or years until the next rework?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachim
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07-01-2019, 07:24 AMWhyAmIHereplease look forward to itQuote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
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07-01-2019, 08:26 AMTheForceWhat is logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
@WhyAmIHere, thanks for taking the time to show just how silly that was and even provide proof lol. But be prepared to hear how you're still somehow wrong about everything and how DRK is top tier and the funnest Tank in the game. -
07-01-2019, 09:00 AMMortex
Drk has the weakest self dmg from all tanks atm and the same utilit as gnb. So now the normal time for trick if I saw that correct in balance discord will be after 15 sec so that’s we’re you want to use all cds and all mana as drk the same with gnb with no mercy every minute . Gnb feels like a nin were you wanna prep for ur Brust phase with catrigdes and then Brust every 60 seconds all you have with a ice break in the middle and blasting some on cd. But yes you have a lot of things you need to keep a eye out for and that’s the reason it’s fun.
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07-01-2019, 05:23 PMLyth
I've finished with the MSQ on DRK and have had the chance to recover with some sleep, so I thought that I'd pop in and share my views.
First, if you're reading this and you haven't finished the MSQ, close the browser and finish the game. It's probably the best storyline that we've had out of any FFXIV expansion to date, and could give at least a couple of the other main FF titles a run for their money.
With regards to DRK: it's surprisingly good.
I do miss the speed buff from Blood Weapon. But let's put that aside for a moment. One of the most important parts of DRK's gameplay is the flow. In Heavensward, at least part of the appeal came from how smoothly each GCD rolled into an oGCD, and vice versa. This at least partially comes down to animation locks. The problem with Dark Arts, as I've said previously, is that it's one of the longer oGCDs due to the animation. Edge and Flood feel much snappier. And as far as potencies are concerned, these might as well be GCDs between your GCDs.
The design of DRK's resource generation has to be built around some sort of balance. Heavensward had a fairly tight balance between Darkside and Syphon. Outside of Blood Weapon, you had a Dark Arts every three combos/20-22 seconds (hence the 2:1 Delirium to DASE ratio).
Stormblood removed Darkside and hoped that Dark Arts would take care of the rest. I think if MP generation stayed the same, you'd have the same gameplay as before, except with a snappier animation. This actually seems surprisingly similar to the rate that we had in Heavensward after factoring in the Darkside MP drain.
One fairly commonly raised point about Delirium in Stormblood was that it didn't really have a whole lot of impact, as far as potency vs. cost was concerned. Was there a more creative way of doing things? Probably. There are only so many ways of doing damage buffs, though. If not Inner Release, it could have been Fight or Flight. Or Wildfire.
If DRK turns out to need a potency boost somewhere, I think the best way of doing it would be to give Bloodspiller/Quietus a small amount of baseline MP generation, and then have Delirium enhance that. I think that they're playing it safe at the moment, though, in order to avoid having any large Stormblood era MP dumps.
Making Blood Weapon proc off of spells is a welcome change. It always seemed strange that we were penalised for having a mix of weaponskills and spells. I wish that they would just merge Skill Speed and Spell Speed, though. I think we're the only tank with different recasts on single target and AoE.
As people correctly surmised, Darkside is our Eye/Goring equivalent. The meter was a smart move, though. Because Darkside is tied to our burst resource, you're going to want to hold on to it. But TA doesn't necessarily happen on the minute in mechanics-heavy fights. Hoarding for too long can be costly, and I suspect that we're going to see more uptime errors here than you think, at lower to mid levels of play. Either way, it's an improvement over Stormblood, where it was just a buff that you clicked off during phase changes for extra MP, for otherwise perfect uptime.
Defensively, DRK is pretty rock solid. The permanent self-heal on Souleater is a welcome addition. Abyssal Drain is a nice way to refill yourself in mass pulls, but I kind of wish that the effect was standardised for single target the same way that Bloodspiller was. TBN feels amazing. I like how there are little damage spikes even in AoE pulls (with some mobs having mini-tankbuster cast bars). The healer feedback that I'm getting is that PLDs and well-played DRKs make for very smooth healing.
TBN also feels vaguely reminiscent of post-2.1 ARR WAR and Inner Beast. Do you go all in now for more burst, or do you hold off for an upcoming tankbuster? This is the sort of mitigation decision making that I can get behind.
My only issue with this is that TBN does depend very much on content tuning, because it's built to break even when the shield breaks. If you're overgeared, that's potentially going to be an issue. Granted, if an attack is hitting you for less than 25% of your health, it probably didn't need to be mitigated with TBN in the first place.
Partial reimbursement might be a solution. I'm not sure.
I do wish that they would copy over the shield gauge from the party bars and make it visible on your character's main HP bar as well. If you could see how much shielding you had left (and how much was due to TBN), it would be pretty handy.
Speaking of UI elements, I wish that they would just make an indicator for your personal and party HP bar which showed exactly how much healing you had left on Living Dead. Just as a funny aside, the NPC trust system doesn't really know how to handle the ability. They just give you enough healing to bring you up a bit and then relaxes as your timer ticks down to your doom.
I had my worries about Living Shadow going into this, but it also turns out to be pretty good in practice. It's quite easy to weave, and there's no real animation lock on the player side. It pops up wherever you were standing when you summoned it, so you can use that 6 second delay to anticipate where you want it to be when it starts attacking.
It may be functionally a dot, but the AoE attacks are, in fact, AoE attacks which hit all targets in range. It's also a dot that can switch targets to another when the original dies. You do need to be careful if the boss is in the middle of a movement heavy phase, though , as you get the most out of it when it keeps its movement to a minimum.
Thankfully, it doesn't feel like a pet at all. I think that they just need to play around with the AI some, especially with regards to re-orientating to target movement.
All in all, I think that this is a much better starting point than Stormblood. It always feels like there's something different happening, without relying on a whack-a-mole mechanic to do so. It's streamlined, but in a surprisingly nuanced way. There are some small tweaks here and there that I'd like to see, but nothing on the scale of last expansion.
We'll have to see how tank dps pans out as people get gear, do more math, and optimise in real content. Hopefully, the damage difference between tanks turns out to be small relative to the gap between tanks and dps. If this is truly the case, I have the ever so slightest suspicion that DRK is going to be a tank that you're going to want to have levelled and practised when the first tier hits.
I'm looking forward to taking GNB for a spin as well. -
07-01-2019, 06:01 PMtherpgfanatic
I agree with you Lyth.
I also agree that some people are exaggerating the changes without having really played DRK post-ShB enough to provide an opinion. -
07-01-2019, 06:31 PMReynhartAnimation could have been reduced if it was an issue. They did it for other skills, including mudras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I'm still only 73 so I don't have the enhanced version, but I feel those skills lack impact in their animation. It doesn't really feel that you're unleashing your Darkside, but more than you're puffing a purple smoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
It could have been Dark Arts where each WS is enhanced but cost a part of your MP. Or, Blood skills could have been tweaked so that unlimited Blood would not result is simply spamming the same skill. For example, a three step 50-Blood Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Yes, Darkside is akin to Eye/Goring, but those two are granted by a full combo. And one complain what saturaiton of SoulEater combo over and over. As I've posted elsewhere, you could have another combo where the finisher would grant/extend Dark Side and keep the Dark Arts skills that would cost some second of Dark Side. It's a mechanic close to DRG in HW, but frankly, I'd be more okay if they copy a DPS gameplay into a tank instead of a tank gameplay into another tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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07-01-2019, 06:32 PMKreyd
What I like about new DRK is, that a lot of the little tweaks we had in SB were removed:
-SE now heals in tank stance.
-Bloodgain is not high in aoe and low in single target anymore.
-Blood Weapon is not tied to off stance.
-Blood Price were removed.
-Sole Survivor were removed.
-We finally got a raid wide mitigation.
-C&S/Dark Passenger double weave were removed.
What I dislike is the stuff that basically everyone is saying.
-MP reg is really low, therefore we are doing less ogcd's and the jobs feels less busy/slower than before.
-Quietus is mediocre at best.
-Dark Mind and Dark Missionary are magic only/pretty weak.
-Abyssal Drain still has the "Top in aoe/flop in single target" thing.
-Living Dead still is "meh".
Most issues I have atm are with TBN and Living Shadow.
TBN is now a 500 potency loose if it not breaks, and 0 potency gain if it does. Therefore and because of it's high MP costs we need to be way more carefully to pop it than we were before.
Living Shadow doesn't add anything special/interesting to our playstyle, and is just a 2min dmg cd. (to be fair, so it is with the lv 80 skills of WAR's and GUN's too) -
07-01-2019, 07:19 PMValicTBN, LD will never change, and that's okay, it's unique. Could make it so you only need to be healed for half your hp maybe but anyways.... Technically GNB's 80 is just an upgraded version of the same ability they get at level 18 that perfectly weaves between GCD's. DRK's.... just doesn't make sense. Quietus doesn't make sense to use for aoe'ing either and feels awkward to pop at points. MAJOR agree on your stance with TBN, I feel that way too. you should NEVER feel afraid to save your teammate because you think you'll be giving up your buff or dps. It jut feels like a game of chance sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreyd
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07-01-2019, 07:42 PMjetfire117Quietus really needs mp regain on every enemy hit instead of one, if they thought it was OP then just make it "reduced MP gained on 3rd,4th, enemy" etc. It's just so bad right now to use because it literally doesn't do anything for you, besides damage of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreyd
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07-01-2019, 08:01 PMTheForce
I appreciate the in depth response. I can tell that you put a lot of effort into, first, making sure that you know what you're talking about, and second, conveying all of your views clearly and coherently. However, I do strongly disagree with your opinion that DRK is an overall good class.
Firstly, I have no doubts that DRK performs sufficiently. I mean, I really hope the devs wouldn't release an update without making sure each and every class was able to clear content as well as all of their counterparts. As I read through your response, I felt like this was the main point you were trying to make, and if it is, then yes I agree with you on it. 5.0 DRK is definitely able to clear content without much hassle (performance-wise). Also, I do agree about DRK's defensive capabilities, they still have pretty good (non-healing) mitigation tools, resulting in their defense being pretty solid.
However, the main issue with this class imo is that the small, albeit existing, amount of depth and choice it had was just butchered. As well as its overall combat and mp regen speed. To me, this results in the class being very, VERY boring and unenjoyable to play. I'm stuck spamming one single target combo, spending my MP on one thing most of the time, popping Delirium to spam the same two moves, and having my "self heal" only usable once a minute.
Whereas in Stormblood (even though it definitely wasn't perfect) I had
c h o i c e.
If I popped Delirium, there were many different things to spend MP on, this engaged me in the gameplay. (The infamous but still innovative) Dark Arts let me pick and choose which skill I wanted to power up depending on the situation and what I just plain felt like doing at the time, TBN breaking would grant me meter which I could then use to activate resource gainers like Delirium or Quietus to net me tons of MP, which would once again, give me choices on how to spend it. And the best part about all of this? There were so many ways to rapidly restore MP that I would never feel like I had to spend more than a few moments desperately trying to get my MP back. The class was constantly interesting, it was always on the move.
And also, I'm sorry but the Level 80 skill is just a big waste of potential imo. It's nice that it does decent damage, but the fact that it has no secondary effect or special perk is so uninteresting. It is truly just a D.O.T. It could've helped you regain MP in some way, acted as another mitigation tool, gave you some sort of buff while it was present, but no...it's a flashy D.O.T that costs half your meter.
So, in short, I agree that DRK's overall performance is satisfactory. But, it's overall gameplay and playstyle is extremely uninspired and very poorly designed...resulting in a class that feels like a chore to play. -
07-01-2019, 08:06 PMTheForceSorry but one thing in particular in your lists really glared out to me. Why are you glad that Sole Survivor is gone? You didn't even get anything to replace it. Having it literally only helped you, it was even buffed to still be effective in boss fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreyd
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07-01-2019, 08:45 PMKreydQuote:
Originally Posted by Valic
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by jetfire117
I dunno...It was a straight gain, but it just somehow tweaked me, that we could never use it to it's full potential in a boss fight and it was just a press on demand like bloodprice. I always thought it would've been cool as an "Places an debuff on an enemy. Everyone hitting that enemy gets HP/MP back." ability. But in the end I just didn't care for it anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
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07-01-2019, 09:19 PMTranquilmelody7Just tweak living dead so Full MP is required to remove the debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
That way we can manage the death debuff on our own, while healers will still have to keep us alive afterwards. -
07-02-2019, 01:49 AMLythThere are plenty of directions that they could have theoretically taken the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Likewise, there are plenty of jobs out there already that are based around strict rotations. PLD is one of them. There's an upfront commitment that you make to learning the steps, but once you have them practised, very little changes.
DRK has always represented the other end of this extreme. It's a resource-driven job. There isn't really a "rotation". There's a set of rules and breakpoints that you use to make decisions on the fly. Locked rotations limit your ability to adapt to variations in resources. If you wanted a more elaborate combo system on DRK, it would have to be something more along the lines of what MNK has, where you can choose from a number of first, second, and third steps. But there's nothing to say that this wouldn't have panned out significantly differently than the present system as far as decision making logic is concerned.
Even in Heavensward, there really was just one dps combo. You never used Souleater without DA. I know that a couple of content creators have fixated on this point, but it demonstrates a near complete ignorance of what makes the job design work. Some people, unfortunately, are better off popularising game knowledge than they are at contributing to it.
I think this is always going to be an issue with jobs like DRK. People look at it from the outside, and say "this can't be that difficult." Actual player performance rarely reflects this, though. In Heavensward, everyone knew what the job was like from the outset because there was a lot of interest in levelling it. In Stormblood, it really wasn't until later in the expansion, when people started to try it out for themselves, that people started to actually recognise that it was still the most complex tank job by a long shot (not that it had much competition, let's be real).
If your goal is to maximise the number of combos you have, PLD is probably more your jam.
Dark Arts, as it was introduced in Heavensward, was an interesting idea. The original function, namely, to augment an attack, was an interesting one. There were still problems, namely, the instant you tie Dark Arts (and MP) to potency, you become limited by whether something is a dps loss or not. DADD and DADM were fun, but you dropped them when you were trying to optimise. Even in a fight like A12S, where using DA on DM could allow you to solo tank more of the fight, it was preferential to just swap and avoid the potency loss altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForce
That's also the reason why PLD has moved to a completely dps neutral gauge.
When Stormblood substituted Dark Arts for Darkside's MP drain, Dark Arts was already dead. There was no 'nuanced' enhancement effect, it was a straight up 2400 MP = 140 potency. Delirium was just plain awful. You didn't even see a net benefit until you had at least 15 seconds of continuous Blood Weapon uptime. Anything less and it was just a reverse TBN on a 120 second (and later 80 second) recast. You were treading water. They could just have easily removed the cost, letting you use that blood towards an extra Bloodspiller in place of an extra DA, and just extend the duration of BW by 8 seconds to produce the same effect.
I'm not sure if this is a level-based issue, but I'm not seeing an issue of not having things to do. It feels like there's always either something else coming off cooldown, or some MP or blood threshold to be adjusted for. Those rare moments where there's a bit of downtime, you're either making decisions about mitigating something with TBN or having to deal with a raidwide. And with three major offensive cooldowns syncing and unsyncing at different times across a four minute period, there's definitely a lot of variations in how things play out.
Pure off-tanking might be a bit different, but if the expectation is that we take an active role in helping our co-tank mitigate, I think we're going to be pretty busy anyways. Generally speaking, if you ever find yourself just waiting around pressing the one combo, there are probably five different things that have come off cooldown without you noticing.
If you liked watching your MP slingshot around while you hammered the DA key between every GCD, you probably won't like this iteration of DRK. That being said, having played all three iterations of the job, this version seems a lot more faithful to the original than Stormblood ever was. -
07-02-2019, 03:28 AMValicCan you imagine being so low on MP and using this and actually having some way to get back to full MP right now? Our MP regain is pretty slow atm so, that'd basically count us out 95% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7
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07-02-2019, 03:39 AMWyndamThat's probably the best comment in this thread right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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07-02-2019, 05:02 AMTintInterestingly in tank stance there were more decisions / priorities for Dark Arts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Carve and Spit for biggest potency buff.
Bloodspiller because the bonus potency wasn't reduced by tank stance.
Souleater for the extra heal.
Syphon Strike when you were overcapping.
Dark Passenger when you were overcapping really hard or for extra burst.
Power Slash for extra enmity.
And of course TBN wich you could use instead of Dark Arts.
I actually loved DRK in tank stance. It was slow and methodical, one combo = one Dark Arts or TBN. And there were these priorities, not just press button for 140 potency.
Wished 5.0 DRK would play more like 4.0 DRK in tank stance... -
07-02-2019, 06:05 AMReynhartSure, but you didn't always use Dark Arts at all, just to make sure you have enough mp to keep Darkside up, so Delirium was an alternative, on top of having a debuff worth keeping up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I'm definitely not a top raider, but since you don't have to think of what combo to use, nor have anything to maintain during fights (since you can refill far more MP than Darkside will require before expiring, MP that are basically always spend to keep Darkside up) nor require any preparation prior to your spam-Bloodspiller phase, I'm pretty much convinced that DRK has become much easier than it ever was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Personally, I think no job should only rely on a single combo over and over, especially since PLD already had that issue in ARR. And DRK is the only tank who only has only one (single target) combo. It wouldn't have been very difficult to keep another one just to maitain a specific (unique) buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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07-02-2019, 03:11 PMLyth
Much like Dragon Kick, 3.x Delirium essentially kept itself up if you were playing the job properly. Outside of BW, you were forced to use Delirium to allow your MP to recover (hence the 2:1 Delirium : DASE ratio).
A popular conceit of people playing combo-focused jobs is that they're making "decisions" about what combo to make. You really aren't. It's a structured rotation, and you either execute it correctly until it becomes muscle memory, or you don't really succeed at playing the job.
124123123
124123123
12?
It's like those IQ test questions: guess what comes next in the sequence? Uh... 6?
I mean, don't get me wrong, this could be incredibly challenging for someone. Gathering jobs are a pretty good alternative. There are combos, but you can spend the next five minutes analysing what your next step is going to be.
You know what? It's gotta be 5. Definitely 5.
Anyone who thinks that any iteration of DRK plays like 2.x PLD has either forgotten how 2.x PLD played, or doesn't have 90% of their buttons mapped.
I think it's perfectly possible to play DRK incredibly poorly this expansion and think that you're doing a reasonable job at it. But that's always been a thing on the job. "I'm pressing the combo butans, it's so easy!" Yes, but your MP and blood are capped, and you have five oGCDs that have been off cooldown for the past 10 seconds and are sitting around doing nothing. Sadly, self-reflection is not a pre-requisite for playing any job.
Combos on DRK are just there as filler. All the decision making comes out of resource management and oGCD usage. If that's not your thing? PLD is for you. If it's sort of your thing? Maybe try WAR/GNB for a bit of both. There's something for everyone. -
07-02-2019, 03:14 PMKabooaI think this is the take away. The job people want to play is available, just not wrapped in the skin they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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07-02-2019, 03:34 PMADVSSDont want to discourage you, but he isnt wrong. And can anyone explain to me WHY WE NEED A TIMER ON THE DS GAUGE FOR LIVING SHADOW? It doesnt refresh, why is it even there?(tells you how long its got left when active) When I got the tool tip upon hitting 80. I was like SERIOUSLY?! Thats literally the most pointless thingQuote:
Originally Posted by currentlemon
Also the illusion of using TBN(which ive had withstand even tank busters in story) to "counter attack" is silly when you realize it costs the same mp to not use TBN and hit them with edge anyway, -
07-02-2019, 04:47 PMReynhartBy doing your filler combo, you generate far enough MP so there's no real management to do there, especially since Blood Weapon is available every time during a full Darkside window. Same for Blood, you don't need to really save it since Delirium will provide all the Blood you need for burst windows. At least in Stormblood, you could keep on blood for a little time if Delirium and Blood weapon were near their CD, or you could use/break TBN to have a surge of Blood for an approaching burst window…Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Now the ressource management is basically "Don't cap your ressources". I'd say that's hardly a decision. Technically, by having Requiescat tied to a nearly full MP gauge, and Oath skills only mitigation skill, PLD has more ressource management and timing to do than DRK.
You're right, but I'd say that if you wanted a job that spam its ressource skills freely during a burst window, WAR was already providing that 2 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Ok, so where is the fast paced tank with skills that actually synergize with each other to achieve great performance ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Or, another question : Who are the people targeted by this new DRK that couldn't find what they wanted in either the old DRK or the other tanks ? -
07-02-2019, 05:12 PMKabooaGunbreaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
I dunno. I haven't gotten to try it extensively yet, but the main issue I see is just a matter of resource tuning, and changing Delirium to something else. -
07-02-2019, 05:20 PMLyth
It depends on what your goals are. Do you just want to keep Darkside up? That's probably simple enough. Do you need to mitigate something with TBN? You could probably just keep a bit in reserve. Are you trying to save up for a burst window?
As far as cooldowns are concerned, there are some additional questions that you need to ask yourself. You may have noticed that you can't enter a combined Delirium/BW window with more than 50 blood. You also can't enter Delirium as LS is coming off cooldown with less than 50 blood. There are a number of little traps that you can run into that force you to cap resources unintentionally.
I'm very curious to see what the APM averages are going to be for the ex primals.
That being said, you're not going to have an epiphany on DRK by simply typing on the forums, any more than you reached an epiphany on why "defensive tanking" didn't catch on in raid content through forum debates. The answer then, as it is now, is to play it yourself and see.
As an analogy:
"He who studies medicine without books sails an uncharted sea, but he who studies medicine without patients does not go to sea at all." -
07-02-2019, 05:30 PMReynhartFor now, I've only unlocked it, not really played it. But I will likely level all tanks to 80, so I'll see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
What bugs, me, if Gunbreaker actually fills that niche, is that past jobs were stripped away of their mechanics so that those can be given to new ones. "Yeah, Machnist doesn't rely on procs anymore, so let's create a Ranged DPS job that rely on procs and call it Dancer"...And the continuation combo already feel like the old Dark Arts in-between to enhance your full combo.
Yes, you ought to keep 3000 if you need TBN once in a while, but that's already what past DRK did. But, back then, breaking the shield during a burst window would give you an additionnal Bloodspiller, or to have instant access to Delirium. It was more than spending 3000 MP to do one move or spending those same 3000 MP to do the same move 5s later with mitigation in-between.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
You'll just delay your window by one GCD, and do the exact same number of Bloodspiller during the burst window anyway. It's not like IR where doing a "naked" Fell Cleave is far less powerful than a Fell Cleave during IR. Also the MP return of Delirium+BW will give you just above an additional Flood/Edge during that burst window, so unless you manage to spend all your MP, it won't make a real difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Not level 80 yet, so didn't experiment it yet. On a sidenote, though, a problem I see with how engaging DRK is is that between lvl70 and lvl79, your single target gameplay doesn't change at all. The only real new skill you gain is Stalwart Soul, which, I admit, makes AoE situation a lot more fun. At least, PLD gets a new rotation at 76 with Atonement on top of an AoE magic phase (that it never had before) with Holy Circle and its gap closer at 74.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I am playing it, and I'm mostly bored by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth