Wedging healers into a pure healing role may have some advantages.

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Originally Posted by Orbus

This is my feeling on playing a healer.
I will always dps when I can, and heal when I must because that is always priority #1 as a dead player has a dps of 0.

But I feel there's a problem with boss encounter design when as a healer I can dps uninterrupted for upwards of 90%+ of a fight (unless someone screws up) because the only thing it challenges the healer on is how many off globals in your disposal.

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Reminds me of my personal favorite case of this...Poor poor Calcabrina, who I fought without ever turning off Cleric Stance.

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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Originally Posted by Anger

I think that when you choose a healing role that should be 75% - 90% of what you're doing. There are DPS jobs that have heals or have healing buffs like mantra. But they don't get to heal the entire raid for prolonged periods of time. Physick is incredibly weak. If the DPS could heal just as strong as a healer in some cases I could see this being fair. But why should a healer do healing and moderately high DPS while a DPS can only really DPS and provide basic/mediocre heals.

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If dps could heal as well as a healer, fights would take 20 years to complete, no thank you.

People like you who are allergic to DPS as a healer on any MMO are the bane of the skill ceiling healers have access to. You don't HAVE to DPS, no one does, report people if they force you to as it's harassment. changing how healing works entirely on the fourth expansion when we have access to level syncing all old content etc, just makes everything in past void and well trash.

The only way I'd accept healer dps being nerfed to oblivion, which its not the potencies have jsut been loaded into the DoT and Single target spell we have... is if DPS roles were given the dps we normally contribute at high level play as a skill ceiling for themselves.

I'm honestly at the point I want to take trust healers over these "I want to heal only" ones if I could. Because at least they seem to spam their dps spells in downtime, how hard is it to just be productive with your time in an mmo which handles its healing in such a predictable way you can easily be efficient.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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This so much, so sick of them all, the changes fix nothing potency wise for our damage near enough. It's just boring. Like I said even trust healers seem more competent than the ones parroting such nonsense. Healing in FF is by far the easiest I've played in any MMO without the DPS side.

following that, let us all just agree that we love making things hard for ourselves (like optimizing GCD as much as possible towards DPS) and that there is not a single commoner replying to posts on these forums. all who reply and create posts here are noblemen\women with at least one world\server first of some savage\ex trial clear (yes, a lot of people love to put even ex clears as a big accomplishment into their search info). what that leaves to me then, who has a world 986573345th clear on Sastasha? =) i'm just a decent healer, who on his career learned that to "be gut" i have to forget about GCD healing. even mentors say that all the time in novice chat. imagine novices coming into that chat and hearing OGCD, GCD, META, WEAVE. maybe 1% of them will ask or research what that means, 99% will pretend they did not see such conversation, because it all sounds intimidating.
as for me, i just finally got fed up about the fact that my keyboard button "1" while playing healer was severely damage due to overuse and needs replacing, while all other buttons are fine. so i stopped healing. i began maining SAM. people wanted DPS? well i'll give it to them now.
looking forward to your "then don't play this game" arguments =D

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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Cute. People are capable of having different opinions regardless of their skill level you know.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

<snip>

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I've been biting my lip so hard on this one. It's depressingly true.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Cute. People are capable of having different opinions regardless of their skill level you know.

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And yet I honestly don't think these people actually understand the ramifications of what they are asking for. 75% healing uptime is up there if not worse worse than God Kefka's burst AoE damage windows. I barely hit 50% doing Neo Exdeath with double WHM. Meanwhile you see a standard of people complaining about The Burn...... It's laughable.

The biggest irony is that frankly, I'd love it if mainstream content actually pushed me that hard all the time. But it won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Cute. People are capable of having different opinions regardless of their skill level you know.

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Yes they can have an opinion, but these changes never affected how they play, they never will, so in essence their points achieve nothing, they removed the skill ceiling because they couldn't reach it, so it's not "cute" she makes a great point, why should they have an opinion if it doesn't affect them at all?

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

Yes they can have an opinion, but these changes never affected how they play, they never will, so in essence their points achieve nothing, they removed the skill ceiling because they couldn't reach it, so it's not "cute" she makes a great point, why should they have an opinion if it doesn't affect them at all?

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Because she's making a bad assumption. I can speak for myself as someone who does do all of the dps/ogcd weaving/optimization/yaddi yadda and I'm still overtly optimistic about the changes. Whm got their extra mobility and even a nuke to help mitigate their dps loss from healing, sch had its rotation streamlined and redundant skills removed, and ast, while its illusion of choice was removed, gained consistency with its rdps contribution.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Because she's making a bad assumption. I can speak for myself as someone who does do all of the dps/ogcd weaving/optimization/yaddi yadda and I'm still overtly optimistic about the changes. Whm got their extra mobility and even a nuke to help mitigate their dps loss from healing, sch had its rotation streamlined and redundant skills removed, and ast, while its illusion of choice was removed, gained consistency with its rdps contribution.

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It's far from a bad assumption IMO, the game strays so far from its roots as a Final Fantasy with each expansion, SCH's skills were far from redundant, WHM using GCD heals, great... it's not like I couldnt slide cast as it was already with how bad the servers are. AST didn't have an illusion of choice, there was a great option and some good ones, they could have even kept the crit/Spellspeed and then had divination as the current AoE balance everyone was using. There was likely many better routes than this, it's like the devs are allergic to fun and innovation, yet addicted to regressive design.

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

it's like the devs are allergic to fun and innovation, yet addicted to regressive design.

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Wow. Just. Wow. I'm sensing quite a bit of projecting here.

I'm not entirely sure that everyone means the same thing by "intensive healing".

I mean, you could quite easily create a fight where players are healing for 90% of the time, yet doing so quite comfortably. There has to be a failure condition, otherwise there is no challenge, and no accomplishment.

When you look at older games which do this, the failure condition is "attrition". Your party generally doesn't die because you don't heal them in time. They don't die because you don't heal them enough. They die because you run out of resources, and then your heals dry up.

It reminds me of the original version of FF1, where your WHM would have like 6 Cure 1s and 2 Cure 2s to use in the entire dungeon. And it wasn't over when you beat the boss. You then had to have some resources left over to climb back out. I still have bad memories of my Fighter and Black Mage clawing their way out of the fire pits of Mount Gulg after defeating Marilith, dragging the shattered husk of my team with them on the long canoe ride back to town.

It's also built for a different pace of game. Think early Warcraft's MP5 gear, rotating your active healers so that they can recover MP, picnic breaks after every pull. It's also much more gear dependent than skill dependent.

In FFXIV, the failure condition is "timing". In that way, it's a bit closer to how healing works in a PvP game against human opponents. The boss isn't trying to wear you down. They just want to burst you into oblivion so that the annoying little healer won't be able to mend the team's wounds back up again. Your team dies when you don't respond in the allocated time window.

So how do you make a fight like this more challenging? It still isn't healing uptime. You have to decrease the time interval for a follow-up attack, and increase the frequency of the bursts.

To be fair, I think tank design is partially to blame here. You have savage fights with maybe five tankbusters. Four of those can be managed with invulns between your two tanks. The remainder gets mitigated with an obscene amount of defensives, because let's be real, there's nothing else that we need to reserve them for.

It also feels like there are less cleaves nowadays. Cleaves are what make your on-demand mitigation moves more interesting, and what spice up the damage patterns for healers. P1 Nael felt oppressive the first time you fought her. It wasn't the Ravensbeaks with their 2 second cast window that did it. It was the unmarked Ravensclaws that hit you for more than half your health which you had to predict. And let's not forget the joys of Sword Oath Sheltron vs. Living Liquid's cleaves. I don't think tanking ever felt so good (outside of A7S, but I'm biased towards fights with lots of positioning and movement).

I can't comment as much on the healing side of things, but I think unless you see a significant nerf to tank invulns, and a change to fight design in favour of more intricate damage patterns, you're probably not going to see a satisfying healing challenge soon. Which is fine for most of the playerbase. I suspect that it's a case of "be careful of what you wish for."

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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Unfortunately, the dev team thinks that by constantly listening to those players, it will increase the healer pool. If anything, I fully anticipate Healing in Need to dominate this expansion; relieving tanks for the first time ever.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Because she's making a bad assumption. I can speak for myself as someone who does do all of the dps/ogcd weaving/optimization/yaddi yadda and I'm still overtly optimistic about the changes. Whm got their extra mobility and even a nuke to help mitigate their dps loss from healing, sch had its rotation streamlined and redundant skills removed, and ast, while its illusion of choice was removed, gained consistency with its rdps contribution.

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And all three healers became extremely simplistic in their design. White Mage received yet more healing—to the point it's currently being speculated optimization will involve burning Lilies regardless if necessary just to get to Misery. If this turns out true, we now have Assize nonsense where you aren't using it as a heal but damage half the time.

Astro, meanwhile, has become completely brain dead. "Illusion" of choice is better than toss out out half your cards on a Samurai and the other half on a Black Mage. If you get your Seals early, enjoy mindlessly Minor Arcana for the next three minutes. Were Boles situational? Yes. But they could have expanded on that instead of making cards basic.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Unfortunately, the dev team thinks that by constantly listening to those players, it will increase the healer pool. If anything, I fully anticipate Healing in Need to dominate this expansion; relieving tanks for the first time ever.



And all three healers became extremely simplistic in their design. White Mage received yet more healing—to the point it's currently being speculated optimization will involve burning Lilies regardless if necessary just to get to Misery. If this turns out true, we now have Assize nonsense where you aren't using it as a heal but damage half the time.

Astro, meanwhile, has become completely brain dead. "Illusion" of choice is better than toss out out half your cards on a Samurai and the other half on a Black Mage. If you get your Seals early, enjoy mindlessly Minor Arcana for the next three minutes. Were Boles situational? Yes. But they could have expanded on that instead of making cards basic.

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Well my apologies that this game isnt catering to your personal needs then.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Wow. Just. Wow. I'm sensing quite a bit of projecting here.

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Interperet how you like, you seem to also do the same. lol

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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Don't worry when we will waste more than 45min for a simple dungeon or will have more difficulties than right now for some HL content, the people you are talking about will agree too that all those changes sucks or will yell on their healers for not helping with dps XD

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Originally Posted by Knoahl

Interperet how you like, you seem to also do the same. lol

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Hey. You're the one calling the game regressive, I'm sorry not every aspect of this game can cater to you.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Hey. You're the one calling the game regressive, I'm sorry not every aspect of this game can cater to you.

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I am calling the game regressive, it's an opinion, the systems are going backwards, healer design is not improving. Thus why so many people aren't happy. "Anyone can have an opinion"... Also you don't need to apologise to me, you're not the development team/combat team lol!

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Well my apologies that this game isnt catering to your personal needs then.

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It isn't catering towards a lot of people. Which is why the healer forums have been on fire. For someone who supposedly optimizes, you certainly don't give off that impression.

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Originally Posted by Anger

I think that when you choose a healing role that should be 75% - 90% of what you're doing.

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We're currently at 20-30% healing... To reach your 75-90%, you'd need a massive increase in raid damage taken outside of your generic dancy mechanics. That is never going to happen.

And even in the case it's going to happen, what glorious gameplay would accompany it? The GCD healing kit of all healers is just as copy-pasted as the DPS toolkit it. You can either spam Broil/Glare/Malefic or Cure/Physik/Benefic or Helios/Succor/Medica.... in the end it's the identical button on all three classes.

The truth is: the GCD toolkit, wether healing or dps, of all healers is atrociously bad designed:

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Wow. Just. Wow. I'm sensing quite a bit of projecting here.

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Really though?

Have you actually looked back at the Job design team's track record since the launch of ARR?

Saying they are allergic to fun is harsh and unfair, I'll agree with that. However, they've consistently lacked innovation compared to the competition and the regressive design comment is highly justified.

Naming truly innovative healer specific abilities that aren't just moar HPS is genuinely pretty tricky. Why do they refuse to give us something to do that isn't merely throwing rocks in our downtime? Why do they consistently strip away healer niches time and time again?

Remember when healers (and SMN) would have organised virus chains to handle Tank busters that were literally a one shot even with tank cooldowns? Why did SE strip healers out of this and put it on the DPS?

Remember when SCH used to be expected to maintain and rotate a pair of (admittedly not that great) haste buffs kind of like FFXI bard songs? Why did this outright get removed?

Remember when we had a small selection of buffs to maintain? I'm not going to pretend that they were fantastic core gameplay elements, but why were they removed? Why didn't SE take that ball and run with it a bit. They've already done the groundwork in PvP and they will have a huge amount of data from this to look at and use as a baseline for PvE changes in a similar vein.

Honestly. This argument and many of the others on this board of late absolutely blow my mind with how incredibly short sighted they are.

I really don't know much clearer it can be. This across the board simplification of healers is NOT going to achieve what so many people here seem to think. We are going to be burst healing faster and harder than ever before (at least SCH and WHM will). Sudo and co can't fix this problem via encounter design. The MP economy of this game simply doesn't support sustained massive incoming damage (Note all the extended healer downtime throughout various top flight encounters. Godka's Trines are a great example of this). Going for a battle of attrition approach seems rather counter productive given WHM's 5.0 toolkit as well, it could happen, but it'll favour WHM in a way not seen since AST's failure in Gordias.

All this screeching about asking for more healing is just a waste of time.

What we need is more options with what we can do with our downtime (aka at least 50% of the time in encounters). Why don't we have a healer that almost entirely eschews personal DPS for buffs? (Or more specifically, why weren't SE courageous enough to push AST into this spot). Why don't we have more utility and synergy with other DPS jobs? Why don't SE take their gloriously unique job system and actually encourage players to make use of it? What's wrong with expecting me to be an AST for one fight, and then WHM to perform best for the next?

I'll tell you exactly why. It's because whilst the demands upon the job design team and expectations of the player base have only ever gone up. That job design team has never been expanded to help cope. Healers have drawn the short straw as a result, time and time again. This is why people like Knoahl are struggling to have any faith in Yoshida's team at this stage.

I hope that helps shed a bit of light on things.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip.

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Said a lot better than I could tbh, yes the allergic comment mainly came from my impatience at them, I just wish they'd have taken the time or a rep of some kind to reply to us all, but we already know that won't happen until live has been out.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Snip.

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Ok. So the Virus change is really the only thing in this entire post that felt painful to remember. I would love to have Virus back as much as the next person. My only guess is that they wanted to make damage mitigation a party wide responsibility as opposed to a niche thing only a few classes could do, and considering they also removed the STR/INT down attacks from pld, drk, and mnk as well. Although... I doubt sch needs it back at this point. Between all its shielding, sacred soil being buffed, and the fact it still has (a nerfed but still there) Fey Covenant effect tied to Fey Illumination. They made up for it.

While the Selene haste cycle was a cool element and idea, it was ultimately streamlined into Fey Wind, and nerfed in favor of giving Selene an AoE/Low Level Esuna option. My guess for its ultimate removal was the combination of button bloat, the fact the haste buff ultimately was a minor contribution outside of absolute min max scenarios, and a nerf to sch's party utility.

Quite frankly this whole mess is a two way street, you either have people like me who's looking at the changes and finding justifications for them. Or you have people like you and that other person crying foul and "double standards" or whatever because you think complexity is what makes a job's identity.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Quite frankly this whole mess is a two way street, you either have people like me who's looking at the changes and finding justifications for them. Or you have people like you and that other person crying foul and "double standards" or whatever because you think complexity is what makes a job's identity.

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I haven't mentioned double standards or anything of the like once tyvm ;)

Again, I really can't stress this enough. My opinions on this subject aren't based on complexity (Look back at my opinions on AST when 4.0 hit). I'm annoyed with SE because they have once again diluted healer gameplay whilst failing to offer the variety that is desired by both the hardcore and casual scenes.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I haven't mentioned double standards or anything of the like once tyvm ;)

Again, I really can't stress this enough. My opinions on this subject aren't based on complexity (Look back at my opinions on AST when 4.0 hit). I'm annoyed with SE because they have once again diluted healer gameplay whilst failing to offer the variety that is desired by both the hardcore and casual scenes.

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I know you personally arent the one making that arguement. And this is where I find myself disagreeing. The variety is there still. WHM still has the strong nuke heals and excellent mp sustain. SCH still has the pets, ogcd heals, and even some mitigation cooldowns and a crit buff. And AST still has its Regen/Shield stance, still provides damage buffs for its group and still has damage mitigation (it's just not a card anymore).

The only thing remotely homogenized was the dps skills. And even then theres still some level of difference, WHM still has higher potency nukes and even got one that's intended to help mitigate their dps loss from gcd healing. SCH still has Ruin II and AoW to allow it to continue dpsing while throwing out its ogcd healing. And AST still has the 1.5 Malefic cast allowing for weaving its card mechanics between casts.

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I probably should have clarified it a bit better.

The healing kits are still pretty decent aside from some questionable holes in AST's kit.

Rather, it's the variety in the gameplay that's sorely lacking. With our oGCDs and cooldowns as they are now, we can either burst a party up to full inside of a couple of GCDs or pile on enough regeneration and mitigation to the point where we don't need to do anything else, and that's assuming a situation where damage is even coming anytime soon.

The downtime between these bursts is something that SE stubbornly refuses to address. It's like there's a really weird disconnect between Sudo's raid team and Sato's job team. I almost wonder if Sato thinks we still stand there spamming Cures between bursts of activity akin to what you'd see in Titan HM. This of course leaves Sudo trying to push the boundaries of what can be done within a scarily sharp framework of limitations, not only within the classes themselves, but even server performance shortfalls (Gordias says hi).

Couldn’t they just throw some buffs for us to use in role skills? Like Bravery/Faith/Haste/etc, then at least we have some GCD buffs to maintain on top of just spamming whatever filler spell. The Bravery spell already exists in Eureka so not like they’d have to do much work lol

I mean, DPS is always going to be the most important aspect of a fight, regardless of role. But at least letting healers contribute in a way that’s different from just normal DPS would make things a bit more interesting in my opinion.

This wouldn’t really address the real issue though. Honestly I’m thinking now the best hope is that next expansion healers will get more unique abilities to differentiate them from each other. Though that’s not exactly a great prospect for those hoping to play now lol

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The downtime between these bursts is something that SE stubbornly refuses to address. It's like there's a really weird disconnect between Sudo's raid team and Sato's job team. I almost wonder if Sato thinks we still stand there spamming Cures between bursts of activity akin to what you'd see in Titan HM. This of course leaves Sudo trying to push the boundaries of what can be done within a scarily sharp framework of limitations, not only within the classes themselves, but even server performance shortfalls (Gordias says hi).

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If I were to hazard a guess. I think part of the reason is they want to make healing as stress free as possible. While I get that mentality, it's caused a massive rift with the community since very few people like the idea of healers just standing around or very occasionally throwing out a DPS spell here or there. Meanwhile, the devs think deviating from this approach will scare away new healers. What I find ironic is instead of being stressed via healing; the job you signed up to play, you're instead told to DPS.

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Originally Posted by SilentVoice

This is why i am thinking making some healer specific mechanics would probably, at least partially, solve the problem. Shinryu Dragonhead is a good prototype of what can make healers busy healing, at least for non casual content

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I actually think Shinryu is a poor example of this, because effectively all you're doing here is having an add that requires Cure as a DPS spell instead of Stone. Target the monster, press the button until the bar goes to the other side. Granted, that's not to say there haven't been good examples: The healer ghost in O5S is a decent example, where it applies a debuff to you that increases damage taken and proceeds to hit both you and itself for massive damage. You need to cleanse the debuff and the goal is then to survive the incoming damage until it kills itself. We could also have more fights like Nidhogg in the Aery where you have to keep an NPC alive, except actually make them take an appreciable amount of damage as well.

Really though, as people have posted since, the GCD healing kit is hardly more interesting than the upcoming Shadowbringers DPS kit. One of the problems with putting in things to make players heal more is it dumbs things down further: Ironically some of the easiest fights for me have been the ones with the most heavy unavoidable damage. You have no option but to just fire off your most potent heals, and the easiest choice to make is when there's no choice at all. If they want to make healers heal more, by all means do so, but it will require a retool of how healers function. Look at tanks and DPS, with their combos and procs and various systems that weave and synergize together. Healer does not have that. The only real "synergy" that we get is how effective healing gives us more time to DPS. Make the healing more complicated, and then raise the incoming unavoidable damage to support someone healing full time. Buuuuut I kinda doubt they'll do that.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Why don't SE take their gloriously unique job system and actually encourage players to make use of it? What's wrong with expecting me to be an AST for one fight, and then WHM to perform best for the next?

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This is a good question. I think going this route would be far more compelling then trying to make every job within the roles have nearly the same capabilities.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

...

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I'm not so sure about this. Newer players are often equally if not more anxious to take on tanking roles, partially because there's an (often incorrect) perception that you must know everything in advance. Historically, when you look at queue times, tanks tend to be in scarce supply. So you would expect a shift towards making tanking more 'stress free.'

That's not really the case, with tanks retaining the largest pool of role actions. Whether it be interrupts, raid mitigation, and even just dps, there's a fairly broad suite of responsibilities laid out there, and no signs of stopping.

The reason why the thought of having to do dps creates so much consternation is because it creates a skill differential. As a tank or healer, it's easy to convince yourself that you're good when you have an insular community of players who look up to you and respect your ability to shepherd them through basic content. Hey, you can clear it. They don't know any better. You don't know any better. But everyone you know seems to think you're good at what you do. So when you come on to an online forum and suddenly discover otherwise, a certain amount of resentment is, well, expected. Down with those dps healers.

I think the reason why this is less of an issue on tanks is because doing dps has invaded our general consciousness. Anyone who might have dissented previously has thankfully already been converted by fire and sword (and if they haven't, let us know!) I'm trying to think of the last time that "should tanks do dps" was a serious conversation that we've had on the forums - I'm thinking maybe late Heavensward? Early Stormblood at the very latest? So from a developer perspective, it's relatively clear what our priorities are. There are still plenty of design problems in the process, but at least they know we want to do damage.

Here, things seem much more ambivalent. Some people seemingly just want to spread flowers and love, others want a mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. I'm not entirely sure why this still seems contentious over here. But if you can get a more unified response, I think you'll at least get closer to what you want.

I do think that more of the buffing/debuffing elements should be shifted over to healers in general, especially since they're here to stay on AST. CC would be interesting as well, if there were actually raid opportunities to use it. I'm not sure why Repose is a role action, but could you have sleepable adds in raids?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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^This. All of this.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Unfortunately, the dev team thinks that by constantly listening to those players, it will increase the healer pool. If anything, I fully anticipate Healing in Need to dominate this expansion; relieving tanks for the first time ever.

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Agreed. And the healers that do queue up will most likely be the bads who stand there doing no DPS at all and still let people die.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Agreed. And the healers that do queue up will most likely be the bads who stand there doing no DPS at all and still let people die.

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There is a part of me that would enjoy the sheer potential for passive-aggression in RPing a Sylphie, but I try to leave that sort of attitude for activities intended to be competitive.

That said... I always did like spellcasters in FFT. Maybe my Stone IV needs a quote macro...

Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
(Luscious Locks@Balmung) is that really necessary?
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

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Originally Posted by Toystore

The usual

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Having a poorly implemented pure healer in a game environment that doesn't accommodate pure healers isn't a fix though...

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Originally Posted by Toystore

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

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This is FFXIV. Not any other MMO. Just because other MMOs do things one way doesn’t mean this game also has to do them that way. They don’t all have to follow some common formula for playstyle, and I actually quite like FFXIV’s playstyle for healers. I have since I started in early Heavensward.

What’s wrong with having a hybrid? There’s not enough outgoing damage in this game to warrant 80~90% healing. Not even in Savages and Ultimates—Ultimate, at most, has maybe 50% healing uptime if you’re playing super safe and overhealing. The damage is too scripted and spaced out to warrant anything more than that (and the scriptedness of the damage tends to line up with the healing oGCDs often enough, so that really trivializes things). And it gets worse as the content trickles down. Sure, there are some healer mechanics in the more “casual” pieces of content, but nothing too serious. Certainly not an extreme amount unless you have the worst party imaginable—and, at that point, it’s not the content calling for it; it’s just your people debuff hard at work.

Some of us enjoy juggling both, because it means that we are constantly busy with something. I honestly can’t fathom how some people can stand to only be active 20% of the time in content—or cast Cure I constantly each time the tank dips below 95% HP. That seems like a stale playstyle to me, and it’s never been how I’ve played healers. No other role is “allowed” to be active half of the time and inactive the other half, so I’m not sure why some healers think they can contribute half while the rest of the party contributes 100%. Again, this is not a mindset or playstyle I have ever understood.

So why are we the ones that need to bugger off and “go play a DPS”? I main a DPS, but I enjoy healers as well because I like the juggling of healing and dealing damage in this game. This “new system” didn’t remove healer’s damage dealing capabilities, so they will still be expected to use them, I’m sorry to say. oGCD heals are still present on the same CD (some with the same potency, like Earthly Star), and some healers even got more oGCDs to use (SCH’s new Sacred Soil is busted if it remains the same from the media tour). And I don’t really expect the healing requirements to drastically increase in 5.0. Not given SE’s track record of making things easier instead of more challenging. I wish it would—but I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t.

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And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

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I highly doubt that they design the jobs around Savage/Ultimate (though they should)—considering the issue we’ve had the last 4 years of them wondering why BRD/MCH always wanted DRGs or why BRD ended up dealing far more damage than they anticipated once they partied up with a DRG—because they never considered piercing resistance down when it came to balancing those two jobs. They balance jobs solo against their roles, not in a party setting with buffs in mind (again, see BRD’s power creep this expansion—I don’t think they considered how critical a DRG, Battle Litany, and Chain Stratagem would be to the job). At least, that’s how it’s been in the past. Look no further than BRD/MCH for proof of that.

All jobs are balanced to clear Savage/Ultimate, but I don’t think they design them exclusively around that content in mind. They certainly don’t balance them around the way they are commonly played in Savage/Ultimate.

We just want to pew pew? Did you ever consider that we enjoy juggling both? I would rather have more healing uptime in fights. I would like a balance 50/50 in most content, and the highest end content shifting towards more healing compared to damage. But I don’t want 100% healing because that would take away the fun of juggling both, which is what made healers ultimately fun for me. People hated the old Cleric Stance, but I loved stance dancing in Heavensward with it. It kept me active and engaged, and anything that keeps me active and engaged is a plus in my book.

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I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

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It’s unlikely that 5.0 healers will fall into this “pure healer” role that you want so much. Just based on what we have heard thus far from the healers at E3 that said they were doing just about the same healing in the level 73 content compared to what they do now. We’ll know for certain in a few days, but I seriously doubt we’re going to see a shift to “pure healing”—there’s no way they’ll call for 80~90% healing in all pieces of content. I said it earlier in the thread: I love this game, but the developers design it to be easy and “newcomer friendly”.



All this being said, I don’t think you have much right in telling career healers to “buzz off and just go play a DPS” because we disagree on how healers should be handled. I may raid on a DPS most of the time, but I play my healers far more—and in all types of content: from dungeons and 24-mans to Extremes to Savage and Ultimate. I also don’t think you have the right to tell us not to voice our opinions on a public forum designed for discussion and feedback. You’re welcome to voice your opinion, but we are welcome to voice ours as well.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

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How dare you. How can you be so utterly selfish to just tell of an entire player base of people who want to juggle healing and DPSing just because that's not how you want to play? What gives you the right to demand such a thing? You are not above the rest of us and you have no place telling us to go play DPS and leave you alone.

You don't want to DPS? Then don't! You'll still clear content.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

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QFT.

If you didn't like to DPS, no one forced you to. "But savage groups required it". Then form your own. "But it's hard" Yeah, it is. That's why better groups want healer dps. To make everyone's lives a little easier.

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Originally Posted by Toystore

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

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Some of us are here to actually play the game, not sit around doing nothing when the tank is topped off. We're not advocating DPSing because we want to DPS, we're advocating DPS because sitting around doing nothing sounds idiotic when we could be helping. Just because you're a prissy princess who won't deign to sully their hands with the peasant work of DPSing doesn't mean the rest of us are so self-centered as to make the rest of the party do all the work.