Will bard lose it's identity/class fantasy?

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Originally Posted by Razard

And what do all those renditions (minus one), have in common?

Yep, they are all trash.

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XIV's Bard could be designed to look like any example of previous bard and be so OP broken that they'd need a nerf. The opposite is true as well.

A lot of ShB DNC job fantasy is very similar to previous iterations, because you'll... er, dance a lot. But who knows, the job might be trash or really convoluted, or (hopefully) work out flawlessly.

Gameplay viability has nothing to do with job theme/fantasy.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why is Bard the odd man out who isn't allowed to thrive in the job fantasy of running into battle with nothing but a flute or a harp and using exclusively music to help allies and hurt enemies? Yeah, the support role in ARR was deemed too niche and was cut from the game, but what's wrong with a DPS using music to attack? Deuce does it and she's arguably the most broken character in Type-0 besides maybe Rem abusing Reraise + Summoning.

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Because logic? You say the fact that you can't just run in with a harp/flute into a battle destroys the job fantasy, but for me.. if I saw a bard running up to let's just say.. Shinryu with a harp/flute.. "welp he's dead." and if he wasn't i'd be like that's completely ridiculous. Attaching it to a bow makes sense from a realism perspective. The flute/harp aspect still exists in Bard. it's not like they stripped those animations away. A lot of this sounds like Bard's finding something to throw a fit about because they are losing their guaranteed spot in basically any party.

Songs are still a thing. Oh no Bard is losing all it's support! We're being homogenized, we're losing our job fantasy! You mean like Machinist did in 4.0? Bard isn't crit proc based anymore so there's no need for the 3% crit rate buff anymore, Foe's was a touch and go thing that was a balancing nightmare and pretty much made bard mandatory. Warden's is still around, playing music to help soothe what ails you. Wanderer's, Mage's, and Army's is still all there and key aspects of the rotation, Pitch Perfect is still there, Battle voice is still there! Troubador is still there! Granted it works a bit differently but it's all still there. You lost one song. Foe's which needed to be gone so that we could finally get a balanced Physical Ranged sub role. Because as it stood through this expansion the physical ranged sub role has been.. Bard and "Omg what is that a mange infested dying mutt that's been run over by a train and struck by lightning?"

This whole thread is just.. wow..

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Because logic? You say the fact that you can't just run in with a harp/flute into a battle destroys the job fantasy, but for me.. if I saw a bard running up to let's just say.. Shinryu with a harp/flute.. "welp he's dead." and if he wasn't i'd be like that's completely ridiculous. Attaching it to a bow makes sense from a realism perspective. The flute/harp aspect still exists in Bard. it's not like they stripped those animations away. A lot of this sounds like Bard's finding something to throw a fit about because they are losing their guaranteed spot in basically any party.

Songs are still a thing. Oh no Bard is losing all it's support! We're being homogenized, we're losing our job fantasy! You mean like Machinist did in 4.0? Bard isn't crit proc based anymore so there's no need for the 3% crit rate buff anymore, Foe's was a touch and go thing that was a balancing nightmare and pretty much made bard mandatory. Warden's is still around, playing music to help soothe what ails you. Wanderer's, Mage's, and Army's is still all there and key aspects of the rotation, Pitch Perfect is still there, Battle voice is still there! Troubador is still there! Granted it works a bit differently but it's all still there. You lost one song. Foe's which needed to be gone so that we could finally get a balanced Physical Ranged sub role. Because as it stood through this expansion the physical ranged sub role has been.. Bard and "Omg what is that a mange infested dying mutt that's been run over by a train and struck by lightning?"

This whole thread is just.. wow..

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The problem is that the archery aspect is way more proeminent than the bardic aspect. Why the proc arrow couldn't be "Refulgent Song" instead, or something like that? I think it's fine for it to use bow and arrows for the regular rotational attacks, but we needed more stuff involving songs to justify the job's name.

They could keep MCH like it was and just adjust or create new abilities with gunplay in mind, but they actually went for a thematic change and made MCH live up to the job's name and not feel like a gunner with some touches of machinist here and there.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

The problem is that the archery aspect is way more proeminent than the bardic aspect. Why the proc arrow couldn't be "Refulgent Song" instead, or something like that? I think it's fine for it to use bow and arrows for the regular rotational attacks, but we needed more stuff involving songs to justify the job's name.

They could keep MCH like it was and just adjust or create new abilities with gunplay in mind, but they actually went for a thematic change and made MCH live up to the job's name and not feel like a gunner with some touches of machinist here and there.

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No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.

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Bard Definition: a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition.
synonyms: poet, versifier, verse-maker, rhymester, rhymer, sonneteer, lyricist, lyrist, elegist

Yup, a bow and arrow is definitely what defines a bard

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.

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I worded my post poorly about MCH: I meant, they could keep the theme gunner and just redesign the abilities around gunplay, essentially making it work but keeping the theme the same, but they didn't: Yoshi P even stated that MCH felt more like a gunner than a machinist per se, hence the changes. (and it got me quite surprised because in the beginning of SB I was here in this forum being read to filth for suggesting EXACTLY what they made for MCH: be themed around Edgar's Tools)

About the BRD, I'm not suggesting either it to be fully song-based, but the scale is turned way more to the archery side, and that is what feels weird. A better thematic balance could be achieved, but alas this is a personal expectation of the job, of course people that enjoy it for what it is at the moment will disagree.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Bard Definition: a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition.
synonyms: poet, versifier, verse-maker, rhymester, rhymer, sonneteer, lyricist, lyrist, elegist

Yup, a bow and arrow is definitely what defines a bard

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because poetry and reciting epics, and singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea, it will stop ascians from their pursuit of remerging the shards and freeing zodiark, it'll stop the flood of light from engulfing the first right?

There are worse things than giving bard a bow that usually comes attached with a harp or is very harp oriented, there's nothing in the bard tool kit that calls attention to the fact that it's a bard. Bard doesn't use songs to power up their attacks, Their entire kit, it's just ranger/hunter esque with no musical flavor at all.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

because poetry and reciting epics, and singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea, it will stop ascians from their pursuit of remerging the shards and freeing zodiark, it'll stop the flood of light from engulfing the first right?

There are worse things than giving bard a bow that usually comes attached with a harp or is very harp oriented, there's nothing in the bard tool kit that calls attention to the fact that it's a bard. Bard doesn't use songs to power up their attacks, Their entire kit, it's just ranger/hunter esque with no musical flavor at all.

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Well, one could argue that you couldn't dance your way to Eorzea salvation either, lol.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Well, one could argue that you couldn't dance your way to Eorzea salvation either, lol.

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good point but then again Dancer comes with chakrams and other throwing weapons that it can use to attack, and using dancing as another aspect of it to "encourage" (aka buff) team mates. And in turn buffing those team mates and seeing them do better and respond positively to their dances, gives them resources back as if re-energizing them. From a stand point it makes sense. Bard is much the same place. It still uses songs. Music, being a Bard is at the very core of it. The weapon and skills the bard uses is amplified and made more powerful by the bard's songs. They've struck a good balance between what a bard is in its theme and how to make it viably survivable in this world. That's my point.

Bard isn't just some ranger knock off. It's Bard. It's an Eorzean realistic Bard. Songs, are at it's core, music, is a major recurring factor in every aspect of bard between combat and out of combat with the performance skill only being able to be used by having the bard job unlocked. Saying Bard is losing it's identity because it's lost a few minor support skills is ridiculous when the themes of what a bard is.. is rampant throughout the job in more ways than almost any other job in this game. Bard's identity is perfectly secure and easy to spot. No other job has such a focus on songs or music in general. The A.F. gear makes it very clear that bard is a performer but it still holds function while out in the wild.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

because... singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea...

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Bard songs are magic. Saying they aren't enough is like saying that White Mage just throws rocks and blows air at people.

You can solo FF5 as Bard. Once you get to really powerful songs, like the one that raises your level, it's not even that bad. No bow or swords even, you're restricted to harps or knives.

Bards in other IP's can also run pure spellcasting (read: magical performance arts) builds. Spell focused Bard is top tier in D&D 5e.

Given that there are Bard spells in Final Fantasy already that deal straight damage, including in FF14(!), there's no reason why the lore couldn't have support singing enemies to death. Or just a greater focus on songs over archery in general.

Also, saving nations doesn't realistically come down to single people mowing down everything. Supporting movements and causes with the arts is a major way to present ideas and sway public opinion. Through music alone, Bard is hypothetically better situated to driving positive change in FF14's world than many Disciple of War jobs, from a social science standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

From a stand point it makes sense. Bard is much the same place. It still uses songs. Music, being a Bard is at the very core of it. The weapon and skills the bard uses is amplified and made more powerful by the bard's songs. They've struck a good balance between what a bard is in its theme and how to make it viably survivable in this world. That's my point.

...Songs, are at it's core, music, is a major recurring factor in every aspect of bard between combat and out of combat with the performance skill only being able to be used by having the bard job unlocked. Saying Bard is losing it's identity because it's lost a few minor support skills is ridiculous when the themes of what a bard is rampant throughout the job in more ways than... any other job...

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Part of Bard's musical identity throughout Final Fantasy is that the song primarily empower one's allies. FF14's 30-50 job quests reiterate this: a Bard's song improve their allies.

FF14 Bard is LOSING aspects of that class fantasy in Shadowbringers and getting nothing to replace them. We're losing Foe's Requiem and the crit aura to allies on our rotational songs. Troubadour had its duration halved, though it IS easier to use now. We're ALSO losing many of the role action support skills, which is a loss for the entire ranged DPS/Support role. Pallisade, Refresh, and Tactician are ALL gone.

Bard loses 4 support skills counting those, its songs no longer buff (asides from Battle Voice once/3 minutes), and in return we get more pew-pew with a coat of "musical" paint slapped on.

I don't care how good Bard is in raid meta. I raided as healer and caster. I did enjoy being a support hybrid in casual through EX content, which is greatly gutted in Shadowbringers because Dancer's gotta get pushed.

Basically, I played Bard because it was the closest thing after AST in the game to being a support role. I played to refresh resources, throw mitigation around, boost damage, and interrupt enemies on a regular basis.

Now I have one damage boost and one mitigation per three minutes (where dancer is nearly always buffing someone), a cleanse that almost never sees use, a healing boost on one target (when Dancer flat out has a heal), and some shared Crowd Controls that I have to hope Square Enix actually makes matter outside of Eureka, Deep Dungeons, and a random Savage floor or two for the first time since ARR.

The stuff I like has been removed and Dancer conveniently turns up with some of it (the most desired piece by the widespread community at that!).

tl;dr Dancer beat up my Bard for their lunch money support-hybrid role and I've every right to be concerned about being shoved into MCH's "but hey, at least you're a better personal DPS!" corner when I didn't PLAY Bard to be a better pDPS (I've got BLACK MAGE for that). I've lived in the healer equivalent to that corner as WHM for years and it isn't enjoyable.

Sounds like you'll be happy playing Dancer then.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

because poetry and reciting epics, and singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea, it will stop ascians from their pursuit of remerging the shards and freeing zodiark, it'll stop the flood of light from engulfing the first right?

There are worse things than giving bard a bow that usually comes attached with a harp or is very harp oriented, there's nothing in the bard tool kit that calls attention to the fact that it's a bard. Bard doesn't use songs to power up their attacks, Their entire kit, it's just ranger/hunter esque with no musical flavor at all.

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Deuce completely annihilating every enemy in an entire zone using Black Requiem would like to have a word with you.

And if you want to argue that I'm using a different Final Fantasy which has different worldly rules to it (which I have a strong feeling you'd do), then I suppose the concept of a magical song is just that ridiculous that it wouldn't fit anywhere in the land of Eorzea, where Machinists can pull massive gadgets out of thin air, Dragons can somehow cause rays of light to emit from every stab of their spear, Samurai can emit flower petals with every slice of a katana, Dark Knights in probably 120 lbs armor can do backflips, Paladins also in 120 lbs armor can leap 8 feet in the air and hover as they wag their sword around to somehow strike every foe within 5 yalms, and Ninjas can conjure elephant-sized frogs to burp fire onto your enemies.

You're right, you totally can't stop the ascians with songs. Astrologians defeating them with sparkly lights is more believable.

The only thing I can't accept is BRD songs having no effects on others. Is he that bad? Is he airplaying? Put back that symbolic 2-3% crit/dh buff!

Harps or knives.. well lookie there Bard still has a alternative weapon. This time it's a bow that has heavily leaned into doubling as a musical instrument in many of it's weapon designs. It's a buff job historically.. sure it is. As for songs being magical. They currently are in this game as well they just don't do spells, and when the concept flirted with that back in heavensward bards threw a friggen tantrum (rightfully so but aside from the point). This iteration of bard is the closest it's been to it's core job identity. Yes you lost a few buffs. The horror of it all. You weren't gutted. At all. If you think you're class or your job fantasy got gutted. Go find a summoner main from 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 this is a job that has a right to complain about Job Identity.

And while yes this is a different final fantasy games and the rules can be bent here to allow some of the examples you've shown. The work on bard isn't nearly as grievous as it seems. You act as if songs have become completely removed from bard at all. 3% passive crit buff that was actually meant more for yourself than for anyone in the party because your procs relied on your dots critting, foe's requiem is gone.. troubador isn't as good anymore.. well abjectively troubador is still just fine and a lot more useful now. Warden's has it's uses.

So the new job came in and stole some of your thunder took some of your support skills. Guess what? It happens to every role every time a new job is introduced. One of the jobs gets robbed of it's spot and it's lime light. It happened when Astro, dark, and MCH were introduced, it happened with samurai and red mage, it's going to happen with gunbreaker and dancer. You'll end up just fine with your class fantasy in tact.. heck if you raise enough voices and ask the devs nicely in a suggestion thread.. before august when 6.0 road map is finalize and keep at it through expansion im sure your vision of more songs will come true, but saying that you are being robbed of class identity and fantasy is over the top. You aren't. Not even close. The identity is more being focused on the Bard itself rather than what the bard does for the party.

So take your bow like a true bard would, let the dancer have it's moment in the sun. It's only two years. You'll get your encore I'm sure cause as I said before. Bard is still the singularly most popular job in this game.. or at least one of them and I'm sure that is not going to change.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Harps or knives.. well lookie there Bard still has a alternative weapon.

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Because there isn't a class in that game that CAN'T use knives.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

This iteration of bard is the closest it's been to it's core job identity.

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I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. It's the most different it's been from every single other installment, yet it's closer than ever to what it should be? What's your basis for what the class fantasy of Bard is?

For me, it's D&D's bard, Etrian Odyssey's troubadour, and FF4/5/11's Bard. A supportive spellcaster/performer who uses the arts as spell mediums and often has supplemental combat or support abilities. Keyword "supplemental" there. Not "archer with some songs that only buff themself most of the time."

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Yes you lost a few buffs. The horror of it all. You weren't gutted. At all.

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Counting the role actions, we're losing literally HALF of our non-bind/interrupt support options numerically. That fits my definition of gutted.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

You act as if songs have become completely removed from bard at all.

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They de facto have. Songs don't do anything close to what they do in other FF games, let alone other fantasy media, anymore. FF14 bard songs don't do in exact effect or archetype (support) what they did when this game launched or how they're described in the lore for ARR (same issue AST will now have)!

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

The identity is more being focused on the Bard itself rather than what the bard does for the party.

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In several decades of the fantasy media and roleplaying I've experienced, what the Bard's songs do for the party is literally a core aspect of Bard's identity. It's what separates them from any fop with a little skill at the lute, a distinction FF14 itself calls out in bard lore (only true bards, who'd known loss, could sing songs that produced powerful effects in the listeners).

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Harps or knives.. well lookie there Bard still has a alternative weapon. This time it's a bow that has heavily leaned into doubling as a musical instrument in many of it's weapon designs. It's a buff job historically.. sure it is. As for songs being magical. They currently are in this game as well they just don't do spells, and when the concept flirted with that back in heavensward bards threw a friggen tantrum (rightfully so but aside from the point). This iteration of bard is the closest it's been to it's core job identity. Yes you lost a few buffs. The horror of it all. You weren't gutted. At all. If you think you're class or your job fantasy got gutted. Go find a summoner main from 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 this is a job that has a right to complain about Job Identity.

And while yes this is a different final fantasy games and the rules can be bent here to allow some of the examples you've shown. The work on bard isn't nearly as grievous as it seems. You act as if songs have become completely removed from bard at all. 3% passive crit buff that was actually meant more for yourself than for anyone in the party because your procs relied on your dots critting, foe's requiem is gone.. troubador isn't as good anymore.. well abjectively troubador is still just fine and a lot more useful now. Warden's has it's uses.

So the new job came in and stole some of your thunder took some of your support skills. Guess what? It happens to every role every time a new job is introduced. One of the jobs gets robbed of it's spot and it's lime light. It happened when Astro, dark, and MCH were introduced, it happened with samurai and red mage, it's going to happen with gunbreaker and dancer. You'll end up just fine with your class fantasy in tact.. heck if you raise enough voices and ask the devs nicely in a suggestion thread.. before august when 6.0 road map is finalize and keep at it through expansion im sure your vision of more songs will come true, but saying that you are being robbed of class identity and fantasy is over the top. You aren't. Not even close. The identity is more being focused on the Bard itself rather than what the bard does for the party.

So take your bow like a true bard would, let the dancer have it's moment in the sun. It's only two years. You'll get your encore I'm sure cause as I said before. Bard is still the singularly most popular job in this game.. or at least one of them and I'm sure that is not going to change.

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As someone who also loves summoner, Bard has far more right to complain about job identity. Summoner can now call for demi-primals, which is light years ahead of where it was.

Bard is still a Ranger. And look, I don't hate the Ranger job. Let it exist in its own right because it certainly deserves it too, but just stop calling it what it isn't.

If a job came along wielding Bells and casting nature magic, but also kinda-sorta could cast an attack speed slow debuff on enemies once every 30 seconds, should we call it Time Mage?

If a job came along that controlled an automaton, but also had the ability to throw knives as a long ranged attack, should we call it Juggler?

If a job came along wearing furs and using berserk and rage based attacks with claws, but can also summon a lion to attack for 15 seconds once every 90 seconds, should we call it Beast Master?

If you answered no to any of these, then why is it that when a job comes along that uses a bow to bombard enemies with arrows, but can also occasionally sing a song to shift their DPS cycle, we call it a Bard?

Simply put there is no pleasing any one in these forums. Like no matter what you people will find something to complain about for no apparent reason than you can. Like oh my god bard doesn't do anything but sing it's not a true bard. So why not take away the bow, bring back caster bard, and make it the magic dps equivalent to dancer in 6.0. Good god.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Simply put there is no pleasing any one in these forums. Like no matter what you people will find something to complain about for no apparent reason than you can. Like oh my god bard doesn't do anything but sing it's not a true bard. So why not take away the bow, bring back caster bard, and make it the magic dps equivalent to dancer in 6.0. Good god.

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The reason your example utterly fails to display what you think of the situation is because IF Bard only sang and had no bow and arrow actions whatsoever, then someone complaining about it not being a true Bard would be like complaining that a Monk using only martial arts wasn't a true Monk, or that a Black Mage only casting black magic spells wasn't a true Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Simply put there is no pleasing any one in these forums. Like no matter what you people will find something to complain about for no apparent reason than you can. Like oh my god bard doesn't do anything but sing it's not a true bard. So why not take away the bow, bring back caster bard, and make it the magic dps equivalent to dancer in 6.0. Good god.

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This thread has 6 pages of replies and you still seem to be missing the point. Why are you so angry at the thought that maybe Bard is being sold as one thing when it’s another? Or do you think it’s ok for Black Mage to be purely physical based bare handed melee DPS that rotate between a single fire, ice, lightning spell, on a 80 second cooldown, with that cooldown having no further relation to anything actually involving black magic? Oh and Monk is the base job so nobody who wants to be a Monk can really be a Monk, they have to one with black magic cooldowns. Nobody can be a Black Mage because of the physical mechanics. Then in between those long magic cooldowns, you just...punch. Great. Nothing wrong with the design.Except it’s not very ‘Black Mage’, is it?

Let’s not kid ourselves here either. Bard isn’t the most popular in the game. Not even close. But Archer is. It just so happens that Bard is attached to it.
I think everyone would win if Bard and Archer got turned into separate jobs. Archers can be Archers, Bards can be Bards.

You make it sound as if making Bard a caster is somehow an inherently bad thing. Nobody cared about cast times on their Bard. What they did care about was a poorly designed Archery mechanic that didn’t add anything worthwhile to the gameplay. And yes, a song that you use solely to augment your physical Arrow shots is, by all means and purposes, an archery mechanic. The point people are making are that even if you deleted the three main songs and replaced them with ‘Arrow Shot 1/2/3’ there would be absolutely no changes to the gameplay or overall feel of the class. Which isn’t a problem alone, but begs the question ‘is this really a Bard?’

Some of us signed up to play Bard in 1.0 when it really was more magical based. Songs were real support abilities with a fixed buff uptime (e.g 30 seconds) with cast times that even required proper positioning sometimes. You could cast a variety of White Magic (Cure/Raise/Protect/Stoneskin) to support the party. Hell you could use Black Magic if you wanted to. That job I played flat out does not exist anymore, and has continued to go further and further in the opposite direction as time went on.

If they removed Bard and renamed it Ranger in the game right now, I don’t think anyone would bat an eyelid. But if they removed Archer and made a pure Bard, well...

The biggest departure from Final Fantasy precedent is that you want bards in your party.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The biggest departure from Final Fantasy precedent is that you want bards in your party.

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I'd readily take a Bard in my team during the 3rd World in FF5. It's a laughably weak job in the first world, mediocre in the second, but in the third it breaks the game in a way only Dualcast, Quick, and Mimic BS really competes with. Yes, I DO want my entire party to be level 255 in a game where level affects nearly everything.

Even outside that one busted song, the rest of the tunes are massively stronger buffs after 2-3 ATB cycles than the usual buff spells.

Bard was popular in FF11 too for some fights. Though it was very much in the Geomancer boat of "sit here, set up your thing, do NOTHING else."

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The biggest departure from Final Fantasy precedent is that you want bards in your party.

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I guess we should delete Scholar based on this principle too then, because outside of the Amon fight and cheesing some bosses with attack items there’s really no use for it. And how about Astrologian? You can’t even get that in your party lol, it’s guest-character (npc) specific, and it’s a Squire clone with Orran’s added unique ability. I wouldn’t want that in my party (Tactics has cross-classing so you can’t even really argue that Celestial Stasis would make it viable in the party, because you could still use it on other jobs if he was a party member and not an NPC)

Why does something have to have been viable in previous games for people to like it anyway lol. Or are you saying that if we follow one precedent then we have to follow every other one? I don’t think that’s how it work lol, I mean ffxiv is full of instances where they’ll happily follow one precedent but ignore another if there’s no reason to follow it

Man if anything this whole situation has given me more of an appreciation for Scholar players issues right now with their whole DPS kit being gutted. It's literally a mirror image of how their threads go.

-Scholar/Bard player laments the gutting and simplification of their support/dps kit.
-Other Scholar/Bard players talk about why they agree or disagree, but the majority seem to agree they dislike it overall.
-Players of other jobs come in and start throwing out their opinions on why players who have been playing the job for over 6 years are wrong. Arguments normally centered around "These abilities were bad anyway/those abilities were really difficult to balance/your job is now more focused on what it's supposed to be doing/that wasn't your real identity anyway"
-Scholar/Bard players rationally inform why these opinions don't really equal out to us.
-Players of other jobs devolve into the standard responses. "You're just mad you're not part of the Meta anymore/Let other jobs have their fun in the sun/just play another job then/just wait till the next expansion then/y'all are just a bunch of negative nancy's like everyone else on this board."

Seriously. Bet I could go back and pull conversations about 3.0 Bow Wizard and 4.0 White Mage that literally look the exact same way.

If you'd ask me to redesign the job completely, I would simply give the archery abilities just as the "filler" and rotational... Everything else, from song upkeep, procs, cooldowns, I'd put as songs.

And above theme, the other thing is that I would put it as an equal to Dancer in terms of support... Except bards would benefit more casters and healers, and dancers would benefit more physical dpsers and tanks... a bard would be able to benefit the niche it isn't supposed though, but at reduced effectiveness, same for dancer.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

If you'd ask me to redesign the job completely, I would simply give the archery abilities just as the "filler" and rotational... Everything else, from song upkeep, procs, cooldowns, I'd put as songs.

And above theme, the other thing is that I would put it as an equal to Dancer in terms of support... Except bards would benefit more casters and healers, and dancers would benefit more physical dpsers and tanks... a bard would be able to benefit the niche it isn't supposed though, but at reduced effectiveness, same for dancer.

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I've thought of this myself too, though just the rotational being arrows and everything else being music. I think this is the best possible scenario that's plausible for the future.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

And above theme, the other thing is that I would put it as an equal to Dancer in terms of support... Except bards would benefit more casters and healers, and dancers would benefit more physical dpsers and tanks... a bard would be able to benefit the niche it isn't supposed though, but at reduced effectiveness, same for dancer.

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That's cool, but it creates class-synergies, which is bad. And, TBH, It would be nice to have Foie and the crit buff re-implemented. Also, designing Mage's Ballad so that it would restore the party's MP every time bloodletter and RoD was used would be more useful in all situations in general would probably be really fulfilling to players, and go in line with BRD's identity and fantasy thing.

I really want a single target spell that would cast aoe dot that would remove windbite, require it to be active on the target, cast a new type of dot on any mob in a cure III aoe radius, and also be removable from a target if windbite was recast on it for balacing, though.

Oh, and a bow that would look like a combination of a keyboard/electric guitar when sheathed. And, something like a music based version of the spriggan hoodie and a few music themed glamours for shoes and accessories.

And a cure three AOE for minne and wardens, and have there recast timers lowered to like 12 seconds...

Even DNC kit looks a little bare, you know

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Also, designing Mage's Ballad so that it would restore the party's MP every time bloodletter and RoD was used would be more useful in all situations in general would probably be really fulfilling to players, and go in line with BRD's identity and fantasy thing.

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That's an inspired suggestion. I'd like to see the other two songs get a similar effect.

And then raise the other classes to match that sort of improvement if it makes BRD stand out too much.

Seriously, I don't get SE's obsession with pruning the jobs over and over until every one is a bare role trunk with one flavor twig and a leaf on it.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

That's an inspired suggestion. I'd like to see the other two songs get a similar effect.

And then raise the other classes to match that sort of improvement if it makes BRD stand out too much.

Seriously, I don't get SE's obsession with pruning the jobs over and over until every one is a bare role trunk with one flavor twig and a leaf on it.

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3. I get why they do it, but then cow clicker vs buttons-for-miles are just as bad, and hopefully we can get closer to like P4 Arena instead.

2. Like...

DGN. new gauge "body of the Dragon" with abilities like "Reverse Scale" (consumes "bidy of the dragon, resets all cooldowns, increases dmg by 40%, stacks w/ BfB, new attack special effects for attacks, jump to create ice circle dot, infinite blood of the dragon gauge, time limit 20 seconds, inflicts pacification after time limit is exceeded, cannot be used with steel-like scales), "steel-like scales" (consumes "body of the dragon gauge", grant a massive defense and emnity boost, dragoon will roar like a dragon and changes aggro to A, 30-60 time limit, enters pacification after exceeding time limit). They're a bit OP, but only SMN has utility like that, I think

1. Well...

Army's would probably be fine if the effect affected the whole party as well, or if it helped with the job gauges in some way. But Minuet just seems fine. It's basically our solo/selfish song in the game, but they could just make it increase straight shot proc rates, or just half the recast of empyreal arrow for the song's duration or something. TBH, I'd like to just try out the 5.0 version first. It's like way too early to really examine it right now

To add to suggestions, maybe with Bard's mobility, it could be cool to add a medium AoE effect to songs instead of raid-wide. Of course song effects would need to be boosted (I also quite like the last suggestions for song effects).

Adding an AoE effect like that could maybe bring more challenging gameplay? Like, having to decide the most optimal place to stand while avoiding mechanics and getting the most out of your songs' buffing effects to party members, which party members to buff with the ongoing song, etc.

Minuet is our "Time to DPS" song, Ballad has always been about MP since the ol' Bow Mage days, but I don't know what Army Paeon could do. The only thing I can imagine is granting Haste to you and party, but it needs to be worthwhile (it currently takes 4 procs to get a slight speed boost, the effort is not worth the reward in my opinion). Maybe have the Haste effect stack depending on the number of procs?
Other than that, although I understand the removal of some Role Actions, I want Palissade back (or an equivalent that grants defense).

Being told "Well you're DPS, you're not supposed to have so many buffs available because of the Trinity" is angering to a certain degree, especially since Dancer shows up to rub salt in the wound. In MMOs and games in general, heck even in normal fantasy, Bard is traditionally associated with Support. In FF14, Bard is a DPS. Sure that's okay, but there has to be a way to keep the support aspect that's glued to Bard's identity throughout the fantasy genre so the class doesn't turn into another selfish-dps-but-with-2-raid-buffs.
The key to that balance is, of course, the songs and procs however Bards should have more buffs available compared to the other DPS classes while also not being so good as it invalidates some Healer actions. Perhaps all of our buffs can only be used under song duration like Battle Voice (and also affect the bard itself). Or maybe it costs procs to use certain buffs? That way, it would show the players to ABS (Always Be Singing) lest a big part of their kit is greyed out.

Some of those are only some of the things from the top of my head, but I firmly believe Bard should keep over 1/3rd (or even half) of it's kit for Support skills. I personally chose Bard because I like to support my team (and Healer is a bit too stressful for me) while also enjoying the Archer aspect of it. I might very reluctantly pick up Dancer or just stay a Fisher main for ShB.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

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1. Well, that sounds like it would go against the current design philosophy for FF14, and it might turn into another bowmage or latter 2.0 situation. And, the playerbase is def not up to something of that skill level. It might be better to enable players to mitigate wipe mechanic damage, alternative emergency personal-dps-up skills, or lowering the walls players must climb by limiting the current obsession of DPS numbers and how high they can push it and thus what everyone else is expected to push to and instead focus on giving the feeling of that content being difficult, which is one of many illusions practiced in game design. Like they could redesign the tells of Suzaku EX based on "The players will not be able to communicate with each other during the trial", so they would have to design it so that the trial would have more observable tells like clockwise and counter-clockwise notes to distinguish between pull and push and a visual tell like an aura to draw the player's attention to her and engage the player in a way that gives them "Eureka" moments in play

2. Well, the 5.0 effect for paean is a 30 sec extended haste that will be scaled to the number of notes/procs activated, and allowing the haste buff to affect the whole party would require them to fix the two issues involving clipping for faster jobs, and TP, which is finally gone forever. The former could be fixed with animation tricks like creating after-images to complete actions that would make the character appear faster, but in a way that would avoid seizures and not upset the spaghetti code. They could also make it reduce the time it takes for ogcds to reset.

Having less actions can mean having less to balance and tweak too

3. Everyone said that redmage would be totally broken, and it would just end up like SCH/SMN too. But, it ended up being really fun to play

I kind of agree in that, right now, support is an integral part of bard (it is a support-DPS class; that's the whole gimmick in its questline: play songs to rejuvinate your comrades or weaken your foes, etc.). They don't have the same repercussions as they did in 2.0 that I'm aware of and the songs have enough variety where you can strategically use them provided they aren't on CD. Personally, I like playing synergists (and saboteurs) as a whole, so for me as an individual, I think the support skills to bard are an important part of its current gameplay. It's literally the only reason why I play it and not some other DPS class.