Do you feel empathy towards the Warriors of Darkness?

I can't really emphasize with the WoD much, yes that had a very horrible situation through only doing what they were told to do but at no point did they question "How do you know that our world will be absorbed next with the next calamity?" to Elidibus which means if their world wasn't rejoined would they keep causing calamities until it does (probably what Elidibus was after) at some point life would die out with all the calamities remaining so there wouldn't think be anything for the 1st shard's populace aether to go to, the WoD clung onto what they believed was their only hope their motive is sympathetic but their actions not so much.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Where did they mention the role of [Zenos'] father or state of his mother?

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It's in his short story in the Chronicles of Light book, "The Hunt Begins."

Honestly I think I need more info on the characters.

Haven't seen the whole thread but have seen some confusion on how people could relate to villainous characters.

Understanding = just recognizing that someone sees themself as the hero of their own story and has reasons behind various choices they make. They're not doing things to be random or for the sake of being an obstacle in your life.

Compassion = when someone is in pain, you regret them feeling that pain and would see that change if possible.

Justification = believing that someone is making a correct and moral choice in light of their circumstances

You can understand and feel compassion for a villain without agreeing with them or finding them justified.

Warriors of Darkness, people have been bringing up the weird sadism they showed during the Heavensward fights. I don't currently have enough sense of how/why they reached a place where they did that to empathize--understanding + compassion.

I can speculate that the reason they spoke and acted they way they did was because of feeling trapped in an ugly situation and not wanting to face the reality of that situation. If that's the case, they might have been treating the WoL the way they would have treated a monster or primal because that was easier to stomach. Denial and such.

But thing is, this is speculation. Until more is shown about the Warriors of Darkness and their normal personalities, there's no real way of knowing.

Zenos (since people have been mentioning him) seriously reads like a poster child for Antisocial Personality Disorder to me. I'm not saying that for the sake of dropping a psych term or even with the assumption that devs sat down all "hmmm what mental condition should we attach here". I think it's as simple as there are real people who lack the capacity for empathy and end up feeling empty as a result. When they search for any way to feel something the adrenaline rush of violence, competition, and risk of failure can give them that. Not every person with Antisocial ends up going full-Zenos, but it's harder to manage in a healthy and functional way.

I might not relate to Zenos per se, but he makes perfect sense to me. IMO it's a shame that his life led him to the worst possibilities for himself, but of course he's not justified. I'm very curious how becoming Resonant will shape him, it's a weird and interesting concept and might act to sort of artificially instill empathy. Or he might have knowledge without empathy, or he might get overloaded and hate it. I do think he's a good villain regardless and it's exciting to see him because I find the guy interesting.

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Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I might not relate to Zenos per se, but he makes perfect sense to me. I do think he's a good villain regardless and it's exciting to see him because I find the guy interesting.

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He is a good villain.

He's also a breath of fresh air. Since his motives are pure and entirely selfish. He wants to feel alive by fighting someone of equal worth (Though, these days he's found himself in a sidequest to reclaim his body...)

There's not some super ridiculous master plan where he becomes the Emperor of the universe, he's not trying to resurrect some ancient god, he's not trying to create a "Super race" by rejoining all the worlds, he's not being seduced or influenced by any Ascians promise of power...

No, he just wants to find someone worthy to fight. He cares little about the Garlean Empire outside of it serving as a tool to enable him to find people to fight as it expands, as well as allowing him to have a status that enables him to collect new swords. He's also has such little investment in anything other than his own personal goals that he's unlikely to end up having a redemption arc where he becomes a good guy (Like Yotsuyu and Fordola had).

He's a simple, straightforward villain. Whom displays power that rivals and bests the WoL.

Basically, he's a Player Character from a typical RPG. Getting bored when farming trash mobs and just wanting to get to fighting bosses and getting new loot xD

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Basically, he's a Player Character from a typical RPG. Getting bored when farming trash mobs and just wanting to get to fighting bosses and getting new loot xD

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Lol omg that's actually super accurate. First thing he does after beating mobs or bosses is check the loot. Rare loot = cue the final fantasy victory music.

Based on how casually he was sifting through other people's property as EleZenos, he prob wouldn't hesitate about wandering into houses, breaking all pots in sight, then walking out with any valuables.

(I agree with your other points too, it's refreshing that his motives are very human and selfish! Sometimes it's fun to have a completely unrepentant, badass villain.)

Honestly.... abouslutely not, hell I hope to fight them again sometime during 5.X. They got off waaay to easy if you ask me, need to get humbled... HARD.. except for the Mage of Darkness.... dude was just following orders

(yeah yeah I know their world was dying/ being taken over, but they made a deal with the devil's secretary so fuck em)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Basically, he's a Player Character from a typical RPG. Getting bored when farming trash mobs and just wanting to get to fighting bosses and getting new loot xD

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That's exactly why I can't stand him. He has no depth, the sum total of his character begins and ends with just "I want to fight strong guys." Villains don't need to be larger than life or master schemers, but I'd appreciate characters whose personality is more than something that flat. I've come to expect better of Final Fantasy villains than someone as basic as Zenos, with the likes of Kuja and Seymour for example. Zenos is as low on the totem pole character-wise as the early early FF villains like Emperor Mateus and Cloud of Darkness.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Making it kind of seem like the WoD's didn't really look into every option available before deciding "Lets go mess up the Source!" under instruction of an Ascian...

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Strictly speaking, as of right now even our character doesn't yet know that there is an option besides taking the fight to the Ascians and defeating them. We're just now finding out that our current plan is supposed to lead to ruin whether we win or lose...but even then, our main motivation for finding our way to the beacon the robed figure left for us isn't to become the Warrior of Darkness and redress the balance, but rather because it's our best lead to finding where the souls of our friends in the Scions have ended up.

We know where it's headed because we have meta knowledge that the character within the universe does not yet possess.

So I think it's a bit silly to suggest that all the WoD had to do was simply go look through "all of the options"...as if they had the luxury to do so AND the access to that information. They found themselves in a vulnerable state, feeling betrayed by fate after doing everything that had been asked of them and the world was still doomed...and doomed by their actions, no less. That's the exact kind of mental and emotional vulnerability the Ascians are keen to manipulate (remember Thancred's possession was when he was emotional and mentally exhausted, running himself to the bone for the sake of the Scions).

Tangentially regarding the Warriors of Darkness: I'm curious if we'll ever meet FFXIV versions of Diana*, Sol, Aigis, and Glaive, Alba, or other characters from the FF Dimensions** game? What with all the throwbacks to FF Tactics, FF3, and so on and so forth.

* I like her outfit and would like to have it for glamour
** Haven't played the game, only read the character wikis.

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So I think it's a bit silly to suggest that all the WoD had to do was simply go look through "all of the options"...as if they had the luxury to do so AND the access to that information. They found themselves in a vulnerable state, feeling betrayed by fate after doing everything that had been asked of them and the world was still doomed...and doomed by their actions, no less. That's the exact kind of mental and emotional vulnerability the Ascians are keen to manipulate (remember Thancred's possession was when he was emotional and mentally exhausted, running himself to the bone for the sake of the Scions).

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Pretty much this. It was all explained by Arbert himself in the video I've strewn around a few times. Ascians were the enemy, the WoD's essentially being WoL's like us and doing exactly what we've been doing up until now, except they were undeniably victorious in the name of Hyde... And then realized too late what would happen if either side (light or dark) won the battle. With practically unavoidable doom on their doorstep, the only choice that remained was to treat with the Ascians to redress the balance and hope that this would save their world/shard, bringing darkness back into power. Yes, some may not have liked their smugness about it, but I don't really see any other way of incorporating this angle (in such a small space) without it. The alternative would have required a lot more time to flesh out the characters and have a more 50-50 'grey area' approach to it, but for the time-frame we got, I thought it was well executed. You're not meant to like them (initially). They're doing dark shenanigans with no care for our shard. Then you realize why they're doing it, and that we're going down the same road, and the fact that they were nothing like what we saw at the time // what drove them to those actions.

I empathize because they are basically a means of seeing what would happen if we didn't encounter this revelation and just kept serving Hyde without question (like we've always done up until that exact quest-line). Their fate would be ours - and in realizing this, ShB is happening. In short, they were decent people on the side of light just like we are (soon to be past-tense now that we're becoming WoD's). "They did everything right, everything that was asked of them" - and their reward was doom.

Note that this does not mean I would have allowed their shenanigans, nor had any doubts about the simple fact that they absolutely needed to be stopped - but I can sympathize with the reasons that pushed them towards the actions they were taking. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

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You certainly don't need to like the guy, but honestly when it comes to character depth, realism, motive, etc. Zenos is actually very technically solid.

I don't want to do a psychobabble deal or link to psychobabble so gonna do my best to explain what I've gathered speaking plain. Zenos if you ignore everything he says about his motives and experiences and only take him as sir-fights-a-lot would be very flat and boring, but that would also be dishonest and deliberately omitting significant parts of him and his personality. He's basically a serial killer, but when I say this wanna stress that I don't mean a serial killer caricature. I mean he thinks and acts like real life serial killers and has a lot of overlap with issues/motives some real life serial killers have.

He doesn't have empathy but it's not as simple as not being able to read what others may be feeling or why. There's something in him that is incapable of caring even if he does know. I suspect, particularly since he was fishing for the role he ultimately foists on the Warrior of Light, that he doesn't really see people in terms of specific and irreplaceable connections but as roles in his life. If one role sits empty, as long as someone else is placed into the same role and can fill it he doesn't care.

Indifference toward others isn't something where he's just liberated or anything, he doesn't get any real satisfaction from social interaction. He's basically bored out of his skull most of the time and desperately seeking any ways to escape that regardless of how it effects himself or others. Him settling into obsession with combat makes a ton of sense because he actually felt direction and something to aspire to in combat. That plus adrenaline in fights provokes strong feeling and he basically chases that sense of being under threat/challenge like a high. The time between fights when he has no opponents who can match him, he collects weapons that will let him fully exert himself when he DOES find an opponent who can match him. If anything he probably prefers being kept on his toes and barely able to keep up rather than winning, because certain victory and victory in-general bore him.

He's kind of simple in the sense that his motives do not come from his relationships with other people. He doesn't care about other people generally, he cares about roles. When he calls WoL his first friend and his enemy, it's not because he knows anything about the WoL personally. He just knows that WoL is able to keep up during fights in ways that let him feel. We never really hear him voice interest in anyone from Garlemald, and there are indications Asahi misread him hard when he developed his obsession.

Simple ≠ bad or lacking depth, complex ≠ good or having depth. They can, but it's not automatic or universal.

Again you don't have to like Zenos. But the way he thinks is kind of alien. There are things missing from how he processes things and SE actually rendered that in a realistic way that deserves respect. Most people get it wrong in fiction. I think the movie Nightcrawler was one of the other cases that got it correct in a non-villainous way.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

So I think it's a bit silly to suggest that all the WoD had to do was simply go look through "all of the options"...as if they had the luxury to do so AND the access to that information.

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Well...

They had the time to go chase down an Ascian, convince them to teach them about how causing a Calamity on the Source can put everyone on their world into the aetherial sea, then teach them how to travel to the Source, travel to the Source and start the long process of trying to create an imbalance of dark enough to cause a Calamity (Knowing full well that there would be at least 1 WoL on the Source trying to prevent that).

Then there's also the time for us to spend post-beating them, where we could go off and liberate Doma and Ala Mhigo and THEN still have enough time to eventually be called to the First and THEN still have time to fix the place.

Sure, you can maybe argue that Minfilia, somehow, has magical goddess powers that even Hydaelyn herself doesn't have, so that she can somehow stem the spread of the Light after we beat the WoD's and that can cover the time we spent going through the Far East and Gyr Abania and the ensuing interactions with Imperials/Tsuyu/Shadowhunter/The Parley/Zenos/(Omega? I'm not sure if that's canon yet)

But still... There was no indication of them trying things and failing before resorting to Ascian help. Like, they come to the Source to create Darkness to cause a Calamity. And we're going to the FIRST to create DARKNESS to reverse the Flood of Light...

Did they try generating Darkness on their world? Like, literally the first thing that would come to anyone's mind when faced with the concept "Oh noes, there's too much Light because we got rid of all the Darkness! Whatever shall we do?"

Did they try fighting the Sin Eaters?

Did they do ANYTHING AT ALL?

They never mentioned that they attempted anything. They were not going "Our world was doomed by our own actions and nothing we tried helped". They were simply stating that their only course of action was to get aid from Ascians and come to the Source and cause a Calamity to rejoin their world.

Essentially, they come across as some of the worst "Heroes" ever. They talk about how they were fulfilling Hydaelyn's will by going around beating up Primals. Then something happens as a result of beating up Primals and they just give up and accept defeat because they can't beat up a Flood of Light... Until they learn from an Ascian that they can help their world by beating up Primals on the Source.

Like, yes, their world was in a terrible place. Yes, it was in part due to their actions. But it was never made apparent that the drastic measure of going to the Source and causing a Calamity was their last ditch effort after everything else they had tried ended in failure and that they didn't WANT to do it but felt they HAD to.

No, it just came across like they were petulant children and when they encountered something that was caused by their indiscriminate beating up of things, that was now causing their world to be destroyed, they started sulking and built up anger towards Hydaelyn to the point where it seems like they wanted to go F up the Source just to spite her and the whole "Return the First to the aetherial sea" thing was just icing.

I'm sorry Jaywalker but I truly, honestly have no idea where you got that impression of Zenos. Throughout the entirety of Stormblood all I ever saw was, as you put it, sir fights-a-lot. Please point me to some cutscene or something that gave you an impression otherwise because I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about to get anything like that from him. I'm not being snarky here when I ask that, I mean it.

Zenos had potential but I didn't end up liking him, though I am intrigued in what's set up in 4.55 so maybe I"ll like him more going forward.

A. It felt like the main antagonist not giving a **** about the main conflict, liberating ala mhigo and doma, kind of undercut the greater conflict a bit. I mean he's apparently so disinterested that he doesn't even force the resistance to abandon rhalgr's reach after defeating us the first time.

B. He felt like he was just a wall, something for us to lose to until we get to level 70 and the story arbitrarily decides we can win now. It didn't feel like there was any actual story or narrative with us getting stronger to face him, nothing in particular we did to strive to new heights etc. We just keep doing what we've been doing the last few years and somehow our power level number got bigger so we can fight him. This is a boring means of power growth. Fordola was handled in a more interesting way, though slightly lazily, in having a device used to turn her advantage against her rather than just 'getting stronger' in that vague shoenen way. Even in his unwinnable boss fights he doesn't feel imposing or threatening because the fights are actually really easy and it feels very artificial when the game suddenly says 'okay you lose now.' Compared to something like the final chapter 3 boss of type 0 where you're just trying to survive against the tiger l'cie and he'll wreck you if he hits you for example.

We also didn't have any info on how he got the way he was, no echo flashblack showing how his childhood brought him to this point etc, the only glimpse we got of his backstory was in a short story that only recently came out.

So I just personally didn't get invested in him, though I do think he has potential to be more interesting in his new quest.

Your B example really, really bothered me too.

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I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about to get anything like that from him

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And you never will if your attempt to remedy it is to be thrown a cutscene to directly push the point at you.

It is subtly hinted throughout the entirety of his screentime - his actions, animations, and dialogue - that he's doing the things he's doing with little care for neither the victims or even the empire itself, all for his own pleasure (if you could call it that seeing as it's just not good enough to elicit even that), yet as soon as an actual potential challenge emerges, it is the one and only time he'll stop looking at it like it's just cattle and pay any kind of attention. The second time you face him, despite pretty much losing yet again, he as good as tells you to back off, live, get stronger, and return when you're worthy. Hell, every time you see him in the Empire, even his introductory cutscene, he's bored as all hell in his seat - the same pose you find him in when you confront him the penultimate time and he finally admits you were like a work-of-progress for him, that he practically falls for you (not in the usual sense) due to being the instigator of him actually feeling anything after so long.

He's consistently shown to be totally inured to everything, physically and emotionally - with the only thing closely resembling a chance at feeling anything being the thrill of the hunt (the thing that gives you the 'sir-fights-a-lot impression) which also waned due to his prowess and the fact nobody could even stand up to him, not even the WoL when they first cross paths. Until he was finally equalled, which is when he spills his guts before the climax, even realizing that in his newfound excitement he's completely forgetting himself, outright stating just how little pretty much everything, even the empire, means to him.

That's just the basics of the very start and the very end with little reference to the inbetween. I loved how he casually just walked into Ala Mhigo like he owned the place... And then quite literally lived up to that image... And then walked off like it meant nothing to him. How he doesn't seem to realize how much people want him beaten, how the misery doesn't even register or get acknowledged in any way on his radar, just 'bleating of the weak, only the strong survive', while simultaneously bewailing the fact nobody can challenge him. That's important. He's not the villain screaming at the top of their lungs how powerful they are and how nobody can stop them - he is ALREADY that person and is utterly bored to tears with it.

How you're meant to believe he's doing it for the empire or some reason we're familiar with, yet it's not. It's all for himself. You could call it selfish, yet in some weird way it isn't - he just doesn't know any better due to feeling quite literally nothing. He WANTS that pleasure and feeling but it eludes him constantly, and when you indirectly give it to him he practically falls in love with you. It's so twisted he genuinely regards you as some sort of friend for giving him that 'gift', even if the intention was to actually put the lunatic in the ground.

You call him sir-fights-a-lot, yet he doesn't even enjoy that any more. He's too good for you and everyone around him. That's not cockiness, it's fact. He WANTED to be challenged and it just never happened until you 'levelled up' as it were.

Again, none of that goes into any great detail. It's something you should revisit and revalue sometime rather than try have it proven to you with blunt evidence. It wasn't put that way at all. For a character that is so easy to be done straight-edge and direct, the 'arc' (as it were) was always kept just below the surface, creeping out in bits and pieces with various scenes and dialogue, rather than "Today in X scene, we will highlight how Villain No.3 is a raving-mad lunatic".

I need to rewatch thier cutscenes cause I mainly remember our interaction with them in the dravania forlands and that scene were Albert tried to attack minfilia.

As far as villians goes I'm still trying to decide who I liked better between niddhog and zenos, both were awesome.

While I most definitely advocate for players to use the Journal and literally relive those scenes, I'll throw that video in here again for good measure. No doubt some out there would just rather the quick and dirty approach without having to do actual skipping.

Video is of (most) of the important bits (skips a bit) but essentially just gives the PoV of Arbert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMr_BZddAw

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Originally Posted by Kalise

They had the time to go chase down an Ascian, convince them to teach them about how causing a Calamity on the Source can put everyone on their world into the aetherial sea, then teach them how to travel to the Source, travel to the Source and start the long process of trying to create an imbalance of dark enough to cause a Calamity (Knowing full well that there would be at least 1 WoL on the Source trying to prevent that).

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What makes you assume they "chased down" Elidibus and had to convince him to help? It serves his purposes far more than theirs - clean up the mess Mitron made by letting himself get defeated, and stop the encroaching flood that will render the First useless to Zodiark.

I think it's far more likely that Elidibus sought them out - either as they despaired over having caused the flood, or perhaps he was the one to bring them that revelation in the first place. "Look what a terrible mess you've made by playing the hero. A world lost to light is beyond saving.... but there is still something you can do."

He would be doing it for their sake, of course. All out of concern for the fate of their world, nothing to do with the fact it achieving his goal of a Rejoining, and absolutely no ulterior motive to convince this world's last hope to kill themselves and then go kill an equally inconvenient hero on another world.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But still... There was no indication of them trying things and failing before resorting to Ascian help.

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True, they didn't tell us whether they tried any other solutions first... but why would they? It would just be details that would bog down the flow of that scene. I'm not sure why you would expect them to go into it at that point.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Big snip.

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Making me want to revisit cutscenes. This is why I loved Zenos and his "end" had me wishing my character would have used Shoulder Tackle. He's a literal wall until you hit 70 (which is kinda funny as a healer because he cannot KO you) and it's something refreshing, to me as the player, used to being the perfect solution. Only second to our most hated foe, politics.

The WoD crew didn't have such an impact upon us because it was like we were pre-determined to win. Which is expected in a hero boy story. But. Zenos broke out of that mold for all the times we encountered him sans the last. I sympathize with them more than Zenos overall though, I just enjoy Zenos more.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What makes you assume they "chased down" Elidibus and had to convince him to help?

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Oh right, yeah, no they probably had him on speed dial in their linkshell. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I think it's far more likely that Elidibus sought them out

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Which would further go to show that they didn't try anything else before they hopped on the Ascian wagon and set sail to go murder innocents on the Source.

Well, now I'm totally sympathetic to them! /s

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Originally Posted by Iscah

True, they didn't tell us whether they tried any other solutions first... but why would they?

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To try and justify their attempts at mass murder on the Source so they don't look like complete and unempathizable assholes?

Like, if the revelation about their world being consumed by a flood of light caused by their actions as WoL's is supposed to be evoking some manner of empathy, despite their giant middle finger of "Lul we're creating a Calamity on your world because we don't give two hecks about anyone on it" then, it would be pertinent for them to show that this was a reluctant last resort.

Since otherwise, it just feels like they leapt at the chance to go kill a bunch of people on the Source and thus are no better or in fact worse than Zenos (I mean, at least Zenos only cares so far as his entertainment goes. He could have butchered every last person at Rhalgr's Reach if he wanted to, but he's not sadistic enough to go out of his way to kill people. Yet, the WoD's DO come across as sadistic if they literally didn't try anything before resorting to mass murder)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It would just be details that would bog down the flow of that scene. I'm not sure why you would expect them to go into it at that point.

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I'm not sure how it would bog things down?

A simple sentence of "We tried everything we could to stop the Flood, but nothing worked so we had to follow an Ascian's orders and renounce our flesh to come here to try and cause a rejoining of our world" would have sufficed to at least hint towards them actually being "Heroic" in their cause and not just sadistic and angsty because "Hydaelyn failed them"

I sympathize with them to a degree, but I would agree that their actions and personalities beforehand (viciously and gleefully trying to murder Alisae etc) are really kind of incongruous with their motivation (cause a calamity on the source to cause a rejoining, which seems preferable to a light void). I think their storyline was rushed, so the characterization felt like whiplash. They go from villains to morally ambiguous characters at a speed that's a bit too rapid to get used to. I love the idea of them and their tragic fate, but I think their early appearances were badly handled. Perhaps if they were a bit kinder in their earlier appearances, they would come off a lot better. Maybe they could obviously regret attempting to murder Alisae, even if they ultimately feel that their actions are justified. I don't blame them for not pursuing other options (they were actively misled by Elidibus into thinking this was their best course of action, and obviously Hydalen couldn't/didn't do anything to convince them otherwise), but I do they think they were needlessly cruel in a few early scenes, which seems almost out of character.

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A simple sentence of "We tried everything we could to stop the Flood, but nothing worked so we had to follow an Ascian's orders and renounce our flesh to come here to try and cause a rejoining of our world"

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Let's get this straight. The story has undeniably highlighted that should either of the sides dominate a shard, that shard is essentially going to be utterly blanketed in total destruction. Light, Dark, doesn't matter which - you either get all-consuming light or swallowed by void.

Pray tell, what would a band of 5 adventurers do in terms of 'looking for other options' when the entire world is pretty much white-washed by all-consuming power that is well and truly beyond them? All you have to do is think of the very first ARR cinematic with all the people of Eorzea having no option but to just watch as the world burned to get some sort of idea. Ironic, isn't it, that those characters in said cinematic are also practically identical to the WoD's? The Warrior, Paladin, Bard, White Mage and Black Mage. We know they're not the same people, but if you need help imagining the WoD's witnessing utter annihilation and feeling powerless, just watch the Flames of Truth again for an idea.

It was clear Hydealyn didn't heed them (as evidenced by the WoD conclusion with Minfilia), so now you can imagine that the force they championed pretty much shunned them after doing her dirty work, leaving them powerless. There are obviously no conventional answers to this sort of problem. Even in the ShB trailer, we (former dedicated representative of Hyde) are being attacked by beings of light (and getting soundly beaten until resorting to dark). All the hints and information to see how powerless the WoD's were in their plight on their shard is all there for you to enjoy.

As such, the solution was nothing to do with their actual shard, it was to do with bringing Dark back into some semblance of power to try and restore balance to their world - a goal we know Elidibus also seeks in his own way at the source - and something we all know is the ONLY thing keeping our own world from having a similar fate. They could never achieve this on their own world as it was blanketed in utter light. The sad reality is, the way our world is in-game is about as close to normal as it'll get, with both Light & Dark still active and constantly at each others throats to keep each other in check, except we as WoL's have been tipping the balance in favour of Hyde and now need to address the problem. Arbert and Co, however, didn't have that luxury - they won outright and netted themselves a dead world as compensation for doing everything for Hyde.

There are NO other options. It has been drilled into us multiple times. It is the very REASON ShB is happening and why we're becoming WoD's ourselves.

The severity was clear to me - and I'm of the opinion that we don't always need to have every minute detail forced down our necks, like how Elidibus and the WoD's met or what they had for supper when discussing how to best employ dark shenanigans on Eorzea, though I have a sneaky feeling that we actually WILL learn more about that in ShB down the road. Now that Elidibus has less need to kill us to restore balance (seeing as we're going WoD), I have a hunch he himself will explain things from his PoV now that our goals are (somewhat) the same. He may be an Ascian, but unlike his staunch followers of Zodiark, his concern is the balance, not Dark winning. As such, him helping the WoD's makes total sense for both them and himself. We view him as bad because his goals involve routes that go against us, but in essence, he is to Zodiark what we will become for Hyde - the middle-ground.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Pray tell, what would a band of 5 adventurers do in terms of 'looking for other options' when the entire world is pretty much white-washed by all-consuming power that is well and truly beyond them?

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... Exactly what we're about to do in the next expansion?

Create Darkness to try and bring the levels of light down? Beat up some Sin Eaters?

Essentially the exact stuff they went to the Source to do? With the express purpose of creating Darkness, in sufficient levels to create a Calamitous event.

A band of 5 adventurers... We're a single WoL that's about to go and fix their world, with help from our 5 and half Scion friends and maybe Mr CrystalTowerGuy.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

All you have to do is think of the very first ARR cinematic with all the people of Eorzea having no option but to just watch as the world burned to get some sort of idea.

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Except unlike a Calamity, they (At some point) knew the reasoning for what happened. They knew that their killing Primals caused too much Light and this over abundance of Light is now causing a flood that is consuming their world.

Ergo, is it not logical to try and reduce the amount of Light by creating Darkness? To see if that has any effect on things.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

It was clear Hydealyn didn't heed them (as evidenced by the WoD questline conclusion with Minfilia).

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That's pretty much the same for us though? We don't up and start talking to Hydaelyn whenever we want. She specifically contacts US. Outside of that one quest with the WoD's where we all used our Crystals of Light to go talk to Minfilia/Word of the Mother.

Yet, instead of us being "Lets go murder people" we're about to go and try and save not only the First, but our own world too.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

The solution was nothing to do with their actual shard, it was to do with bringing Dark back into some semblance of power to try and restore balance

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No. Their only goal was to create a rejoining so that the souls of the people on their world could enter the Aethereal Sea.

That was the goal of the WoDs. Which they were trying to bring about via causing a Calamity on the Source by creating a large amount of Darkness.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

a goal we know Elidibus also seeks in his own way

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We're not fully sure on what Elidibus' goals are. We don't know if he wants to actually maintain balance of Light and Dark or if his ultimate goal is still the same one as other Ascians, which is to cause rejoinings by shifting the balance of Light and Dark fast enough to cause a Calamity.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

and something we all know is the ONLY thing keeping our own world from having a similar fate.

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Yes, but as far as our character goes, they don't know this yet. They've only been hinted at by Mr CrystalTowerGuy about "All paths lead to oblivion" (He could have been more straight forward and said plainly "If you beat the Garleans, the world will be engulfed by Light. If the Garleans beat you, the world will be engulfed by Darkness")

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

The sad reality is, the way our world is in-game is about as close to normal as it'll get, with both Light & Dark still active and constantly at eachothers throats to keep eachother in check, except we as WoL's have been tipping the balance and need to address the problem. Arbert and Co, however, didn't have that luxury - they won.

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Actually, our world is hinted at having been tipped towards the light, not because of WoL's actions (Or the actions of Garleans and Allagan's who've been defeating Primals and Eikons for eons). But because the Source is linked to all the Shards and because of the First experiencing a Flood of Light, that light is leaking into the Source.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

There are NO other options. It has been drilled into us multiple times. It is the very REASON ShB is happening and why we're becoming WoD's ourselves.

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This is literally an oxymoron.

There can't be NO OTHER OPTIONS if your next sentence is literally us becoming WoD's and going to fix the First.

ShB's very existence and the very fact that it's all about us becoming "WoD's" and fixing the First suggests that there is in fact another option that isn't "Cause a Calamity on the Source and destroy the First in a rejoining"

Maybe we learn about something on our journey through the First... But if that is the case, then the possibility exists that that band of 5 adventurers could have also learned the same thing.

Unless ShB hinges around Minfilia inexplicably becoming a literal Goddess with magical powers far beyond what any WoL that has Hydaelyn's Blessing is capable of (Pulled out of Hydaelyn's butt because she already has taxed herself greatly in granting our character the Blessing and is too weak to do much more) then there exists an alternative that the WoD's could have explored if they weren't so eager to "Get back" at Hydaelyn for "Ignoring them" because they don't even give a damn that maybe, just maybe, Hydaelyn has her own problems to deal with, like the fact she damn near killed herself to create a Warrior of Light on the Source to try and prevent the Source from being exploited into creating rejoinings that destroy literally every other Shard (And then resurrect Zodiark)

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

The severity was clear to me - and I'm of the opinion that we don't always need to have every minute detail forced down our necks, like how Elidibus and the WoD's met or what they had for supper when discussing how to best employ dark shenanigans.

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Except, without even the smallest snippet to suggest that they had at least thought about other options, then the entire arc surrounding their turnaround from "Evil Villains of Evil" into "Empathizable Character with Tragic Backstory" becomes moot, because they never show that they're actually the "Heroes" that they refer to them being.

Like, I can't even take ther word that they even WERE Warriors of Light. Since nothing they have said or done has actually had any qualities I would attribute to a "Hero" or "Warrior of Light". All they've shown is ruthlessness and a lack of caring about how many innocent lives they will take to fulfil their own agenda.

They've been portrayed as one of, if not the most unpleasant and Evil antagonists in the game.

Heck, even ZENOS of all people garners more empathy than they do. Since, he's the byproduct of a psychological defect as well as being raised within the Garlean war machine. He's not evil by nature, it's just a matter of him being born within a nation that has evil agendas.

But the Warriors of Darkness? All they're shown to be is pure evil, malice and spite. They say they used to be Warriors of Light, but apparently they only seem to give a damn about doing the right thing if they can get a pat on the back from Hydaelyn.

Maybe Elidibus was REALLY good at convincing them there was no other alternative... But again, I'd expect a Warrior of Light to think for at least a few seconds before hopping into bed with an ASCIAN. You know, those people who seek to bring back Zodiark? The ones who are quite happy to destroy 13 worlds to ensure this happens?

You know... Much like how our character still defied the Ascians at every single turn. Even when things seemed hopeless, when the Walking Sands was destroyed, when the Banquet happened and the entire world turned against them, when the Crystal Braves revealed the traitors among them and usurped the entire organization. Sure, these weren't nearly as dire as the entire world being engulfed by Light, but they are times when things felt hopeless and we've also been talked to by Elidibus himself.

But what happens every time? We say NO. Even if it could cost us our life (See: The final solo duty for SB) we defy the Ascians. We do not let their honeyed words sway us.

Meanwhile, as far as we know... The WoD just leapt at the chance the moment Elidibus came offering a single solution. "Sure, we'll renounce our flesh and become Ascians!" "Sure, we'll commit mass murder on the Source!" "Sure, we won't question why you're helping us!" "Sure, we'll praise the one true god Zodiark, at least he won't ignore us!"

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Essentially the exact stuff they went to the Source to do? With the express purpose of creating Darkness, in sufficient levels to create a Calamitous event.

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They went to that extreme because the Darkness required to bring any kind of balance back to their annihilated home was extreme. You are comparing our in-game world, one with a balance slightly tipped in Hyde's favour, to one that was utterly destroyed thanks to Hyde's champions outright dominating Zodiark entirely to the point where she was in sole power.

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Ergo, is it not logical to try and reduce the amount of Light by creating Darkness? To see if that has any effect on things.

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Which is exactly what they deigned to do.

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That's pretty much the same for us though?

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Not entirely, but that isn't the point. The point is that having won for her, they were shunned anyway as if they were inconsequential. They had no options regarding the light, only darkness. You should understand this seeing as your grief is with the notion that they might have had alternatives. They clearly didn't. No conventional means, and no treating with light, so they treated with Darkness as the last resort.

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We're not fully sure on what Elidibus' goals are. We don't know if he wants to actually maintain balance of Light and Dark or if his ultimate goal is still the same one as other Ascians, which is to cause rejoinings by shifting the balance of Light and Dark fast enough to cause a Calamity.

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Sure, nothing is certain, but all that has been shown and gleamed from scenes and dialogue indicates his job is the balance, not victory for Zodiark. It is much like how Minfilia, now 'emissary' of Hyde, will be working with us on a similar goal, as opposed to going against us to champion Light. It's just easier to muddy Elidibus because he is currently seeking to balance the losing side and deems actions such as our death as appropriate balancing. I suspect this will somewhat change with us as WoD's. Certainly won't become friends or outright allies, but I expect there'll be a somewhat neutral face-off for story purposes, likely with some more WoD meat to further explanations.

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Yes, but as far as our character goes, they don't know this yet.

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Hello entire WoD questline, with Arbert himself asking the WoL to seek a better fate after all the revelations of what happens when Warriors of L/D serve a side wholesale and destroy their home.

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Actually, our world is hinted at having been tipped towards the light, not because of WoL's actions (Or the actions of Garleans and Allagan's who've been defeating Primals and Eikons for eons). But because the Source is linked to all the Shards and because of the First experiencing a Flood of Light, that light is leaking into the Source.

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Hence ShB, the WoD questline, the later blunt-fisted explanations of the motives behind the empire and Ascians as a whole, re Solus scene-chewing. The WoD questline has also mentioned how some experienced the opposite - total darkness. I see it as little more as enforcing the point that balance tipping in either direction = NOT good, and the WoD's themselves serving as a prime example of what happens when it tips to the very end of one side.

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There can't be NO OTHER OPTIONS if your next sentence is literally us becoming WoD's and going to fix the First. ShB's very existence and the very fact that it's all about us becoming "WoD's" and fixing the First suggests that there is in fact another option that isn't "Cause a Calamity on the Source and destroy the First in a rejoining"

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You are the one bewailing how the WoD's 'probably didn't check all avenues before doing what they did'. That is the sole point behind the following rebuttals. The difference between the WoD's and us is that said option was the only one available to them when it was all far too late, done and dusted, light had won, enjoy your doomed world. It is in seeing such examples that we have the luxury of doing it ahead of time, when the scales are only slightly tipped, NOT when one side has dwarfed another entirely and the aftermath has already taken root. We are not going to 'do what the WoDs did' because we don't have to go any similar sort of extreme. Zodiark and Hyde are still fighting over the source with some remote semblance of balance, albeit tipped.

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Except, without even the smallest snippet to suggest that they had at least thought about other options

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Aaaaand we come full circle. Previous post already discussed this. There are no conventional means of overcoming a planet doomed by one side. Said side clearly had no communication with them and likely treated them like tools, much like how we can sometimes feel about Hyde who, as you say, picks their moments, and so they learned of the balance and treated with their 'former enemies'.

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then the entire arc surrounding their turnaround from "Evil Villains of Evil" into "Empathizable Character with Tragic Backstory" becomes moot, because they never show that they're actually the "Heroes" that they refer to them being.

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To say this would be to call your own WoL a non-hero in the context of the build-up to that point. They were adventurers, like us, later becoming champions of Hyde, like us. They did what was asked of them by the light, like we've been doing. They did it so much that Hyde was totally victorious, and were rewarded with a doomed home-world, like we'd be if ShB hypothetically doesn't happen. They were very obviously made to be a mirror of ourselves and our current path, and a display of the consequences should we have done what they did (ie. continued doing what we were doing without realizing what it leads to).

These aren't characters who go from Evil McEvil and do a 180. The tragedy is that they were those heroes, like us, rewarded with nothing but doom for doing the right thing, and that the only conceivable option they had left was to go against that entirely and serve the dark, not even for a reward, but in the hopes that their normality would return. It is similar to the Warrior of Darkness angles provided in previous FF games, toying with the simple idea that you are not inherently 'good' just because you serve light, nor inherently 'evil' for serving the dark. Sometimes good intentions require an evil path, or vice versa.

It was all nice and neatly summarized by Arbert himself.

"We were blind to the truth once, so I tell you this - as one fool to another. Light, dark, it doesn't matter. What matters is how you choose to use them. We made our choice and you see what became of it, so please... Forge a different path. Seek a better fate."
/smiles
/disperses

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

I'm sorry Jaywalker but I truly, honestly have no idea where you got that impression of Zenos. Throughout the entirety of Stormblood all I ever saw was, as you put it, sir fights-a-lot. Please point me to some cutscene or something that gave you an impression otherwise because I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about to get anything like that from him. I'm not being snarky here when I ask that, I mean it.

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Hey Jeanne! No worries for the record, would’ve gotten back earlier but had a big work day!

I can try to find some scenes and break them down analytically if you’d like, RopeDrink did a pretty great job with it but honestly I do get wanting specific scenes and I’m used to breaking stuff like that down analytically. It’s just sort of like the psychobabble thing where I wanted to avoid going on too long in the thread—especially on a tangent. XD My first reaction when I saw you wanted more specific evidence was “ohgod are you sure???”

I can’t swear to it just because life gets busy, but I’ll see if I can find the specific moments I remember either on YouTube or in the journal for specific quests. Will try and either set up a new thread or link to a blog post depending on where it seems appropriate.

For what it’s worth, I totally get the feeling where you don’t get a character or much like them but then someone with a dramatically different view shows up. I hope I can at least help you not feel frustrated by Zenos technically so much even if he’s not your thing. ^^ One less thing to feel frustrated about, yeah?

You don't have to get back to me on it, don't worry! Like you said RopeDrink laid out their (and it seems your) stance well enough. Either way it's pretty off topic to the WoD topic of this thread, so I think we should probably put the Zenos discussion to rest.

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I can try to find some scenes and break them down analytically if you’d like, RopeDrink did a pretty great job with it but honestly I do get wanting specific scenes and I’m used to breaking stuff like that down analytically.

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Zenos is not a character who's subtleties can be directly linked to a small portion of scenes, hence I'd encourage said person to revisit his appearances from start to end with an open mind -- to see all the little hints.

To take note of his utter boredom with his lot in life, his reactions when actually challenged, his less than stellar opinion of his own grand father, Solus, whom he believed ran his Eikon crusade out of fear, or of Varis and the empire, who he believes is spending far too much time deliberating and playing it safe rather than, you know, going out and being empire'ish. His uninterested view of the empire as a whole, to which he has kept his own selfish research mostly hidden. The fact he has no qualm bullying or massacring his own fodder for 'weakness', from slaying troopers to the rather tense scene where he was pulling Yotsyu's hair to simply enforce a point. How the very few smiles he provides are often done only when something deliciously nasty happens (or may happen), or when he actually achieves some kind of emotional response near the climax. How his selfish goals and emotionless desires cause him to cast away the typically expected Garlean racism or superiority-complex in favour of receiving deliciously evil plans from a 'savage' rather than his own advisors, because if it gets him what he wants, why not?

How all of this is done in a consistent state of emotionless malice - not for its own sake, but more a case of him just not really knowing any better, and being totally devoid of registering the aftermath, as would be expected of someone who knows they're the strongest force in the room (without the need to advertise it), and find this to be soul-suckingly boring. I vaguely remember a scene where even Varis seemed a bit cautious of him, Varis (at the time) being the closest thing to an unaddressed final-boss (up until that was put in its place with the more recent revelations re. Ascians).

How the closest thing to a friend or emotion is elicited indirectly by someone who equalled him (with intent to stop him or even kill him if necessary), and despite this, Zenos looks at you more as a work-and-friend-in-progress, rather than an actual enemy as a result. How he damns all factions as irrelevant and lets loose revelations in his fit of near ecstasy, and not caring that he did so (because Doma, and Allag and Garlamald be damned).

How "The hunter has indeed become the hunted. And yet... There is only joy. Transcendent joy that I have never known. How invigorating, how... pure, this feeling."
-- "Is that what this was all about? All the meaningless death and destruction? So you could FEEL something!?"
-- "Meaningless? Men die that others may live. Those who survive are stronger for it. Not that you could ever understand. To have stood upon this great stage of fools... to have played my part to perfection... Oh, this... this moment... Let it be enshrined in eternity. My heart... beating out of time... So clear, so vivid, so real... So real."
/Smiles, raising his sword.
-- "Farewell, my first friend. My enemy."
/Slice.

Doesn't go into all the mini-scenes or too in-depth, and can easily be viewed a certain way if you only look directly at certain bits. As said, you'd really need to watch it from start to finish and pay attention to him to see that it wasn't just some fighting-mad-meathead with nothing going on upstairs. The guy was so subtlety demented and had such off-kilter moments that had you wondering whether he was even all that loyal to his peers outside of it just being a means to an end. He was brutal and malicious, but not for the sake of it. His own desires (or lack of) pushed decisions and actions above stereotype and loyalty to others, to a point where you sometimes didn't know what to make of him (outside of the fact that he was obviously an immediate threat - and of the empire). How he rarely (if ever) really treated those he fought as 'enemies', more a case of random flies in need of swatting. How this also mirrored to his treatment of his own allies and how little he genuinely cared for any of them due to his mental state.

It's hard not to type about him without tangents, because there's quite a few - and as someone mentioned above, there's most definitely tonnes of space for a lot of his antics to be akin to specific mental conditions. Was he literally just a plain psychopath? No. He was most definitely a driven man, yet one of the funniest comments I saw recently was someone who noticed Zenos being included in Dissidia, and how you can "Literally see the crazy in his eyes". Was he evil? Absolutely, but not for the sake of it. He's evil insofar as his actions and the reasoning behind them are wanton and against the norm, yet you have to account for the fact he just doesn't know much better, not when he self-admits having never even discovered certain feelings at all, or his out-of-game backstory regarding a not-so-nice upbringing. Was he loyal to the empire? Well, he'd do enough to make you think it, but otherwise, probably not entirely. He'd be the type who'd prefer to do his own thing when the rest doesn't suit his needs. He was also intelligent. He was rarely cocky about his prowess, of which he had an abundance, which was becoming more of a burden rather than a thing OTHER villains are often written to advertise and constantly point out in that annoying "Look at me, I'm so bad. You can't stop me, har har!" sort of way. Zenos was NEVER that. He just 'was', which made his immediate threat enticing as a character who has been casually thrown against Primals like they're a bad joke.

I could go on but meh.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

You don't have to get back to me on it, don't worry! Like you said RopeDrink laid out their (and it seems your) stance well enough. Either way it's pretty off topic to the WoD topic of this thread, so I think we should probably put the Zenos discussion to rest.

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Alright, thanks! I agree on a lot of what RopeDrink mentioned, but there are some moments where I think things were stated a little more explicitly and it can be neat to spot those. If you ever feel like it it might be fun to play detective and see if you can find stuff supporting or discrediting the interpretation (I think there was a scene where Zenos talks about feeling nothing or empty when not in combat, it might have been the royal menagerie scene but not sure) but if you don't wanna no worries. I just honestly appreciate that you were willing to ask and wanted some specific examples, imo that's pretty fair.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

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OOP JUST SAW THE ADDITION. Actually using the quotes is very helpful and offers some good concrete evidence for the guy, thank you! It was really fun reading your analysis and I agree with your observations. I figure this is just a situation where it might depend a little on whether you know what to look for and how to look for it.

I think there was a Hemmingway snippet, "FOR SALE: Baby shoes, never worn." If you take it purely at face value you might be like I don't get it, someone's selling baby shoes. So? But if you read between the lines, there's a heavy implication that there was a miscarriage or similar dead-baby tragedy. Reading Zenos works on a similar principle.

Warriors of Darkness it's interesting looking at the thread and seeing how much is critique in execution and how much is critique of concept. I'm curious if SE manages to address that weird behavior inconsistency in Shadowbringers, could be a great opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But the Warriors of Darkness? All they're shown to be is pure evil, malice and spite.

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Except for the part where as we uncover more of their story, they begin to appear more filled with regret and sadness.

I really think you need to rewatch some cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

They went to that extreme because the Darkness required to bring any kind of balance back to their annihilated home was extreme. You are comparing our in-game world, one with a balance slightly tipped in Hyde's favour, to one that was utterly destroyed thanks to Hyde's champions outright dominating Zodiark entirely to the point where she was in sole power.

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No, I'm not comparing thier world to ours.

I'm comparing THEIR WORLD to THEIR WORLD.

Shadowbringers is literally us going to the FIRST and fixing it by creating Darkness

I'm not talking about how we're fixing the Source. Which, incidentally, is in a precarious situation where it's close to being tipped to far in EITHER direction.

I'm talking about the whole fucking point of the expansion is to become WoD's on the First, to create Darkness on the First, to fix the First.

Thus, when the entire point of the expansion is about us going to the First, to create Darkness on the First, to fix the First... Then that should suggest that the "WoD's" MUST have had the same opportunity to also create Darkness on the First and fix the First.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Which is exactly what they deigned to do.

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No it isn't. Not even close.

They weren't trying to create Darkness on the First. They weren't trying to fix the First. They were trying to create Darkness on the Source, with the sole purpose to cause a Calamity so that the First would be rejoined.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Not entirely, but that isn't the point. The point is that having won for her, they were shunned anyway as if they were inconsequential. They had no options regarding the light, only darkness. You should understand this seeing as your grief is with the notion that they might have had alternatives. They clearly didn't. No conventional means, and no treating with light, so they treated with Darkness as the last resort.

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You're missing the point.

The issue I have isn't that they started to use Darkness. The issue I have is that instead of doing the logical thing, of using Darkness to attempt to FIX THEIR WORLD. They instead were using Darkness to DESTROY THEIR WORLD and at the same time murder a bunch of people on the Source.

Also "Shunned away"? Do you have any evidence of that? Since, as far as I'm aware, they never mentioned being "Shunned away" by Hydaelyn. They only mentioned that she didn't answer them and didn't magically fix all their problems so they got angry and resentful.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Hello entire WoD questline, with Arbert himself asking the WoL to seek a better fate after all the revelations of what happens when Warriors of L/D serve a side wholesale and destroy their home.

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Except that the WoD questline doesn't specifically state that our world is in trouble. In fact, Mr CrystalTowerGuy suggests that we're not even in a similar state of just having an overabundance of Light due to our actions. Since he hints that even if the Garleans win (Thus causing Darkness) that will also lead to oblivion (Likely a Flood of Darkness)

Which is not at all comparable to what happened to the WoD's where their constant killing of Primals ended up causing an overabundance of Light which then resulted in the Flood of Light.

What is being suggested on our world is that our world is very high in Darkness, thanks to the actions of the Garleans and Ascians, but we're also being affected by a lot of Light which is leaking from the First into the Source. Meaning that we're close to a Flood of Darkness by what is happening on our world, but we can't go and reverse that because the First is giving us a bunch of Light.

Which is why we have to go and fix the First, so that we can stop it leaking a ton of Light into our world and then go beat up the Garleans and Ascians to reduce the Darkness with impunity.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

These aren't characters who go from Evil McEvil and do a 180. The tragedy is that they were those heroes, like us, rewarded with nothing but doom for doing the right thing, and that the only conceivable option they had left was to go against that entirely and serve the dark, not even for a reward, but in the hopes that their normality would return.

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Again, go back and watch the WoD scenes again. Their purpose is NOT TO FIX ANYTHING. It's merely to cause a Rejoining to DESTROY THEIR WORLD but allow people on it to enter the Aethereal Sea.

They are Evil because they're doing Evil things for the sake of Evil, because they're angry that Hydaelyn didn't come and fix all of their problems, didn't answer their calls and didn't pop in to say "Careful with how much Light you're making".

Them becoming "WoD's" doesn't necessarily have to affect their personality. Just like how we're becoming "WoD's" doesn't stop us from being heroic, our goal is still to save an entire world (In fact, we're trying to save 2 worlds). We're not suddenly going to become sadists and go around killing innocents on the First because we can.

That's the thing with the WoD's. They become so bitter about how Hydaelyn won't fix all their problems, that they seemingly immediately jump at the chance to serve the Ascians and go try to cause a Calamity on the Source, even relishing the notion of being able to go fight and kill the WoL on the Source.

They go from being "Heroes" to being full on Evil. That no amount of tragic backstory will alleviate unless it's shown that they're doing these evil things reluctantly as a very last resort.

Like, sure, the situation of the First can cause empathy and I do empathize with literally every single person on the First, except for these 5 WoD's. Since, these 5 WoD's are depicted as being complete evil through and through, with not a single shred of decency in their entire body.

We're going to become WODs an dbring balance to their world.

This doesn't mean they would know how to do that on their own. They likely became WODs through Elidibus' influence, and Elidibus wants to cause rejoinings. He isn't going to help them save their world when he can use them to rejoin their world. We simply don't know enough about the WODs to assume that whatever we end up doing, is something they would have known to do. We don't even know how WE are going to do it yet. To them, they likely didn't know of any other option and destroying their world to at least send the souls of its people back to the life stream was the lesser of two evils compared to letting the flood completely overtake it. Just because restoring balance is possible doesn't neccisarily mean they were in a position to achieve it. Even if only from lack of knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Except that the WoD questline doesn't specifically state that our world is in trouble. In fact, Mr CrystalTowerGuy suggests that we're not even in a similar state of just having an overabundance of Light due to our actions. Since he hints that even if the Garleans win (Thus causing Darkness) that will also lead to oblivion (Likely a Flood of Darkness)

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Wrong.

He's saying that if we lose, the Source loses its Warrior of Light, and heads down the path toward a Calamity the way it would have had we never stepped in - basically, the way it has happened seven times now.

But if we win, we're tipping the balance too far in the other direction, and it's why Elidibus now wants us dead whereas before he was content to let us do what we were doing as it added to the chaos.

Unless you want to suggest that us so frequently winning against the Darkness, similar to the way those on the First did, is somehow, magically, creating an overabundance of Darkness...which clearly doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, the idea that they are depicted as evil through and through is directly contradicted by the following scene:

One Life for One World, Cutscene #3 and 4 - You do see anger, but you also see their sorrow at their situation, and their desperation based on the belief that they are responsible for bringing their world to the edge of destruction and are thus responsible for saving it. Unlike the other groups that belief they are responsible for saving the world, such as Garlemald, this isn't a case of them thinking they are the strongest or the best or the "true saviors" but rather the belief that they are responsible for fixing the problem they caused in the first place. Not exactly something those who are evil would do. Hell, in that scene you can even see the conflict in Arbert's eyes. This is not a path he wanted to take, and it clearly weighs heavily on him.

Those who are evil (especially in a Final Fantasy game) tend to delight in actions such as these, not clearly feel pain and sorrow at their current path.

Misguided? Absolutely. Desperate? Clearly. Pained, sorrowful, regretful, angry? Check, check, check, check.

There isn't a shred of evidence in the game that they are evil through and through.

Varis: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: That's obviously crazy, he must be possessed by an Ascian or something.

Warriors of Darkness: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: Wow, they really have a point, we should be following their lead.

The Warriors of Darkness were willing to kill off everyone still living on the First, just so that the people on the shard in general had a chance of being reborn somehow. Meanwhile, the lives of the people on the Source who were going to die in great pain and suffering during the resultant Calamity were not even taken into consideration. And since we are told that the Crystarium was built some time ago, and consists of the people who are still continuing to fight for the salvation of the First, without attempting to kill millions of others in a different dimension, I don't know why Arbert and co were so convinced that theirs was the only way.

The Warriors of Darkness were the Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (Possibly While Hard). Given how gleeful they were about trying to kill Alisaie, I could easily believe that they jumped right into Elidibus's plans in a sort of attempt to be Noble Martyrs, when a cursory examination of their actions (as opposed to whatever motivations they claimed to have) would show that it's all a selfish desire to lash out against the Source for daring to exist and survive.

It was never about saving the First. It was all about hurting Hydaelyn.

Empathy does not require agreement. Nobody is saying what the WoD's did was fine or that we're agreeing with their actions. If you mean in terms of us now becoming WoD's ourselves now, it won't be the same thing as we have better knowledge of it now compared to the WoD's, who's only source of any kind of help came from Elidibus/Darkness.

As for hurting Hydaelyn, there isn't a single impression of this given in any point of the WoD questline, other than Arbert's bitter response when Minfilia arrives at the behest of both groups and their bounty of light, having never heeded them when they actually needed it. Until that point, they explained their realization of the Hyde/Zodi balance, explained why they are doing what they're doing, and most of all, simply reinforcing how unwavering they are in achieving that goal. There was no mention of any kind of desire to put the hurt on Hydae specifically, only that they wanted to cause chaos and destruction enough to achieve their goal. "Killing primals, tormenting beastmen, hastening the birth of a new god... It's all a bit much isn't it? And frankly we don't have the leisure to do it... But killing the Warrior of Light on the other hand... That would soon plunge Eorzea into chaos!"

As far as I remember, Hyde is only mentioned once alongside Zodiark. This isn't a goal bourne of bitterness. Every single moment of dialogue referring to what befell their shard is one of sorrow and a desire to save it, NOT of vengeance of any kind.

I don't have time for a long reply, but I just wanted to point out that the situation on the First is different now to when the other Warriors were trying to save it, due to Minfilia's intervention in halting the flood.

This wasn't possible earlier, as Hydaelyn was severely weakened and unable to intervene (which the Warriors would have seen as abandonment) - but Urianger's scheme to bring the six crystal-bearers together has restored some of Her power, enough to send Minfilia to act on the First.

We also, for whatever reason, apparently have Enigma's assistance where they did not.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Empathy does not require agreement. Nobody is saying what the WoD's did was fine or that we're agreeing with their actions. If you mean in terms of us now becoming WoD's ourselves now, it won't be the same thing as we have better knowledge of it now compared to the WoD's, who's only source of any kind of help came from Elidibus/Darkness.

As for hurting Hydaelyn, there isn't a single impression of this given in any point of the WoD questline, other than Arbert's bitter response when Minfilia arrives at the behest of both groups and their bounty of light, having never heeded them when they actually needed it. Until that point, they explained their realization of the Hyde/Zodi balance, explained why they are doing what they're doing, and most of all, simply reinforcing how unwavering they are in achieving that goal. There was no mention of any kind of desire to put the hurt on Hydae specifically, only that they wanted to cause chaos and destruction enough to achieve their goal. "Killing primals, tormenting beastmen, hastening the birth of a new god... It's all a bit much isn't it? And frankly we don't have the leisure to do it... But killing the Warrior of Light on the other hand... That would soon plunge Eorzea into chaos!"

As far as I remember, Hyde is only mentioned once alongside Zodiark. This isn't a goal bourne of bitterness. Every single moment of dialogue referring to what befell their shard is one of sorrow and a desire to save it, NOT of vengeance of any kind.

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As mentioned, it's not what they said, but what they did. Arbert jumped straight into one of the more extreme solutions available, simply because an Ascian offered it to him. He didn't even bother telling us why he was doing all of this until it was narratively convenient for the story to suddenly attempt to make the Warriors of Darkness seem justified. And even after they explained their motivations (when you stop the Garuda summoning and they taunt you about them trying to kill Alisaie), they never bothered trying to negotiate. Just "your world needs to fall into chaos, our world needs to die, and that's the way of it".

He also didn't bother explaining, or even mentioning, why he helped retrieve the Eyes of Nidhogg for Elidibus, even after everything was decided and done.

So no, I don't think the Warriors of Darkness are deserving of empathy, except possibly some mild pity for how pointlessly fanatical they are about their chosen path. Not once have their actions (or their words, for that matter) shown that they had any doubt that they could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Varis: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: That's obviously crazy, he must be possessed by an Ascian or something.

Warriors of Darkness: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: Wow, they really have a point, we should be following their lead.

The Warriors of Darkness were willing to kill off everyone still living on the First, just so that the people on the shard in general had a chance of being reborn somehow. Meanwhile, the lives of the people on the Source who were going to die in great pain and suffering during the resultant Calamity were not even taken into consideration. And since we are told that the Crystarium was built some time ago, and consists of the people who are still continuing to fight for the salvation of the First, without attempting to kill millions of others in a different dimension, I don't know why Arbert and co were so convinced that theirs was the only way.

The Warriors of Darkness were the Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (Possibly While Hard). Given how gleeful they were about trying to kill Alisaie, I could easily believe that they jumped right into Elidibus's plans in a sort of attempt to be Noble Martyrs, when a cursory examination of their actions (as opposed to whatever motivations they claimed to have) would show that it's all a selfish desire to lash out against the Source for daring to exist and survive.

It was never about saving the First. It was all about hurting Hydaelyn.

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It's not that we think the WOD's were RIGHT to do what they did, but more we can empathize with their motive, trying to save the souls of THEIR world from the flood of light, and so far as they knew, they had only this one option. Even Uriangr didn't tell them of another option he was playing both sides, and I doubt ELidibus was giving them any options that didn't end with his own goals furthering with a rejoining.

The difference between them and Varis is largely motive. They're trying to save the souls of their world, and know they have to do something messed up to do it, but press on. They even gave up their own lives in order to transfer to the First. It's smaller in scale, but simlar to the Vulture in spiderman homecoming. He' wrong to sell alien technology to black market criminals, but the way he got screwed over you can see why he would go that path.

I think the lead up to the big confrontation was sloppily handled, but I did feel for them in 3.4 itself when everything came out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Varis: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: That's obviously crazy, he must be possessed by an Ascian or something.

Warriors of Darkness: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: Wow, they really have a point, we should be following their lead.

[...]

It was never about saving the First. It was all about hurting Hydaelyn.

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The difference is in the details, namely:

Warriors of Darkness: Willing to cause a Calamity to Rejoin their Shard to the Source before it's erased from existence entirely out of blind desperation.

Varis: Willing to cause all the Rejoinings so he can create a "perfect master race," kill the Ascians, and be the King of Everything put the reins of history back in the hands of man.

The death and destruction Varis is attempting is sixfold greater than what the Warriors of Darkness would have caused, and driven by his ego as much as it is a desire to do something (ostensibly) good (if not moreso).

The Warriors of Darkness just wanted to preserve something, anything, of their world - Minfilia going over there stopped or slowed it, but before that it was just a matter of time before Norvrandt disappeared into nothingness and they didn't know how much time they had left. There's obviously some bitterness toward Hydaelyn there, but their main goal doesn't seem to have been hurting Hydaelyn for its own sake - it was just a means to an end. I look at their situation a lot like the Gaia / Terra dynamic from IX, except instead of filtering out the Source's souls and replacing them with the First's so the Source would eventually become the First in all but name (as Terra tried to do to Gaia in IX), they just wanted to inject their own world's souls into the Source's lifestream to live on in spirit. Problem is that would require causing a Calamity... though the specifics on it are fuzzy. (How would they choose which Shard was Rejoined? Were the people of Norvrandt OK with this? Etc.)

Both are highly objectionable courses of action, but the Warriors of Darkness' blind desperation is much more understandable than Varis' delusions of grandeur (the specifics of which are also quite fuzzy, but that's another matter).

Varis may very well be possessed by Solus, thus everything he supposedly said can be taken with a hefty pinch of salt. That he has frequently been shown to be frustrated with the Ascians makes it unlikely that he would suddenly go along with doing exactly what they desired. He has also been shown to be extremely muted in his emotions so far with the deranged smile at the end of Stormblood being very similar to that of Solus' own. In short, it could go either way.

The Warriors of Darkness, meanwhile, are also not as cut and dry in their situation. That we did not sit down and drink tea with them to work out their exact motivations is largely irrelevant - they were forced into unpleasant circumstances and it has now been confirmed that we will see more of them during Shadowbringers. I do not doubt that it will shed more light (heh...) on their circumstances and motivations.

Ultimately there are plenty of characters who we do not come to fully understand until much later in the game. Arenvald and Ilberd are but two examples.