Hairstyle Concerns for The New Races

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

It seems kinda illogical to create/implement hairstyles separately for hrothgar, viera and the rest of the races for each patch now. They are literally give themselves 3x the work whenever they introduce new hairstyles.

I mean if for some reason the 2 new races are limited to their own exclusive hairstyles then what's the point to even create new races if it can't be included together with the existing races. I think if for some reason we don't see them on release i would expect at least 5.1 if not i think we might have a problem.

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Not only that but they kinda have to create extra amount of hair/or fur pattern for them if they give out hairstyles as a reward, otherwise these races are completely left out. And imo there is nothing on the Viera that feels like they could not have the other hair. Also if they are limited why not tell us that? What if someone bought hairstyles but cant use them anymore?

Honestly if both are that limited then I truly wonder why to even bother with them. Why not create more customization options for existing races instead of that.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

At this time, the Viera hair options have a little icon on the bottom stating "Toggle Bangs On/Off" with the mouse button:

As far as an official source on the fringe-toggle, I'd like to say this is something that had been mentioned back when they were talking about the expanded character creation for Viera, but at this point I'm struggling to find a source. My memory is quite horrible, so I'm not sure where I had heard it originally. If I find something, I'll post it :) It could very well be that they had just stated that styles would have the option of with or without bangs, and it morphed into it being an actual toggle. :3

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This seems to be a wrong translation because in the german benchmark it says that you can right click to use a pin and then if you click on the box at the top only those will be shown that have a pin. So it seems that its simply a way to show only those hairstyles that you want.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

This seems to be a wrong translation because in the german benchmark it says that you can right click to use a pin and then if you click on the box at the top only those will be shown that have a pin. So it seems that its simply a way to show only those hairstyles that you want.

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Ahhh, well that makes a lot more sense!

Gotta say I'm underwhelmed :(
I feel apart from fur colouring there isn't really much to diversify these guys. I know all races have very limited options, and Miqo'te especially have the same thing where most people tend towards the same one or two faces. But with hair being tied to face, I see the vast majority of people using the 2 upper right ones. The nose / jaw / facial features just don't really offer enough differentiation. Shame because I really like the rest of their design, torso not as doughy as Roes, the patches of hair on arms, legs and chest.

I was interested in trying out Hrothgar, but the restrictive hairstyles is a dealbreaker for me, personally. Hoping the hairs are not tied to faces at launch, but I suspect they will be, or else why put them in like this?

Oh well, no fantasia money from me I guess.

I feel like viera might have some hope of being opened up to more hairstyles, but hrothgar are kind of up the creek since they don’t even have a section in the creator for hairstyles; it’s just face and fur. Also when you go into the facial features tab there is one that toggles an extra piece of hair that is linked to whatever hairstyle your face has. How would they even allow more hairs? List them all under the face category with each face/hair combo as a separate entry?

I think they made the decision to tie hair to faces on these guys and that’s that, just like the aura face/horn situation. I’ll honestly be shocked if they end up giving even 1 or 2 more styles let alone the huge number all other races have.

As far as the aesthetician goes, I would imagine fur color will be alterable, and maybe they will let you swap between the hairstyles that are available for the face you have. So like you would essentially just be able to choose the one other option for your face that you aren’t currently using?

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Originally Posted by Chimeric

I'm noticing the palette on the left that usually maps to the hair color is instead mapped to the accents, while the less saturated colors on the right seem to be mapped to the main hair color:

https://i498.photobucket.com/albums/...psgpruwnbo.jpg

I'm a little worried that even if we do get the hairstyles implemented later or even at launch, we won't be able to recreate the same hair colors as Viera and the other races

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It's very subtle, but there are differences between the hair colours of the current races. The selection looks the same in the colour picker, but the displayed colour itself on the hair can sometimes be less or more vibrant than other races. That being said I agree that the colour palette selection is VERY different for hrothgar.

I suppose in the case of hrothgar it is different because their fur is their "skin" and some of the mane/hair colour is on the body so I guess it's treated kind of like skin, and as we know skin tones among the current races have distinct palettes from one race or tribe to another.

But none of this explains why hrothgar hair is tied to faces. This is a very strange decision. Surely it would make more sense to allow each face to have any hair their race can use? Like every other race?

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

We really have no clue where this is going seeing how something like this is unprecedented.

As been pointed out hair styles are something you can win from real life contest and also pay real life money for and earn through in game events. Would be a huge over sight to tell everyone who has paid money for or won a hairstyle they can't use it if they become either Hrothgar or Viera. Like the Cloud hair ... "sorry people who won this hair, you can't use that as these 2 races".

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The viera could well be just unfinished due to how hair is chosen being an identical process to the current races. However for hrothgar it is definitely not. I feel like tying hair to faces is a strange decision considering you can buy hairstyles from the mog station, they're awarded for finishing content, they're prizes, etc. Being unable to use any of that hair would be a deal breaker for so many players.

Perhaps the hrothgar will be able to change their hair like everyone else in the 5.0 character creation...but this begs the question "why tie hairstyles to faces if this was not the intention in the first place?". Maybe it was a decision they decided to scrap. Or well at least I hope they will scrap it.

And also let me add how AWKWARD it is to choose hair for hrothgar. You have to constantly switch back and forth between faces and facial features to see all the variations of the hair.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But none of this explains why hrothgar hair is tied to faces. This is a very strange decision. Surely it would make more sense to allow each face to have any hair their race can use? Like every other race?

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Maybe one day SE will separate their manes from faces, but I have a feeling that they'd still have very limited mane options. Reason behind this is because of their ears and how every mane they have currently is designed around them.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The viera could well be just unfinished due to how hair is chosen being an identical process to the current races. However for hrothgar it is definitely not. I feel like tying hair to faces is a strange decision considering you can buy hairstyles from the mog station, they're awarded for finishing content, they're prizes, etc. Being unable to use any of that hair would be a deal breaker for so many players.

Perhaps the hrothgar will be able to change their hair like everyone else in the 5.0 character creation...but this begs the question "why tie hairstyles to faces if this was not the intention in the first place?". Maybe it was a decision they decided to scrap. Or well at least I hope they will scrap it.

And also let me add how AWKWARD it is to choose hair for hrothgar. You have to constantly switch back and forth between faces and facial features to see all the variations of the hair.

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I tend to try to take things at face value.

Viera have normal human faces unlike the HROTHGAR. They weren't gonna get glasses until HROTHGAR got them to.

In the benchmark Viera have only unique race hair like the HROTHGAR.. also like them they only have 8 hair styles and a version that adds a lil bit to it. ( Viera hair and Viera hair plus bangs is no different than HROTHGAR mane and mane plus a braid or side burns or w/e)

They were both described as having unique heads.

Seems clear to me that they are a packaged deal. If one expects one to get more hair it seems like the other would get more as well. So yeah, I'm kinda expecting both to release with only what they have or that plus mog station hairs and the contest reward styles.

Question is what's gonna happen with HROTHGAR when we meet the hair style man. Could see them allowing us to cchange everything but the race pretty much seeing how you gotta change face to change manes.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

They were both described as having unique heads.

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I think in the viera's case it has much more to do with the ears than the head itself. SE did very little work on the au ra horns as far as hats are concerned. They just clip through everything. The position of the viera's ears makes doing this impossible because it frankly would look terrible with most head gear, and people would immediately draw the comparison between them and miqo ears, which work fine with hats due to ear holes.

The actual heads of the viera are not too different in shape to any of the existing races. The head is attached to the neck in more or less the same way as the current females and their posture is very upright. However this isn't the case for the hrothgar due to their hunched posture. Some of the longer hairstyles would clip like crazy into their backs. However their ears are small enough to fit into almost any hat.

So they both have problems the devs would need to overcome, but pretty different problems.

However, aside from time constraints, I don't see why the viera shouldn't have access to most of the current hairstyles. The ears are the only complication and it's basically a non issue for most of them. Making the hairstyles fit on their heads correctly wouldn't be much more work than it was to do so for au ra.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Seems clear to me that they are a packaged deal. If one expects one to get more hair it seems like the other would get more as well. So yeah, I'm kinda expecting both to release with only what they have or that plus mog station hairs and the contest reward styles.

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Hrothgar is a very different story to viera. Though it's obvious a great deal of the current hairstyles could work on them, the fact that their current hair is right now being presented as locked with faces is making me concerned that we will be forever stuck with what we see now. If the hair wasn't tied to faces, I would mostly assuming that the rest of the hairstyles are merely delayed.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Question is what's gonna happen with HROTHGAR when we meet the hair style man. Could see them allowing us to cchange everything but the race pretty much seeing how you gotta change face to change manes.

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While it would be nice to not have to fantasia to change hair, I don't think this would do much to ease the concerns of people who don't want to be stuck with such a tiny amount of choice and be forced to change their face just to change their hair. For years players have been asking for au ra horns to be separated from faces. Presenting hrothgar hair in that manner is a step backwards.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Question is what's gonna happen with HROTHGAR when we meet the hair style man. Could see them allowing us to change everything but the race pretty much seeing how you gotta change face to change manes.

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I'm not sure that they can control which categories are available for different races. I think it might just be that set categories of data can be changed, regardless of what that data is used for on the particular character model.

The best evidence for this is that changing eye colour requires a Fantasia, but Au Ra can adjust their limbal rings because that data is usually for racial tattoos (treated like face paint, I guess!) or earrings.


For reference, the normal categories that can be changed are:
- hairstyle
- hair colour
- tattoos / ear clasps / limbal rings (turn on/off and select colour)
- eyebrows
- lip colour
- other features
- face paint (design and colour)

And the remaining categories that can only be edited in the character creator:
- height
- bust size for females (no male equivalent)
- skin colour
- face
- jaw
- eye shape
- iris size
- eye colour
- nose
- mouth
- ear shape / tail shape
- ear size / tail length / muscle tone


I can't find the screenshot showing the list of customisation options for Hrothgar, but I gather that those first three options are fur pattern, fur colour and tattoos. Assuming it's consistent, there's nowhere to put an accessible "face/hairstyle" editable category. They've either used the face category, or quite possibly repurposed the tail shape category - Miqo'te have eight options and it's affected by the hair colour setting, plus it has the 'two rows of four options' layout while the faces (for Midlanders who have 5-6 options) are in three rows of two.

It's also possible that this is the real reason why Hrothgar can't wear hats - it's not that they ran out of time to model them, but that this repurposed design setup doesn't let them do it. There are essentially two (back-end) versions of normal hairstyles - the one we see normally and a "hat version" with some parts of the hair removed. It's possible that they can't store the same kind of variable model for Hrothgar, and so they functionally cannot wear hats without their mane clipping all through it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I think in the viera's case it has much more to do with the ears than the head itself. SE did very little work on the au ra horns as far as hats are concerned. They just clip through everything. The position of the viera's ears makes doing this impossible because it frankly would look terrible with most head gear, and people would immediately draw the comparison between them and miqo ears, which work fine with hats due to ear holes.

The actual heads of the viera are not too different in shape to any of the existing races. The head is attached to the neck in more or less the same way as the current females and their posture is very upright. However this isn't the case for the hrothgar due to their hunched posture. Some of the longer hairstyles would clip like crazy into their backs. However their ears are small enough to fit into almost any hat.

So they both have problems the devs would need to overcome, but pretty different problems.

However, aside from time constraints, I don't see why the viera shouldn't have access to most of the current hairstyles. The ears are the only complication and it's basically a non issue for most of them. Making the hairstyles fit on their heads correctly wouldn't be much more work than it was to do so for au ra.



Hrothgar is a very different story to viera. Though it's obvious a great deal of the current hairstyles could work on them, the fact that their current hair is right now being presented as locked with faces is making me concerned that we will be forever stuck with what we see now. If the hair wasn't tied to faces, I would mostly assuming that the rest of the hairstyles are merely delayed.



While it would be nice to not have to fantasia to change hair, I don't think this would do much to ease the concerns of people who don't want to be stuck with such a tiny amount of choice and be forced to change their face just to change their hair. For years players have been asking for au ra horns to be separated from faces. Presenting hrothgar hair in that manner is a step backwards.

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You're not really catching what I'm saying.

Its not a matter of how easy it would be or not, its the fact that through out all this they have treated the HROTHGAR and Viera as a packaged deal.

Like how they said the viera would not be able to wear head gear, not even glasses on the npcs. They didn't go "well, we can at least make glasses easily work on viera so lets let them have those in the mean time and not give HROTHGAR anything". Nope, they didn't seperate their options for that. .

For the hair I see no reason to not think its the same. As in, even if we think it's easy to just make the hair work for Viera I think its not gonna happen unless it happens for both. As it stands neither have the option for none racial hair and to give one all the shared hair styles the other would have to be given the same or something as well.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

You're not really catching what I'm saying.

Its not a matter of how easy it would be or not, its the fact that through out all this they have treated the HROTHGAR and Viera as a packaged deal.

Like how they said the viera would not be able to wear head gear, not even glasses on the npcs. They didn't go "well, we can at least make glasses easily work on viera so lets let them have those in the mean time and not give HROTHGAR anything". Nope, they didn't seperate their options for that. .

For the hair I see no reason to not think its the same. As in, even if we think it's easy to just make the hair work for Viera I think its not gonna happen unless it happens for both. As it stands neither have the option for none racial hair and to give one all the shared hair styles the other would have to be given the same or something as well.

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That's blatantly false as the Viera have more hairstyle options.

The 'no headgear' thing is a time constraint.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

That's blatantly false as the Viera have more hairstyle options.

The 'no headgear' thing is a time constraint.

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A single Viera face may have more hairstyle options because of how the Hrothgar have them tied to Faces but they have overall the same number of hairstyle (minus 1 but it's "The Fran" one) across the Race.

Viera have 8 hairstyles with each of them having a bang version and a bangless version (except the first one which has one more with "The Fran") for a total of 16(+1) = 17 hairstyles.
Hrotghar have 4 Faces with 2 hairstyles each = 8 BUT you can had bits to them with Facial Features making it 16 hairstyles.

The hair limitation is surprising and a bit disappointing, because hairstyles are a collectible people pay money for and grind content for. It probably comes down to memory limitations. If that's the case then they could have tied fur patterns to faces (like Au Ra horns are tied to faces) but let the hairstyles vary independently. Maybe we could have also changed the color of hair highlights instead of pattern color and just have all patterns in black.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

You're not really catching what I'm saying.

Its not a matter of how easy it would be or not, its the fact that through out all this they have treated the HROTHGAR and Viera as a packaged deal.

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Well I think the part with the headgear was because they still had to be changed for both races and since there is a huge amount of headgear they decided to do it later and do it together. The hair situation is imo different because unlike Hrothgar the Vieras still have their normal hair customization just less while the Hrothgar have none at all. So I dont see how they could not just say that thanks to their heads they wont get them but at least they got the fur. While Vieras got nothing else instead of more hair and at the same time have no visible reason to not have the other hair since their head is not different than other races.

If they really use the argument of a package deal for this then I will just shake my head and even as a fan of beastily races wonder if it wouldnt have been better to just get both Vieras..

In the end if we dont even get the other hairstyles for Viera than we have two big limited new races...which they then did not tell us beforehand..

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Well I think the part with the headgear was because they still had to be changed for both races and since there is a huge amount of headgear they decided to do it later and do it together. The hair situation is imo different because unlike Hrothgar the Vieras still have their normal hair customization just less while the Hrothgar have none at all. So I dont see how they could not just say that thanks to their heads they wont get them but at least they got the fur. While Vieras got nothing else instead of more hair and at the same time have no visible reason to not have the other hair since their head is not different than other races.

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As been stated they have the same number of hair styles. The Viera can highlight their hair (AND their bang/ non-bangs versions have different highlights, this is not something I see used in any other instance of a hair style going from bangs to no bangs) but the Hrothgar get fur patterns that they can pick and color.

Looking at the fact that the last time they added a new race we could Bench Mark all the shared non-mogstation hair on them AND the fact that Viera were given glasses along with Hrothgar and the fact that they share the same number of hair styles with features unseen in other races it seems clear that they are walking this "unique head" road together.
I mean, your logic seems to be that "Viera have a hair tab" but that's the thing ... they have that NOW yet still don't have the other hairs outside their race styles. And for some reason their 8 race hairs have bangs/ no bangs versions AND different highlights for each version which no other race has and has been pointed to as a unique thing for them.

It's really only wishful assumption to think that things will change at this point and suddenly Viera will get all these things without the Hrothgar getting anything.
I've personally accepted that this is it and either both get the Mog-Station hairs (Cause Money. SE should know many people buy Mogstation glam purely for the hair when that's included) and contest hairs or they get what they got now.

(What the Hrothgar currently have doesn't make up for the Viera getting all the hair in this game and them being left out. Even if they don't add hair styles they need to add more of something lol)

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If they really use the argument of a package deal for this then I will just shake my head and even as a fan of beastily races wonder if it wouldnt have been better to just get both Vieras..

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Oh, no ... the Hrothgar are clearly the stars of this show. Like Yoshi said, it was Female Hrothgar or Viera. So yeah, maybe they shoulda just added Female Hrothgar instead.
I LOVE that Viera are basically made for making pretty black and brown girl toons in this game but I'd love to see what they think Female Hrothgar would look like given the amazing work on the men.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

You're not really catching what I'm saying.

Its not a matter of how easy it would be or not, its the fact that through out all this they have treated the HROTHGAR and Viera as a packaged deal.

Like how they said the viera would not be able to wear head gear, not even glasses on the npcs. They didn't go "well, we can at least make glasses easily work on viera so lets let them have those in the mean time and not give HROTHGAR anything". Nope, they didn't seperate their options for that. .

For the hair I see no reason to not think its the same. As in, even if we think it's easy to just make the hair work for Viera I think its not gonna happen unless it happens for both. As it stands neither have the option for none racial hair and to give one all the shared hair styles the other would have to be given the same or something as well.

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This doesn't really explain why hrothgar have hairstyles tied to faces while viera do not. In this aspect they are not treated as a package deal. At least for the benchmark they have deliberately given hrothgar more restrictive hair options, while viera have been given the standard (which is more flexible) method of choosing hair.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Viera have 8 hairstyles with each of them having a bang version and a bangless version (except the first one which has one more with "The Fran") for a total of 16(+1) = 17 hairstyles.
Hrotghar have 4 Faces with 2 hairstyles each = 8 BUT you can had bits to them with Facial Features making it 16 hairstyles.

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But it doesn't feel like sixteen hairstyles because you can't have each of them for every face. You can say au ra have a choice of four horn styles, but if a player only likes one face then that's going to feel like they have a choice of one horn style. Separating horns from faces is frequently requested. Players don't like it. Tying hairstyles to faces is even worse than this.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This doesn't really explain why hrothgar have hairstyles tied to faces while viera do not. In this aspect they are not treated as a package deal. At least for the benchmark they have deliberately given hrothgar more restrictive hair options, while viera have been given the standard (which is more flexible) method of choosing hair.

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Agreed. They don't have to fall on this "packaged deal" thing the other poster is claiming. They could easily come up with any excuse in the book for why Hrothgar faces/hairs are restrictive, while still allowing for further hairstyles with Viera.

The real problem with headgear for Viera would be the gigantic ears, that Miqo'te/Elezen, for example, receive custom helmets for. If they wanted to do it properly they would have to modify tons of headgear to fit the Viera head - specifically because of the ears, they could clip the ears through the top, OR they could do what they did and only have specific headgears available.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This doesn't really explain why hrothgar have hairstyles tied to faces while viera do not. In this aspect they are not treated as a package deal. At least for the benchmark they have deliberately given hrothgar more restrictive hair options, while viera have been given the standard (which is more flexible) method of choosing hair.

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I don't have to explain any of that, I don't make the game and we don't know what shd will give them on release.

I'm just pointing out the math. 8 HROTHGAR hair styles that can have things added to them for a total of 16 hair appearnaces, just like Viera. Neither has shown a single member to have a shared hair style yet and both were held from glasses at the same time. They have both always been said to have "unique heads".

Maybe when the expansion comes out we will find that HROTHGAR can change faces. Maybe both get all the hairs but they divide their version of the hairs amoung the different faces or mimic them with the features tab? Maybe this is it for both, Who knows.

What you need to ask is why does Viera only have this many options and a unique hair feature if they're gonna have more than HROTHGAR in the future. If you think there's more to that then assume there's more to HROTHGAR to is what I'm saying.

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But it doesn't feel like sixteen hairstyles because you can't have each of them for every face. .

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Doesn't really matter what it feels like to you, the math doesn't lie. 16 for the men race and 16 for the women. Men are given unique fur pattern options but no highlights, women are given highlight changing versions of their hair, both things no other race has. If there's more to come we'll see but yeah, they're very much even Stevens right now

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This doesn't really explain why hrothgar have hairstyles tied to faces while viera do not. In this aspect they are not treated as a package deal. At least for the benchmark they have deliberately given hrothgar more restrictive hair options, while viera have been given the standard (which is more flexible) method of choosing hair.

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Thats my view on this too. If they are a package deal then truly make them one by only allowing both to choose the hair only through the faces. By making Viera different from that you not only already changed the package deal but also opened them up to questions on why they cant get more hairstyles.

And for me they dont even need to be the same. Just go and tell us these things beforehand and explain why it was not possible with Hrothgar.

I think the current hairstyles clip with viera ears, that's why they weren't able to put them with the current global hairstyles.

They have said they are working to make helmets and stuff work with them though so I think hairstyles may go along with that and we will see them later.

Seems like this is turning out to be another case of male viera ... As in people not taking something at face value and convincing themselves they will get something that wasn't shown just cause it wasn't spelt out to them directly by yoshi.

It's really simple, this is what we have now. If you think viera will get more on release then you should probably assume the same for the other. If you think this is all there is for HROTHGAR then apply the same to Viera.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Seems like this is turning out to be another case of male viera ... As in people not taking something at face value and convincing themselves they will get something that wasn't shown just cause it wasn't spelt out to them directly by yoshi.

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I think it's called using your head to think logically. Tell me, in all these 5 years of FFXIV when has SQEX treat their customers like crap as in you bought a mogstation item and in this case when you can't use it anymore SQEX just go aww too bad? I'm pretty sure yoshida and his dev team has treated us pretty well if not more than other companies out there. Likewise what you have said can be redirected back to you since all you're doing is just speculating too neither yoshida nor the dev team has come out and said that this are the only options this 2 races get so why are you so adamant about this?

You must enjoy worrying! Seems kind of a silly thing to be concerned with IMO.

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Originally Posted by Dalmacus

I think it's called using your head to think logically. Tell me, in all these 5 years of FFXIV when has SQEX treat their customers like crap as in you bought a mogstation item and in this case when you can't use it anymore SQEX just go aww too bad? I'm pretty sure yoshida and his dev team has treated us pretty well if not more than other companies out there. Likewise what you have said can be redirected back to you since all you're doing is just speculating too neither yoshida nor the dev team has come out and said that this are the only options this 2 races get so why are you so adamant about this?

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... Have you bothered to read what I'm saying?

I've said serveral times that I/ we dont know what's gonna happen but this is all we have to go on. I've said that for all we know both HROTHGAR and Viera will have all the hairs on release, or that maybe they will only have the ones you pay for or win or earn in events cause that's money and it makes no sense to tell these players they can't buy glam for the hair anymore... Or maybe this is it, this is all we get. I'm cool with any case personally.

My only point has been this strange idea that Viera will get the hair but they will just screw over HROTHGAR. If there's more to come for one I think its clear that there's gonna be more for the other to cause of the why they've been handled.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Doesn't really matter what it feels like to you, the math doesn't lie. 16 for the men race and 16 for the women. Men are given unique fur pattern options but no highlights, women are given highlight changing versions of their hair, both things no other race has. If there's more to come we'll see but yeah, they're very much even Stevens right now

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This math doesn't add up nicely. Every viera face can have any viera hairstyle. This is not the case for hrothgar. Claiming that the math doesn't lie in this context is like telling two groups of people that they have an even amount of clothing, but in the case of one group they fit only half of them. So while both groups have the same amount of clothing, only one group can wear everything. The math only looks tidy when you don't bother to think about the end user experience.

And it does matter what it feels like to me because I am a player. This content was made for players. And as a player I am concerned about the very restrictive hair options for hrothgar. If hrothgar cannot even share hairstyles among themselves, then naturally it's going to make players worry if they can use other hairstyles they unlocked or bought. I'm not really too worried about this with viera given how you choose hair for them is identical to the existing races, but in the case of hrothgar we got the au ra horn treatment, and we have seen those horns to only ever be locked to faces.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Seems like this is turning out to be another case of male viera ... As in people not taking something at face value and convincing themselves they will get something that wasn't shown just cause it wasn't spelt out to them directly by yoshi.

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The difference is there has been a well known lore reason, since before FFXIV was even a game, for why male viera are never seen. There has literally been zero lore as to why hrothgar/ronso cannot share hairstyles among themselves. So you can argue that players should expect male viera to be unplayable, but you can't make that argument for the restrictions on hrothgar hair. No one had any reason to think that hrothgar hair would be given the au ra horn treatment.

Not directly the same, but tons of us complained that horn types were tied to faces with Au Ra and I remember a lot of push back saying it didn't matter. Now I just find it a bit ironic. If they're going to "fix" Hrothgar and Viera, they better give the same treatment to Au Ra.

The head/hairstyles issue has me really on the fence about switching to Hroth. I have been looking forward to them as a race since they were announced, but knowing that those limited customizations will be even more limited using the aesthetician worries me.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This math doesn't add up nicely. Every viera face can have any viera hairstyle. This is not the case for hrothgar. Claiming that the math doesn't lie in this context is like telling two groups of people that they have an even amount of clothing, but in the case of one group they fit only half of them. So while both groups have the same amount of clothing, only one group can wear everything. The math only looks tidy when you don't bother to think about the end user experience.

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The math is 16 for both races. That's literally the numbers.


We don't know how they will handle this come release so you can only assume how much freedom they give us to change things. Tis why just looking at the numbers is important. Sure, the Hrothgar have restrictions as we see them right now, but that doesn't change that both races currently only have 8 hair styles and 8 alts to them along with unique traits for them.

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I am concerned about the very restrictive hair options for hrothgar. If hrothgar cannot even share hairstyles among themselves, then naturally it's going to make players worry if they can use other hairstyles they unlocked or bought. I'm not really too worried about this with viera given how you choose hair for them is identical to the existing races, but in the case of hrothgar we got the au ra horn treatment, and we have seen those horns to only ever be locked to faces.

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My point is that if you're concerned about the Hrothgar you should be concerned about the Viera. If you assume there are more to come for Viera then do the same here ... cause really, we have no clue what to expect

We do know, how ever, that the mishap with the replaced picture on the web site was head 1's hair on head 3 and looking at them I see lil prob with fixing them to work on each head. But we'll see in a month I guess.

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The difference is there has been a well known lore reason, since before FFXIV was even a game, for why male viera are never seen. There has literally been zero lore as to why hrothgar/ronso cannot share hairstyles among themselves.

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.. LOL, what are you talking about?

I'm referring to this ...

-SE shows Viera in vid.
-We only see females.
-Show final race concept art at the end, only females.
-People (including myself) still assume we're getting males.
-People (not me) get shocked when they find out that them not showing males means there are no males once the Hrothgar come.

In this case its ...

-SE refer to both Viera and Hrothgar having unique heads.
-Holds off on giving either head gear until a later date and gives both races the same number of hair styles and alts to them outside of the Fran helmet.
-SE only show Viera with their racial hair styles in promotional media.
-Release benchmark where they only have their 8 racial hair styles and alts. Also their hairstyles have a unique trait that others don't.
-Last time the released a Benchmark for a new race that race had access to all the shared non-mog hairs in the benchmark.
-People think it's safe too assume they will get the others for the unique head Viera come release for some reason.

Like I said, I try to take things at face value. I don't know what to expect but I wouldn't assume one race is gonna get left in the dust and that the other is safe just cause of a tab.
If you are concerned for Hrothgar you should also be concerned for Viera to cause there's not reason assume everything's gonna be roses for them on release.

Anyway ... as things are I can't help but feel there's more to this then we know. Hoping for the best, prepared for the worse.

i wouldn't call it 16 hair styles
there just facial features no different to adding scales on au ra if they go and add them to "hair" to make them a option for all faces like viera sure but right now there just add ons

these guys are cool i hope Hrothgar and viera get the hair the rest of us have earn,bought and unlocked over the years

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

My point is that if you're concerned about the Hrothgar you should be concerned about the Viera. If you assume there are more to come for Viera then do the same here ... cause really, we have no clue what to expect.

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I agree with Penthea on this: there is far more reason to be concerned with Hrothgar than Viera, given how the options are presented. Even if the benchmark represents what we are getting at launch for both races, there's the fact that you (currently) cannot change the face option with the aesthetician. Because hair is tied to face for Hrothgar, this means you'd have to fantasia every time you wanted a new hairstyle (unless SE changes this, which they have given no indication that they are doing). With Viera, at least you can change your hair regularly, and if they later on add in the missing hairstyle options, you don't need a fantasia to use them.

It's possible that SE will have some kind of workaround in the aesthetician, but there's no reason to assume that at this point, so yeah, while there is concern about hair for both races, Hrothgar looks to be in a more worrisome state.

Also, not a concern, more of a gripe, how the heck did no one on the team working on hroth think of a "bald" (not furless) hairstyle? I'd gladly play face 1 with no hair.

I honestly think that this makes me want that they only chose 1 single race even more, since if they did chances are they would have as much customization as the others, and while it's easy to make a female viera stand out its super hard to make a male hrot that stands out, so I wish SE only did 1 but to its fullest potential and with both genders. Guess we will have to see if they decide to add new hairstyles and the missing genders, lets hope so I guess

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Originally Posted by Brynne

I agree with Penthea on this: there is far more reason to be concerned with Hrothgar than Viera, given how the options are presented. Even if the benchmark represents what we are getting at launch for both races, there's the fact that you (currently) cannot change the face option with the aesthetician. Because hair is tied to face for Hrothgar, this means you'd have to fantasia every time you wanted a new hairstyle (unless SE changes this, which they have given no indication that they are doing). With Viera, at least you can change your hair regularly, and if they later on add in the missing hairstyle options, you don't need a fantasia to use them.

It's possible that SE will have some kind of workaround in the aesthetician, but there's no reason to assume that at this point, so yeah, while there is concern about hair for both races, Hrothgar looks to be in a more worrisome state.

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Oh, I agree that the Hrothgar situation is far more perplexing on how it will be tackled in game with the final version. Will they basically allow you to change everything but your race and height to make up for this when you go to the aesthetician? Will they make it so that the hairs aren't locked to their face come release seeing how that replaced promo image from some time ago shows that hair can fit other heads with a bit of work? Will both races be given all the hair and Hrothgar simply have their racial styles stay divided up between the faces? Will the aesthetician have a "face tab" for the Hrothgar that acts as their hair selection (locked to w/e base head you picked) and just give them a number uniquely beastly versions of hairs you unlocked in game?

IDK, but I do find that from a game design PoV it makes absolutely no sense to release a race that demands players pay $10s to change their hair style when playing. Nor does it make sense to take away all the rewards and monetary hair styles people have earned when they play either of the new races. We're kinda very much in unprecedented territory here ... sure, the aesthetician doesn't currently allow XYZ but he also doesn't currently have a "fur" tab and this is the first time hair has been the only difference in some "face options".

As it stands both are showing a severe lack of hair options compared to the last race benchmark and if you are to assume there's more to the story for one it should be assumed that the other has more to be discovered as well. Even more so when the other would require a $10 potion to change styles if nothing with the aesthetician changes.

I'm actually curious if viera can use lighting hair and noctis and other hair you have to buy :o

Much more concerned with the Hrothgar than the Viera.

Viera, at least, can change hairstyles without changing their face. All might not be available on the Benchmark, but there's no reason to believe they won't have every hairstyle available at launch (if not shortly™ thereafter).

Hrothgar, on the other hand... yeah, pretty miffed hairstyle is tied to their face. That's one of the biggest customization options, and if a good deal of headgear isn't available for them at launch (if ever) they're going to get samefaced pretty quickly.

Holding off on the doomsaying, but this is not a good portent.

Given the fact they're working against the clock I wouldn't hold it against them if they keep working on hairstyle issues for a later date, as was the case for helmets and glasses, but I'd say at the very least Mog Station/Event hairstyles should be prioritized over the normal ones, since people actually paid for those.

After mulling over the different customization options, I've come to the conclusion that I prefer being able to change the pattern and colors of fur to being able to change hair styles and colors. The former offers a lot more variety. Ideally we should be able to do both independent of the selected face but it's very likely going to be one or the other because of memory limitations. It's amazing how much you can do with fur options and I hope we can have them available at the aesthetician since they replace hair customization for Hrothgar.

I had some fun with my current favorite character trying out how many styles I can wear by changing only the fur, tattoos and face paint.

Here's the original panther design:
https://i.imgur.com/fLX9uqZ.png

Tiger, snow leopard, black lion and cheetah styles seem nice.
https://i.imgur.com/YyPfj2Z.jpg

Less realistic styles can look pretty amazing as well. The right one is "snowflake obsidian" by MelodyCrystel. Really beautiful! I'll probably wear the blood runes on the left when leveling DRK for that extra edge.
https://i.imgur.com/Ly2Cv7f.png

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Originally Posted by Reinha

After mulling over the different customization options, I've come to the conclusion that I prefer being able to change the pattern and colors of fur to being able to change hair styles and colors. The former offers a lot more variety. Ideally we should be able to do both independent of the selected face but it's very likely going to be one or the other because of memory limitations. It's amazing how much you can do with fur options and I hope we can have them available at the aesthetician since they replace hair customization for Hrothgar.

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My issue with this is that wearing armour will cover up fur patterns/colours, so what is the point of all that customization if its hidden ?

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

IDK, but I do find that from a game design PoV it makes absolutely no sense to release a race that demands players pay $10s to change their hair style when playing. Nor does it make sense to take away all the rewards and monetary hair styles people have earned when they play either of the new races. We're kinda very much in unprecedented territory here ... sure, the aesthetician doesn't currently allow XYZ but he also doesn't currently have a "fur" tab and this is the first time hair has been the only difference in some "face options".

As it stands both are showing a severe lack of hair options compared to the last race benchmark and if you are to assume there's more to the story for one it should be assumed that the other has more to be discovered as well. Even more so when the other would require a $10 potion to change styles if nothing with the aesthetician changes.

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From a game design perspective, and from perspective on the existing characters and their current state of customizations, it indeed makes zero sense and could possibly be a killer for Hrothgar when a player is given so much more customizability concerning the other races. I want to say the benchmark is what we get, on the other hand this sort of logic of perpetually spending $10 is illogical and of ill design.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

My issue with this is that wearing armour will cover up fur patterns/colours, so what is the point of all that customization if its hidden ?

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The same could be said about hair and helmets though. I understand that the players who want to enjoy the fur choices without being in various stages of undress will be out of luck.