Regarding Mentors in Mentor roulette, ''going offline'' than requeuing again

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Yeah, nah to that one.

Being a mentor and helping new players is fine, but helping people trying to do synced EX content is gonna be a pass for me. Once you hit level 50 you shouldn't need mentors or the NN anymore, and I ain't spoon feeding anyone anything. Mentors help new players, not lazy players.

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It is not "lazy" to ask what mechanics a fight has or how to be better at something. No-one in this game learned anything entirely on their own.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

Generally, from my personal experience, Mentors who get dropped in EX trials do not give advice beyond "What are you doing here?! You should have watched a video! Don't queue for the content if you don't know it!." People do not care about helping or teaching whatsoever.

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I don't think I've ever seen a mentor expect the newbies to know how to do an EX fight. Usually the knee-jerk response is "Why would someone queue for this in the Duty Finder? Sheesh. Use the Party Finder." Most comments along these lines are curt and/or impolite, but the best mentor advice to give in EX trials is to inform them about the Party Finder. Sure, if the mentor knows how to do the duty and the newbies genuinely want to learn, of course they should explain things, but more often than not, EX trials are a case of "I just want a clear, and I don't know about and/or don't understand the Party Finder."

The last time I got an EX in a mentor roulette, the tank (not a mentor!) wouldn't even wait 10 seconds between pulls to explain anything. Clearly they didn't want any advice.

Ex trials really shouldn’t be in mentor roulette honestly. That’s just asking to waste everyone’s time. I’m not a mentor, but if I were I would literally be completely useless if I landed in an ex fight because the only ones I have unlocked are the old ones that I was able to clear solo unsynced. I pretty much know none of the mechanics or how it’s supposed to be played in a group, all I know is run in and kill it in under a minute until you get a mount. So just because someone is a mentor doesn’t actually mean they know how to do certain fights since there is no requirement saying you have to have cleared certain things unsynced, and even if they have they may not remember it well.

As far as disconnecting, unless someone says something in chat indicating they are intentionally dcing then a GM really shouldn’t do anything. You can punish people for losing connection whether or not you think you are certain it was intentional based on the timing. All a GM will be able to see is that there was a disconnect.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

It is not "lazy" to ask what mechanics a fight has or how to be better at something. No-one in this game learned anything entirely on their own.

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It's lazy to ask to be spoon-fed information, and what I mean by this is simply to request the entire fight.

Asking questions isn't lazy.
Expecting me to teach you a fight from start to finish because I am a mentor, however, is lazy.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

You don't go into Seiryu EX in mentor roulette anyway so your point is a little moot. However I fail to see how it's a bad thing to ask how the mechanics work? Explaining a mechanic is not the same as holding someone's hand to make sure they execute it properly.

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It's called an analogy, there's no difference between Seiryu EX and Thordan or Sephirot EX synced. If you don't expect it from current end-game fights you shouldn't expect it from older end-game fights.

If they "dc" come online again and immediatly log out again you can prove it

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

Mentors are specifically there to help people who want help. Mentor roulette is not for Mentors to get a quick clear and call it a day. If people can't handle that they might be in a duty for an hour then they shouldn't run the roulette. Simple as that.



The entire point of being a Mentor is to help players who want to be "spoon-fed information." We became Mentors to help people, not to decide who is or isn't ready for content.

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I'm fine with helping people but like I said these ex fights are VERY HARD to explain to people unless you can get then in discord and I'm not really willing to go that far nor are most people willing to join a discord. So in return almost ALL primal ex fights end in a vote dismiss after 20 minutes or 60mins of just wiping over and over and no progress made. That's assuming someone doesn't leave right at the start and you then sit there waiting for the spot to fill for 20 minutes.

They should add a new party finder category for these where mentors can join them and help, by doing so that mentor could get double credit or something.

This is not a matter of "quick clears for mount" but more time spent resulting in absolutely zero progression. It's 100% a waste of time 95% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It's against the rules if you can prove it.



To be fair, while they should remove it or put the mount somewhere else, EX trials shouldn't be in the Mentor Roulette in the first place - so I can understand the frustration of getting an EX trial.

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Ex trials should absolutely be in Mentor Roulette.
The mount, the crown, the achievements - maybe save for a title or two, should not have been.

I hung up my crown a long time ago. I don't want to hurt anymore.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It's lazy to ask to be spoon-fed information, and what I mean by this is simply to request the entire fight.

Asking questions isn't lazy.
Expecting me to teach you a fight from start to finish because I am a mentor, however, is lazy.

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So there ARE youtube videos and outright text walkthroughs available online. Granted. But asking someone for a runthrough of a fight in a game when you're playing that game isn't exactly lazy. Yes I would expect that request to be polite but if you're berating people for asking for help with a game in the game, I dunno.. maybe "mentor" isn't a title you deserve. Not everyone knows where or how to look for the guides and honestly some people don't really learn without doing. It's considerate to try and figure out a fight/dungeon before you drag randoms into it, but it's part of the game itself to learn the mechanics in game. Someone had to do it before the walkthroughs came out and just because the walkthroughs are there doesn't mean it's required reading.

"Hi, I've just unlocked this, any advice before we start?"
This is your chance to minimize headache and time wasted. If you refuse or wish to leave that is your prerogative, however youtube and walkthroughs shouldn't be compulsory.

it's because of this why I feel anything like this occuring in mentor roulette (disconnect, leave, kick, vote abandon, etc) should lock you out of duty finder for the remainder of the timer left on the duty plus 30 minutes (or if it can't be scaled based on duty/time remaining, just a flat out 2.5 hour lockout). The idea is to make the penalty for leaving greater than the penalty for staying. And the reason I encompass all the ways, is to ensure mentors can't abuse things like dc kick to avoid the penalty. Yes, it will be abused by non-mentors who know that kicking a mentor will lock themn out for 2 and a half hours, but I feel that is the lesser of two evils here.

As for ex primals in the mentor roulette: Absolutely keep them in. I'd also argue for adding in Coils (except SCoB Savage, since there's a great story attached to Coils). Alexander and Omega normal modes are already in the roulette so no need to add Savage modes.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Ex trials should absolutely be in Mentor Roulette.
The mount, the crown, the achievements - maybe save for a title or two, should not have been.

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I still don't agree that EX trials should be on the roulette, but I do agree that all the perks of being a mentor, besides having unlimited access to the NN shouldn't be there, or at the very least - the mount should be somewhere else, with the mentor option being a harder way (but more rewarding if you want to help people) way to obtain it.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

So there ARE youtube videos and outright text walkthroughs available online. Granted. But asking someone for a runthrough of a fight in a game when you're playing that game isn't exactly lazy. Yes I would expect that request to be polite but if you're berating people for asking for help with a game in the game, I dunno.. maybe "mentor" isn't a title you deserve. Not everyone knows where or how to look for the guides and honestly some people don't really learn without doing. It's considerate to try and figure out a fight/dungeon before you drag randoms into it, but it's part of the game itself to learn the mechanics in game. Someone had to do it before the walkthroughs came out and just because the walkthroughs are there doesn't mean it's required reading.

"Hi, I've just unlocked this, any advice before we start?"
This is your chance to minimize headache and time wasted. If you refuse or wish to leave that is your prerogative, however youtube and walkthroughs shouldn't be compulsory.

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Their is quite a difference between helping someone, and carrying them.

One of the things that are on a disconnect here is EX trials.
Mentors are meant to help new players get into the game.

If you go into the NN (at least on Siren anyways) what sprouts are looking for are things like basic controls, settings, how to do limit breaks, questions about when to heal, when to use cooldowns when tanking, how to get into crafting & basic ways to craft, etc. They aren't looking to be carried through EX trials that they stand no chance in, or anything like that.

People come here with the assumption that a mentor is there to be the end-all of raiders, and be able to carry the team of people who have no clue what they are doing through Niddhog EX BECAUSE THEY ARE A MENTOR AFTER ALL. If I step into a trial, and someone doesn't know something - I'm super down to give advice, but once again, I'm not going to carry them through the entire fight.

Their are several things broken about the mentor system, including what players expect a mentor to do. In truth, mentors should be considered a role (with no rewards) that helps NEW players get pushed in the right direction. Once you hit 50, you shouldn't need the NN, or mentors anymore.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Their is quite a difference between helping someone, and carrying them.

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I agree, but you only mentioned telling someone the fight, not carrying them. If you give someone a synopsis of the fight and a couple wipes to learn it, that's not carrying if they're pulling their weight as best they can while learning.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

One of the things that are on a disconnect here is EX trials.
Mentors are meant to help new players get into the game.

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A direct quote from the introduction of the program:

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Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers.

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Quite open to interpretation (obviously since these threads keep popping up.) but new in my mind means people who haven't experienced the current content you're in. Everyone has to do an encounter for the first time eventually.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

If you go into the NN (at least on Siren anyways) what sprouts are looking for are things like basic controls, settings, how to do limit breaks, questions about when to heal, when to use cooldowns when tanking, how to get into crafting & basic ways to craft, etc. They aren't looking to be carried through EX trials that they stand no chance in, or anything like that.

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the NN on Sargatanas is ... different. It's pretty hostile and unhelpful in general.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

People come here with the assumption that a mentor is there to be the end-all of raiders, and be able to carry the team of people who have no clue what they are doing through Niddhog EX BECAUSE THEY ARE A MENTOR AFTER ALL. If I step into a trial, and someone doesn't know something - I'm super down to give advice, but once again, I'm not going to carry them through the entire fight.

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That goes back to what you feel carrying is. If someone is doing their best and contributing under their role (to the point nobody is picking up their slack) then I don't feel it's carrying, even if a few wipes ensue.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Their are several things broken about the mentor system, including what players expect a mentor to do. In truth, mentors should be considered a role (with no rewards) that helps NEW players get pushed in the right direction. Once you hit 50, you shouldn't need the NN, or mentors anymore.

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A hard definition and a separation of the title from any desirable rewards is necessary. Agreed.
I'd still consider myself new to content I haven't done yet though. If I've never experienced the mechanic I need to be told about it's existence in some way, even if it's by eating it at least once. Yes most competent players will teach themselves, but having someone in there who's flagged to be the "ask me about.." dude or dudette is a good thing.

I feel I need to clarify, if a new player is asking questions & trying to do the fight, that is indeed not carrying. I should have put more detail in my response.

I do feel SE needs to clarify further what a mentor/new player is to them.

I believe I am a good example. I skipped out on Alexander content (currently at The Arm of the Father - skipped so me and friends could do it together), and some level 50 dungeons (honestly just didn't even know they existed). I, however am a mentor because the requirements are so low.

Mind you, I have finished the story completely, some EX trials, etc - but since I would be new to The Arm of the Father - should I be considered a new player in that regard?

Personally I believe it's a mentors job to teach new & returning players the basics of the game, but obviously these threads are going to keep popping up until SE gives at least some clarification. I also wouldn't consider mentors veteran players either, considering how easy it is to become a mentor.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I feel I need to clarify, if a new player is asking questions & trying to do the fight, that is indeed not carrying. I should have put more detail in my response.

I do feel SE needs to clarify further what a mentor/new player is to them.

I believe I am a good example. I skipped out on Alexander content (currently at The Arm of the Father - skipped so me and friends could do it together), and some level 50 dungeons (honestly just didn't even know they existed). I, however am a mentor because the requirements are so low.

Mind you, I have finished the story completely, some EX trials, etc - but since I would be new to The Arm of the Father - should I be considered a new player in that regard?

Personally I believe it's a mentors job to teach new & returning players the basics of the game, but obviously these threads are going to keep popping up until SE gives at least some clarification. I also wouldn't consider mentors veteran players either, considering how easy it is to become a mentor.

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It is far to easy and also too much of a checklist rather than a Certification. It needs to have some sort of rating system in it.

I would consider you "new" if you were in an instance you'd never played before. Considering the game gives extra rewards because of the fact that people who haven't run the instance before are there, I think it's encouraging patience and understanding... or at least tolerance.

we agree though that the current mentor program is flawed and.. pretty useless. People with a true mentor mentality get lumped in with the sea of jerks who are just in it for the stuff.

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Originally Posted by Derio

You cant prove if someone disconnected intentionally. Perhaps they had a power outage, Comcast internet outage, etc. People should not get punished for that and since there is no way telling, SE has no fix for that.

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There are patterns though.

In the first place, your requirement is to stay online. I find it weird that "power outages" or regular disconnects are supposed to be a thing - and let's be honest: In 99% of the case this is nonsense, just like people that always get dyslexia when you point out their absolutely horrible chat conversations. Not sure in what 3rd world country you live to have power failures... But then, I remember my vacation in Croatia with 2 power failures per evening...

Would you stick to your telephone company when you get interrupted calls every couple of minutes? We sure did not in the 60s, 70s, 80s. If you live in the very outback and use Dial-Up (not to mention the updates) or ISDN, fine then, but neither is a reason for disconnects as these forms of connecting as stable (or unstable) like anything else. If you run on a 1-bar WiFi strenght and all such stuff is on purpose, on your end. So please do not use this to screw over random people that wait ages for a particular dungeon. Should spend the subscription cost to find a better ISP or resort to turn-based/browser games then. Even satelite connections - although expensive, but if you wish to play MMORPGs in the Australian outback - are stable.

And if so, then do not play a multiplayer game - if you can't meet the one actual requirement for a realtime online game: Being online. (Sorry to put it bluntly.)

The patterns I mentioned: Leaving or "Disconecting" directly after a duty has been found. Yeah, magically disconnecting at 89:55 on the counter of a 90 minute dungeon several times a week is surely easy to detect. If you get screwed for not accepting queues thrice a day and get a lockout, why not expanding it to these roulettes?

Sincerely,

https://imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

There are patterns though.

In the first place, your requirement is to stay online. I find it weird that "power outages" or regular disconnects are a thing - and let's be honest: In 99% of the case this is nonsense, just like people that always get dyslexia when you point out their absolutely terrible chat conversations.

Would you stick to your telephone company when you get interrupted calls every couple of minutes? We sure did not in the 60s, 70s, 80s. If you live in the very outback and use Dial-Up (not to mention the updates) or ISDN, fine then, but neither is a reason for disconnects. If you run on a 1-bar WiFi strenght and all such stuff is on purpose, on your end. So please do not use this to screw over random people that wait ages for a particular dungeon. Should spend the subscription to find a better ISP or resort to turn-based/browser games then. Even satelite connections - although expensive, but if you wish to play MMORPGs in the Australian outback - are stable.

And if so, then do not play a multiplayer game - if you can't meet the one actual requirement for a realtime online game: Being online. (Sorry to put it bluntly.)

The patterns I mentioned: Leaving or "Disconecting" directly after a duty has been found. Yeah, magically disconnecting at 89:55 minutes several times a week is surely easy to detect. If you get screwed for not accepting queues thrice a day and get a lockout, why not expanding it to these roulettes?

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The problem is someone , somewhere is going to have an outage out of their control that will mimic this "pattern" and be summarily punished.

Would you like to finally get online after a week of crappy internet due to sunspots or cruddy weather (I work for an ISP, these are both very common causes of disconnects and are hard to predict and often continue for days) and finally remain logged on to find you've got some punishment debuff going so now you cant play the game you've been trying to play all week? A lot of places in the US have only 1 or two ISPs available to them, even if your internet is crappy sometimes it's all you got.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It's lazy to ask to be spoon-fed information, and what I mean by this is simply to request the entire fight.

Asking questions isn't lazy.
Expecting me to teach you a fight from start to finish because I am a mentor, however, is lazy.

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I would like to clarify that when I said "spoon-fed" it was in reply to the person I was quoting, who was treating giving information as "spoon-feeding". I fail to see how teaching someone a fight is enabling laziness. No-one knows how fights work when they come out and very few people go through the trouble of bashing their heads against them to learn for themselves. Watching videos or reading guides is no different from you telling them how in the moment. I feel that far too many people think this is other people wasting their time which, if true, means you probably shouldn't be a mentor. You took on that role to sacrifice your time to help others. If you can't give it then don't do mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

It's called an analogy, there's no difference between Seiryu EX and Thordan or Sephirot EX synced. If you don't expect it from current end-game fights you shouldn't expect it from older end-game fights.

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I don't expect it from current end-game fights because you can't DF them at the beginning. New trials are only accessible from Raid / Party finder for a time. However, generally speaking, people do run learning parties for new content. People do not do that for old content. You can't compare new to old in that way.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

I would like to clarify that when I said "spoon-fed" it was in reply to the person I was quoting, who was treating giving information as "spoon-feeding". I fail to see how teaching someone a fight is enabling laziness. No-one knows how fights work when they come out and very few people go through the trouble of bashing their heads against them to learn for themselves. Watching videos or reading guides is no different from you telling them how in the moment. I feel that far too many people think this is other people wasting their time which, if true, means you probably shouldn't be a mentor. You took on that role to sacrifice your time to help others. If you can't give it then don't do mentor roulette.

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Ah, I had clarified above I don't think giving someone info as they try their best is carrying at all.
I should have clarified further in an earlier post.

As I have never done the mentor roulette, I can't say how things usually go down, or how often EXs end up as the duty - but I stand by thinking mentors should be there to help teach new players/returning players & new/returning players alone. I also think the rewards should either be moved, or obtainable somewhere else. Tying achievements & a mount to a roulette will always have players looking to obtain them as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

Ah, I had clarified above I don't think giving someone info as they try their best is carrying at all.
I should have clarified further in an earlier post.

As I have never done the mentor roulette, I can't say how things usually go down, or how often EXs end up as the duty - but I stand by thinking mentors should be there to help teach new players/returning players & new/returning players alone. I also think the rewards should either be moved, or obtainable somewhere else. Tying achievements & a mount to a roulette will always have players looking to obtain them as fast as possible.

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Ah. Well yes new players to a fight was implied I had thought. Still if someone wants a quick refresher i'm not adverse to running down the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Spratchet

It is not "lazy" to ask what mechanics a fight has or how to be better at something. No-one in this game learned anything entirely on their own.

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While I agree with this sentiment in general, I think for hard fights (recent and current primals in particular) it's not fair to the other 7 members to go in blind. It doesn't display very much respect for other people's time. If they join a random group and say nothing they're wasting other people's time by contributing unnecessarily to wipes, and if they want a full rundown they could have easily googled any number of YouTube or written guides.

For easy to medium content I'm generally fine with giving them a tldr version or letting them figure it out.

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

While I agree with this sentiment in general, I think for hard fights (recent and current primals in particular) it's not fair to the other 7 members to go in blind. It doesn't display very much respect for other people's time. If they join a random group and say nothing they're wasting other people's time by contributing unnecessarily to wipes, and if they want a full rundown they could have easily googled any number of YouTube or written guides.

For easy to medium content I'm generally fine with giving them a tldr version or letting them figure it out.

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For the most part, most pieces of content can be done with a quick summary, even some Extreme trials. I think a lot of people come to expect that while leveling up and are blindsided when something much harder comes along since they've been able to queue for everything since lvl 16 and have probably been able to complete things with little to no effort. So I mean, I get it.

So I am going to say this thread is probably why NA numbers for savage clears are so low, there really is no community sense to this game. A lot of people seem to thing that explaining a mechanic or helping players with something they are struggling with is burdensome and enabling lazy play. But then wouldn't expecting someone to make a detailed video guide to every mechanic of a raid also be enabling lazy players. After all they are doing the work to give you every moment of a raid that you wouldn't be able to finish otherwise. What would you do if they all said they weren't going to do it anymore, everyone has to go through themselves and figure it out?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

So I am going to say this thread is probably why NA numbers for savage clears are so low, there really is no community sense to this game. A lot of people seem to thing that explaining a mechanic or helping players with something they are struggling with is burdensome and enabling lazy play. But then wouldn't expecting someone to make a detailed video guide to every mechanic of a raid also be enabling lazy players. After all they are doing the work to give you every moment of a raid that you wouldn't be able to finish otherwise. What would you do if they all said they weren't going to do it anymore, everyone has to go through themselves and figure it out?

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Learn it with a very insular raiding community that doesn't easily welcome newcomers?

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

While I agree with this sentiment in general, I think for hard fights (recent and current primals in particular) it's not fair to the other 7 members to go in blind. It doesn't display very much respect for other people's time. If they join a random group and say nothing they're wasting other people's time by contributing unnecessarily to wipes, and if they want a full rundown they could have easily googled any number of YouTube or written guides.

For easy to medium content I'm generally fine with giving them a tldr version or letting them figure it out.

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Eh, in my experience it won't be just one person going in blind. It's been quite the contrary for me; there's usually only 1 or 2 people that have actually done the ex trial before and that's including me.

Still, I find the whole "ex trials shouldn't been in mentor roulette" mindset kind of ironic since it's one of the few pieces of content where a totally blind party can't effortlessly fumble their way to success.