Disappointed in the turn the Garlean Empire has taken

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Originally Posted by NoblePigeon

Using technology to fight is the main reason that I love Machinist. Because I love guns and steampunk tech in my fantasy.

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Totally agree. FF, Dragonquest, even Tales of all have mechanical aspects since their very first games and I totally welcome them especially in XIV.

Hell the fact we're getting Gunbreakers in the next expac makes me even more excited as I'd love to see how the Gunblade technology works in from a lore perspective but also how it is in gameplay.

Once we eventually get to Garlemald as well it'll be even more mech integrated which will lead to hopefully another more Garlemald inspired job or just allow us to harness more magitek aspects from them for our current jobs.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Totally agree. FF, Dragonquest, even Tales of all have mechanical aspects since their very first games and I totally welcome them especially in XIV.

Hell the fact we're getting Gunbreakers in the next expac makes me even more excited as I'd love to see how the Gunblade technology works in from a lore perspective but also how it is in gameplay.

Once we eventually get to Garlemald as well it'll be even more mech integrated which will lead to hopefully another more Garlemald inspired job or just allow us to harness more magitek aspects from them for our current jobs.

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Gunbreakers and Garlean gunblades are unrelated. The job and its technology were developed independently by the Hrothgar, as an evolution of Queen Gunnhildr's royal guard.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Gunbreakers and Garlean gunblades are unrelated. The job and its technology were developed independently by the Hrothgar, as an evolution of Queen Gunnhildr's royal guard.

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I'm sorry my third paragraph meant more so for the game itself as a whole , as we'll head there at some point (hopefully)

I've already looked into the differences between them and why Yoshi-P went with the Squall style sword with a gun(between gameplay and lore), as opposed to the Garlean gun with a sword bayonet style.

What could be interesting is a healer with garlean tech maybe. I feel another gun using ranged physical job may feel redundant, so for a garlean job it may be down to that or a melee dps. And I'm not sure if they want to add a fifth melee dps, we'll have to see.

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Originally Posted by Jyera

They were duped, but they were also the ones choosing what they did with that lie. To me it would be kind of like saying the truth of the Dragonsong War was a weak twist because Ishgardians spent a thousand years acting on a very fundamental lie engraved into the foundation of their society.

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One important distinction between Garlemald's war and Ishgard's is that the former's war is OFFENSIVE while the latter is DEFENSIVE. The Garleans have the option to stop anytime they want; if they were to use their invasion forces to instead shore up their own defenses and to police the territories they've already conquered, they'd be practically invulnerable. The fact that they press ever onward, ignoring the mounting evidence that their incursions are causing more problems than they're solving, makes them quite unsympathetic.

In the case of Ishgard, they COULDN'T stop. Beyond the first century of conflict, the Great Lie ceased to matter. Knowing the truth would not quell Nidhogg's rage or stop his assault. While it was used at the beginning to cement the power of the Church and the noble houses, in later years the secret was kept because its revelation would have been a crippling blow to the morale of Ishgard, who wearily continued their struggle bolstered by the belief that they were innocent victims suffering under the torment of an ancient and evil monster. This makes them - even the ones safeguarding the lie - much more sympathetic.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The fact that they press ever onward, ignoring the mounting evidence that their incursions are causing more problems than they're solving, makes them quite unsympathetic.

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I disagree with this some what. We still don't really have a picture of what occupied territories are like, only areas with a heavy resistance that can cause trouble and give tribes a window to summon Primals... Lakshmi only showed up when we started taking ground, not before. Susano was basically summoned as a direct result of our actions too, and Tsukuyomi was another Ascian plot against us... Other than that? Not a whole lot of Primals... Compare that to Eorzea, most of which weren't even summoned in response to Garlemald, they were summoned as a response to the City-States being dumb... When they were summoned against Garlemald, Gaius actually made incredibly short work of them, thanks to Ultima Weapon. Bismarck is the only real bad case I can think of in game, I guess you could throw Thordan in that mix.

While we weren't directly involved, Rabanastre was also a result of heavy resistance, and even then Primals weren't involved... It honestly seems like, once an area is locked down, Primals stop being an issue within Garlean territory. We'd need a lot more "Life under Garlean rule" stories to know for sure, but it seems like they only cause a problem during conquest, after it? Their conquest achieved its goals.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

One important distinction between Garlemald's war and Ishgard's is that the former's war is OFFENSIVE while the latter is DEFENSIVE. The Garleans have the option to stop anytime they want; if they were to use their invasion forces to instead shore up their own defenses and to police the territories they've already conquered, they'd be practically invulnerable. The fact that they press ever onward, ignoring the mounting evidence that their incursions are causing more problems than they're solving, makes them quite unsympathetic.

In the case of Ishgard, they COULDN'T stop. Beyond the first century of conflict, the Great Lie ceased to matter. Knowing the truth would not quell Nidhogg's rage or stop his assault. While it was used at the beginning to cement the power of the Church and the noble houses, in later years the secret was kept because its revelation would have been a crippling blow to the morale of Ishgard, who wearily continued their struggle bolstered by the belief that they were innocent victims suffering under the torment of an ancient and evil monster. This makes them - even the ones safeguarding the lie - much more sympathetic.

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I'm talking more specifically about their agency in the matter and how they became embroiled in a belief system they were willing to perpetuate--as opposed to being mindless mooks for Ascians to play house with. I wasn't actually commenting about whether or not Garlean ideology was justifiable or sympathetic (it's not), so much as how functionally it was a route that they chose. That there was information withheld, in other words, didn't render their course of action as a non-choice.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I disagree with this some what. We still don't really have a picture of what occupied territories are like, only areas with a heavy resistance that can cause trouble and give tribes a window to summon Primals... Lakshmi only showed up when we started taking ground, not before. Susano was basically summoned as a direct result of our actions too, and Tsukuyomi was another Ascian plot against us... Other than that? Not a whole lot of Primals... Compare that to Eorzea, most of which weren't even summoned in response to Garlemald, they were summoned as a response to the City-States being dumb... When they were summoned against Garlemald, Gaius actually made incredibly short work of them, thanks to Ultima Weapon. Bismarck is the only real bad case I can think of in game, I guess you could throw Thordan in that mix.

While we weren't directly involved, Rabanastre was also a result of heavy resistance, and even then Primals weren't involved... It honestly seems like, once an area is locked down, Primals stop being an issue within Garlean territory. We'd need a lot more "Life under Garlean rule" stories to know for sure, but it seems like they only cause a problem during conquest, after it? Their conquest achieved its goals.

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It's actually not quite that simple. Even if Imperial conquest actually prevented primal summons (and it doesn't really - remember that Spoken races are also capable of summoning, and as Ilberd demonstrated, will do so in desperation), the path that leads to the least amount of summons is the ideal one... and the least amount is zero, not the "few incidentals" that occur as a result of Imperial aggression.

But to get at the "most summons are the fault of the Eorzean City-States," let's do a rundown...

• Ifrit: Summoned by the Amalj'aa to conquer more territory.
• Titan: Summoned by the Kobolds to protect / avenge them upon the Lominsans.
• Garuda: Summoned by the Ixal to kill their enemies.
• Leviathan: Summoned by the Sahagin to conquer more territory.
• Ramuh: Summoned by the Sylphs out of fear of the Imperials.
• Shiva: Summoned by Ysayle to try putting an end to the Dragonsong War.
• Good King Moggle Mog XII: Summoned by the Mogglesguard because... ? (I don't remember why, exactly.)
• Ravana: Summoned by the Gnath to help them conquer more territory.
• Bismarck: Summoned by the Vanu Vanu because...? (Really wasn't explained beyond "Ascians taught them how.")
• King Thordan: Summoned by Archbishop Thordan VII to end the Dragonsong War (and conquer the world).
• Warring Triad & Odin: Collectively summoned aeons ago to protect ancient peoples from the Allagan Empire.
• Shinryu: Summoned by Ilberd to free Ala Mhigo and avenge the Ala Mhigan people upon Garlemald.
• Susano'o: Summoned in a freak accident.
• Lakshmi: Summoned by the Ananta in response to Fordola's blunder.
• Tsukuyomi: Summoned as the direct consequence of Imperial machination.
• Enkidu: Unwittingly summoned by Gilgamesh.

Now, there are tensions between the city-states and beast tribes, but rarely does it raise to open hostilities as a consequence of something the Eorzeans did (Limsa's treaty-breaking seizure of Kobold lands being the only apparent example). That tension is exacerbated by the threat the Empire poses - before the Imperial assault on Silvertear they were pretty open with trading their crystals to the Eorzeans. After? Not so much; they hoard them to summon if they feel threatened.

In short, even if the Empire's methods were able to prevent any and all summons after their conquest (and they're not), as long as summons are carried out during invasions that's not an ideal outcome. The ideal outcome is zero, and the Empire's methods aren't conducive to that at all.

(Are the Eorzeans blameless? Not at all, but rarely is a summon their direct fault.)

OP, your whole thought process is the very reason why Garlemald is currently in a state of unrest and on the brink of a civil war. Many in Garlemald also believed in the motto "Freedom through technology", and the ways of the empire as we knew them in ARR. Rumors are rampant that the Crown Prince is possessed by a 'demon', and Varis fears that he will have to fight for his place on the throne once more. It's imploding, PLUS they have the resistance to worry about. Primals can still be summoned by their respective tribes at any given time, and they no longer have the Scions to indirectly assist them with this threat. Basically, things over there are totally fooked right now.

By all means and purposes, I think the way you are feeling is intentional and not a mishap of how the story is being written. I'm with you as well as even though I would never go along with Gaius' previous motivations, I always respected them. The Garleans are clearly shown to not be all bad, or even evil. Considering that what actions could be deemed as such are a direct result of an Ascian pulling the strings, it makes even more sense to respect the Garleans.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

What could be interesting is a healer with garlean tech maybe. I feel another gun using ranged physical job may feel redundant, so for a garlean job it may be down to that or a melee dps. And I'm not sure if they want to add a fifth melee dps, we'll have to see.

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Chemist would be perfect.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Many in Garlemald also believed in the motto "Freedom through technology", and the ways of the empire as we knew them in ARR.

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Everything else aside, I think it's been mentioned before, but that motto is Garlond Ironworks. Cid is a Garlean expatriate, yes, but I really don't think we have any evidence that it's anything but the Ironwork's motto. I subscribe to the idea in the Omega storyline, Nero just reminds Cid of his own words rather than any Garlean creed (before that comes up again).

Lore Book 1 gives the official Garlean motto as "Nos sumus manus, Nos sumus deus." [We are the Hand, We are the God.]

I don't think we've met enough born and bred Garleans for a long enough period of time to get an accurate gauge of the populace's opinion. We have very few PoV from trueblood Garleans--we get a lot of provincial views, but as it is we really only have: Cid, Nero, Lucia, the Prima Vista, Maxima, the three/four Legatus, and Varis. We interact with very fringe cases of Garleans: high-ranking military officials (including the bloody Emperor himself), and expatriates fleeing the country exactly because they disagree with it. Given that, it's easy to see that we see two opposing extreme views of the Empire--neither of which I'd say is likely to be a majority opinion among the general public (and actually, given the Empire's efficacy of propaganda, I'd expect the former Republic itself to skew toward the Imperialist ideals.)

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Everything else aside, I think it's been mentioned before, but that motto is Garlond Ironworks. Cid is a Garlean expatriate, yes, but I really don't think we have any evidence that it's anything but the Ironwork's motto. I subscribe to the idea in the Omega storyline, Nero just reminds Cid of his own words rather than any Garlean creed (before that comes up again).

Lore Book 1 gives the official Garlean motto as "Nos sumus manus, Nos sumus deus." [We are the Hand, We are the God.]

I don't think we've met enough born and bred Garleans for a long enough period of time to get an accurate gauge of the populace's opinion. We have very few PoV from trueblood Garleans--we get a lot of provincial views, but as it is we really only have: Cid, Nero, Lucia, the Prima Vista, Maxima, the three/four Legatus, and Varis. We interact with very fringe cases of Garleans: high-ranking military officials (including the bloody Emperor himself), and expatriates fleeing the country exactly because they disagree with it. Given that, it's easy to see that we see two opposing extreme views of the Empire--neither of which I'd say is likely to be a majority opinion among the general public (and actually, given the Empire's efficacy of propaganda, I'd expect the former Republic itself to skew toward the Imperialist ideals.)

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Sounds like I need to get me one of them lore books to sharpen my knowledge xD

Thanks for the corrections^^

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Originally Posted by Cilia

In short, even if the Empire's methods were able to prevent any and all summons after their conquest (and they're not), as long as summons are carried out during invasions that's not an ideal outcome. The ideal outcome is zero, and the Empire's methods aren't conducive to that at all.

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If they did absolutely nothing, would the number be zero though? I'm fairly certain summons would happen regardless. In the long run, what's better;

1 summon a week with no conquest.
2 summons a week during conquest, but with 0 summons after conquest.

In the long run you potentially have less summonings. Not saying their methodology isn't incredibly flawed, but at least they're actively trying to find a solution, and even acknowledging flawed ones (as seen in the Warring Triad story). What does the Eorzea Alliance do to stop Ifrit being summoned? Nothing, they just throw prisoners of war at him at this point... We've battled Ifrit what, three times? Crispin claims to have battled him four times, so we can assume he has at least been summoned seven times without Garlean involvement, and the one time he was summoned in response to Gaius, Gaius instantly had a pretty good solution I feel... Ultima Weapon only backfired because we decided to go against it, as I recall the tribes were terrified of it robbing them of their gods and our destroying it directly resulted in them getting right back to summoning the (Hard) variants...

Honestly, our resistance to Garlemald seems more like a contributing factor in summonings than their actual conquest. Obviously that's rightful resistance, and it only happens as a result of their conquest, but they do seem to get results in the end... I don't think there was any indication of Lakshmi being a problem during the Garlean occupation. We liberate the region and now she is a persistent problem. Kinda feels like we took one step forwards on basic human rights, and two steps back on solving the Primal problem to me. For all their flaws, they seem to be doing some long term good on that front... The Eorzean Alliance, on the other hand... Well, if Ifrit is still a persistent problem, why would Lakshmi now be any different? The Ananta went from not being able to summon under tight Garlean rule, to being able to summon in the thrown room of Ala Mhigo... Successfully pushing back their conquest didn't lower the number of summonings, it increased it...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

We liberate the region and now she is a persistent problem. Kinda feels like we took one step forwards on basic human rights, and two steps back on solving the Primal problem to me. For all their flaws, they seem to be doing some long term good on that front... The Eorzean Alliance, on the other hand... Well, if Ifrit is still a persistent problem, why would Lakshmi now be any different? The Ananta went from not being able to summon under tight Garlean rule, to being able to summon in the thrown room of Ala Mhigo... Successfully pushing back their conquest didn't lower the number of summonings, it increased it...

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Well, on the flip side... Due to our pushing back of the Imperials as well as our defeating of Lakshmi (Twice) there are more Qalyana's coming to join the Gatekeepers and work with the Vira (Whom don't want to summon Primals).

Which seems to be somewhat of the goal to stopping Primals, at least in some cases. Trying to get the Beast Tribes we help into a position to slowly "convert" the aggressive tribe into their fold, or at least to make them see reason.

For example, Novv tries to impart on them a sense of compassion, that sending your clutch to their death in a pointless war because of summoning a Primal is not a good way of life.

The Vanu are trying to just live in peace alongside the Gundu, and thus just need to be threatening enough that the Vundu don't feel justified in trying to become the sole tribe among the Sea of Clouds. Thus without a reason to assert dominance, the Vundu have little reason to summon Bismarck.

The Vath are trying to simply survive against the Gnath and look after any members of the Gnath whom inexplicably lose their connection to the Onemind.

Really... The main problem with The Eorzean Alliance way of trying to deal with Primals... Is the fact that they kind of just let the Scions go and deal with things, because that's what one of the main aims of the organization was. Just... When we discovered that Ascians were behind the increasing frequency of summons, well... Now the entire focus of the organization is on defeating the Ascians. The result is that... Well nothing is being done about the Beast Tribes and their summoning practices, other than beating up the Primals when they spawn and occasionally stealing their crystals to prevent them from summoning anything (You know, when we're not incidentally causing summons in the first place (Whilst also traumatizing a Kobold child in the process...))

Which is another way that the annoying Ascian focus of the plot has messed with the game's story... It basically means that the entire Eorzean Alliance and the Scions look horribly inept at actually solving the issue with Primals...

The big issue with Primals is that fighting against a Primal is really fighting against an idea. Just... that idea can literally become a weapon that drains the energy out of the world and can also brainwash people into believing it all the time.

Only... fighting against ideas in incredibly hard. Force never really works. And Force is what the Garleans use primarily. The Eorzean Alliance for all its faults is at least trying to fight an idea with a different idea, and that has the potential to work much better over the long run. Heck, we see it working right now. It's just that until the people who are brainwashed into thinking the idea behind the Primal die the idea of the Primal is never totally going to go away. Maybe not even then. So the Eorzean Alliance only really engages with the Beast Tribes when a Primal is summoned.

Which is a way better moral position to be in then the Garleans are. The Garleans are trying to kill an idea by killing everyone who could have that idea. They don't really care if people have that idea actually. We see Varis and Regula trying to kill the Vanu Vanu who we already know do not want to summon Bismark because they worship a different Bismark (who they would not summon) and therefor have the potential to summon it. Then we end up finding out that non-beast tribes can summon primals just fine too and now where do the Garleans decide to stop with the "killing people who could summon primals" campain? Ysayle can summon up Saint Shiva just fine and Eorzea has plenty of Saint to summon (if not outright gods). We've seen two kami summoned and Doma and Hingashi worship thousands of kami. Then there's the dragons who prove that you can summon up a primal based on the idea of a person and making it so OP it can cause a Calamity. So like... anything really can be summoned as a primal. You just need an aether source and belief in that idea.

Why yes... I am very much suspecting the Garleans will summon a primal based on their ideas and have to deal with the fact that they are just like all the people they were killing just because they had ideas they could summon as primals. The irony will be amazing.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Why yes... I am very much suspecting the Garleans will summon a primal based on their ideas and have to deal with the fact that they are just like all the people they were killing just because they had ideas they could summon as primals. The irony will be amazing.

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They foreshadowed that pretty hard on the Prima Vista when we were told that the Emperor is effectively deified. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a deliberate move on the part of Solus.

One important thing to remember is that, prior to the Battle at Silvertear, Primal summoning rarely happened if at all on Eorzea during the Sixth Astral Era. While the Eorzeans didn't make the best responses to the beast tribes use of summoning it was ultimately the Garleans who started the problem. This is true regardless of whether Solus being an Ascian was planned from the start be either the current or for more dev team.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

One important thing to remember is that, prior to the Battle at Silvertear, Primal summoning rarely happened if at all on Eorzea during the Sixth Astral Era. While the Eorzeans didn't make the best responses to the beast tribes use of summoning it was ultimately the Garleans who started the problem. This is true regardless of whether Solus being an Ascian was planned from the start be either the current or for more dev team.

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Seems to me like the devs always intended Ascians to be the root of summoning and that the idea to use Garlemald as a means of spreading suffering and thus the spread of religion has always been close in mind. Remember van Baelsar's big speech about religion in the Praetorium?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If they did absolutely nothing, would the number be zero though? I'm fairly certain summons would happen regardless. In the long run, what's better;

1 summon a week with no conquest.
2 summons a week during conquest, but with 0 summons after conquest.

In the long run you potentially have less summonings. Not saying their methodology isn't incredibly flawed, but at least they're actively trying to find a solution, and even acknowledging flawed ones (as seen in the Warring Triad story). What does the Eorzea Alliance do to stop Ifrit being summoned? Nothing, they just throw prisoners of war at him at this point... We've battled Ifrit what, three times? Crispin claims to have battled him four times, so we can assume he has at least been summoned seven times without Garlean involvement, and the one time he was summoned in response to Gaius, Gaius instantly had a pretty good solution I feel... Ultima Weapon only backfired because we decided to go against it, as I recall the tribes were terrified of it robbing them of their gods and our destroying it directly resulted in them getting right back to summoning the (Hard) variants...

Honestly, our resistance to Garlemald seems more like a contributing factor in summonings than their actual conquest. Obviously that's rightful resistance, and it only happens as a result of their conquest, but they do seem to get results in the end... I don't think there was any indication of Lakshmi being a problem during the Garlean occupation. We liberate the region and now she is a persistent problem. Kinda feels like we took one step forwards on basic human rights, and two steps back on solving the Primal problem to me. For all their flaws, they seem to be doing some long term good on that front... The Eorzean Alliance, on the other hand... Well, if Ifrit is still a persistent problem, why would Lakshmi now be any different? The Ananta went from not being able to summon under tight Garlean rule, to being able to summon in the thrown room of Ala Mhigo... Successfully pushing back their conquest didn't lower the number of summonings, it increased it...

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Except, the bolded part simply isn't true. Shinryu was summoned in response to Garlean occupation, long after Ala Mhigo had been subjugated. The Eorzeans left well enough alone, and in response they were faced with probably the worst primal summoned thus far. (Certainly the most violent, but given Shinryu was sustained by a desire for vengeance as opposed to faith, that's not surprising.) Be it through unwarranted aggression or brutal oppression, the Empire's methods are conducive to summoning. (Exactly as planned.)

I can't fault them for trying to find a more permanent solution, but the reality of the situation is that there simply may not be a permanent solution beyond killing anyone and anything capable of manipulating aether. Even if Gaius used the Ultima Weapon to capture all the extant primals in Eorzea, who's to stop them from summoning new ones? What of the Eorzeans, who in response to their plight could end up unintentionally summoning another primal Phoenix-style, except too powerful and destructive for the Ultima Weapon to handle? To say nothing of how the Ultima Weapon could end up being far more destructive than any primal save Bahamut (and maybe Shinryu) if given more primal chow...

No, the Eorzeans' system of "deal with them as they come up" isn't perfect, and something more permanent would be better. That said, what they're doing now is probably the best approach they have (engage the beast tribes in peaceful negotiations, try to trade their crystals away so they can't hoard enough for a summon), and as others have pointed out the whole issue is the Empire's fault in the first place (though I need to add that it's only their indirect fault - Middy screwed the pooch on that one by coiling around the Agrius and roaring to showboat when he should have been getting the kupo away from the exploding ceruleum engines...); summons were extremely rare to impossible prior to the assault on Silvertear (in Eorzea, at least).

The Empire's methods do not make things better, be it short-term (Lakshmi) or long-term (Shinryu).

I'm with the OP, I'm not confident in the turn the writers have taken it, I liked the idea of the Garleans being a relatable enemy, a rival capable of their own kindness, culture, and flaws, Ascians only throw into question on whether they should have all died to begin with, put on borrowed time by a foreign entity when both gods and godslayers should want them dead, as if to make the possibility of stamping them all into the dirt more palatable when our inevitable victory comes.

But I think we are underplaying an important problem, Garlean politics has a reputation of being incredibly cutthroat. From killing claimants to the throne to concerns about assassination attempts in Kugane. That its been under the Ascian thumb since its inception takes away the idea that they are a relatable enemy. At the same time, to say the Garleans have done nothing but support the Ascians is now also suspect because of said Ascians. Not everywhere is like the Rising Stones. With a spy network, and the ability to spirit in assassins/bodysnatchers at any place. It could be very likely that most Garleans that were close to the truth or dissented from the "intended" party line found themselves killed or manipulated out of interference by Ascians. Even now we do not know whether Varis is speaking under duress, possessed, or legitimately crazy.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except, the bolded part simply isn't true. Shinryu was summoned in response to Garlean occupation, long after Ala Mhigo had been subjugated. The Eorzeans left well enough alone, and in response they were faced with probably the worst primal summoned thus far. (Certainly the most violent, but given Shinryu was sustained by a desire for vengeance as opposed to faith, that's not surprising.) Be it through unwarranted aggression or brutal oppression, the Empire's methods are conducive to summoning. (Exactly as planned.)

I can't fault them for trying to find a more permanent solution, but the reality of the situation is that there simply may not be a permanent solution beyond killing anyone and anything capable of manipulating aether. Even if Gaius used the Ultima Weapon to capture all the extant primals in Eorzea, who's to stop them from summoning new ones? What of the Eorzeans, who in response to their plight could end up unintentionally summoning another primal Phoenix-style, except too powerful and destructive for the Ultima Weapon to handle? To say nothing of how the Ultima Weapon could end up being far more destructive than any primal save Bahamut (and maybe Shinryu) if given more primal chow...

No, the Eorzeans' system of "deal with them as they come up" isn't perfect, and something more permanent would be better. That said, what they're doing now is probably the best approach they have (engage the beast tribes in peaceful negotiations, try to trade their crystals away so they can't hoard enough for a summon), and as others have pointed out the whole issue is the Empire's fault in the first place (though I need to add that it's only their indirect fault - Middy screwed the pooch on that one by coiling around the Agrius and roaring to showboat when he should have been getting the kupo away from the exploding ceruleum engines...); summons were extremely rare to impossible prior to the assault on Silvertear (in Eorzea, at least).

The Empire's methods do not make things better, be it short-term (Lakshmi) or long-term (Shinryu).

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You know that makes me wonder lore wise if the Ultima Weapon could have absorbed Shinryu or not. I'm not even entirely sure if Shinryu beats it in terms of raw destructive power given we required divine intervention to survive the Ultima spell and had to destroy it before it could cast it again. I'm not sure even Shinryu could destroy the ultima weapon if it had to tank an Ultima to the face.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except, the bolded part simply isn't true. Shinryu was summoned in response to Garlean occupation, long after Ala Mhigo had been subjugated. The Eorzeans left well enough alone, and in response they were faced with probably the worst primal summoned thus far.

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I'm incline to disagree with that, at least partly. Shinryu was not summoned by subjugated players. Pretty much all the means for his summoning were obtained in Eorzea, as well as a sizable number of his (unwitting) followers. The whole plan was certainly hatched by a displaced refugee, but the whole plan was also hatched and executed from the Eorzean side of the boarder, not the Garlean one, and was largely possible in part due to Eorzean negligence.

If the Eorzeans were better at managing aether batteries/crystals, if they were better at cracking down on what essentially was an extremist group, Ilberd would not have the means to summon Shinryu. Both those things are something Garlemald seems to crack down on pretty heavily, certainly a contributing factor in there seemingly being no summonings within their boarders; Shinryu was right on the boarder and Lakshmi I'd say was too, given the boarder was shifting at that point. Heck, I'd slap "on the boarder" in with "during conquest", personally. The conquest isn't over until there is no boarder, after all.

There's still no indication of Garlemald having any Primal problem within their boarders, which is honestly something I'd like to see addressed. Either the Ascians simply don't provide the means to summon in conquered regions, because why would they, or Garlemald does a good job of locking down the means, probably a bit of both. I'd actually like it if there were summonings in their territories though, just because we really haven't seen them dealing with Primals all that much and I think there are some interesting stories that could be told regarding that sort of thing. The games been far too eager to just paint Garlemald as a stereotypical evil empire. Even if it's obviously the Ascians plan, having a scenario in which say, a region had a Primal problem (because Ascians) pre-Garlemald and they actually solved that, perhaps earning them some support (as planned by Ascians). It makes for a more interesting narrative IMO, as would looking at how they deal with the problem, Magitek strikes me as an efficient and safe means, more so when mirrored with the Eorzean Alliances methods, which hasn't really been questioned since 2.0...

You trying to say the Wol and Aymeric should have known that Accians and "dead" people from another shard would be able to go and collect eyes of a dead wyrm from something that would naturally destroy over time anything else living in it? Sure, those who had held Ildberd's leash should have either held it better or delt with him or kept track of him. Though he did seem to be a slippery fish.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

You trying to say the Wol and Aymeric should have known that Accians and "dead" people from another shard would be able to go and collect eyes of a dead wyrm from something that would naturally destroy over time anything else living in it? Sure, those who had held Ildberd's leash should have either held it better or delt with him or kept track of him. Though he did seem to be a slippery fish.

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"Throw them away so we don't know what happens to them" is a terrible plan compared to "Hold onto them so we can seal them or destroy them ourselves", shouldn't leave something like that up to chance. If anything we're lucky they just fell into the chasm, given the events going on I'd have been worried about one of Nidhoggs brood swooping in to snatch them up... Throwing something important to an avian enemy into the air to rid yourself of them... Was a foolish plan for a number of reasons...

But that's only half the issue. The Eorzean Alliance failing to track down Ilberd to bring him to justice, and letting the "Griffin" go about recruiting inside their territory? That's a whole other issue.

Really though, Nidhoggs Eyes being involved kind of makes Shinryu a whole special case in my opinion... Exceptional circumstances lead to Shinryu being summoned, hardly the norm in Primals brought about to challenge the empire.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

"Throw them away so we don't know what happens to them" is a terrible plan compared to "Hold onto them so we can seal them or destroy them ourselves", shouldn't leave something like that up to chance. If anything we're lucky they just fell into the chasm, given the events going on I'd have been worried about one of Nidhoggs brood swooping in to snatch them up... Throwing something important to an avian enemy into the air to rid yourself of them... Was a foolish plan for a number of reasons...

But that's only half the issue. The Eorzean Alliance failing to track down Ilberd to bring him to justice, and letting the "Griffin" go about recruiting inside their territory? That's a whole other issue.

Really though, Nidhoggs Eyes being involved kind of makes Shinryu a whole special case in my opinion... Exceptional circumstances lead to Shinryu being summoned, hardly the norm in Primals brought about to challenge the empire.

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The Sea of Clouds in the chasm around the Holy See is explained as being a perpetual tempest of water and wind aether that will tear to pieces anything that tries to enter it. Throwing them off the bridge was a pretty safe bet all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

"Throw them away so we don't know what happens to them" is a terrible plan compared to "Hold onto them so we can seal them or destroy them ourselves", shouldn't leave something like that up to chance.

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I think the main concern at that point was "FOR THE LOVE OF THE TWELVE GET THEM THE FUDGE AWAY FROM THE DUDE WHO LITERALLY ABSORBED THEM AND BECAME NIDHOGG!!"

Like, when we tore them out of Estinien, we weren't sure that he wasn't still under the control of Nidhogg, keeping them around and risking you know, having to take out Nidhogg again (Which we only achieved with help of Hraesvelgr's eye combined with the super powers of being the WoL).

So, while in hindsight, it wasn't the best plan... At the time, it makes sense. Simultaneously get them away from the dude who could accidentally become a giant angry dragon hell bent on murdering everyone (Again) and well, put them into a place that's supposed to destroy literally everything in it.

Hindsight bias is a really bad argument.

Whether Shinryu was summoned within or without Gyr Abania / Ala Mhigo, the point is the Empire's methods set up the conditions that led to his summoning. If the Empire's methods were effective at rooting out all summons, this wouldn't happen. Refugees are a direct consequence of the Empire's conquest, and the actions they take in response to that conquest are consequently the Empire's fault.

Whether the Eorzeans should have kept a tighter leash on Ilberd, whether they should have been more militant in rooting out him and his Masks... is immaterial, given those actions wouldn't be necessary in the first place had the Empire simply left Ala Mhigo alone. None of this would have been necessary had the Empire just stopped. But on they marched, and for what?

For the sake of a bunch of meaningless lies.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Hindsight bias is a really bad argument.

Whether Shinryu was summoned within or without Gyr Abania / Ala Mhigo, the point is the Empire's methods set up the conditions that led to his summoning. If the Empire's methods were effective at rooting out all summons, this wouldn't happen. Refugees are a direct consequence of the Empire's conquest, and the actions they take in response to that conquest are consequently the Empire's fault.

Whether the Eorzeans should have kept a tighter leash on Ilberd, whether they should have been more militant in rooting out him and his Masks... is immaterial, given those actions wouldn't be necessary in the first place had the Empire simply left Ala Mhigo alone. None of this would have been necessary had the Empire just stopped. But on they marched, and for what?

For the sake of a bunch of meaningless lies.

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Lies that a group of bodysnatching, no clipping, immortal spectres could enforce upon the upper echelons of the government and military at leisure. Even devoid of the Empire's presence, primals occur with regularity, some at the hands of belligerents that are tailor made to not stop moving towards summoning, and others simply for petty reasons the beast tribes have been complaining about for years, and will likely be no closer to resolving.


Ascians, by sheer virtue of their dick dastardly antics, makes the Garleans just another easily beatable mess to be knocked over and promotes the fact that they were made, and written, specifically to fail, as they have been throughout the game's history.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Lies that a group of bodysnatching, no clipping, immortal spectres could enforce upon the upper echelons of the government and military at leisure. Even devoid of the Empire's presence, primals occur with regularity, some at the hands of belligerents that are tailor made to not stop moving towards summoning, and others simply for petty reasons the beast tribes have been complaining about for years, and will likely be no closer to resolving.

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Whether they're tailor-made to appeal to the Garleans or not, whether they were shoved down the Garleans' throats or not... lies are lies.

I (and others) pointed it out before, but prior to the Empire's assault on Silvertear summoning was much, much less frequent. There aren't even records of a summon during the Sixth Astral Era in Eorzea predating this event, and if Hien's commentary during the parley is anything to go by, it wasn't a common occurrence over in Othard either (if it ever happened at all).

If there were few to no summons prior to the Empire's campaign, and there are now many and frequent summons as a consequence...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Whether they're tailor-made to appeal to the Garleans or not, whether they were shoved down the Garleans' throats or not... lies are lies.

I (and others) pointed it out before, but prior to the Empire's assault on Silvertear summoning was much, much less frequent. There aren't even records of a summon during the Sixth Astral Era in Eorzea predating this event, and if Hien's commentary during the parley is anything to go by, it wasn't a common occurrence over in Othard either (if it ever happened at all).

If there were few to no summons prior to the Empire's campaign, and there are now many and frequent summons as a consequence...

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Yes, lies are lies, and they were fools not to figure it out the moment they were uttered in the snows, so let’s just bury the Garleans already since they are such a waste of space! The writers clearly went out of their way to make them useless slobs emphasizing the worst of civilized thought, and following orders still makes you just as bad, so who are we to argue otherwise! Just kill them, put an end to the empire and be done with it.

And the ascian involvement, of course, make that so much more simpiler.

Look, There simply is no point arguing about it anymore when the first line of the Shadowbringers reveal is to “take down the garlean empire”. That just kills the story up north for me.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Look, There simply is no point arguing about it anymore when the first line of the Shadowbringers reveal is to “take down the garlean empire”. That just kills the story up north for me.

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That was the tagline before patch 4.5 dropped and before the reveal that all the new zones in the next expansion were not on the Source, but were on the 1st Shard. I'm almost certain the "take the fight to the Garlean Empire" bit was a red herring since the reveal that we are going to the 1st Shard happens so late in-game and the developers didn't want to spoil it before patch 4.5 was even out.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

That was the tagline before patch 4.5 dropped and before the reveal that all the new zones in the next expansion were not on the Source, but were on the 1st Shard. I'm almost certain the "take the fight to the Garlean Empire" bit was a red herring since the reveal that we are going to the 1st Shard happens so late in-game and the developers didn't want to spoil it before patch 4.5 was even out.

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So that was a misdirection?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

So that was a misdirection?

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Could still be something like the Garlemald plotting (through Solus) is happening via what he's doing on the First. And we end up being summoned there too, it's a bit too much for a coincidence.
Because right now, Garlemald is just a part of Ascians' plans. Dealing with one will impact the other.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Could still be something like the Garlemald plotting (through Solus) is happening via what he's doing on the First. And we end up being summoned there too, it's a bit too much for a coincidence.
Because right now, Garlemald is just a part of Ascians' plans. Dealing with one will impact the other.

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They may have Garlemald as the final Map we go to after the 1st Shard Map. basically keep 80% of the story in 1st Shard then we are sent back to fight in Garlemald in the last 20% of the story.

All six zones are going to be in Novrant. The data-mining community has known the names of the six zones and two city areas used by the game's computer code for a while now. And the first thing that is indicated in the name is what region of the world the zones are in. Which just so happens to be the same for all the new zones. This wasn't the case in 4.0 when some of the zones were in one region and some of the zones were in another.

Yeah, I doubt it's was entirely misdirection (though the whole amazing surprise reveal of the trip to the First Shard was NOT handled well, in my opinion). It's absurd to think that the Garleans are going to twiddle their thumbs for an entire expansion, when the final patch of this expansion left their war machine scratching at the very gates of Ala Mhigo.

However, if they ARE going to put an end to the Garlean Empire this expansion, when (apparently) every zone is on the First Shard, it suggests that the Garlean resolution is going to be a B-plot to the First Shard's A-plot, and that doesn't sit well with me at all.

The point I was trying to make is that the Empire's methods do not work. They are not designed to work - on the contrary, they are designed to set up and perpetuate conflict. Regardless of whether or not one finds their past sympathetic or tragic, or whether one believes their methods have some merit to them, or one just wants to be a contrarian... that is the reality of the situation.

I am not wont to engage in pointless battles; never have I ever advocated taking the most extreme method of dealing with the Empire (wanton slaughter). However, if things are going to get better for the people of Aldenard and Othard (and arguably Ilsabard as well), the Empire needs to change - and if we're to take Varis' performance in the second half of the parley at face value, unless something drastic happens he's not the leader the Empire needs for that change to happen; and until that change happens there is nothing wrong with fighting back against aggressive invaders, which, politics and ideology aside, is all the Empire is.

That said yeah, it is kind of awkward that they'd relegate a war with the Empire to the B-plot, but, ehh, whatever... I'll judge how well it's done when we get there in a couple months...

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

All six zones are going to be in Novrant. The data-mining community has known the names of the six zones and two city areas used by the game's computer code for a while now. And the first thing that is indicated in the name is what region of the world the zones are in. Which just so happens to be the same for all the new zones. This wasn't the case in 4.0 when some of the zones were in one region and some of the zones were in another.

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Oh do we have the sixth one now? I thought it was still kind of a mystery!
I'm also one to think everything is happening on the first anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Oh do we have the sixth one now? I thought it was still kind of a mystery!
I'm also one to think everything is happening on the first anyway.

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It hasn't been officially revealed, but they have already put the name and region in the game files apparently.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Yeah but I can't find anything about it so I'll have to wait I guess ;)

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From what I understand, its not as if the actual names are on the files, but they have somesort of identifier for 'zone name' and 'region' like say ZN1_REG.file and that all of the new zone files have the same (REG).

Of course this understanding could be fundamentally flawed.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

It hasn't been officially revealed, but they have already put the name and region in the game files apparently.

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Yeah but I can't find anything about it so I'll have to wait I guess ;)