I liked Eureka

We can't argue at Tim's, we can only apologize!

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Originally Posted by Taebok

Not sure what they were thinking with the Pagos spawn/xp/light rates.
They were painful for sure.
But they made up for it in Pyros.

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Eh. That's debatable. Pyros is by FAR superior to Pagos, which was a complete train wreck. That being said, the crystal drop rates are too low. They put so much emphasizes trying to get people to do bunnies that half the instances refuse to do anything else. Spawning NMs by yourself wouldn't be too terrible if you didn't need, what, 800 crystals when they only drop between 1-11 on average?

I'll put it this way. Eureka isn't the worst thing ever, but it's undeniable that if our relics weren't tied to it, we would have seen a repeat of Diadem.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'll put it this way. Eureka isn't the worst thing ever, but it's undeniable that if our relics weren't tied to it, we would have seen a repeat of Diadem.

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Which would of been bad how? Now they think you enjoy the content even though you go into it just for the relic. They see x amount of players zones into Eureka and think x amount enjoy it. If relics wouldn't of been in, they would of maybe understood where the screwed the pooch with it.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Which would of been bad how? Now they think you enjoy the content even though you go into it just for the relic. They see x amount of players zones into Eureka and think x amount enjoy it. If relics wouldn't of been in, they would of maybe understood where the screwed the pooch with it.

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Sad thing is there are only two equally depressing outcomes from this

1. They know tying relic to mediocre or worse content will compel people who would otherwise ignore the instance(s) to do it
2. They genuinely think all the players liked the content and will appreciate more

I keep hoping and praying they leave their little experiment behind in 5.0 and don't repeat this horrible concept.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I keep hoping and praying they leave their little experiment behind in 5.0 and don't repeat this horrible concept.

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This game is king of reusing content. Will probably return in an even more convoluted and unnecessary form.

There is one thing that I love about Eureka...it gave me so much more free time to do other things in life. I've been hitting FF14 pretty hard the last couple years. Mount farming, leveling all classes, getting the best gear I can for multiple classes, all sorts of crafting and gathering, plenty of items from the mogstation, the list goes on. But then I stepped into Pagos and I thought to myself "what am I doing with my life?" and "this just isn't worth it." Since then I've dropped Eureka, haven't capped my tombstones in like two months doing the same two dungeons everyday, haven't spent all day gathering or crafting things, dropped my extra retainer subscriptions, and find myself with a bunch of time to play all sorts of other games I like. I find myself just enjoying other things and questioning "is this really worth my time?" I'll still be subscribed and will find myself RP'ing more than grinding. So thank you Eureka for being so bad that you opened my eyes to things that are so much more fun.

I did the first tier when it came out. was great I absolutely loved it. Since then I haven't had an opportunity to play much. Started pagos when the following tier came out (roughly). It's horrible, lack of players at lower level make it an absolute nightmare. I'm 27-28 now and it was so bad I just gave up and decided I would find motivation once the gear catches up to the raid tier and becomes BiS.

9/10 for fun when content is relevant. 2/10 when you're behind. I'm sad that I was really looking forward to moving on but it's just a nightmare if you are lagging behind.

There's nothing wrong with liking it. People like different things. I personally would rather drive nails through my eyes than do it. I played EQ from launch for years and I lived through this type of content. it's one of the laziest ways you can develop content. But I see repeated here what was often said about EQ - the community is good. My time in EQ isn't something I can look back on fondly because of the mind-numbing content, but the people who endured it with me and the elation we felt when we conquered it together. I only feel relief that I never have to do that again when I reach a milestone in Eureka. I haven't touched Pyros. I quit Pagos still 13 crystals away from finishing my first relic. I had suffered through boredom in Anemos in the train and the boredom in Pagos in group or in the train and I just couldn't do it anymore.

I'm incredibly disappointed at the development resources that were wasted on this. And like others in this thread, if this is their new normal for the future, then I'm going to seriously consider finding another game. Maybe, ironically, go back to EQ, which learned its lesson and has a more modern outlook than what we're seeing in FFXIV this expansion.

Pagos was so bad it sours the entire experience, an experience that wasn't that good to begin with.

Eureka is Diadem with a relic, if it wasn't for the relic, no one would have given a shit about doing Eureka, so they stuck the relic in there to keep people interested.

A poor effort, if we get more content like this, I'm not sticking around.

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Originally Posted by Adrestia

Was it honestly a punishment, like out of malice? Or did they perhaps just want to steer the course back to their vision?

I mean you can be displeased about the second too, it’s all opinion and the zones were undeniably not for everyone. But if they hadn’t changed things radically, Pagos just would have been Anemos with snow, and that’s not what they were trying to make.

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Then do not lock relic behind it. I know yoshi-p said something on the effect of "not everyone will like Eureka" the failure then here is lacking the forsight of not locking relic progression with that mentality. So because they locked relic behind it, to me it feels like they did that cuz they knew it would be bad, and tried to use relic as a bride to get people in. The sad thing is, even that did not work on a good amount of people.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Y: As Mr. Nakagawa said, there were far more adventurers delved into Anemos than expected. We initially expected the Eureka playerbase to be mostly limited to people who are comfortable with the attribute of repetition or MMO players who are active communications. Pagos was basically the content that aimed this narrow “elite” player-base to go deeper. It was our fault to not expect that there would be much more casual players along as well.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...6GzIzadxA/edit

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Uhh,, so why did they lock RELIC BEHIND this? then went to say it was soloble and casual friendly while it was in the making? Here is why it flopped folks, Development team can't stay on track for one vision.

pyros was allright. i think if that had just been what eureka was we wouldn't see all the hate.

but anemos was meh and pagos was pretty terrible. it taints the whole zeitgeist.

I love eureka, the sense of community from pre-nerf pagos was the best build. I hate the train with a passion.

I didn't like it. At all. I tried it. I guess if they had more explanation of wtf you were supposed to do, but going from the FFXIV model into this nonsense (I really didn't even know what the point of it was...a weapon? I bought a 380 weapon... I dunno)

It just seemed like a bolt on to the game. I like the idea of trying new and innovate things. The design was off the rails here, though.

It would have made more sense for me for Eureka to be it's own DLC expansion and to fully flesh it out. Even though I didn't like it, I think a large part was because it was just shoved into an expansion half baked. It reminded me of when EQ tried LDoN- except they called it a "mini expansion" and actually focused on it to get it right.

Anemos was ok. If there were logos actions from the start in Anemos. It would IMO been a great success.

However that is not how it played out and Pagos was terrible. Anemos was bearable and the only reason Pyros got so much praise is because anything was better than pagos.

I just hope the relic in the next expansion is not tied to another Eureka/Diadem

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Originally Posted by Hysell

There is one thing that I love about Eureka...it gave me so much more free time to do other things in life. I've been hitting FF14 pretty hard the last couple years. Mount farming, leveling all classes, getting the best gear I can for multiple classes, all sorts of crafting and gathering, plenty of items from the mogstation, the list goes on. But then I stepped into Pagos and I thought to myself "what am I doing with my life?" and "this just isn't worth it."

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Gods, this. I was slogging through Pagos and realized I was wasting my days off being miserable while playing a video game. Still subbed but it feels good to be back to goofing around with my friends, be it in this game or in others.

If the pagos nerfs are huge, I might pop in for another relic...If not, no biggie. Its not worth my time anymore.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Aetheryte attunements were too high in Pagos and were subsequently made very lenient in Pyros.

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While it's true that the level at which you can attune is lower (the first one is 37, second one is 39), the placement and the mobs around them really kind of negates that you can unlock them earlier.

The level 37 aetheryte, for example, is way down south on the map and you have to pass by mobs that range from level 41 to 43 to unlock it. The level 39 aetheryte requires going through a cave with level 45 mobs. And the mob density is a lot higher in Pyros than it was in Pagos. It's a bit harder to successfully get past all of them without at least one in the group suddenly turning your way and aggroing.

Admittedly, both are probably easy enough to do if you're in a group, sure, which is what I assume SE's thought process was. But that makes the claim that it can be soloed sketchy.

I love it personally, feels like adventuring again with my friends. It does seem like it would be way less fun without others to play with, but why not join or start a party?

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Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

The level 37 aetheryte, for example, is way down south on the map and you have to pass by mobs that range from level 41 to 43 to unlock it.

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They did it right in Pyros. To be more accurate, it should be based on NM levels. You want the aetheryte level to be lower compared to the surrounding NMs that you can spawn by at most 1 level (for full reward). The closest NM to the 37 aetheryte is doll and that's a level 38 NM, which requires you to kill a lvl 43 mob. The level 39 aetheryte while true that it's surrounded by level 45 mobs, 90% of them are sound aggro and you can easily reach the level 40+ NMs there.

In Pagos, you had to be level 30 to attune to the aetheryte that is surrounding NMs from 27-30. So every time an NM spawns closer to your level, you'd have to walk through that horrible map and the void dragons waiting for you. And on to of that, you hope that the high level players who can teleport won't early pull it. And the same is true for the level 32 one if you wanted to reach the cow or Behemoth.

Although in Anemos it's not similar to Pyros in aetheryte level gap, Anemos didn't have that issue cuz of its open map style. I personally prefer Anemos map design over Pyros. You had so many paths to reach a certain point, instead of one single hallway that separates the map into two zones in Pyros and Pagos.

I like the concept of Eureka, but the reality is waiting 30 minutes for a fate while you do something else. Anemos seemed to have the fates constantly rolling over, but pagos and pyros are like molasses.

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Originally Posted by Eslina

I love eureka, the sense of community from pre-nerf pagos was the best build. I hate the train with a passion.

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Thank god, I thought I was the only one who thought this.

Overall, Eureka as a concept isn't "bad" per se. Though I'd have to classify it as a failure based on one question I ask myself: Would I have played it and continued to play it if the relic weapons and armors were not tied to it? I would have to conclude that I would not have played past Anemos if there was no train. Otherwise Pagos would have certainly broke me if I didn't power through it specifically for the relic... three times! All three times completing Pagos I became burned out of FFXIV completely necessitating I go play other games for a couple of weeks to a month or two. I'm still on break from the last relic playing through the Witcher franchise. I'll probably log in to do the Heavensturn event then immediately log out until 4.5 for new story and 24 man raid. Otherwise, i'm done with FFXIV for the moment because of Eureka. Won't be playing it more than casually until at least the next expansion drops.

For me, personally, it's probably the worst piece of content I played in an MMO. Anemos was tolerable, but it was still a horrible first impression and honestly shouldn't have released as bare bones as it did, with it being delayed and all that. And out of all the interesting content they could have gotten from XI, they went with the equivalent of Valkurm Dunes leveling, for some odd reason, while sprinkling fate bosses around the zone. At least the design of Anemos was pleasing to look at. Pagos.... well yeah, it was bad all around.

I respect your opinion on liking it. Different strokes for different folks. But I really hope we never get something like this ever again, as they proved, for a third time, that Diadem is just something the players don't want to do. Only this time, they put an important piece of content in it (relic) to entice people to stick with it, because the game currently has nothing else to offer for long term progression if you don't raid or do PvP.

I Love Eureka. Of course it isn't perfect, but if it was, no one would have anything to cry about, and we know how much the devs like to feed off of those sweet sweet tears lol. All joking aside, Eureka is not for everyone, but the same can be said about literally every piece of content in this game. I feel like Eureka is like Goldylocks and the three bears. Anemos was beautiful but way to easy. Pagos was drab and cold and was the very extreme opposite of Anemos. Pyros mixes it up a bit and keeps the level of difficulty without being to outrageously hard, or Just Right.

One of the problems with people who play this game is, everyone wants everything to be easy and accessible, but then they complain that there is no difficulty. When they raise the difficulty, or make things take time to achieve your goal, they cry because it's to hard or takes to long. Eureka is great for people who like to be able to jump in and out of content by themselves but still be able to join a party inside of the content, leave when they want and "choose your own adventure" so to speak. That's why I love it. I work a lot and don't have time to sit in pf waiting for hours to form a learning party that will wipe, rage and have to refill up... that is literally my night. With Eureka I can go in, set a nightly goal, do what I set out to do and log off. I can work on my relic at my own pace, I can farm bunnies for items, or just idle in town and talk to people. It's almost like being in the over world back in the good old days.

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Originally Posted by Haxaan

One of the problems with people who play this game is, everyone wants everything to be easy and accessible, but then they complain that there is no difficulty. When they raise the difficulty, or make things take time to achieve your goal, they cry because it's to hard or takes to long. Eureka is great for people who like to be able to jump in and out of content by themselves but still be able to join a party inside of the content, leave when they want and "choose your own adventure" so to speak. That's why I love it. I work a lot and don't have time to sit in pf waiting for hours to form a learning party that will wipe, rage and have to refill up... that is literally my night. With Eureka I can go in, set a nightly goal, do what I set out to do and log off. I can work on my relic at my own pace, I can farm bunnies for items, or just idle in town and talk to people. It's almost like being in the over world back in the good old days.

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Accessibility != braindead dungeons. It's more about respecting the time of people who want to feel like they can progress without devoting their every free hour to the game.

Because let's face it, the only real challenges in Eureka are 1)not falling asleep killing HP sponges with 1 mechanic/following the train and 2)having enough willpower/masochism to grind and grind and grind and pray RNG is kind to you. That's not the kind of challenge a lot of people find to be enjoyable, or else Valkrum Dunes would have been the be-all, end-all of MMORPG leveling systems. Games have evolved since then so it's a bit baffling that XIV decided to go backwards for this content.

I work a lot too, and I don't want to waste the few hours I might get a week gaining a pixel of EXP per hour in pursuit of eventually earning the right to an RNG-laden grind for tokens and maybe some house furnishings or glam between all the sparklers and materia. Long story short if I wanted to play XI it's still there, I can sign right up and see some of the best of what early MMOs had to offer. Word is I can also hop in to WoW and get much the same loot experience at end-game. I don't want to though, so seeing it in XIV - and gating the relic behind it, no less- makes me hope that this is a one-off experiment and next time the dev team doesn't waste so many resources on content that should stay in the games that previously featured it. I wanted something other than 24 man raids, EX trials, and 8 man raids to do but Eureka definitely wasn't it.

I miss the old ARR relic grinds.

I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I work a lot too, and I don't want to waste the few hours I might get a week gaining a pixel of EXP per hour in pursuit of eventually earning the right to an RNG-laden grind for tokens and maybe some house furnishings or glam between all the sparklers and materia.

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I can understand and respect that some people don't enjoy Eureka, but I find this bit to basically be misinformation. Even in Pagos you can gain a lvl or two in a 1-2 hour session just doing bunny fates, if you're actually killing NMs as they spawn then you're gaining 3-5 lvls in that same time period.

As far as Crystals go, killing NMs and farming light are steady progress towards getting crystals, there is no RNG involved except maybe the amount of light you get, but it's still steady progress.

Only thing I can think of that would cause the kind of results you mentioned is mindlessly sticking to chain parties and refusing to partake in more profitable methods. Which as far as I can see is more a player choice than bad design, since the tools are there to alleviate the main issues that you appear to be having.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

I can understand and respect that some people don't enjoy Eureka, but I find this bit to basically be misinformation. Even in Pagos you can gain a lvl or two in a 1-2 hour session just doing bunny fates, if you're actually killing NMs as they spawn then you're gaining 3-5 lvls in that same time period.

As far as Crystals go, killing NMs and farming light are steady progress towards getting crystals, there is no RNG involved except maybe the amount of light you get, but it's still steady progress.

Only thing I can think of that would cause the kind of results you mentioned is mindlessly sticking to chain parties and refusing to partake in more profitable methods. Which as far as I can see is more a player choice than bad design, since the tools are there to alleviate the main issues that you appear to be having.

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I approached Anemos three different ways. Once as a duo with me and a buddy. Once as part of the train. Once as trying to get some similar-level people together in a group to chain and spawn. Out of all of these, the train was the most effective route, at which point I called it quits since getting rewarded for doing nothing is awful design. And the chaining/buddy method proved to me that "U CAN SOLO IT LOLZ"/"You can do it by yourself, on your own time!!1" is a total lie... unless you enjoy doing nothing else until mid-way through 5.x. The punishment for existing in the instance is over the top. If I want a real challenge I can go get my butt kicked in Soul Calibur or get wrecked by Dark Souls bosses. Testing my patience and willingness to put up with crap design isn't worth the time.

In all honesty I might not have minded the instance so much if it skipped the leveling B.S. and just let me (carefully) explore- there are few things I love more in games than gradually revealing maps and discovering amazing scenery. There was zero reason to force us up a hugely player-unfriendly level grind once reaching 70.

Actually if you wait until 4.55 or 4.57 it will all be nerfed to hell except Hydatos which should make it a tolerable experience.

if the relic wasnt tied to eureka i would have skipped it i prefer the old steps for relic.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

getting rewarded for doing nothing is awful design.

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But why are you doing nothing in the train? You help by killing the mobs that spawn the NM with the train. And if the mobs are a lot higher in level than you, you can just grab a group of 8 and go prep an NM that is around your level or less by killing 30 of the mobs that spawn it (the spawn time is random but very quick in Anemos and Pyros, unlike Pagos). That's how it was designed to spawn NMs (according to the theories lol). So in a way you made your own little train that YOU control its direction and timing. You don't have to be tied to the huge NM train if you're not doing anything in it. And if you still can't kill mobs around your level in a group of 8 and spawn NMs....then I don't know what to say here lol. The difficulty of the mobs and their mechanics there is even less than alphascape normal mode. So that should be considered a content that can be taken by casuals (a group of 8 managed to solo Penny).

On release day, since everyone is around the same level, almost everyone contributes in spawning NMs. Once the level gap grows, that's where you tend to see the AFKers in the train. Now I'm not gonna hate on the train cuz a lot of people AFK in it. It's not my business how they wanna play the content. No matter how interesting and fun a content is, if people find a way to do it without effort, they will do it like that (This is why you'll find mentors in mentor roulette drop out from EX trials as soon as they enter just cuz they don't wanna bother teaching sprouts about the content. They just want a quick way to get the 2000 roulettes).

The fun part is. SE is gonna look at this thread and then talk about "divided opinions on content".

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

you can just grab a group of 8

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This is the real problem. You can't "just grab a group of 8". I wasted hours upon hours trying to do this before I gave up.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

This is the real problem. You can't "just grab a group of 8". I wasted hours upon hours trying to do this before I gave up.

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That's the sad part. In every instance, you have enough people to make several full parties, but everytime you suggest something like that, people replies that it's better to stay in the train, even when their low level makes them gains almost nothing in it. Sheep mentality at its best.

And the problem is that it's not because of Eureka by itself but only because it's a large scale content. The more people you have, the less implication and coordination you can require from each people separately. At least, Eureka makes it so that others not helping doesn't prevent you from gaining something, as opposed to an AFK player in a raid or trial that will roll over you at the end.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

This is the real problem. You can't "just grab a group of 8". I wasted hours upon hours trying to do this before I gave up.

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And you need a group of 8 for what? There are plenty of anuby, Dragon and Forge groups in Pagos although they will fill up but they open up often enough and they are for mostly 34/35 level. There are many NM prep groups you can join given so many prefer just to AFK. Were you trying to do logs? If so, logs are best done and more easily done in Anemos. Not sure what type of group you were trying to join.

Edit: If you're talking Anemos I've rarely had problems trying to get a train group.

The problem with Anemos is get the so much vaunted challenge logs fulfilled if you are not already level 20. Trying a group that is around your level (and your co-players most not overlevel you) is virtually impossible. And doing those alone in a full instance is slow and painful. I actually dread going into Pagos ...

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Originally Posted by TalithaSolarien

The problem with Anemos is get the so much vaunted challenge logs fulfilled if you are not already level 20. Trying a group that is around your level (and your co-players most not overlevel you) is virtually impossible. And doing those alone in a full instance is slow and painful. I actually dread going into Pagos ...

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I would recommend not going to Pagos until you're at least 23. A full challenge log done in Anemos at level 20 will give you a full 3 levels. It's what I've done with my alts before entering. You need to be there at 25 for your kettle and light gathering. Be happy to offer you suggestions when you're ready to go.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's the sad part. In every instance, you have enough people to make several full parties, but everytime you suggest something like that, people replies that it's better to stay in the train, even when their low level makes them gains almost nothing in it. Sheep mentality at its best.

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They don't gain almost nothing from it though. The experience scales with your level and doing a level 50 nm is essentially the same experience as doing a level 36.
Also, that you can't find 7 other people to go hellgrind like it's 1998 again should be pretty telling about how people feel towards that kind of thing!

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

They don't gain almost nothing from it though. The experience scales with your level and doing a level 50 nm is essentially the same experience as doing a level 36.

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Wrong, doing a level 50 NM at level 36 will give you far less than a lvl36 NM and far less than what the level 50 would give you at 49.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Assumptions

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I went as WHM, figuring that I could help raise and heal folks since I wouldn't be doing much on a DPS front. Made sure to tag the boss with Aero (when I could see it), and did my best to avoid dying while raising people. That was significantly hindered by the tech limitations of boss and party members popping in and out of visibility (which has since been fixed, too little too late) and idiots dragging random mobs to where I was standing out of the way in the back (which can never be fixed). The sad thing is this chaos of dying to things I couldn't see and trying to raise people I was standing next to but couldn't target was the most efficient way of getting EXP and loot. I got to level 5 in about an hour's time, after which I called it quits. I can see why they wanted to fix the train in Pagos but doubling down on the NO FUN ALLOWED aspects was what finally killed any goodwill I had to the whole concept. SE has no idea what "fun" is for a lot of people if they think Eureka is good content.