What exactly IS a White Mage?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Prior to 4.3 is prior to healer rebalancing, and not particularly relevant anymore.

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Ultimate was relevant during 4.3. I'm not sure the relevance of your comment.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Yet this is where the meta comes from. This is why we're being asked to switch to/play AST.

Again, if you look only at easy content, no job this expac has needed buffs. DRK, BLM, SAM and so on could have been left exactly as they were.

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I reiterate, WHM had the best DPS out of all three healers in UwU. Where does that put WHM then?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

No, it's not. I've tried to say this in a few different ways so let me try again...

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does. While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

AST isn't struggling with MP, AST isn't struggling to heal prog parties, and so on and so forth. WHM isn't somehow better at healing.

And if you are really struggling, a RDM with MP support probably makes more difference than any particular healer choice. All healers suck when they have to hardcast rez, but all them have some tools to very slightly mitigate how much it sucks. Nothing compares to dualcast, though.

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You're misconstruing my comment.

WHMs kit is still a better triage kit then AST because:
1) More OGCDs to use (Tetra, Bene, Divine Benison, Asylum, Assize, Plenary Indulgence vs Earthly Star, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconsciousness)
2) Better MP kit (Thin Air, Assize vs Lightspeed)
3) GCD heals that augment the WHM oGCD kit

In a vacuum, the WHM kit is better than AST for triage healing.

My comment this entire thread is less about the AST vs WHM dynamic and more about what WHM's role is because that's what the OP asked for. It just happened to flow into that direction due to the replies I was getting.

Just because AST can clear the content at a world first level doesn't change the fact that the WHM kit is still better than AST for triage healing. It speaks more to the volume of the content design and the heal check requirements for the content because WHM can't bring its strengths to the table in any fashion.

WHM needs buffs. I don't disagree with that. But don't attack me and tell me I don't understand the context of your post when you don't understand mine.

[edit] And just for additional clarity. TLDR: The WHM triage kit is better than ASTs - but the AST kit does enough to get through the current raid content thus invalidating WHMs strength in the discussion. That's all.

Neither of you are dum dums, I've read plenty of your posts throughout the years. Stop it~

I'd say the white mage triage kit is being misrepresented simply by listing the OGCDs the class has as they all serve different purposes but they're certainly not all snap-demand saving graces (and these things should never be mentioned without giving proper consideration to their respective cooldowns as well). I'd argue this might make white mage a more flexible healer when it comes to what sort of triage needs attention, but really none of the OGCDs compare to the saving grace of Cure 3 in such parties since often the issue is healing multiple people ENOUGH to survive, and assize ain't gonna do it in a lot of those cases.

Same thing with the lilies - even in triage, hardcasting Cure 2 a bunch is not necessarily what's going to happen - expect to spend a lot on AoE (and regen should time allow on one target or you're moving), and at best you'll reduce the cooldown of tetra to still be greater than ED. Regardless, I get way more mileage in bad runs out of cure 3 than anything else, including the fact that it's a targeted heal.

Can't negate lightspeed's benefit of healing on the move during such triage, too. Noct Asp Benefic is very good at certain clutches as well.

It's a very muddied discussion because triage is catch all term for 'stuff is going bad' and that can mean a lot of things. For instance, an ED can save someone before lightning with vulnerability in Midgardsomr had they taken a hit because of its higher potency at lower HP values where Tetra or Lustrate would need to crit. WHM has benediction, true, but the delay on it honestly does make a difference in super snap situations like that. On the flipside Asylum gets to be used as raid healing should the situation arise or extra tank throughput, which is also needed if everyone's getting their collective butts handed to them. Meanwhile CU gets its own benefit of not requiring a stack (for long) to get the most mileage out of it. When chickens are running around like their heads are cut off, that can also be a godsend.

Scholar's fantastic at it if people happen to be spacing out their derps enough.

I'd say WHM is a bit more like an all purpose cleaner than the 'industrial strength gets the gunk out' material, but that doesn't make it the best across the board - just the most likely to have something to help out in more situations.

As for what content should be discussed when it comes to general class balance? Simple as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure there are those who will disagree, though.

Once classes are fine for 4-man content and normal 8-man, as in no one's gonna boot you for being one in a dungeon (and this is a long ways from happening to anyone) you move on to Savage.

Not ultimate. Savage. Ultimate is stretching current classes and design to their limit and that's going to cause changes and adaptations not seen in other fights. Remember when Yoshi apologized to black mages in advance for Bahamut? If they had adjusted BLMs for that fight before it came out they might have broken them way more for savage, much as it sucks for those at that level. Climb up the latter of progression. When people consider classes pretty well managed across the board for Savage, then you start nitpicking more into ultimate. This is also coincidentally balancing based on participation. I mean, there was that time before I played that warriors were considered ridiculously broken in 2.0, even in dungeons, right? They got adjustments.

It just so happens the bars are so low for things outside of Savage (and I suppose extremes) that we're so focused on savage raiding as the benchmark because the 'Is it bad relevant to the other choices' doesn't matter in the normal content. It'd have to be VERY broken for that. If we had something on par with, say, mythic+ dungeons that offered a higher difficulty and an alternative for a lot of players to savage, we'd have to consider that more as well. But we don't. That's not to say never consider content higher than Savage, but I would argue it's the content that should get the most focus for class balance as things stand.

We're still not at the point where no one is taking WHM for savage, too. Much as it sucks to feel like a significant detriment for not playing the others, WHM isn't at trash-tier levels.

Seems everyone here is on board with WHM needing adjustments because, however you want to say it, there is not enough current content that requires coordination or optimization that panders to any strengths WHM has. Whether that's accomplished by class adjustments or combat/encounter design changes, it will remain a problem until addressed.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

3) GCD heals that augment the WHM oGCD kit

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As a WHM main, it actually took me a minute to understand what you were talking about here.

Man the lily system is horrible lol.

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Originally Posted by Erakir

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+1, always love reading your comments xD I do agree perhaps I should've presented WHM kit as a more flex heal then triage healer. I think the one thing I like about the WHM kit is, even if the oGCDs may be smaller, you can combo a few of them together to get the desired effect - thus you always have something of a correct magnitude for the situation. You don't get that kinda of flexibility with other healers.

Which also means if 4 people are getting hit in 4 separate instances within a minute, WHM has the means to fix those problems without needing to stop their GCD outside of a potential clip - AST would definitely need to spend GCDs and SCH has to decide if it's worth the Lustrate cost or if the fairy can handle it (while removing any healing on the MT while this is going on).

I am in agreement that WHM isn't trash-tier level, but it definitely needs some love because AST and SCH just surpasses the solutions that WHM can bring.

[edit]I think Savage should be the benchmark for balance with some examination into the outliers that can showcase an individual class kit such as Ultimate, EX Primals, or 24-mans. Don't use Savage as the only benchmark, but I would say it should be considered for a good 60-70% of it as it would be the most played content that is tuned for any form of difficulty.[/edit]

If WHM gets a solid pDPS boost, even without a Lily fix, I wouldn't be surprised if WHM gets a shoe into the meta slot because of the high DPS contribution combined with the myriad of tools that allow it to heal anything.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

As a WHM main, it actually took me a minute to understand what you were talking about here.

Man the lily system is horrible lol.

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No disagreement here, lol. It sucks that the only time where a Lily feels like it means anything remotely is when things are going south really hard.

...I almost want to link my Lily proposal again but I don't think anyone really wants to see that dug out at this juncture, lol.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

+1, always love reading your comments xD

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The love is mutual <3

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

[edit]I think Savage should be the benchmark for balance with some examination into the outliers that can showcase an individual class kit such as Ultimate, EX Primals, or 24-mans. Don't use Savage as the only benchmark, but I would say it should be considered for a good 60-70% of it as it would be the most played content that is tuned for any form of difficulty.[/edit]

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Aye, I'm in agreement - I went back and added a similar outlier cause it felt wrong to say only savage, hehe. I admit I didn't consider the 24m as well (Or extremes, but I personally kinda view them as savage 'turn 0's if you will~). To be fair, heaven on high / potd stuff could be worth mentioning as well for the higher floors...but I think its reward structure would have to change to start seeing more people delving in and then getting frustrated if their jobs aren't great for it.....plus it doesn't have the gear structure preventing people from easily swapping, too, so there's that on top of it all.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

As a WHM main, it actually took me a minute to understand what you were talking about here.

Man the lily system is horrible lol.

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Actually, as WHM main, I can say that S-E should fix lily system to it become horrible.

As it is now, it's beyond horrible. It's just plain useless.

I think there are two abilities in particular which highlight what WHM's identity is when compared to the other healers. These are WHM's Assize and AST's Earthly Star.

To recap (but as most of you know) these are both abilities with a one minute cooldown (but less for WHM if you have lillies, but lillies are meaningless so just forget about that for now. Most WHM's do). Assize is a simple "you press the button, all baddies get a potency 300 attack, all allies get a potency 300 heal." It's awesome.

Earthly Star is a placed ground AOE. If you leave it there for at least 10 seconds it becomes a potency 200 attack and a potency 720 heal to everything in the area. Range is shorter than Assize.

So when comparing these what we see that Earthly Star is a more effective ability (unless we're just looking at these as oGCD attacks) than Assize but due to it's shorter range and the need to place the AOE ten+ seconds before it goes off it is much more fiddly to use properly. That's the difference between the two jobs as well- AST is more effective at most levels of play (or at least just as effective) but when you take into account it's various gimmicks (such as the cards) it is a more fiddly job to use well than WHM is. When we look at SCH and consider the importance of pet management, Atherflow management, the Faerie gauge etc, SCH is also more fiddly than WHM. That's what WHM is, it's the healer that doesn't have a fiddly gimmick. That is it's identity and while I agree that WHM could do with something of a rework to make the healers more balanced I think this identity should be preserved.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does. While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

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You don't have to ridicule someone's post by using big-sized black letters just because you don't have a little potential to argue and ratiocinate about what they're trying to say.
I'm tired, seriously, of your mindless posts, since the beginning of this expansion, about WHM. You don't even have your main bound to your forum's account, because you're afraid about what people will think, since they won't judge about your playstyle while you do it about the others. And whereas your ''best'' argument is: ''It's all about FFlogs''; why are you so afraid to show them, then?


But, anyway. Back to the topic.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

In the early weeks of progression raiding with low gear levels, AST meets all of the hardest healchecks in the game with the same ease white mage does.

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*Sigh* Another argument without a minimum of searching.
https://i.imgur.com/pShcUrF.png
This comes from the AST who is world's second UwU. Contradicting what you were saying above.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

with the same ease white mage does.

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https://i.imgur.com/lFrTL4Q.png
These are the clears from the past 2 weeks on UCoB (I don't know if you ever really tried it, but, according to your comment, you probably did all of the content progging as AST). Again, even tho AST had significant changes, we can still see how WHM shines, compared to the first, in that fight.

And these are the clears from patch 4.3 (when the AST changes came out) until now.
https://i.imgur.com/3Oa9TWR.png

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs.

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Well, the ''throwing out raid buffs'' is one of AST identities. And, yes. We know how ''good'' the Dev. team (we can see with the SMN and PLD's buffs, nerfs, buffs, nerfs While still doing more damage and throwing out raid buffs --- and i'm not even gonna start with SCH/WAR unecessary buffs---) is when we talk about balancing. While they finally made AST fun to play (back on the old dark days when the clipping was ridiculously insane), they made WHM players miserable... I unfortunately can't deny on that.

Now... Dear OP. I never have read that much of meaningless crap in my entire life. And, since I won't waste my precious time, I'd love if you could fix these whenever you can.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

AST - Introduced, but was very weak at the start due to improper potencies and MP management issues. Gained gradual buffs, and honestly NEVER got nerfed.

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AST had the Balance card nerfed in the beginning of Stormblood (while the change to Spear was to ''compensate'' it, that is still a nerf). Also have had increased MP consumption (due to Aspected Benefic having its MP increased by almost double of the initial value and Luminiferous Aether being a little more powerful than Lucid Dreaming).

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Come 3.4 it became stronger than WHM due to how Diurnal Sect gained a +10% Healing buff. It also brought strong utilities in terms of its cards.

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The +10% healing buff on Diurnal came, again, with Stormblood. Back on Heavensward it had +5% cast speed.

Regarding planetary indulgence, to me the core issue with this skill is the buff duration. You just can't use the 3 stack except on a select few mechanic (Os10 ark morn folloed by thunder for instance). If the buff had.a 30s duration, oh boy this would be good. We could actually spread our medica over time and pop that 3 stack whenever needed.

Regarding the lilies, I just can't wait to see what they'll add as a replacement.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Regarding planetary indulgence, to me the core issue with this skill is the buff duration. You just can't use the 3 stack except on a select few mechanic (Os10 ark morn folloed by thunder for instance). If the buff had.a 30s duration, oh boy this would be good. We could actually spread our medica over time and pop that 3 stack whenever needed.

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I'm really wondering why plenary indulgence needs a timer on it at all. It should be something you can rely on when you need it. I don't see it being such a broken thing, saving a medica cast or two per fight with Plenary. I actually wouldn't mind the spell if it functioned like this.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

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Why are you bringing up old, ilvl-sync'd content?

I'm talking about alphascape. Where gear ilvls are still low (though we're more than a month in now so yeah that is changing fast). But with AST solo healing ultimate I don't exactly think they're out in the cold on that either.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

And whereas your ''best'' argument is: ''It's all about FFlogs''; why are you so afraid to show them, then?

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Because people like you would only use it for ad hominem attacks. If you use aggregate statistics to make an argument, you don't need anyone's personal logs.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

WHMs kit is still a better triage kit then AST because:
1) More OGCDs to use (Tetra, Bene, Divine Benison, Asylum, Assize, Plenary Indulgence vs Earthly Star, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconsciousness)
2) Better MP kit (Thin Air, Assize vs Lightspeed)
3) GCD heals that augment the WHM oGCD kit

In a vacuum, the WHM kit is better than AST for triage healing.

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Still not sure I'd agree. Half those oGCDs you list aren't good for triaging. Bene and Tetra can make good emergency heals, but one is on a very long CD and even the shorter one is still longer than ED. And... lightspeed is really quite good if you need to throw out a lot of spotheals - instant benefic 2s at reduced cost, on the move if need be.

As for MP, no, still disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. But the best evidence is, instead of arguing over specific abilities and MP costs and what not - FF logs.

AST is doing just fine - more than fine really - keeping up very high levels of DPS and keeping everyone healed in the current tier even at low ilvls. This was not true before the AST MP buffs, but it sure is now. (I could also tell you that, running AST, the MP management felt as free as end-of-HW, but I think it's better to look at what hundreds~thousands of players are accomplishing on AST right now than to talk about personal impressions).

And then of course there is SCH. 3 instant oGCD heals every 45s, 6 in 30s if you hit a panic button. Of course SCHs would typically rather use those for other things, but... if you need to triage, they're there. WHM isn't shining here.

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Ultimately we're circling round, though. The point is still that WHM does not have more healing than other healers. They're all about equal, ultimately, and you can say "But look at this ability and that ability!" yet you have to ignore increasing amounts of performance data to claim otherwise.

And this is a problem when the others bring greater total contributions to the party.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Still not sure I'd agree. Half those oGCDs you list aren't good for triaging. Bene and Tetra can make good emergency heals, but one is on a very long CD and even the shorter one is still longer than ED. And... lightspeed is really quite good if you need to throw out a lot of spotheals - instant benefic 2s at reduced cost, on the move if need be.

As for MP, no, still disagree. You have to look at the whole picture. But the best evidence is, instead of arguing over specific abilities and MP costs and what not - FF logs.

AST is doing just fine - more than fine really - keeping up very high levels of DPS and keeping everyone healed in the current tier even at low ilvls. This was not true before the AST MP buffs, but it sure is now. (I could also tell you that, running AST, the MP management felt as free as end-of-HW, but I think it's better to look at what hundreds~thousands of players are accomplishing on AST right now than to talk about personal impressions).

And then of course there is SCH. 3 instant oGCD heals every 45s, 6 in 30s if you hit a panic button. Of course SCHs would typically rather use those for other things, but... if you need to triage, they're there. WHM isn't shining here.

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Ultimately we're circling round, though. The point is still that WHM does not have more healing than other healers. They're all about equal, ultimately, and you can say "But look at this ability and that ability!" yet you have to ignore increasing amounts of performance data to claim otherwise.

And this is a problem when the others bring greater total contributions to the party.

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I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm really wondering why plenary indulgence needs a timer on it at all. It should be something you can rely on when you need it. I don't see it being such a broken thing, saving a medica cast or two per fight with Plenary. I actually wouldn't mind the spell if it functioned like this.

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I like this idea a lot. Maybe reduce the potency of PI to 100, capping at 300 at three stacks would balance out the permanent stacks.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

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Fair enough, I suppose. No one cares which healer I pick for The Burn.

Re: PI. While it's not the most stellar skill, I don't really want to buffs to healing. The game is already overloaded with powerful heals.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

What exactly IS a White Mage?

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A pious, druidic healer reactive in style with no real buffs for the party outside the healing over time from Regen and Medica II. This is in contrast to the proactive scholars who shield and heal, and the gambling astrologians that are otherwise jacks-of-all-trades with some MP issues and timed actions like Earthly Star.

WHM's identity across the Final Fantasy series as a whole includes buffing the party on top of healing. Primarily defensive buffs too. Protect/Shell, the NulElement line in games that cared about those weaknesses, Float/Haste/Vanish/Blink before they became Time Magic, and more recently offensive buffs such as Bravery and Faith, if they're not tied to a green mage or another support class like Bard. They also had access to a number of crowd control spells but those are by no means WHM exclusive. I don't feel it would be a bad thing to give them defensive buffs in general for that reason, considering Protect is already this must-cast cross role spell that barely gives a nod to that. I could see WHM getting an ability that actually is comparable to Fey Covenant in power and uptime, maybe with a slightly lower cooldown, or affects all damage instead of just magic. Or hell make it a temporary mini-AoE thrill of battle and let WHMs actually take advantage of their raw healing in order to fill those bars higher than normal.

They don't need mitigation as much as a Lily rework and dps, but it would still fit within their identity to have it.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

A pious, druidic healer reactive in style with no real buffs for the party outside the healing over time from Regen and Medica II. This is in contrast to the proactive scholars who shield and heal, and the gambling astrologians that are otherwise jacks-of-all-trades with some MP issues and timed actions like Earthly Star.

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Unfortunately, AST currently is a master-of-all-trades with some small mp issues that become negligible with a ranged dps in your party and good play (correct use of lightspeed, extended lucid dreaming)

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

AST currently is a master-of-all-trades with some small mp issues

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Pretty much. They're able to do everything, just as good as everyone, with minor inconveniences such as Earthly Star taking 10s and having buffs tied to RNG.

Some people probably consider this good enough of a drawback, but to the skilled player this doesn't mean a thing.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Unfortunately, AST currently is a master-of-all-trades with some small mp issues that become negligible with a ranged dps in your party and good play (correct use of lightspeed, extended lucid dreaming)

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The fact AST has to depend on Refresh from a BRD or MCH makes it a worse job by design, in my opinion. It's hardly a "master" when it can't spread shields, summon a faerie, or instantly fully heal someone.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I will agree to disagree as well. It's clear that you'll just be focusing on Savage and find any argument outside of that scope irrelevant.

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To be fair there is no way to balance around non-Savage content and have that balance still work within Savage.

If they balanced around WHM being the best dungeon healer... well... actually that kind of seems to be what they've done ;-;

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

To be fair there is no way to balance around non-Savage content and have that balance still work within Savage.

If they balanced around WHM being the best dungeon healer... well... actually that kind of seems to be what they've done ;-;

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I'd argue that they balanced WHM around Alphascape (Normal) and 24-mans more than savage. These types of content have a lower skill floor and mechanics that won't instantly wipe you out, so healers will need to do much more patch work to keep a raid going versus Savage where the skill levels are higher and it's less about healing wounds and more about picking people up off the ground (or wiping) when mechanics are derped. It definitely doesn't help WHM's position in Savage raiding though as we can't utilize those strengths.

I'm in agreement that balancing around four mans is a pretty terrible balancing approach but there is content that exists between EX Roulette and Savage that should be considered when looking at total tool kits. As Erakir mentioned earlier (and I am in agreement with), there should be some consideration for high end HoH / PotD as well but the reward structure for that content would need to be improved if we are to seriously look into balancing jobs around that content as well.

I will admit, it's aggravating when many posters seems to misconstrued my comments that I am only talk about EX Roulette and content below that level when I clearly stated we should be considering all aspects of 8-mans with an emphasis on Savage, but make sure Savage is not the only focus. This comment isn't directed to you (Moro), just a general observation for posters who are wanting to pick my posts apart by straw manning "EX Roulette content".

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

The fact AST has to depend on Refresh from a BRD or MCH makes it a worse job by design, in my opinion. It's hardly a "master" when it can't spread shields, summon a faerie, or instantly fully heal someone.

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AST doesn't need a Refresh to stay healthy if they're making use of lightspeed.
Earthly Start and Benefic II+Essential Dignity can get you full health. Collective can also spread shields.

It's similar results with minor inconveniences.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

The fact AST has to depend on Refresh from a BRD or MCH makes it a worse job by design, in my opinion. It's hardly a "master" when it can't spread shields, summon a faerie, or instantly fully heal someone.

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You're not very familiar with healing in hard content, are you?

All 3 healers need refresh for high level play. None need it for low level play. Of course, when discussing "balance" we talk about high level play.

I’m surprised the discussion is continuing. From what I’ve seen, I’ll make sure to update the OP regarding AST. Though, about balancing between 24-man and dungeons...there isn’t any middle ground in terms of difficulty. Even the Extremes pale in comparison to Savage considering that the EX Primals are meant to lead INTO Savage for most jobs by default. Since players have gotten better and better, I’ve begun to wonder whether the dev team has been listening to our issues with WHM or not, since it feels like a few of our largest issues haven’t been answered at all since they took that much from WHM’s kit in Stormblood just to help the healer balance(which has been better, but has teetered back to Heavensward 3.4 as I’ve said before).

AST/SCH's healing needs a bit of planning due to the limitations they have. WHM although don't have cards/faries, always can power through the "oh shit" situations.

WHM is the 'selfish' healer. By this, I mean they don't have to worry about mitigating damage, micro managing a pet, or a card system to keep players buffed. This is SE's "pure healer". The healer without a gimmick. This is the strength of the job, yet players want to make it more complex when there are already two other healers to choose from to accomplish this goal. Why?

To me, I see AST as the WHM with the favorable utility. So why not just go AST in dungeons? Because I'm lazy as schite and don't want to worry about keeping members buffed when I can just Holy, Aero III, and Assize the living crap out of everything. That's why. At least I'm honest about it, which is why I say continue to make WHM and even greater dungeon mower where they can rip apart 4-man and 24-man.

Right now, WHM might not be better than the other two healers, but it sure in hell is a whole lot more fun to play than the other two healers. And this is without a gimmick other than their passive lilies.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

WHM is the 'selfish' healer. By this, I mean they don't have to worry about mitigating damage, micro managing a pet, or a card system to keep players buffed. This is SE's "pure healer". The healer without a gimmick. This is the strength of the job, yet players want to make it more complex when there are already two other healers to choose from to accomplish this goal. Why?

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Thank The Twelve that I am not only one thinking that

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Originally Posted by Gemina

WHM is the 'selfish' healer. By this, I mean they don't have to worry about mitigating damage, micro managing a pet, or a card system to keep players buffed. This is SE's "pure healer". The healer without a gimmick. This is the strength of the job, yet players want to make it more complex when there are already two other healers to choose from to accomplish this goal. Why?

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I don't think anyone ever suggested making whm more complex. Balanced =/= complex. RDM is now more balanced than before and it's still the same extremely easy and forgiving job it was in 4.0. Sure, it should be weaker than both AST and SCH given that it's by far the easiest healer, but right now it simply is not a desirable job to have in your party in 8-man content. As for dungeons, nobody really cares about dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

WHM is the 'selfish' healer. By this, I mean they don't have to worry about mitigating damage, micro managing a pet, or a card system to keep players buffed. This is SE's "pure healer". The healer without a gimmick. This is the strength of the job, yet players want to make it more complex when there are already two other healers to choose from to accomplish this goal. Why?

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Um. Not all suggestions are this way at all. Scaling up WHM DPS would just be adding potency on to stone and the aeros. No additional complexity at all. Giving WHM some competitive raid buffs would be 1 or 2 button additions. Yeah, it's a tiny bit more, but hardly at all.

Also, WHM has a gimmick, it's just extremely crappy outside of pvp.

"pure healer" is also pretty crappy when it doesn't heal better than the others (by necessity of raid balance).

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Right now, WHM might not be better than the other two healers, but it sure in hell is a whole lot more fun to play than the other two healers. And this is without a gimmick other than their passive lilies.

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Well, 'fun' is subjective. That being said, I don't want to be forced off WHM either, which is why I'm hoping SE can give WHM a niche instead of leaving it to rot until next expac, a la end of heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I don't think anyone ever suggested making whm more complex. Balanced =/= complex. RDM is now more balanced than before and it's still the same extremely easy and forgiving job it was in 4.0. Sure, it should be weaker than both AST and SCH given that it's by far the easiest healer, but right now it simply is not a desirable job to have in your party in 8-man content. As for dungeons, nobody really cares about dungeons.

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Asking for additional raid utility is asking to make the job more complex. How are you desiring balance when you make a statement that WHM should be weaker because it's the easiest healer? And what does RDM have to do with healer balance? Balance is a hanging carrot, and jobs leapfrog over the other trying to get it. And whether you care about dungeons or not, you still have to run them don't you?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Um. Not all suggestions are this way at all. Scaling up WHM DPS would just be adding potency on to stone and the aeros. No additional complexity at all. Giving WHM some competitive raid buffs would be 1 or 2 button additions. Yeah, it's a tiny bit more, but hardly at all.

Also, WHM has a gimmick, it's just extremely crappy outside of pvp.

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Again, giving it a couple raid buffs immediately makes the job more complex. I'm not saying it makes it complex I'm saying it makes it more complex than it is as it stands right now.

I assume you're referring to PvP protect? Would be nice to have in PvE wouldn't it? But we don't, so time to move on. And Protect in PvE is hardly a gimmick when all three healers have access to it.

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pure healer" is also pretty crappy when it doesn't heal better than the others (by necessity of raid balance).

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It doesn't need to heal better than the others, and never has. Optimization already comes from using as few gcds on cures as possible, correct?

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Well, 'fun' is subjective. That being said, I don't want to be forced off WHM either, which is why I'm hoping SE can give WHM a niche instead of leaving it to rot until next expac, a la end of heavensward.

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It doesn't need one. WHM is fine. It's niche is it has no niche. As I told the other poster, balance is a hanging carrot. 8-man has two slots for three available healers. It's musical chairs. Someone is going to get left out. Always. Giving WHM utility will either have it leapfrog over another healer, or keep right where it's currently at because SCH and AST is still better. Tanks have the same issue. Two slots. Three tanks.

You're asking for a balance that already exists. They are balanced because all of them are viable in 8-man, and can be cleared regardless of composition. All jobs are not created equal. They just aren't, and that is the reality. The only way to do this is to give them all the same abilities with maybe different names and animations, which would be boring.

Fun is subjective, and all I am saying is we have three healers, and each of them do bring something different to the table. I know utility is not one of them for WHM. What it does being is a straight forward play style for the healer that prefers to not have to focus on providing that utility. I love playing SCH and AST. They are phenomenal in 8-man. But sometimes, I want and have earned to be a little selfish, and WHM thankfully provides this.

The fact you couldn't figure out that WHM's gimmick is lilies (which are amazing in PVP due to the content featuring a much heavier reliance on GCD single target heals, as well as lilies providing a much more potent recast reduction [up to 50%]), not protect (which, to be fair, the PvP version is great), is pretty telling about the current state of affairs.

Saying WHM is "fine" when the class has a completely worthless, ignorable job mechanic, while also having no real strong point to it, is ridiculous. Every other class in the game at least has something it is supposed to excel at. WHM excels at nothing in comparison to its peers, beyond the nebulous usefulness of Cure 3.

Lilies aren't a gimmick. Perhaps an attempt at one. At best, it is a passive trait that goes mostly ignored. You even said it yourself in your second clause. "It has a completely worthless, ignorable job mechanic". So why are you trying to say it has a gimmick?

Just because you are dissatisfied with how current WHM plays does not mean it's not fine, or broken, or whatever negative connotation you would like to insert. Fact of the matter is it can be used to clear any content in this game just fine. Unless you'd like to dispute this as well with something other than it doesn't perform up to SCH and AST. Understand, this does not make a job unplayable.

I know it doesn't have a strong point. I am saying this is OK. You can say it's not, which is fine. But if you attempt to do so under the grounds that the job is broken or unplayable, it will only be erroneous because that is simply not true. If we want to make WHM great again, it's just going swap places with another healer. If you have the answer to stop the maddening leapfrogging of jobs I am quite sure the devs, and myself, are all ears.

I don't really think it's accurate to say that just because something's viable for clears it shouldn't get looked at, or given a more structured identity. Literally every class in the game can clear everything (except this quick glance isn't showing any BLM or SAM clears for UwU, but I think that's more a lack of numbers than anything). So by your logic every single class is "fine". Dark Knight doesn't need the rework that's been promised. All the machinists complaining their job doesn't feel good have no ground to stand on.

Hell, Bard was still meta in Heavensward and that changed the most with the launch of Stormblood.

And it changed because people didn't think the identity fit the class.

Right now I have my WHM bar set up with my heals and regens and bubbles and oGCDs set up in a certain way. When I swap to AST it's the exact same bar. Just replace one bubble that grants a regen effect with another. Replace Tetra with Dignity. Replace Assize with Earthly Star. It doesn't feel like WHM is "in a niche of not having a niche", it just feels like a watered down AST. Its identity just feels like "Not astrologian" rather than something to stand on its own.

This was the case in Heavensward, and it was certainly the case in Stormblood with the change to role actions. No other class in the game got gutted harder than White Mage by those, further eroding its already fading sense of identity.

I don't even care if they make it as complicated as Scholar, or whatever. I just want it to feel different to Astro, and not because it feels like it's had a mechanic cut away. I'm not even too stubborn to demand they change AST because "we were here first", I just want ONE of them to change.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It doesn't need one. WHM is fine. It's niche is it has no niche.

-snip-

You're asking for a balance that already exists. They are balanced because all of them are viable in 8-man, and can be cleared regardless of composition. All jobs are not created equal. They just aren't, and that is the reality.

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That is some really twisted logic.

Think we're going to have to agree to disagree. When WHM is only about equivalent in some areas and flat out weaker than the rest, with no defined strengths or advantages, I don't think white mage is balanced.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It doesn't need one. WHM is fine. It's niche is it has no niche.

-snip-

You're asking for a balance that already exists. They are balanced because all of them are viable in 8-man, and can be cleared regardless of composition. All jobs are not created equal. They just aren't, and that is the reality.

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That is some really twisted logic.

Think we're going to have to agree to disagree. When WHM is only about equivalent in some areas and flat out weaker than the rest, with no defined strengths or advantages, I don't think white mage is balanced.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The only way to do this is to give them all the same abilities with maybe different names and animations, which would be boring.

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Pretty much what SE did when creating AST. I have a problem with this for various reasons (constant balancing issues being one of them), but SE has repeatedly said they aren't changing it so the reality is: we have to ask for WHM vs AST to be balanced around this.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

I don't really think it's accurate to say that just because something's viable for clears it shouldn't get looked at, or given a more structured identity. Literally every class in the game can clear everything (except this quick glance isn't showing any BLM or SAM clears for UwU, but I think that's more a lack of numbers than anything). So by your logic every single class is "fine". Dark Knight doesn't need the rework that's been promised. All the machinists complaining their job doesn't feel good have no ground to stand on.

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Yeah. And this is how you know we're truly repeating heavensward again. Not sure why every time WHM is struggling, the go to defense for keeping WHM weaker than the others has to be "But it's fine in duty finder content!"

Least when you bring a BLM or a SAM, you know they can hit like a freight train, doing 1k+ DPS over the next highest - or more if the other DPS aren't particularly good. WHM just flat out offers less.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

snip.

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What do you want looked at? Seriously what is it exactly? You want WHM to have more utility? OK, speaking in theory let's give it to them, keeping in mind SEs history with making job adjustments. What happens? It leapfrogs because it brings something better, or remains stagnant because it doesn't. Either way, a healer is assed out and the rabblers start to echo.

You say WHM has no identity now. I beg to differ. Just because AST is better at next to everything than WHM does not give this job an identity of its own. The job literally ripped off of the WHM handbook. It IS a WHM with cards. Despite how well it plays, I think AST is one of the poorest designs in FFXIV because the devs could not figure out how to give it its own unique playstyle and identity. It's the letter 'C' in the American alphabet. If you know what I mean.

Again though, and I will say it a hundred times over: WHM is fine. If it were up to me, AST is the job I would rework from the ground up. The reason why I wouldn't rework WHM despite its struggles is because it plays like a WHM. That is why I say it is fine. There's another job that also plays like a WHM, and that's AST, which I'm not OK with. Everyone says it, "AST is a WHM with cards" so how is it that WHM doesn't have it's own identity?

DRK is a different story. It's not fine. This is a job I look at and say just because it can clear content does not mean it doesn't have issues that needs be addressed. WHM and DRK are not on the same boat.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Lilies aren't a gimmick. Perhaps an attempt at one. At best, it is a passive trait that goes mostly ignored. You even said it yourself in your second clause. "It has a completely worthless, ignorable job mechanic". So why are you trying to say it has a gimmick?

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Because this is all in reference to the comment on PvP last page, where lilies ARE definitely more of WHM's thing due to the nature of PvP requiring more hardcasted direct heals with much greater return on the cooldown reduction, which also sees more use again due to the less scripted nature of PvP. This doesn't change that we all know how lackluster it is in PvE, but it is definitely a bigger factor in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If you have the answer to stop the maddening leapfrogging of jobs I am quite sure the devs, and myself, are all ears.

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Sure. It's not necessarily easier, it's not necessarily fun for the devs, it has its own set of challenges. Said it in the past and I'll say it again. You have to differentiate classes enough to where analyzing their pros and cons with each other is much less tangible AND much more fight dependent. This also requires more varied content than what we have and more usable utility (Do note utility does not have to mean damage increases, it's a failing of XIV that they've gotten this mentality into people). WoW was doing this basically a decade ago, it's not a new thought process.

Nope, it doesn't stop a meta from existing. It opens up other doors for classes to be broken in other ways, but at the same time it opens up the potential for more combinations to work well off each other and to even play differently depending on who you've got with you in a fight. Yep, it's a big philosophy shift.

But Square seems to have no intention of designing content as such. Our extremely sad number of fights is part of it; you get less wiggle room to toy with. At best we got healing dragon heads in Shinryu EX, which is Valithria but not as interesting. At least it gave an idea of where it might be cool to have largesse and PoM both used specifically for healing. Doesn't have to be just healers, either. When you open up utility across the board for lots of jobs and not make everything immune to things in raids, you can get some interesting results. And I'll repeat, it has its own set of challenges to deal with.

However, so long as they continue this? So long as we have jobs that are as similar to one another as they are with fights having more or less the same types of challenges over and over again? We'll keep getting this war. Worst part is, it's basically for EVERY fight. The one who is behind will be behind in every fight. I vastly prefer other systems. God, it's going to become harder and harder as they keep adding DPS jobs and making the numbers match up well enough. It's another failing of only having damage to care about. Amazing how raise and refresh both muddy this water a little bit~

We're stuck with how Square is currently designing things, so we ask to be competitive in the ways that work with the current system. They're not changing AST. They've said so before. We're stuck with this horrible copy paste healer design and this is the result. Trust me I'd love to see AST changed. But it's seemingly not gonna happen.

By the way, two things.

One, before the AST changes, as good of QoL as they were, we had some of the best overall healer balance this game has ever seen. It was not without problems. Scholar was and is still an unquestionable god for raiding. Noct is still sad in comparison and Square will one day, if we're lucky, learn that buffing Asp Helios is not the way to make it comparable to SCH. All jobs could clear all content and some solo healing of ultimate kinda helped showcase this. The 'WHM progression, AST for DPS' was more accepted and at least seemed to be an alright compromise at the time. WHM lilies sucked and still sucked, but benison being not tied to them was a very welcome change that helped. We have watched happen exactly what we said was going to happen.

We went from what I would argue is BETTER healer balance to WORSE healer balance and that is somehow okay because WHM isn't 2.0 WAR levels?? (Neither was SCH, by the way, when it got its immediate adjustments during Stormblood's launch). No, that's not okay. That's a step down from where balance sat before, and I'm not okay with that. Nothing, nothing is broken right now by this logic and therefore it's okay and the developers shouldn't look at anything. No. Square might not care cause their numbers don't show a certain threshold or whatever, but if enough players are angry they take notice. See: the WHM pre-SB thread.

Second, don't ignore all the changes people have suggested as bandaid fixes that would not add any complexity to the job. Potency adjustments for DPS abilities, the 68 trait doing absolutely ANYTHING remotely tangible, enmity adjustments, changes to Plenary Indulgence to make it MORE friendly to use. There have been lots of these suggestions. There have been a lot of other ones too, because frankly people want their job to have a strength that isn't the "Netflix during dungeons" healer. The above changes also happen to be changes that would make the netflixing easier.

I take issue with people saying white mage is simple and braindead too. Hell, PI currently requires more planning to use well than any other healing ability in the game, and management of benison's CD to line up with good usage of it is a thing. It's not like Scholar isn't fantastic in dungeons too, and please don't tell me it's doing rocket science there because of Aetherflow charges and hitting a fairy regen button here and there. Scholar isn't as nearly as complex as people try to say as far as its skill floor is concerned.

I'll continue to say WHM is not broken broken at the moment but I'll also continue to argue for adjustments because this is the second expansion this has happened and it's the second expansion it's been avoidable/mitigatable with extremely simple changes, even if they're not the changes I'd ultimately want. It's the fact that there are SIMPLE changes to bring things more into balance, even if AST still stays on top in the raiding scene, that bothers me to no end.

Plus, I still want Square to live up to their own dumb word of White Mage being the raw damage healer, and until they change the dummies ingame that show you what you should be bringing to a group single target damagewise, I'm gonna hound them for it. We know why WHM brings the most dummy damage and why it doesn't hold up in raid content. We also know these were dummies were specifically introduced as raid benchmarks as an 'answer' to ACT. So. Square - get on it, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What do you want looked at? Seriously what is it exactly?

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I don't even mind that White Mage isn't the best at everything. Even if 5.0 comes and goes and we're still sitting in 3rd place (or 4th if Dancer turns out to be a thing), that's fine. What bothers me is that it doesn't bring anything to really make up for it. It's like they're not even trying.

The issue is 100% that AST is just WHM with cards, and you know what the bottom line with that is? They have cards. That's their identity. And that's fine, in fact I think it's great. Unfortunately when you have <thing> and <thing with bonus> it kind of detracts from the original.

We could sit here and say that AST needs to be changed, and if Yoshi announced that was happening I'd be happy, but let's be honest: nobody wants things taken away when you could in fact add elsewhere. So the realistic answer is to fill the void that WHM had gouged out of it earlier. They tried it with the lilies, but they didn't go nearly far enough.

The overarching problem is their insistence that we need a pure healer. Which is a fantastic identity when you give it room to flex. But as has been said many times before, outside of extremely niche cases, AST dunks all over WHM in that regard, too. So comparing a pure healer to a healer + literally anything is already a losing battle because every healer can be a pure healer if required. If everyone's super, then nobody is.

It could be scholar is raw heals + shields, astro is raw heals + cards, and white mage is raw heals + regen or something. They could have gone for that. That would have given them an identity and probably wouldn't have left AST a quivering wreck as regens are a nice bonus to save a GCD here or there, but won't make or break fights. But as it stands, with AST being WHM + cards, WHM is really just AST - cards, and when you're already drawing a defecit you need to bring something to the table, which WHM really isn't.

The argument I've seen thrown around a lot is that we're the oGCD healer, but that's not really the case, is it?
-White Mage has Tetra (700 potency on 60s) and Astro has Dignity (400 potency, unless this calculation I'm looking at has been altered it hits 700 potency at 50% HP, which is when you'd be using it anyway, on 40s)
-WHM has Assize (300 damage, 300 healing, 15y, 60s) and AST has Star (150 damage, 540 healing, 8y, 60s). And AST's only gets stronger if you let it sit.. And as fights in this game are scripted heavily that's not an issue. The MP on Assize is nice, true.
-WHM has Asylum (100 healing for 24s for 800 total. 90s cooldown) and AST has Unconscious (150 healing for 18s for 900 total. 90s cooldown. Also damage reduction). Asylum requires the targets remain inside the bubble while AST can pop it then instantly drop it. Both are the same size.
-WHM has Plenary Indulgence which, let's be honest, isn't the best ability...it's ok to turn a 300 potency Medica into a 450 one, but it doesn't get too much play. Still pretty nice, but you need to hardcast to prep it so not really relevant to this point.
-WHM has Benediction (100% heal on 3 min) which people really should use more as an oGCD heal than they do because planning to use it does free up time, but in uncoordinated play I can understand people holding it. This is probably the only one so far I'd say that WHM has something over AST. And even then that's 3 minutes and potentially held.
-WHM has Benison (15% shield on 30s) which is actually really good after the changes cut the lily requirement. Only really useful for tankbusters or if you can just see that one guy is going eat it.
-AST has access to Lady of Crowns (500 healing, potentially every 30s). You'd want to avoid this if possible as if you have it then you don't have Balance/Spear, or even Lord, but it's still a really good ogcd heal.

Overall, I'd say AST is still the better ogcd healer. But I'll admit that depends how much weight you put on Bene/Beni.

Just give us something. Lack of identity isn't an identity.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Just because AST is better at next to everything than WHM does not give this job an identity of its own.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

DRK is a different story. It's not fine. This is a job I look at and say just because it can clear content does not mean it doesn't have issues that needs be addressed. WHM and DRK are not on the same boat.

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Your logic fascinates me, in a way - a similar way to an MC Escher painting.

Anyways. So there are many, many suggestions for how to help out WHM. Total reworks of lillies that community members have contributed detailed writeups about. Adding some utility (which WHMs in FF titles normally have, it's only FF14 where they don't). And many other things. But, ok, you don't like that.

So why not borrow from DPS balancing and just scale up WHM damage? Still plays exactly the same, doesn't lose any of its... "identity of having no identity" that you think it has.

But now it brings something to the table. It won't be meta without the buffs, but at least it can contribute to a faster overall kill time, help bring down DPS-check adds, and so on. And it doesn't require a lot of development work. Tweak some numbers and it's good. Vs the current situation where WHM-running teams are at a flat out disadvantage and will have a harder time dealing with DPS-check phases/adds/etc, as well as the overall enrage time.

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But really, personally, I just want WHM to be good at something. I'd take any suggestion that makes WHM an asset instead of a liability.

I'd rather they not change too much with AST.
If the problem is that AST shares a base with WHM, plus cards, then the issue is that WHM doesnt have a signature. It needs a rework of lilies.