FFXIV: Endgame as it is now and what it once was, how do you feel?

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Nice try, but if you actually read my OP, that is the FURTHEST from the truth...

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Its not just a try its basically how it will end up if you intended to or not because mostly raiders use fflogs.

Like i said before: FFLOGS did nothing bad to the game, its the people who don't know how to use it properly and the people who call everything evil witchcraft what could show people how good or bad they play.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

How did fflogs destroy the game? Its just an homepage which shows you, in detail, how your fight went which is a good thing if people would only know how to use it properly.

The only thing that has a bad influence on the game are people who don't know how to use given tools, like a parser and fflogs, properly and the people who constantly keep complaining about these tools.

(Yes its just another "FFlogs is evil = Parsers are evil = raiders, who use it, are evil" thread.)

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Generally the easy Fix is to make it opt in not opt out.

My data's hidden on there because I really can't be bothered parsing everything i do and uploading it. so if i've ran 500 bit of content and there's 10 parses on there it's not exactly accurate. admittedly ive slowed down recently sick of the treadmill grind so cant be bothered keepingm y gear upto date. but way back in 4.0 there were times i was kicked from sus ex parties because my logs were bad.. i'd cleared that fight 60+times with no real issues but there were 3 recorded logs of me on that sight uploaded by someone else. and party leaders would use those 3 to judge my performance.

3 out of 60 is not accurate. and as i said in an older topic there's only 2 ways to prevent this. 1 is hide my logs. 2 is parse absolutely everything myself and upload every single fight i do so that the few random bad ones get flushed out...... option 1 is infinitely less hassle than option 2...

if logs was opt in instead of opt out then a lot of the negativity around it simply wouldn't exist as generally speaking the only players you'd be able to see on there are players who chose to use it. which in turn would help people who literally only exist on there as a result of a very random selection of encounters they just happened to be in.

There's also quite a common opinion that seems to go around that if you don't have parses on there for such and such it means you can't do whatever it is. like oh hey no savage parses. he can't do savage... when for many people it's not a question of can or can't do something it's simply wanting to vs not wanting to..

again many players see the rewards as crap trash junk and the challenge of the content as to short lived to even bother with... everything gets nerfed anyway so whats the pointttttt

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Its not just a try its basically how it will end up if you intended to or not because mostly raiders use fflogs.

Like i said before: FFLOGS did nothing bad to the game, its the people who don't know how to use it properly and the people who call everything evil witchcraft what could show people how good or bad they play.

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Well... I can't control people and their opinions and I won't try. I'll just try my best to ask others to keep it within the range of my OP. But it is what is, this is the forums after all.

But just to be clear, I don't think the actual data and site of FFlogs killed raiding for me... no. It's how people decided to use it in the way they used it that did. For me, like I said earlier, the competition and inherit idea that all must fit into one size fits some box is what I don't care for and have a hard time finding others who feel the same way I do inside the game.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Well... I can't control people and their opinions and I won't try. I'll just try my best to ask others to keep it within the range of my OP. But it is what is, this is the forums after all.

But just to be clear, I don't think the actual data and site of FFlogs killed raiding for me... no. It's how people decided to use it in the way they used it that did. For me, like I said earlier, the competition and inherit idea that all must fit into one size fits some box is what I don't care for and have a hard time finding others who feel the same way I do inside the game.

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Well peoplle who decide to compete in fflogs do their own thing and its fine as long as they don't try to involve everyone in their competition. I don't care for that competition, for me fflogs is stricktly a tool for analysing.

As someone who has no desire to do Savage raids (most of which seem akin to learning a dance), I'm glad the Normal (story) mode exists... though admittedly the main challenge of fights like O9 and O10 seems to be not falling asleep; O11 and O12 do a much better job, but Alexander Midas is still my favourite tier overall. I don't begrudge Savage though (or Ultimate), as I know a lot of players do enjoy them, and it's always good to have something to aim for.

I do think it is high time SE looked at implementing an official in-game parser though (that they have full control over), and outright banning third-party parsers (and by extension FFlogs) ... I mean parsers are useful (even in individual runs), are already widely used, and do give an advantage; so why are they restricted to only a portion of the player base (i.e. PC players) and officially allowed to be used even for such things (which could be considered cheats) as call-outs* when they aren't officially supported?

* World first UCoB clear has (or had at the time) call-outs in their video and (AFAIK) SE said nothing.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Some people aren't really seeing some of the things I'm saying, but I digress on that part.

On the part that people are, and are disagreeing with me on my views. I understand you all have your opinions and views. But you most likely all have had mostly if not anything but positive outcomes with the people you run into or static with. Again there isn't anything wrong with wanting to always do better. But I personally feel expecting everyone to be at the 100% top percentile and the "best" or even close to it as possible is just an extremely unrealistic ideal.

Everyone out there playing this game will never play the same exact way. Everyone will always have some varying degrees of play-styles and especially strategies that will most likely show varying skills and numbers in the long run. No two people play exactly the same. I'm not saying everyone expects this because I know that isn't true. But it's more expected now days and widely excepted practice then during 2.XX raiding.

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It personally sounds like you are having some kind of internal struggle with people's play styles honestly, correct me If I'm wrong. I mean, there isn't really anything preventing you from getting a group together If all you want out of raiding Is the feeling of downing the content and that's it, I can't say that's a successful formula once you get into savage and ultimate content but if you can manage to find a group of good players that don't bother with FFlogs that have the ability to down the content you are trying to tackle, more power to you.


That being said, most players that are progression raiders and have savage/ult kills under their belts are most likely uploading their logs and constantly trying to improve themselves and outside of the initial competition of World/Realm firsts that's how they enjoy raiding. Also, just because fflogs didn't exist in early ARR doesn't mean people weren't trying to improve their game play or kill times. The concept of playing as optimally as you possibly can has existed long before there were tools to track such data. Times change as do the players and their play styles, competition is just the nature of the beast when it comes to MMO's both in PVE and PVP. The only real solution to your problem is creating your own group where everyone enjoys tackling the content in the same way that you do. There isn't anything wrong with that, It's a game after all so enjoy it the way you see fit by finding others that feel the same.

I know this horse has been beat to death but I believe the whole Gordias Savage started this huge shift in the game to a dps race....

No FFLOGs are not evil but the thirst for higher numbers cause things such as arguments about why someone else feels like they deserve the dragoon tether, or who feels they deserve the AST cards and the worse to me is forcing meta and cutting out casters or certain jobs as if that's the reason the groups keeps hitting enrage.

It's not parsers or logs it's the people who cannot control their own behavior when it comes to these very helpful tools. Like logs are the best thing to me (PS4 player) lol but I won't go on a tangent.

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Originally Posted by Selova

It personally sounds like you are having some kind of internal struggle with people's play styles honestly, correct me If I'm wrong. I mean, there isn't really anything preventing you from getting a group together If all you want out of raiding Is the feeling of downing the content and that's it, I can't say that's a successful formula once you get into savage and ultimate content but if you can manage to find a group of good players that don't bother with FFlogs that have the ability to down the content you are trying to tackle, more power to you.


That being said, most players that are progression raiders and have savage/ult kills under their belts are most likely uploading their logs and constantly trying to improve themselves and outside of the initial competition of World/Realm firsts that's how they enjoy raiding. Also, just because fflogs didn't exist in early ARR doesn't mean people weren't trying to improve their game play or kill times. The concept of playing as optimally as you possibly can has existed long before there were tools to track such data. Times change as do the players and their play styles, competition is just the nature of the beast when it comes to MMO's both in PVE and PVP. The only real solution to your problem is creating your own group where everyone enjoys tackling the content in the same way that you do. There isn't anything wrong with that, It's a game after all so enjoy it the way you see fit by finding others that feel the same.

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Even though you quoted me, it feels like you didn't read it properly (or maybe I can't communicate correctly, idk.) I have not said ANYTHING about people's play styles for one. I was using as an example that people's play styles can be different, they change over time, and ofc (and especially true in the world first race) strategies differ from others when doing raids new and fresh and sometimes even in farming.

Maybe to you personally or to others personally you feel raiding is that, just another numbers competition. AND AGAIN I STRESS THIS SO NO ONE MISUNDERSTANDS ME PLEASE! I do not and have no issue with parsers and the like when doing any kind of raiding. Be it farming, progression, etc. It's useful tools like that, that can help your team mates ad yourselves complete raids seamlessly and efficiently. But as of right now, the only content that includes an actual "numbers" game attached to it and breeds and wants competition is PVP. Yes we all acknowledge and even Yoshi and the devs acknowledge the world first race. But unless you're trying to go for that, most don't normally care to attempt it. Numbers game is not integrated at all into this specific PVE content at this time. Trying to compare yourself to others is not part of the game at this time as far as Savage/Ultimate goes.

Again I do like parsing and love to use it to improve myself and get help and advice/pointers to strive to be a better me. To do MY best. I don't care to be THE best. IF my best were to happen to be THE best then sure why not. But I strive for my own good quality of playing that can help me and my team mates achieve our goal. My goal is not being compared to others and how well they did. I want to be able to stand on my own merits w/o constantly being reminded I should be more like this person or that person...

And yeah... I could make my own group... and yeah that gets thrown around here a lot. But as you said earlier, times and people change. It's not easy to make or find a group that always feels the same as you have. I have tried and failed. In PuGs, making my own static, and trying to join a new or preexisting static. AGAIN I stress these are my own experiences and not a general outlook. I only speak for myself, but as far as finding these things for myself, it's not been easy.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

I do think it is high time SE looked at implementing an official in-game parser though (that they have full control over), and outright banning third-party parsers (and by extension FFlogs) ... I mean parsers are useful (even in individual runs), are already widely used, and do give an advantage; so why are they restricted to only a portion of the player base (i.e. PC players) and officially allowed to be used even for such things (which could be considered cheats) as call-outs* when they aren't officially supported?

* World first UCoB clear has (or had at the time) call-outs in their video and (AFAIK) SE said nothing.

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That's what the Duty Recorder is, they just fumbled it so it doesn't do what players want it for. People use third party tools to grief other players, thus those players leave the game and don't come back.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's what the Duty Recorder is, they just fumbled it so it doesn't do what players want it for. People use third party tools to grief other players, thus those players leave the game and don't come back.

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No, the Duty Recorder is nothing more than a crappier version of Twitch with a ridiculous amount of limitations—limited only to 3 recordings for one fight (though, now I hear they finally hit a milestone and have allowed it to function with TWO FIGHTS) that one can only view upon exiting the instance and retiring to an Inn Room first. There are so many other streaming sites and/or recording software that does it better than the Duty Recorder could ever hope to do.

That’s why it was DOA; not because of some invented scenario where people cannot use it “to grief other players”. And anyone who thinks that any streaming service can be an adequate substitute for a quantitative measurement of performance in any given fight just tells me that they don’t understand how either tool functions. Recordings and logs are used in tandem with one another to analyze performance. One cannot be a substitute or replacement for the other.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's what the Duty Recorder is, they just fumbled it so it doesn't do what players want it for. People use third party tools to grief other players, thus those players leave the game and don't come back.

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Just because that's what you would use it for doesn't mean that's what the vast majority would use it for.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's what the Duty Recorder is, they just fumbled it so it doesn't do what players want it for. People use third party tools to grief other players, thus those players leave the game and don't come back.

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After how many years, I think you need to let go of your petty grudges, Kisai.