Why do the bosses/raids in this game feel so lifeless?

I think all the extreme fights are pretty cool and lively in my opinion. I think the voice acting helps, and the mechanics are very much around who they are as a boss in style. I would generally agree on savage content, it becomes more about doing ridiculous mechanics then an exciting fight. o11&12s seem more exciting though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Omega feels flat because it's fanwank in the form of, essentially, a tournament arc. Alphascape gets it worse because we get three more fights after the tournament. And the last one is pretty much a case of "That wasn't even my final form!" I was starting to wonder if we were still on Namek for a bit.

---

Exactly my feelings on omega. I hate contextless fanservice, and I hate tournament arcs. Omega was the worst of both worlds.

I feel ya, I can't enjoy the look of the bosses cause it's all just a dodgefest waiting for the next stupid telegraph or random whatever bullshit. I don't need stupid mechanics just for the sake of there being mechanics to have fun!

Because with few exceptions raids are a disjointed pile of microinstances filled with throwaway bosses that have little to no story relevance.

I personally share the feelings that a couple other people in this thread have expressed. Let's be real; the Omega 'raids' aren't raids. You get dumped in a pretty standard arena and fight a boss. These are basically glorified trials, not raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

Why is there 2 Coeurl O’Nine Tails guarding magiteck terminals in the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak? Aren't they plants who need sunlight?
Why is there a Great Yellow Pelican, Deep Jungle Coeurl in Brayflox's Longstop? Are they guarding the Dragon? If so, why does the Dragon just eat the Hellbender in the middle of the fight?
In Dzemael Darkhold, an army of Voidsent have been sent into the realm, conveniently with 3 random bosses that just sit around far apart from each other waiting for adventures to attack them.
In The Wanderer's Palace, there's a Goobbue and a Flan guarding it as bosses, despite it being a Nymian Palace taking over by Tonberry. Are Tonberry allied with the flan or something?
Snowcloak is Ysayle's hideout, yet it's guarded by an Elemental, an Abominable Snowman and Fenrir. Like why? Did the heretics form an alliance with the Yeti or something? Do the wildlife of Coerthas support the heretic cause?
That's just up to level 50, and I could go on.

---

They're not 'guarding' anything they just happen to be there. They're just monsters that made t hose places their lair. The plants are probably predatory in totorak, preying on the mice or something. Flans aren't allied with tonberries there's just a flan creature lurking there. As for the voidsent in the Darkhold, that's just how dungeons are structured in any MMO I've ever played. It wouldn't be much of a dungeon if the first thing you fought sounded an alarm and then the whole dungeon bumrushed you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphire_Dianta

I personally share the feelings that a couple other people in this thread have expressed. Let's be real; the Omega 'raids' aren't raids. You get dumped in a pretty standard arena and fight a boss. These are basically glorified trials, not raids.

---

This was a huge disapointment for me in Deltascape because I'd been thinking the raid would be about us pursuing Omega through the rift, maybe competing with some Garleans or something to try and catch up to it first. Instead we got a fanservice tournament arc where the bosses weren't even recontextualized for FF XIV, save for Midgar and Omega itself.

Because it's just a script. You don't have any variance whatsoever because they are not measuring your skills as a gamer, but as a clicker/dodger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

This was a huge disapointment for me in Deltascape because I'd been thinking the raid would be about us pursuing Omega through the rift, maybe competing with some Garleans or something to try and catch up to it first. Instead we got a fanservice tournament arc where the bosses weren't even recontextualized for FF XIV, save for Midgar and Omega itself.

---

To be fair, there was some element of chasing and being tested prior to the actual boss fights - it was just in the questline leading up to it. And they very much did recontextualize them, they just never set out to make them actual parts of the XIV world and lore, there's a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackHatchet

I loved the vault. I loved that every npc and boss felt like it belonged there.

I didn't really notice it as an issue until recently, but it's annoying/confusing when bosses are really random. For example in Lighthouse. The creature you fight on top with the little arms. What species is he? How did he come to exist? Was he just some concept sketch someone drew, and was like 'yeah, fighting this will be fun!"

It doesn't matter what game. I just hate 'cool sketch, let's fight it' bosses. I like bosses that come from known species, and have a logical reason to be wherever they are. At least if story is important. I know that Deltascape was specifically to be a 'let's fight 'cool sketch bosses,' but it's annoying anywhere else.

I don't even know what species exdeath or chaos are, or how the ghost train is haunted. How are ghosts in this game anyways? I'm sure there's some lore with how undeath works.

---

Yiazmat is some weird dragon thing from Final Fantasy XII. I don't think he's explained there. Here, at least, XIV gives the explanation of "Ba'Gamnan wanted a powerful form to destroy the Empire with, so he turns into a big dragon robot thing."

For ffxiv raids i think a major issue is that the only boss anyone cares about is the last one and we only get one last boss per expansion. all of the omega bosses except for omega was just fanservice with no presence in the story or build up or any thing. Alexander was the same where The only bosses that appeared in the storyline before you fought them was the goblin tank guy in A7 and alexander in A12. Coil had Nael, Phoenix and bahamut. So the overwhelming majority of raid encounters have no build up, no story, and can be boiled down to "fight for the sake of fight". Omega felt especially bad because the enemies you're fighting are literally only there to test your might, they aren't bad character they aren't even characters. They're nothing as far as the game and world are concered.

For a game that prides themselves on the story it literally doesn't give a shit about the raid stories. They aren't voice acted, they don't even have any characters, they are off shoots of the story and have no impact on the world itself. What happens in 5.0 if we don't beat omega? Nothing, there's no weight to anything raid wise and this has always been the case, but at least coil was uncovering something incredibly relevant to the world and I'm sure im not the only one who got interested in the game from that sick ARR cinematic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

They're not 'guarding' anything they just happen to be there. They're just monsters that made t hose places their lair. The plants are probably predatory in totorak, preying on the mice or something. Flans aren't allied with tonberries there's just a flan creature lurking there. As for the voidsent in the Darkhold, that's just how dungeons are structured in any MMO I've ever played. It wouldn't be much of a dungeon if the first thing you fought sounded an alarm and then the whole dungeon bumrushed you.

---

So then why haven't the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak attacked the 2 Coeurl O'Nines already? Why aren't the Tonberry attacking the Goobbue and Flan that have occupied their castle? Why aren't the wildlife attacking the heretics in Snowcloak?
This is what I mean about low player engagement, your attacking random things, purely because they randomly happen to be there, just like the Garbage Boss from FFXIII that attacks you when your in a junkyard. It really isn't terribly hard to write a dungeon when they just fill it with random things blocking your path. Since I don't want to play the Warrior of Light as a psychopathic mass murderer, I'd like to know why I'm killing all these random creatures. It's the Evil Empire's logic to kill them "Just because they're in the way".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roda

For me, I was completely disconnected from this raid tier 'cause this is the only FF game I've ever cared about.

---

It was the same for me too, I have played one other FF game but I still would have found it strange to see its bosses in our world with barely any explanation at all. I did enjoy the ending of the omega raid because it was finally focusing more on Omega, Midgardsormr and their conflict but sadly that does not really make up for the imo medicore story before that.

I really hope that the next raids (be it 24 man or 8 man) are more original. That does not mean that it has to be without any fanservice but maybe less obvious and more hidden. Maybe more of those hints which you might miss but others can point them out and you are like "wow true, thats awesome" instead of hitting you right in the face with it. That might be great for those that want that fanservice in the game but for others it might make the raid less interesting.

(But I am also of the mind that they should generally tone down the meta jokes and other direct "funny" ones like they for example did in the four lords. Because its at a point where I have a hard time taking some things seriously at all.)

I wish raid bosses would chat with me. I wish we could take a cup of tea together while waiting that friggen AST to get his friggen cards. I wish raid boss-kun would react to my emotes. I wish I could give raid boss-kun some cookies so he smiles. I wish our party could {/gpose} the power ranger emotes with raid boss-kun. I wish raid boss-kun notice me.

Basic voice acting for raid bosses can make an encounter/character memorable.
Same as some basic story writing, it just adds something extra.
I'm not sure how it is in Stormblood , since I'm still stuck in Heavensward though up to now I haven't seen much voice acting.

WOW is a good example how it helps, the story isn't very good most of the time (if not down right stupid).
It's usually more of an excuse why you are going to smack an important lore character around.
However the voice acting , the delivery of the lines and the gags make it breathe.

An encounter can still be very memorable because of it, even though it might just been average.



When I started this game and ended up fighting Garuda the first thing I missed was just basic voice acting.
It's a shame since if ARR does one thing exceptional well it is the music, it would make it in my eyes perfect if it came together.

I fear random dungeon/raid bosses are just a problem of MMOs altogether, not just this one. When I played SWTOR, the number of dungeon bosses with buildup could be counted on one hand. And by buildup, I mean more than just one cutscene introducing them (which barely any bosses got anyway).

I do hope that whatever raid superboss they have next time, it gets them away from the "insert fanservice here" that Omega was. The gear was nice, but the plot was... non-existant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

So then why haven't the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak attacked the 2 Coeurl O'Nines already? Why aren't the Tonberry attacking the Goobbue and Flan that have occupied their castle? Why aren't the wildlife attacking the heretics in Snowcloak?
This is what I mean about low player engagement, your attacking random things, purely because they randomly happen to be there, just like the Garbage Boss from FFXIII that attacks you when your in a junkyard. It really isn't terribly hard to write a dungeon when they just fill it with random things blocking your path. Since I don't want to play the Warrior of Light as a psychopathic mass murderer, I'd like to know why I'm killing all these random creatures. It's the Evil Empire's logic to kill them "Just because they're in the way".

---

They're violent and they're in your way and will attack you on sight, because they're monsters or aggressive wildlife. It's not like you're storming into an orphanage and killing everyone for giggles. And when we are fighting sentient beings there's a story reason for why we're doing it. Monsters are, at BEST depending on the type of monster, violent wildlife that will kill you over food or territory just for being where you are so you don't have much choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I fear random dungeon/raid bosses are just a problem of MMOs altogether, not just this one. When I played SWTOR, the number of dungeon bosses with buildup could be counted on one hand. And by buildup, I mean more than just one cutscene introducing them (which barely any bosses got anyway).

I do hope that whatever raid superboss they have next time, it gets them away from the "insert fanservice here" that Omega was. The gear was nice, but the plot was... non-existant.

---

Yeah. In WoW, SOME bosses have buildup, but certainly not all of them. They generally do a better job than FF XIV of giving more build up, but not always, and certainly not for every boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

So then why haven't the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak attacked the 2 Coeurl O'Nines already? Why aren't the Tonberry attacking the Goobbue and Flan that have occupied their castle? Why aren't the wildlife attacking the heretics in Snowcloak?
This is what I mean about low player engagement, your attacking random things, purely because they randomly happen to be there, just like the Garbage Boss from FFXIII that attacks you when your in a junkyard. It really isn't terribly hard to write a dungeon when they just fill it with random things blocking your path. Since I don't want to play the Warrior of Light as a psychopathic mass murderer, I'd like to know why I'm killing all these random creatures.

---

Honestly it's just an RPG/video game standard. Not every RPG can be an Undertale where each enemy has an individual outlook on life and a backstory to make you empathize with them. Sometimes a monster is just a monster and it'll kill us if we don't kill it. And as for why there aren't conflicts between enemies where it should make sense, that's an RPG thing. Remember almost every other FF forever would have random battles where flying cats, walking flowers, goblins and hey why not a mantis fight you all at the same time?

When you're fighting other sapient beings though (insert Garleans, heretics, resistance) it almost always gives you a story reason why you are fighting them. Most times we're not the outright aggressor but are reacting to a situation that needs handling and they would kill us for it.

I'd argue the low engagement mainly comes from the lack of actual stakes in the fights. Oh no we died, now what? Respawn and try again since all you lost was a bit of time. If there's nothing to lose then the fights all feel completely lacking in punch or importance. But that's a gameplay issue more than an immersion issue though it does contribute to it a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

They're violent and they're in your way and will attack you on sight, because they're monsters or aggressive wildlife. It's not like you're storming into an orphanage and killing everyone for giggles. And when we are fighting sentient beings there's a story reason for why we're doing it. Monsters are, at BEST depending on the type of monster, violent wildlife that will kill you over food or territory just for being where you are so you don't have much choice.

---

So how come these violent attack-on-sight aggressive monster aren't attacking each other? There's no immersion here when these super aggressive monsters are just sitting in the middle of a hostile dungeon filled with hostile creatures. I call BS.
Seriously, I have to wonder if Square Enix made the next dungeon with a homeless refugee camped out where the first boss would be, that 99% of the player base would attack that homeless person immediately because they've been conditioned to attacking anything in their way in a dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilverObi

Honestly it's just an RPG/video game standard. Not every RPG can be an Undertale where each enemy has an individual outlook on life and a backstory to make you empathize with them. Sometimes a monster is just a monster and it'll kill us if we don't kill it. And as for why there aren't conflicts between enemies where it should make sense, that's an RPG thing. Remember almost every other FF forever would have random battles where flying cats, walking flowers, goblins and hey why not a mantis fight you all at the same time?

When you're fighting other sapient beings though (insert Garleans, heretics, resistance) it almost always gives you a story reason why you are fighting them. Most times we're not the outright aggressor but are reacting to a situation that needs handling and they would kill us for it.

I'd argue the low engagement mainly comes from the lack of actual stakes in the fights. Oh no we died, now what? Respawn and try again since all you lost was a bit of time. If there's nothing to lose then the fights all feel completely lacking in punch or importance. But that's a gameplay issue more than an immersion issue though it does contribute to it a lot.

---

True, sometimes a monster is just a monster. I'd argue that FFXIV relies on it a bit too much. Like I said, it's really takes no effort to write the story of a dungeon as "random bosses are in your way" and the players can sense when little effort has been put into a dungeon. Sure, you can spice up random monster with death consequences, but I still say that the engagement level remains low, like on the level of Eureka Amenos. However, if you actually develop these bosses in the story, the fight because far more meaningful, even on repeats. The act of taking a life should be a tragedy, not just a cheap adrenaline rush.

https://i.imgur.com/vQIxgMj.png
"Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear." - Myste

I see where you're coming from, but honestly I wouldn't expect every encounter to have a level of depth or narrative importance that one would get from a character that had an entire expansion or more to develop. Eventually it'd become contrived or lazy in the opposite direction if you get my meaning. A recurring threat or narrative thread throughout a series of fights would be nice but that's something they mainly save for raids or key dungeons.

And sadly two of those examples were woefully underutilized, especially Rhitahtyn. The DRK quests did a fine job of showing the how weight that taking lives and the general amount of garbage the WoL has to do wears on them. Those would be better served being integrated more into the MSQ but the writers have decided to set that bit of character building aside as "optional". There are HINTS of that in some MSQ scenes but you have to remember they want to keep it as open and blank slate as they can for the player to project onto. Assuming that the killing is an adrenaline rush is incorrect though I feel, as the WoL doesn't seem to revel in the killing but the victory or the accomplishment of the goal. Again they could have the actual burden of killing in there more but they choose not to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilverObi

I see where you're coming from, but honestly I wouldn't expect every encounter to have a level of depth or narrative importance that one would get from a character that had an entire expansion or more to develop. Eventually it'd become contrived or lazy in the opposite direction if you get my meaning. A recurring threat or narrative thread throughout a series of fights would be nice but that's something they mainly save for raids or key dungeons.

---

Well sure, we don't need narrative importance or depth with every encounter, but that doesn't meant it has to be lazily written. Instead of just having random beasts, the entire dungeon could be written as a comedy! Kugane Castle was almost that with the Yojimbo fight. And Haukke Manor played up the horror movie aethstetic and was actually built up via a quest about finding a bunch of mutilated bodies. Made the dungeon far more memorable to me then the copperbell mines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

Well sure, we don't need narrative importance or depth with every encounter, but that doesn't meant it has to be lazily written. Instead of just having random beasts, the entire dungeon could be written as a comedy! Kugane Castle was almost that with the Yojimbo fight.

---

This is going to come off as a dig at the writers, but honestly I doubt they have the chops to make every single final boss encounter memorable or unique in terms of style while needing to keep pace with the dungeon creation. Random beasts aren't lazy if they fit the narrative (nearly every dungeon that has been described in story as overrun by wildlife) and what makes an encounter seem random can vary on player perception. Kugane Castle for example didn't come off as a comedy or near it to me, we were busting up a political home invasion after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

True, sometimes a monster is just a monster. I'd argue that FFXIV relies on it a bit too much. Like I said, it's really takes no effort to write the story of a dungeon as "random bosses are in your way" and the players can sense when little effort has been put into a dungeon. Sure, you can spice up random monster with death consequences, but I still say that the engagement level remains low, like on the level of Eureka Amenos. However, if you actually develop these bosses in the story, the fight because far more meaningful, even on repeats. The act of taking a life should be a tragedy, not just a cheap adrenaline rush.

---

I agree. Most expansion MSQ dungeons have decent final bosses but almost all Hard mode dungeons with the exception of Tam-Tara (Hard) have trash for bosses. Tam-Tara and Genbu in Hell's Lid are dungeon bosses done right. I don't expect everyone of them to be like those but i would like to see more of them meet us halfway at least.

I was so pleasantly surprised to see the Swallow's Compass boss in the Genbu area afterwards, but really that's because they have set the expectations so low for us at this point. This is like a quarter effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SilverObi

This is going to come off as a dig at the writers, but honestly I doubt they have the chops to make every single final boss encounter memorable or unique in terms of style while needing to keep pace with the dungeon creation. Random beasts aren't lazy if they fit the narrative (nearly every dungeon that has been described in story as overrun by wildlife) and what makes an encounter seem random can vary on player perception. Kugane Castle for example didn't come off as a comedy or near it to me, we were busting up a political home invasion after all.

---

Well I admit the writing has been questionable in Stormblood, I still think they were at least trying for comedy at Kugane Castle, what with the goofy reaction and dutch angle in the cutscene.
https://i.imgur.com/l4ih9Ui.jpg

I also note that you don't actually kill Yojimbo or Kageyama either. It seems to me the writers were at least trying for something a little different by using an actual plot.
https://i.imgur.com/KJjg949.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

To me personally, I HATE Suzaku's voice. Its warbly and super annoying as hell for me. Now, if that was the intention, that was part of how her character is, Well then, alrighty. Its spot on. However, I feel like the feel was supposed to be some regal 'high-class' female kind of feel bemoaning the loss of a loved one, but it just comes off as shrill and grating.

---

ALL I EVER WANTED WAS FOR US TO.... TO....!

But seriously, her voice sounds much better in Japanese. Light light years better. And I rarely say that about JP voice acting (since the cast is mostly western and it's a western setting, Westerners can be more diverse with accents than Japanese in general, e.g. there's no Japanese-with-Russian accent for Russian characters in Japanese games.

Starting to get the feeling that people who say there was no context or reason for Omega or the bosses didn't pay attention to the story and just skipped it all then came here to complain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruinfeild

Starting to get the feeling that people who say there was no context or reason for Omega or the bosses didn't pay attention to the story and just skipped it all then came here to complain.

---

I think to most people it felt the same as every other raid they just didn't tolerate how they justified it this time. Weather that's because they didn't like the tournament arc or weather they were tired of 5 years of a similar style of raid story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruinfeild

Starting to get the feeling that people who say there was no context or reason for Omega or the bosses didn't pay attention to the story and just skipped it all then came here to complain.

---

The issue with Omega is that Deltascape, Sigmascape and Chaos have an 'easy out' for shoehorning in bosses.

Does Phantom Train make any sense here? It doesn't matter, it's a simulation based on a story from another world!

Contrast that to say, Cloud of Darkness, Ultimate Wepaon etc that are recontexualized for FF XIV's setting and story.

Most of the Omega raid bosses feel more shoehorned because they have the excuse of 'legend from another world' and they don't have to put any effort into giving the bosses a new context or story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

While I agree on the Suzaku voice acting - I dont think the voice was well picked

---

The English one? Cause I think the Japanese voice is great for her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sneakaboo

WOW is a good example how it helps, the story isn't very good most of the time (if not down right stupid).
It's usually more of an excuse why you are going to smack an important lore character around.
However the voice acting , the delivery of the lines and the gags make it breathe.

An encounter can still be very memorable because of it, even though it might just been average.

---

Not that WoW hasn't had some bad voice acting too. I still cringe thinking about Sindragosa.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sneakaboo

Basic voice acting for raid bosses can make an encounter/character memorable.
Same as some basic story writing, it just adds something extra.
I'm not sure how it is in Stormblood , since I'm still stuck in Heavensward though up to now I haven't seen much voice acting.

WOW is a good example how it helps, the story isn't very good most of the time (if not down right stupid).
It's usually more of an excuse why you are going to smack an important lore character around.
However the voice acting , the delivery of the lines and the gags make it breathe.

An encounter can still be very memorable because of it, even though it might just been average.



When I started this game and ended up fighting Garuda the first thing I missed was just basic voice acting.
It's a shame since if ARR does one thing exceptional well it is the music, it would make it in my eyes perfect if it came together.

---

For me this is Grynwaht in Doma Castle. Really the entire dungeon as a whole would have been just 'okay' but his voice acting really sells it for me, and makes me actually get invested in his character for the first time since he showed up in 3.55. A shame it was right before his death.

I don't know how it is in other languages but i love his english voice acting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruinfeild

Starting to get the feeling that people who say there was no context or reason for Omega or the bosses didn't pay attention to the story and just skipped it all then came here to complain.

---

Alphascape was a nice change from before because most bosses there at least had a reason to be there. While them before were nothing but stories that are told somehwere in the world. Cid even states with one of them that it could even be one from another dimension thus it might not have any information at all. And thats it. Some had some fanservice thrown into it where I for example was confused that it happened. (For example the woman after the defeat of the train, if you did not play the game in question you probably wont have an idea of why she was there)

Probably, because they are.

All I want is an arena that isn't a square or circle. It takes me right out of the encounter when its just another boss on the exact same platform every time.

Having played almost every mainline FF, and most other FF games, I can safely say "Remember this guy?" the Raid Tier is pretty weak. While I do appreciate the work that went into things like making Kefka spot on, etc. it's still feels very "We're out of ideas so now it's time to rehash old games." I've said it before, this makes it look like the devs are out of ideas, and we're only on the second expansion.