How does FFXIV fare against other modern MMORPGs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

No, you just have hours and hours of barely utilizing your brain because you're down into the sub-10 APM counts that FFXI gameplay has.

Might as well go watch a movie at that point, to be honest.

I played FFXI for years, and I have memories of oftentimes being half asleep in a zombie like state because the gameplay was just that boring, even after Rhapsodies on many jobs.

---

You need far more than 10 APM to be successful in FFXI. Especially after the 99 cap increase and all the ridiculous gear they released, but that was true even before. Some piece of content used to be very intense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

You need far more than 10 APM to be successful in FFXI. Especially after the 99 cap increase and all the ridiculous gear they released, but that was true even before. Some piece of content used to be very intense.

---

Well, it feels like 10APM sometime on some jobs, especially some melee jobs. People complain about 2.5s GCD in XIV, but seriously, it's not too uncommon to go 10+ seconds without anything to do. Need TP to do a weaponskill, most of your abilities have 5+ minute cooldowns, etc.

Also, I'm not including movement in the APM estimates... and 10 APM is 6 seconds avg between ability usage, afterall and I can tell you that waiting longer than 6 seconds between doing things is very common.

I like FF XIV for the story and side stories such as the Hildibrand Adventures. None of the MMO's I've played are close in this regard. I do feel with Stormblood the MSQ content is not up to what it was in ARR/HW and the patches were even lighter on content. One thing I didn't like from first moving here from WoW was the combat system but I got use to it. After primarily playing ESO for about the past 6 months I find the combat system archaic and slow. The same goes for the character movement controls. If I were to compare FF XIV at this point with the fiasco they call housing, Eureka, less content and some of the boneheaded changes they made to jobs I would say FF has lost its way and overall isn't up to what the other games offer. So much so that I gave up my house and canceled my sub giving me a couple of weeks to finish out 4.4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

And yet, the one thing that FFXIV tries to copy FFXI on, is universally hated by everybody, you know, Diadem/Eureka/Pagos?

Apparently FFXI-style content is NOT fun afterall, by most peoples' standards.

Eureka is basically an Abyssea re-hash, and... most people hate it.

---

Yea, because we all know taking one thing out of context means that it's a bad idea. FFXI had mistakes as well, Diadem was one of them, but over all, I think FFXI was the superior MMO. When I heard about FFXIV, I came hoping it was similar content with just improved combat system and the likes. Expected to be camping in the overworld pulling mobs and watching mob trains when it all goes wrong. Expected some sort of involvement with random people rather than a 15-20 minute dungeon in which no one talks, and the focus is just getting the dungeon done as fast as possible.

...what I got was....this game....

.....exciting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Yea, because we all know taking one thing out of context means that it's a bad idea. FFXI had mistakes as well, Diadem was one of them, but over all, I think FFXI was the superior MMO. When I heard about FFXIV, I came hoping it was similar content with just improved combat system and the likes. Expected to be camping in the overworld pulling mobs and watching mob trains when it all goes wrong. Expected some sort of involvement with random people rather than a 15-20 minute dungeon in which no one talks, and the focus is just getting the dungeon done as fast as possible.

...what I got was....this game....

.....exciting

---

At least you still have FFXI, and I have FFXIV which I like a lot better than XI. We can agree to disagree, and continue enjoying the games we enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

At least you still have FFXI, and I have FFXIV which I like a lot better than XI. We can agree to disagree, and continue enjoying the games we enjoy.

---

Minus the part of still having FFXI, cause I don't. Also minus the part of enjoying the games we enjoy, cause I don't. Other than that, yea...FFXIV rocks.

Played WoW, GW2 and FFXIV


WoW : If you didn't play Warcraft III, the story itself is terrible, everything is generic and the OST isn't that great
GW2 : An amazing game, the gameplay is extremely dynamic and the game itself is far harder than WoW/FFXIV. The story is great and the OST is pretty good
XIV has the best artstyle, OST, visuals, story and has overall better quality content than WoW and GW2 (not quantity though)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Minus the part of still having FFXI, cause I don't. Also minus the part of enjoying the games we enjoy, cause I don't. Other than that, yea...FFXIV rocks.

---

The FFXI servers are still up, are they not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

The FFXI servers are still up, are they not?

---

Yes FFXI servers are still up and going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krokov

Yes FFXI servers are still up and going.

---

Fair enough was under the assumption they were all privitized now, meaning you need an invite from some group to play

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Fair enough was under the assumption they were all privitized now, meaning you need an invite from some group to play

---

This honestly isn't meant as criticism, but I'm really curious- you are not only playing XIV but are posting on the forums and have time for frivolous threads like this but can't spare a few seconds for even a quick google search to see if you can play XI, which you claim to like so much more than XIV? I don't understand how that happens. What's the reasoning behind that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rymm

This honestly isn't meant as criticism, but I'm really curious- you are not only playing XIV but are posting on the forums and have time for frivolous threads like this but can't spare a few seconds for even a quick google search to see if you can play XI, which you claim to like so much more than XIV? I don't understand how that happens. What's the reasoning behind that?

---

When after 14 years of a games existence, and you recently have nostalgia for FFXI again, but a friend/co-worker/lover/what-have-you says 'Oh yea, I remember that game too, but I think the servers are down..only privitized by people who downloaded the server specs or whatever.' You don't immediately think 'Ho there, my knowledgeable friend! You have long since aided me with your useful insight, but I must interject here! Surely a game that has been in existence for 14 years is still up and running, in the prime of its life! Nay sir, I shall google this immediately!'

Is it just as unreasonable to assume when someone tells you and old game is either unaccessable anymore, or possibly hard to access, you just...believe them, based on the notion that the game is old? I don't think so...

No but uh...when you're making solid claims like "XI is unplayable anymore," people expect that claim to be researched. I admit, when you sounded so sure XI was down I questioned it myself, but no, XI is not only still going strong but they're making a mobile variant of the game as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

No but uh...when you're making solid claims like "XI is unplayable anymore," people expect that claim to be researched. I admit, when you sounded so sure XI was down I questioned it myself, but no, XI is not only still going strong but they're making a mobile variant of the game as well.

---

I made solid claims to FFXI being down?

Himm..I better check this grievous mistake...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

This. A thousand times this. I used to be a FF fan, but after 11 (And before people bitch about how I'm trying to compare 11 to 14, I'm not. I mean after 11 in terms of FF games. Really, for me, FF died after 9, was ressurected at 11, then died again at 12), things went pear shaped, badly. This game makes me sad. Same thing different day, nothing you do matters, because in a month or two's time, your gear will be outdated, and the grind begins again. It takes 2 and a half months just to get full tomestone gear because of the stupid low cap of 450 of <insert relavent tomestone here>, unless you have millions of gil to spend on crafted gear to get in to savages the day it comes out. Overworld is a joke, just a means to get from point A to Point B, and after you finish all main story quests and any side dungeons to unlock, you never go in to them again...because retainers can get you stuff your gathering classes normally would, albiet it slower, but still, pay for enough retainers, and you have enough to get by.

I play this game literally because there is no other game to play. So I wouldn't say FFXIV is the best, I would say it's the lesser of all the available evils.

---

A statement that I play this game because there is nothing better to play...but no....no claim that FFXI is unplayable. Hmmm...maybe dig deeper?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Yea, because we all know taking one thing out of context means that it's a bad idea. FFXI had mistakes as well, Diadem was one of them, but over all, I think FFXI was the superior MMO. When I heard about FFXIV, I came hoping it was similar content with just improved combat system and the likes. Expected to be camping in the overworld pulling mobs and watching mob trains when it all goes wrong. Expected some sort of involvement with random people rather than a 15-20 minute dungeon in which no one talks, and the focus is just getting the dungeon done as fast as possible.

...what I got was....this game....

.....exciting

---

A mention how FFXI had their own fair share of mistakes, but just because it sucked, doesn't mean the game sucked. But no...still no mention of how FFXI is unplayable. But it must be here..I'm quoted on it after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Minus the part of still having FFXI, cause I don't. Also minus the part of enjoying the games we enjoy, cause I don't. Other than that, yea...FFXIV rocks.

---

A quote about how I don't have access to FFXI anymore. While it could be assumed this means 'ffxi is unplayable,' it merely means that I was not aware the servers still exist, and thus was available to me. Still...no mention of FFXI being unplayable...unless you mistook my wording, at least. I could have been an avid FFXI console player, which is dead. Still, I think they can recover character from console to PC, but in light of all this, I don't have my research down enough to make a solid claim to this. And I do need a solid claim, can't be making erroneous assumptions around here, after all. That's bad form.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Fair enough was under the assumption they were all privitized now, meaning you need an invite from some group to play

---

My owning up to my ignorance, and accepting this correction. Yet still no mention of FFXI being unplayable. Maybe I deleted the post?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

Umm, while I think that might be interesting, I don't think FFXIV's current story system is bad. In fact, the current story system is what made many players emotionally engaged, for the story feels more personal. You feel more involved with the characters after all the things you've lived together; if you removed those things and would merely stay on the surface of what's happening, it wouldn't be the same.

---

Well...that's the problem, story is subjective so you might like it, love even, but I honestly fail to see what makes it good. It's not uncommon for me as I dislike some of the most famous games of all time (I found Nier incredibly boring and pretentious, Life is Strange was a chore, Undertale was hilariously bad and so on). Still, wow has also characters that you have some kind of involvement....I mean look at Jaina: in Pandaria she had her place demolished by Garrosh which made her go rampage and started KILLING blood elves in Dalaran because of their alignment to the horde, and she is now regretting her choice of the past, all culminating with her returning in Kul'Tiras and facing her own people ((I forgot the details so bear with me, it's been a while)).
And yet the expansions have their own story...sure you would have to read and watch everything done before to fully understand, but seeing Jaina doing all that made me actually want to go back and revisit everything, including books and videos.
I sure won't bother returning here and watch hundreds of voiceless scenes with corny lines such as "mayhap" every 2 seconds.

But again, it's subjective: you might like a story that I hate, or hate a story that I like, and that's completely and perfectly fine in my book.
What's not fine when people start calling you names for disliking stuff that you don't like, which happened quite often during the years I played in this game and the main reason of drama in the past.
And in the 12-13 years I played wow, this never happened...or heck even other games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

A quote about how I don't have access to FFXI anymore. While it could be assumed this means 'ffxi is unplayable,' it merely means that I was not aware the servers still exist, and thus was available to me. Still...no mention of FFXI being unplayable...unless you mistook my wording, at least. I could have been an avid FFXI console player, which is dead. Still, I think they can recover character from console to PC, but in light of all this, I don't have my research down enough to make a solid claim to this. And I do need a solid claim, can't be making erroneous assumptions around here, after all. That's bad form.

---

Yes, it could be assumed that means "FFXI is unplayable." Because the alternatives would have me assume far, far less of you.

FFXI console and FFXI PC were crossplay as well, were they not? https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...sy-xi/53959008 suggests that, much like FFXIV, all accounts accessed the same servers, so I can assume the characters are easily accessed as well, just like how easy it was for me to connect my PC to my PS4 account for XIV and transition like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Yes, it could be assumed that means "FFXI is unplayable." Because the alternatives would have me assume far, far less of you.

FFXI console and FFXI PC were crossplay as well, were they not? https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards...sy-xi/53959008 suggests that, much like FFXIV, all accounts accessed the same servers, so I can assume the characters are easily accessed as well, just like how easy it was for me to connect my PC to my PS4 account for XIV and transition like that.

---

You are correct again Final Fantasy 11 was indeed cross supported. PC version was released first then PS2 with the Xbox 360 later on. That way until March of 2015 when they ended console support.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

Well, it feels like 10APM sometime on some jobs, especially some melee jobs. People complain about 2.5s GCD in XIV, but seriously, it's not too uncommon to go 10+ seconds without anything to do. Need TP to do a weaponskill, most of your abilities have 5+ minute cooldowns, etc.

Also, I'm not including movement in the APM estimates... and 10 APM is 6 seconds avg between ability usage, afterall and I can tell you that waiting longer than 6 seconds between doing things is very common.

---

Currently on melee jobs on FFXI you WS every few seconds if you know what you're doing (ie you have the relevant gear, with all the haste and multi-hit), and you need to line up your buff (without any GCD) and coordinate with your teammates for skillchains. Sure FFXI is a game where you have to think about when to go ham but when you do you have to quickly make use of your abilities, as there aren't any GCD. If you spend 10 secs+ without doing something, you don't really know what you're doing.

And your point is moot for healers, support, tank and mage jobs, on which you are always casting something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aylis

Different strokes for different folks and whats "best" is subjective to the person and there is no real textbook "best" mmo.

I can't deny WoW and FFXIV are the biggest mmo's. I sorta wanna put in SWTOR in this as well. All three are really long running franchises and all three have its own legion of fans because of the name and because of the companies behind it. The rest fall into the category "you either like it or you don't"

FFXIV does excel at both presentation and being the perfect social type game if a player seeks more bite then what they can get out of Second Life. This is where FFXIV falls flat for me and if I only had the choice between WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV. I would pick WoW. FFXIV maybe more stunning to look at then WoW, but much like I could walk down a sidewalk and spot a pile of dog poop, I can put all the spray paint and dump as much glitter as I want on it and in the end all I'll have is a pretty pile of poop. FFXIV is just too constrictive for me. Here I know no matter how good I am, no matter how good my gear is. I'm very much limited to what I can do on my own. I like being social with friends but at the same time I also like pushing myself solo to see what I can do alone. That's fun for me. WoW maybe less visually amazing, but its presentation is good enough for me since when I remember from when I played. The world was more open and I had the options to see how far I could push myself alone when I wanted to be alone. I'll trade any visuals in exchange for options.

I still enjoy FFXIV for what it is with friends, but when no friends are around I tend to favor mmo's with more bite and flexibility.

---

Indeed as someone who pretty much is playing XIV by themselves it can definitely be difficult. I have really friends that do play but real life circumstances responsibilities prevent them from doing so regularly they can only get on at the moment sporadically you might say. So for the most part it's me that's playing the game taking care of the FC and anything else and it can be tough when you have no one to hang out with. Though even with World of Warcraft while you can do a lot of things solo when you have no one to hang out with it's also in my opinion tough as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

-snip-

---

IF you can get that kind of ridiculous gear.

When I last played, like last year I think it was.... yeah last year... the gear that one could get solo did not let you "WS every few seconds" whatsoever. Basic entry-level 119 gear that took forever to get while solo and getting a group in modern days? lol. Yeah right.

They did add the "handout 119" stuff (or rather updated 117) right before I left, but even that gear was rather weak, barely 119 from what I read. Looked like it was a bit under-budgeted just to push your Trusts up to full power.

To get anything good, you had to do Ambuscade (nobody wanted you because you couldn't do the hard mode with that kind of gear, nor could you solo the easier modes very well because most Ambuscades had mobs that were VERY solo un-friendly with AoEs that the AI trusts could not handle whatsoever) or get Su3 gear.

To get Su3 gear, you had to do months and months and months of JP grinding on a specific job (it was not character wide, mind you) and then pay tens of millions of gil per piece, if any pieces were actually up on the market (family member took 3 weeks+ to finally get the set for her THF) and even then you're still out on jewelry. Have fun grinding old content to get starter gear before you can even THINK about starting new content, IF you could find a group of people who don't mind carrying a newbie to get caught up.

So they finally made combat OK, but only if you have top of the line gear which you're never going to get without years of grinding and preparing.

That's somehow better?

Coming here you are going to get a good bias.
It comes down to what you are looking for.
It up on par with all sub based MMOs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

IF you can get that kind of ridiculous gear.

When I last played, like last year I think it was.... yeah last year... the gear that one could get solo did not let you "WS every few seconds" whatsoever. Basic entry-level 119 gear that took forever to get while solo and getting a group in modern days? lol. Yeah right.

They did add the "handout 119" stuff (or rather updated 117) right before I left, but even that gear was rather weak, barely 119 from what I read. Looked like it was a bit under-budgeted just to push your Trusts up to full power.

To get anything good, you had to do Ambuscade (nobody wanted you because you couldn't do the hard mode with that kind of gear, nor could you solo the easier modes very well because most Ambuscades had mobs that were VERY solo un-friendly with AoEs that the AI trusts could not handle whatsoever) or get Su3 gear.

To get Su3 gear, you had to do months and months and months of JP grinding on a specific job (it was not character wide, mind you) and then pay tens of millions of gil per piece, if any pieces were actually up on the market (family member took 3 weeks+ to finally get the set for her THF) and even then you're still out on jewelry. Have fun grinding old content to get starter gear before you can even THINK about starting new content, IF you could find a group of people who don't mind carrying a newbie to get caught up.

So they finally made combat OK, but only if you have top of the line gear which you're never going to get without years of grinding and preparing.

That's somehow better?

---

I m mostly talking about ambuscade gear and UNM weapons (montante +1) here, nothing extravagant. And you can definitely do the hard mode in low difficulty setting with lower end gear, they can be low maned (I know it, its what I did last summer during the login campaign, it doesn't take long to get and I was basically naked before I started).

Also, your statement wasn't even true in 2006, the game was slower paced but with the proper optimisation there were little to no downtime. Obviously if you were playing MNK or more generally a melee in a fail party without any support there was a lot of downtime, but that came from non ideal party setups. Avesta's solo video are still online on youtube, please watch them and tell me you can do that with 10 APM...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gothicshark

ESO (Elder Scrolls Online) - Tried too hard, added in too much WOW not enough Elder Scrolls.

---

I hate to quote myself, however I need to change my statement here.

I was in ESO Beta, and was there on launch. It was the worst of both worlds, at the time. It had the things I hate in MMOs from WOW and a lack of direction that Skyrim had. After my initial post, I renewed my subscription, and have played it every day this week.

Oh boy, it's good now. Really good. They fixed a lot of the issues I had, and they changed the start of the game to help give focus on a story. It's comparable now to FFXIV and WOW, it sort of sits in between the two and is worth being in the top 4 MMOs. You'all can fight for order and the 4th.

FF14 would rank higher on the list if the PvP on the game was better. They need to release more game modes which are more fun. Maybe do smaller maps with less people, with each mode being unique (Wow PvP trumps FF14s every day of the week) Also, add PvP gear that actually does something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

FF14 would rank higher on the list if the PvP on the game was better. They need to release more game modes which are more fun. Maybe do smaller maps with less people, with each mode being unique (Wow PvP trumps FF14s every day of the week) Also, add PvP gear that actually does something.

---

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

---

PvP is almost like a competitive thing, and nothing is good in that when it comes to relationship. I have played a lot of competitive games and to be honest, I'm very tired when people trash talk and hate on each other. But everyone has their own preference in their MMORPG style. Some like the cartoon-ish and the intense environment of PvP in WoW, while some others prefer to spend their time in PvE, stories, contents and hanging around with a chill community in a well polished game like Final Fantasy XIV, which is a reason why I quit GW2. There are definitely features that I still like in that game but the visual of the game is one of the reason I quit it (I do agree that it looks good but I just have a different taste).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuukyo

PvP is almost like a competitive thing, and nothing is good in that when it comes to relationship. I have played a lot of competitive games and to be honest, I'm very tired when people trash talk and hate on each other. But everyone has their own preference in their MMORPG style. Some like the cartoon-ish and the intense environment of PvP in WoW, while some others prefer to spend their time in PvE, stories, contents and hanging around with a chill community in a well polished game like Final Fantasy XIV, which is a reason why I quit GW2. There are definitely features that I still like in that game but the visual of the game is one of the reason I quit it (I do agree that it looks good but I just have a different taste).

---

*nods*

I get that they (the person I quoted) likes PvP and that's fine... but if they like/want PvP, they should try WoW. I bet they'd love it over there if that's what they are seeking.

Thankfully FFXIV is a game that works very well when playing two MMOs, you can put in 5-10 hours a week and still get plenty done in it which leaves you more than enough time to get another MMO to fill in the gap of what FFXIV doesn't give enough of, if that's what one wants.

I don't really see the need to try to turn FFXIV into WoW, no more than I'd go over to WoW asking for more story cutscenes and forced MSQs. WoW is not FFXIV any more than FFXIV is WoW. It's good that they both have their unique design directions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

*nods*

I get that they (the person I quoted) likes PvP and that's fine... but if they like/want PvP, they should try WoW. I bet they'd love it over there if that's what they are seeking.

Thankfully FFXIV is a game that works very well when playing two MMOs, you can put in 5-10 hours a week and still get plenty done in it which leaves you more than enough time to get another MMO to fill in the gap of what FFXIV doesn't give enough of, if that's what one wants.

I don't really see the need to try to turn FFXIV into WoW, no more than I'd go over to WoW asking for more story cutscenes and forced MSQs. WoW is not FFXIV any more than FFXIV is WoW. It's good that they both have their unique design directions.

---

I came to MMORPGs after spending my 5 years playing competitive games like DotA, League of Legends, Counter Strike: Global Offensive and I definitely love these games, but not the community because people hate each other so much they have to trash talk each other and sometimes people even do things that is very offensive to others without regards. First few days I learned to play Counter Strike and I was not good because I was learning the game, and the team just straight up kick me and told me before kicking to stop playing like shit and go kys in voice chats.

What great communities they are when competitive element exists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

---

From even just the second line, this feels waaaaay off base. I have to wonder if you even play the game, or merely watch the most absurd clips of Blizzcon audiences. (Oh, and now with the third line I'm certain of it.)

WoW isn't built around PvP. It's built with it in mind and accounted for, rather than as a shallow afterthought as in XIV (though has become less clear or trusted with time), but the game, whether you ask a raider or a PvPer, is PvE-centric. Most players are not single-faction, and haven't been since the character creation restrictions were lifted; they have at least a couple characters on each side.

PvP has faded in popularity and usage over time. All but the initial game and the latest (8th) installment have largely been about pushing faction differences aside to face a common enemy. Mists of Panderia toyed with the idea of open warfare briefly, only to turn it almost into a satirical twist, whereby that violence begets literally spirits of violence worse than either faction and in the end, both factions unite against the horde leader, Garrosh. Battle for Azeroth has had to honestly kind of had to force, tooth-and-nail-down-throats, the idea of open warfare back into the game. The plots have been contorted, logic stretched thin or openly snapped, and the absurd lampshaded at best just to force that trend back into the game despite all content and context to the contrary and faith in the company and ratings for the game have plummeted as a result. That Blizzcon incident was development's wet dream. And it only took them three segments of verbal harassment and blatant alternative pandering to trigger it. Berate enough people at a bar, whatever their personality, and eventually yes, they may eventually act like rabid soccer fans on the night of a FIFA world cup final.

Should I say that basketball is inherently toxic because of what Lakers fans do after each loss (or win, for that matter)? Is keeping pets toxic because you can aggravate a dog to bite? This is not an issue of PvP. What you're thinking of is an issue of force-marketing a concept to which most sales candidates were already relatively disillusioned.

Raids sure don't stack up well compared to other mmos. least from them you get loot each time and not get nothing for time there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

---

How is WoW toxic if you don't mind expounding? Clear examples/insight please.

As an avid MMO player and long time WoW player, it's not very toxic at all, unless the only thing you do is LFR, but that's a hilariously isolated content form to paint an entire playerbase with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

The lack of PvP is a huge part of what makes FFXIV great.

PvP breeds all kinds of terrible behavior, just look at WoW's general community. WoW is a game built around PvP, and tries to get its playerbase to split into two factions, and tries its hardest to get them to hate each other, and of course, it works really well. WoW is very toxic and there is actual player hate towards players of opposite faction. I mean, there was that Blizzcon where a person wearing Alliance colors was physically assaulted by a person (or was it multiple people, I forget) wearing Horde colors.

When you have people physically assaulting each other IRL because of something stupid like an imaginary faction in-game, you've crossed the line.

I'd rather not have more PvP here in FFXIV. The fact it's way off to the side and few people care about it is a good thing.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

*nods*

I get that they (the person I quoted) likes PvP and that's fine... but if they like/want PvP, they should try WoW. I bet they'd love it over there if that's what they are seeking.

---

I have played WoW for a few years, both PvP and PvE, and I have played FFXIV PvP and PvE. The PvP IS fun in WoW, but the PvE in FF14 is more fun than in WoW (for me at least).
I am a long-time fan of Final Fantasy, and I like almost everything FFXIV has to offer.
I like the way the world looks, I like the outfits in FFXIV, I love just about everything in the gold saucer, I love my house, and I love my fully trained companion chocobo. I love all the references from old FF games.
But sometimes, I just want to have me some good ol' PvP, and I don't want to sub to another game just to pvp in it.
FF14 PvP just doesn't scratch that itch well enough atm. It's just not good enough to scratch that itch.

I can say without a doubt, from experience that PvP in FF14 is actually a little more toxic than it is in WoW.
Here's why I think that is the case:

1. Lack of players makes wait times longer than other content. This means that when people do finally get a pop, and then they start losing, people get more frustrated. Whereas in WoW, if you lose in a battleground, no big deal, you'll get another pop quickly and can try again. FF14? Better get ready to wait for ages for another FLs, in which you'll probably lose again!

2.The 3 teams versing each other, and only one wins. People get more toxic when they are losing. With 1 team vs another team, like in WoW, you get 50% of people losing, whereas with 3 teams versing each other in FF14, you get 66% of the people losing. More players losing means more toxicity. Not only that, but one team can sabotage another team, so they both lose. That's a great way to make a match even more toxic.

3. PvP modes aren't diverse and fun enough. When people are having fun, there's less toxicity. I have seen Eureka pagos get pretty toxic, and that's because the content just isn't that fun and very repetative. Something that FF14 PvP is right now.

If PvP was better, more players would play it. Queue times would fall, people would have more fun, toxicity would decrease.
And besides, if you don't like PvP, just don't play it.
Better PvP in FF14 probably won't impact you very much.
And PvP can actually help with PvE, as PvP has improved my PvE ability. The challenge of it forced me to use keybinds, rather than clicking all my abilities with my mouse like I used to. Not only that, but it's a great way to train your reaction times.

I have seen PvE toxicity bleed into PvP when I was on Odin back in ARR though! The PvP linkshell I was in were doing friendly wolves den matches, and once a dude who did a lot of PvE, and would sell savage runs came along. He wanted to flex his muscles in PvP too. He quickly found out that PvP was a very different beast, and kept losing. He actually tried to pay them off with millions to let him win, and their honor as PvPers made them refuse his offers. He wasn't too happy about that.

Anyway, I met my husband because of FF14 PvP (back in heavensward when PvP was better), so for me, PvP has been an overwhelmingly positive experience :)

I wouldn't consider FF XIV perfect by any means, but after taking a long break and having some time to reflect and experience other things...it's certainly good enough. It's an MMORPG for the modern gamer, plain and simple. I can compare certain aspects to other MMOs, and while other MMOs do some things better, so does FF XIV. There are things I wish they would borrow from other MMOs like WoW (pet battles, transmog system, etc) and I wish they would take more risks, but tbh it's a bit more of a unique experience that even I can't fully explain and/or understand. If people want to play this game in a hardcore manner though they might feel like there's much less to do on a daily/weekly basis. But I've come to accept that the game isn't meant to be played day in and day out. It's much more enjoyable when you don't try to force it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

How is WoW toxic if you don't mind expounding? Clear examples/insight please.

As an avid MMO player and long time WoW player, it's not very toxic at all, unless the only thing you do is LFR, but that's a hilariously isolated content form to paint an entire playerbase with.

---

Here's an example:

Just the other day, family member went to Stormwind City to do the daily Fishing/Cooking quests.

Some guy was /yelling Anti-Semitic remarks over and over and over again.

Or how about all the /spit emotes from opposite-faction players back in the day when accidental flagging was a thing, they would run around us while flagged and we'd go find a safe area to wait for the pest to go away, and they'd start spamming /spit on us because we wouldn't fight them (because yanno we're on a PvE server for a reason).

How about the plethora of times that I've seen wipes happen in LFR ToT and SoO back in MoP when I did those, there'd be a wipe and people would finger-point and argue with each other about who was to blame and then people'd start spamming DPS parses in the chat until people started leaving the raid.

yadda yadda.

EDIT: on the wiping subject.... I've seen lots and lots of wipes in XIV in 8 player content too..... rarely does anybody point fingers. Heck a lot of times nobody says anything, and sometimes people will even politely give pointers... "nobody should stand underneath meteors except for tank... lb3 the tear" etc etc. The only times I've seen toxicity is after 3 wipes then people start sounding a little annoyed.

But in WoW.... back in MoP when I used to LFR back when the rewards were worth doing LFR for, the toxicity in LFR was ridiculous. One Wipe was all it took to get people to lose their crap.

Never played WoW... not once, not ever, never will.

Fortunately for me, when it was released, I was too engrossed in FFXI to bother... and when I heard about the toxicity, the issues, the graphics and their community, I was convinced enough to confirm that I really would never care about WoW.

That said, I do keep a glance on a few MMO games out of sheer curiosity of seeing what their graphics look like. These include God Slayer Online, Black Desert Online, Bless (which my friends in Seoul were able to give me a first hand account about its flop at launch) and Revelation Online.

FFXIV still trounces them all to be honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

And yet, the one thing that FFXIV tries to copy FFXI on, is universally hated by everybody, you know, Diadem/Eureka/Pagos?

Apparently FFXI-style content is NOT fun afterall, by most peoples' standards.

Eureka is basically an Abyssea re-hash, and... most people hate it.

---

That's because FFXIV's combat is simply not designed with that kind of content in mind. You have to constantly spam skills, which not only gets very tiring really fast, but it also prevents any kind of socialization while grinding.

Since in FFXI you mostly auto-attacked and used abilities once in a while. It gave the opportunity to talk to your party members and make it a very social experience. In FFXIV, trying to talk to your party members while chaining monsters in Eureka risks the chain from being broken, affecting the whole group in the process.

Not to mention that SE keeps trying to include FATEs to everything new they add. From the old relics, to the Diadem and Eureka. It seems like a very inexpensive way to add "content", but at the end of the day, it's just dozens of people hitting an XP/light/atma pinata with not much depth to it. Personally I'd prefer if they got rid of FATEs altogether, but that's just me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raskbuck

Not to mention that SE keeps trying to include FATEs to everything new they add. From the old relics, to the Diadem and Eureka. It seems like a very inexpensive way to add "content", but at the end of the day, it's just dozens of people hitting an XP/light/atma pinata with not much depth to it. Personally I'd prefer if they got rid of FATEs altogether, but that's just me.

---

No difference between "Kill X of Y to get Z to spawn" and "Kill X of Y to get Z FATE to spawn" other than it's marked on the map when it does spawn.

And again as I've said earlier in the thread, if you have time to type away to socialize in a game, then the game is just boringly slow.

And besides, this is 2018. There's a little thing called Discord. Wanna socialize? Make a Eureka Discord channel. Let everybody who wants to chat it up over voice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

No difference between "Kill X of Y to get Z to spawn" and "Kill X of Y to get Z FATE to spawn" other than it's marked on the map when it does spawn.

---

I agree, which is why I think they should try to make the content a little more engaging than that. They create these beautiful areas and just fill them with FATEs because that's literally the only content they know how to do, whether it is in the overworld, the Diadem, Eureka, etc. After doing them for so long, I'm personally getting a bit tired of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maeka

And again as I've said earlier in the thread, if you have time to type away to socialize in a game, then the game is just boringly slow.

---

And well, that's just your opinion. I'm just pointing out one of the reasons why Eureka's content misses the mark with XIV's gameplay. It's like mixing apples and oranges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gothicshark

I hate to quote myself, however I need to change my statement here.

I was in ESO Beta, and was there on launch. It was the worst of both worlds, at the time. It had the things I hate in MMOs from WOW and a lack of direction that Skyrim had. After my initial post, I renewed my subscription, and have played it every day this week.

Oh boy, it's good now. Really good. They fixed a lot of the issues I had, and they changed the start of the game to help give focus on a story. It's comparable now to FFXIV and WOW, it sort of sits in between the two and is worth being in the top 4 MMOs. You'all can fight for order and the 4th.

---

Interestingly enough, I did the ESO beta too and hated it; never even bothered to get the actual game. My husband recently picked it up however and ever since then has been hounding me to join him. I finally caved tonight when he told me Steam had it, both expansions, and 4 major DLCs all bundled together for 50% off. Since it was a good deal and there's no sub for it I figured I could give it a try again. We'll see if it sticks this time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rymm

Interestingly enough, I did the ESO beta too and hated it; never even bothered to get the actual game. My husband recently picked it up however and ever since then has been hounding me to join him. I finally caved tonight when he told me Steam had it, both expansions, and 4 major DLCs all bundled together for 50% off. Since it was a good deal and there's no sub for it I figured I could give it a try again. We'll see if it sticks this time.

---

ESO is a beautifully crafted world with decent voice acting, so you might enjoy it. The thing that I disliked the most about it is how you had to "animation cancel" to be effective in combat (the way I understand it, it's basically spam-clicking to attack while weaving skills in between them), so for me it got pretty senseless very fast. If that's not a problem for you, though, I hope you enjoy it!