The toxic Pagos bottleneck and how to solve it

I dont think the grindiness should be reduced in anyway, at least not right now, id understand later on sometime before we get the next eureka area. As for light they can easily make most lv40s give a fair amount of light. Griffins, dragons, and chimeras, should all drop about the same amount of light with similar mutate/adapt chances, that would leave more than enough spots for farming groups, other than that id say make some kind of trade in like 1 louhi and 200 pagos crystal for 1 frosted, enough to help those that just want to nm train but still keep the grind.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Legit no need to nerf light when this is the easiest pre nerf light farm ,
You nerf light people like me who make loads of relics get done faster
And are finished with pagos then less people to help new players and content struggles more.

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a) I don't see any problem in making it easier for people to get multiple relics. We are able to play all jobs on one character so I can't see why that would be so terrible. The SB relic isn't some amazing weapon that is going to be super-powerful and prestigious. It isn't going to be BIS for any length of time (if at all), it's basically glam.
and,
b) let's be honest, those of us who are farming light are not going to be helping new players, we will be in the farming spots chaining. This isn't like Anemos where Killing NMs was still worth doing. It was easy to get a lift on a two-seater mount in Anemos because nearly everyone was going to the NMs. Similarly it was easy to get a raise. Pagos does not support that type of play. In fact, by being in the instance but not participating in the fates, we are harming new players by making the NMs harder to beat.

I can understand anyone who has put themselves through the grind feeling a little resentful at the prospect of nerfs, but that was a personal choice. The problem is, Pagos isn't much fun for the majority. Levelling to 30 is painful, getting round the map without teleports or a mount is painful and now farming light as a max-level player is forcing us into competing for mobs. If I wanted a Korean grinder, I'd play one. If I wanted to play a game where every other player was an 'enemy' I had to compete with for resources then there are plenty of them out there. None of that fits well into FFXIV and it is creating a hostile atmosphere.

Pagos is a mess. Keeping it that way because changes might upset a few people who suffered through it as intended, makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Kyu-Momo

It legit scares me that there are people actually defending pagos' crap gameplay. Just goes to show, rabid Fanboys will love anything that square spits out, no wonder how awful it is. o.0

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The only thing scares me are people putting into groups if they give a different opinion. Some of these people are not defending, but they are done with this hell and don't wanna see nerfs after all there hard work is done.

I am not really at the point of light farming at lv35 yet. So I have not a clear view. But maybe it's a idea for the challenge log to add 1 lightbar for every last objective when reaching lv 35. For Anamos when reaching lv20 extra crystals. So in a sense weekly light or crystals. It will not really kill the grind, but now you have a options which you can choose.

- Going for the grind and log lights for faster light.
- Going slow and doing weekly get light casual.
- Going for more weapons in long term.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

then go do it as intended, you can learn to git gud at grinding like you ask others to git gud at the game. Or don't at all.

They designed a certain way, it sucks, but they apparently want to make content for people who like grinding. I don't know why, but at this point, expecting them to radically change any content nay time soon is pointless. So either do it as intended or dont. Part of the old school experience was learning to deal with other people and camping issues, because no matter how big a zone, there always are just a few decent camp spots. Players need to worj it out on their own, devs can't fix people griping or they would have fixed me a long time ago.

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"Git gud in grinding" How can someone get good at grinding? Oh wait if he plays a ton of grinders maybe? Been there done that, don't do that anymore for a reason. Its boring like hell and nothing to get good its just a matter of how to stay awake.

And you don't have to express your hatred torwards people, who want that others are able to press more than 3 buttons, in every thread.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

But maybe it's a idea for the challenge log to add 1 lightbar for every last objective when reaching lv 35.

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It's too late. By the time they can do that, we'll already be in the next patch. By then, there's little point to pagos. At this point, its just accept it or not do it. I don't think they can change it fast enough to get people back in there; the changes to FATES didn't help at all, there's very few 20s in Pagos zones.

The problem I can see is that patch 4.4 will make our Pagos upgrades redundant apart from glamour purposes.

If there is an ideal method for farming light that we haven't found out yet, then SE should pass on the information asap otherwise Pagos will become dead content once people have grinded up to level 35 and possibly made their first i370 Pagos relic.

The problem is is that these "Exploratory Missions" (EMs), which is all Euerkos is an evolution of, go against some of the core things this game is. From the beginning they have been pushing these grinding thing. When players enter an instance (except pvp for obvious reasons) they normally enter with the understanding they are going to work together with all the other players to accomplish a goal, you know like what multiplayer PvE is supposed to be. EMs on the other hand were designed to have all the player not work together but be in competition for limited resources, but with out the tools in PvP to do anything to other players. We've been getting by with players finding solutions SEs mistakes by finding ways to make the content inclusive for all the players. This has been the essence of Dino Island, the trains. All the players sacrifice their own exp in the build up to work together to spawn and benefit together from the NMs.

Since they have released these they keep taking steps to stop players from working together and pushing the game to be more single player (unsure why they are taking that direction in an MMO but whatever).

So when Pagos, the trains were gone for a bit an the issue became the forefront. The instance is a limited space, for each level there is really only 1 set of mobs for each level and each element. So if multiple groups are out looking for that level and that element, it becomes a problem and a big one. The nature of chaining means these mobs must be monopolized by one or two groups max because there are simply not enough to go around. Also the instance doesn't have any tools to help any group lay claim, the only option open to make use of things that are against the ToA. A group needing mobs already being occupied is to grief those players untl they leave. Trying to get them killed with mobs, 'helping' them with the mobs they are pulling to try to destroy their chain or experience.

People also mentioned that thing developers said about us light farming incorrectly, when we actually discover what they are talking about it's only going to get worse. They are most likely talking about various conditions (things like weather) might make some mobs give us more. If this is true and we discover it will serve to limit the already limited resources further. The level 35 groups will be looking for this most likely one set of mobs that will be optimal at any given time. As this goes on the level 35 will become more and more plentiful and optimal light grinding will be a single set of mobs. It will get ugly.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It's too late. By the time they can do that, we'll already be in the next patch. By then, there's little point to pagos. At this point, its just accept it or not do it. I don't think they can change it fast enough to get people back in there; the changes to FATES didn't help at all, there's very few 20s in Pagos zones.

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You are really narrow minded huh. My idea will also be usable for the third relic step. Because the system will be already there and all people will get the benefits of it. They can adjust the rewards on it too make it easier for glamour purpose in the future. Even if Pagos is atleast for *you* too late, others can still enjoy.

There are still alot of 20's in pagos. Hell even in Anamos there are plenty people still fighting monsters.

As someone who played the after the FATE change. It did help and leveling is much faster. Only the light part is suffering because of it. So you are pushed into the mon grind regardless.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

The problem is is that these "Exploratory Missions" (EMs), which is all Euerkos is an evolution of, go against some of the core things this game is. From the beginning they have been pushing these grinding thing. When players enter an instance (except pvp for obvious reasons) they normally enter with the understanding they are going to work together with all the other players to accomplish a goal, you know like what multiplayer PvE is supposed to be. EMs on the other hand were designed to have all the player not work together but be in competition for limited resources, but with out the tools in PvP to do anything to other players. We've been getting by with players finding solutions SEs mistakes by finding ways to make the content inclusive for all the players. This has been the essence of Dino Island, the trains. All the players sacrifice their own exp in the build up to work together to spawn and benefit together from the NMs.

Since they have released these they keep taking steps to stop players from working together and pushing the game to be more single player (unsure why they are taking that direction in an MMO but whatever).

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Because they have a vision for the game, players regardless.

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Originally Posted by ShadowHunterrX

My idea will also be usable for the third relic step.

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Mmm, i thought you meant fixing it sooner. But even then, if i were you i'd worry a little more about that third relic step. They can make pagos easier, but no point if logos is worse than pagos. Probably be best just to let pagos people just get a free first relic or two in logos, while subtly dropping any pagos requirement to progress.

Will be going into 4.4 with an outdated relic for my main stuck at 365, a single tome weapon for maybe one of my tank alt classes at 370. The rest will be stuck at 355. My health and well-being comes first before any Korean style grind.

And I truly cannot be bothered for a weapon that will be out-dated so quickly. It used to be in HW and ARR the relic was a viable alternative for progression. Now it's not even worth the glamour. There's not even any lore or meaningful story behind it. It's just a reward for putting your health second with no real meaning to it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Mmm, i thought you meant fixing it sooner. But even then, if i were you i'd worry a little more about that third relic step. They can make pagos easier, but no point if logos is worse than pagos.

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It's not fixing. It's about more possible ways of playing to get the same end result. So everybody can it enjoy in some way. Even when it's old content.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Probably be best just to let pagos people just get a free first relic or two in logos, while subtly dropping any pagos requirement to progress

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What a stupid idea.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

they keep taking steps to stop players from working together and pushing the game to be more single player (unsure why they are taking that direction in an MMO but whatever).

... As this goes on the level 35 will become more and more plentiful and optimal light grinding will be a single set of mobs. It will get ugly.

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I suspect they have not considered the effect their design has on player behaviour, and they should have considered it. FFXIV does not have a generally nice community by accident. Helping others usually benefits you in this game or at worst, it is neutral. Turning this round so that helping others hurts your progress is obviously going to have an effect.

Since testing is done in-house, they probably got a very distorted idea of how Anemos and Pagos would play. I imagine if you were doing Pagos with a single group, with everyone at the same level and knowing the optimum way to play then the light-farm probably wouldn't look too bad.
It's completely different in a full instance with people at all different levels, and with all the light farmers competing for two small groups of mobs. Other people nearby can break your chain through ignorance or malice and there is nothing you can do about it. Since the optimum way to farm light apparently hasn't been discovered, you have the added fun of people arguing over different theories and the right way to do things.

You are right Miles, as more people hit 35 this can only get worse. Heaven help anyone coming into Pagos late!

OP here.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the grind in this content here. I should add that I've got nothing against the grind (not that I'm a big fan of it mind) as we've come to expect that from Relic steps in the past. The point I'm making is that finding a place to grind out light at lv35 is a problem. I think someone earlier mentioned switching instances. I've tried that and since there isn't an ability to select a specific instance or start a new one it's total luck and more often that not you'll find yourself just thrown back in the same instance or if it is a new one the good spots are gone in minutes.

The initial design of Pagos would have forced users to basically light grind from lv25 onwards with the expectation that they would almost be at 31 crystals by the time they got to lv35. This would mean that players would have been spread out amongst mobs of different levels as they levelled and gained light during level grinding (as opposed to NM's). The change to boost exp and NM whilst welcome for levelling alone has broken that rule for light gain progression as a direct result. I don't know how someone in the Dev Team didn't see this coming as it was a fairly inevitable consequence of this change.

I proposed one solution earlier and others on this threads have also put across some other ideas as well. My view is either to reduce the light crystal requirement or make a change that removes the issue regarding lack of options/availability for light grinding given the number of lv35's fighting over few resources.

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Originally Posted by TheAzureDream

OP here.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the grind in this content here. I should add that I've got nothing against the grind (not that I'm a big fan of it mind) as we've come to expect that from Relic steps in the past. The point I'm making is that finding a place to grind out light at lv35 is a problem. I think someone earlier mentioned switching instances. I've tried that and since there isn't an ability to select a specific instance or start a new one it's total luck and more often that not you'll find yourself just thrown back in the same instance or if it is a new one the good spots are gone in minutes.

The initial design of Pagos would have forced users to basically light grind from lv25 onwards with the expectation that they would almost be at 31 crystals by the time they got to lv35. This would mean that players would have been spread out amongst mobs of different levels as they levelled and gained light during level grinding (as opposed to NM's). The change to boost exp and NM whilst welcome for levelling alone has broken that rule for light gain progression as a direct result. I don't know how someone in the Dev Team didn't see this coming as it was a fairly inevitable consequence of this change.

I proposed one solution earlier and others on this threads have also put across some other ideas as well. My view is either to reduce the light crystal requirement or make a change that removes the issue regarding lack of options/availability for light grinding given the number of lv35's fighting over few resources.

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Yoshi could always just reveal what the "best way to get light" is instead of being all cryptic about it as well.

Good points raised by the OP and others. For me this is only one aspect of the whole mess that needs revising.
Sort out the Aethernet access levels - stagger the access more evenly.
Get rid of the sleeping mobs - a ridiculous gimmick that only serves to deter players from helping lower levels around.
Remove all the ridiculous jumping down geography from the landscape. An absolute joke that somehow makes your character immortal no matter the fall.
Honestly Pagos is the worst designed content this game has ever seen, and that includes 1.0 which had to be closed and rewritten.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Just wait for legit nerfs, I guess. The devs don't have that quick a turnaround time to rebalance the map before the problem solves itself, as people drop out naturally. I think it should stay as a cautionary "be careful what you ask for when you want it to be harder" tale, though.

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Stop this nonsense right now. Pagos is brain dead. There is nothing remotely "hard" about it. You spam your rotation on the equivalent of a target dummy that procs. You can easily bot your way to 35, that's the degree of brain dead grinding Pagos is. There isn't any "git gud." People wanting harder content are referring to things like Mythic+ dungeons or a return to the difficulty of Thordan and Sephirot EX.

I am just going to wait for the nerf for this relic. There is no point for a casual like myself to try to get a relic weapon when it gets released at the very end of a tome cycle.

With HW and ARR the relic was close behind the raid weapon, and the multiple options to obtain the relic, it was a casual friendly experience.

However with Eureka, and pagos in particular, by now if you are not lvl30+ good luck. There is only 1 way to obtain the relic and that is by NM spawns and mindlessly killing mobs.

It is just a big mess. At this point I am just going to save up for the tome weapon and wait until the Eureka nerfs

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Originally Posted by Derio

I am just going to wait for the nerf for this relic. There is no point for a casual like myself to try to get a relic weapon when it gets released at the very end of a tome cycle.

With HW and ARR the relic was close behind the raid weapon, and the multiple options to obtain the relic, it was a casual friendly experience.

However with Eureka, and pagos in particular, by now if you are not lvl30+ good luck. There is only 1 way to obtain the relic and that is by NM spawns and mindlessly killing mobs.

It is just a big mess. At this point I am just going to save up for the tome weapon and wait until the Eureka nerfs

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I feel much the same. I may (strong may) do the challenge log, but otherwise this is getting relegated to when they nerf it into the ground. If I even bother at all. 4.5 is likely going to be a very long and hollow patch, so it gives me something to do outside raid stuff.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I am just going to wait for the nerf for this relic. There is no point for a casual like myself to try to get a relic weapon when it gets released at the very end of a tome cycle.

With HW and ARR the relic was close behind the raid weapon, and the multiple options to obtain the relic, it was a casual friendly experience.

However with Eureka, and pagos in particular, by now if you are not lvl30+ good luck. There is only 1 way to obtain the relic and that is by NM spawns and mindlessly killing mobs.

It is just a big mess. At this point I am just going to save up for the tome weapon and wait until the Eureka nerfs

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And yet this was all done (the spreading content so much) because they thought its in the best interests of the player-base.

Silly SE.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Stop this nonsense right now. Pagos is brain dead. There is nothing remotely "hard" about it. You spam your rotation on the equivalent of a target dummy that procs. You can easily bot your way to 35, that's the degree of brain dead grinding Pagos is. There isn't any "git gud." People wanting harder content are referring to things like Mythic+ dungeons or a return to the difficulty of Thordan and Sephirot EX.

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The difficulty of Pagos: Staying awake when you’re in there. I nodded off on several occasions during my stay there. Happened a couple of times in Anemos, too, but not near as much as Pagos.

So yeah, Pagos is “difficult”. ;)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I thought this is what already happened (approximately) with monster EXP? First person/party to hit it gets 100% credit, everyone else gets credit according to how much damage they inflicted?

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Well if they did, it is not working correctly. Many times I have seen mobs our party pulls that gets tagged by other party giving no credit.
The way it seems to work is the credit is divided by all people/parties which hit the mob, when NM spawning there are many parties hitting the mob and the credit is divided so often that no-one is getting credit.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Stop this nonsense right now. Pagos is brain dead. There is nothing remotely "hard" about it. \

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Then go do it and quit asking for nerfs, if its so brain dead.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Then go do it and quit asking for nerfs, if its so brain dead.

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I'm not asking for nerfs. I'm asking it not be mind numbingly boring. Wailing on something with no mechanics and little chance of killing me isn't what I call fun. I'd rather do something else or play a different game altogether. I know you're trying to spin the raid argument around but it just doesn't apply here. Savage actually requires me to pay attention. Pagos? I can watch Youtube.

Personally I am having the hardest time with leveling. I am 28 now NMs spawn so infrequently that I don't get much exp and I can't ever get in a group to do the challenge log not many people are my level.

Pagos is the kind of content where, if you're not in there on day 1, hour 1 when the content drops, you're out of luck. That's a crazy expectation to put on players.

And if we haven't found the best way of farming light and increasing level despite lots of tests and trying out different things...why not throw us a little hint? "Chaining mobs" is not a hint.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Personally I am having the hardest time with leveling. I am 28 now NMs spawn so infrequently that I don't get much exp and I can't ever get in a group to do the challenge log not many people are my level.

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Then go into Anemos for the log. You get less exp from the mobs but it goes faster.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Personally I am having the hardest time with leveling. I am 28 now NMs spawn so infrequently that I don't get much exp and I can't ever get in a group to do the challenge log not many people are my level.

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That doesn't surprise me. I went into Pagos just the other day and despite it being prime time hours, the instance was only half full. And a good number of people were high level. Pagos basically has very little appeal, and no incentive whatsoever for high level players to help low level ones. The devs stubbornness has created an enormous roadblock I'm not even sure they can remedy without significant nerfs. People simply aren't interested in grinding trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

Pagos is the kind of content where, if you're not in there on day 1, hour 1 when the content drops, you're out of luck. That's a crazy expectation to put on players.

And if we haven't found the best way of farming light and increasing level despite lots of tests and trying out different things...why not throw us a little hint? "Chaining mobs" is not a hint.

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Hilariously, reddit discussed one of the more efficient ways is to actually die. You want to constantly keep yourself at 34 and chain the sleeping dragons.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Then go into Anemos for the log. You get less exp from the mobs but it goes faster.

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But if I do all my leveling in Anemos then I won't have any light.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

But if I do all my leveling in Anemos then I won't have any light.

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And therein is the biggest flaw throughout this whole show. You need to level up to fight stronger monsters. You need light to make frosted crystals to be able to get your relic. You need to defeat NM's for the pagos crystals.

None of these were designed to seamlessly interweave amongst them. NM's give a small amount of light and crystals... but on launch they nerfed them because of Anemos. Arguably one of the best examples of mechanical interplay, and they actively sought to go against it.

SE has no idea what they're doing with Eureka. Unless they have some like Megamind level of interaction that takes like a PhD to figure out; but of course since they designed it they'd know how it works. But this whole cryptic "no one has figured out the best way yet?" handwavey condescension doesn't foster good will. It fosters animosity.

Id like to see see them remove the loss of exp/light if multiple people or groups attack a mob. The dragon trolling/camping is ridiculous. It makes people really hostile to each other, in an mmo where community is important thats a terrible thing to foster. Thankfully im done with Pagos now, got my weapon and plan on never returning.

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Originally Posted by K1tt

Id like to see see them remove the loss of exp/light if multiple people or groups attack a mob. The dragon trolling/camping is ridiculous. It makes people really hostile to each other, in an mmo where community is important thats a terrible thing to foster. Thankfully im done with Pagos now, got my weapon and plan on never returning.

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The thing to ask is this / are these:
1) Is this issue happening often?
1a) if so how often?
2) is this localized to just NA data centers, or is it happening elsewhere?
2a) if so, is it all of them or a combination?
3) is it happening in JP servers to a similar frequency?
3a) if it is or isnt, are the JP players as upset and vocal about it?

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Originally Posted by K1tt

Id like to see see them remove the loss of exp/light if multiple people or groups attack a mob. The dragon trolling/camping is ridiculous. It makes people really hostile to each other, in an mmo where community is important thats a terrible thing to foster. Thankfully im done with Pagos now, got my weapon and plan on never returning.

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Griefing other players is the only option available to us. The monsters for light grinding are an extremely limited resource and there are so many players. So if you form a group and find all the monsters your group needs are currently occupied by other groups your only option are give up and quit playing or grief one of the groups until they do. The design of the instance anything takes hours so there is no waiting your turn, SE also failed to give us any mechanic involving laying claim.

SE may not have wanted players to grief other players, at least they say that. Their game design on the other hand leaves us no choice, it's on them.

I have an important question to SE that I’d like a legitimate answer too. In 2 months or so How can Eureka even get a nerfed if no one goes in? Has anyone even bothered to think about this? Because honestly I will probably never get more then 1 relic.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Griefing other players is the only option available to us. The monsters for light grinding are an extremely limited resource and there are so many players. So if you form a group and find all the monsters your group needs are currently occupied by other groups your only option are give up and quit playing or grief one of the groups until they do. The design of the instance anything takes hours so there is no waiting your turn, SE also failed to give us any mechanic involving laying claim.

SE may not have wanted players to grief other players, at least they say that. Their game design on the other hand leaves us no choice, it's on them.

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No.

Nothing is ever a justification for griefing other players. The fact that you think this is the ONLY recourse available, while simultaeneously having Yoshi himself say that people haven't yet found the best method to get light, is pathetic. Loathe as I am to defend that, it's still a point to be brought up.

If doing the same thing over and over and not trying something else isn't working, but people are too disinterested/apathetic to consider trying anything else, I better not hear them once complain about someone griefing them if they feel justified in doing it themselves.

Are people at wit's end about this? Yes, and it's frustrating. Pagos is frustrating.

While not directed at you specifically Miles, I need to use the word you in the general sense here: If you think anything is a good enough reason to grief other players, you're both wrong, and a terrible player looking for an excuse to continue being a jackhole.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

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Eh. It depends how you define griefing. Many people will consider it griefing if your group attempts to forcibly push another group from their camp spot by sniping the dragons as they spawn yet the design of Pagos all but encourages such competitive and aggressive behavior. Your alternative is significantly less progression or none at all, hoping that particular spawn location is available whenever you have free time to play again. The fact this is even a consideration speaks to how poorly executed Pagos is. The sheer linearity destroys any potential corporation. Yoshida can prattle on about how we haven't found the best method yet, but it's all hot air at this point. After all, he could easily be lying by omission in the vein hope people keep going into Pagos to keep it active. It certainly wouldn't be the first time his PR statement don't line up with actual gameplay components. On the other hand, even if we do take him at face value, then we're back to the aforementioned poor design. There shouldn't be a month long guestimation on how their super special awesome system of relativity works.

Complexity for complexity's sake isn't innovation. It's simply bad design.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

-cut-

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I agree wholesale. Either he's lying through his teeth and he and the team will have to scramble to make what he's saying factual stealthily, or he's being honest and hopes players can figure it out.

They havent.

And there's only so many things one can experiment on that yield less than ideal results. Pagos is poorly designed and not entirely well thought out, I agree and have made that same statement myself.

But griefing for the sake of efficiency at the expense of others in a game that totes "anyone can do any content on anything" is wrong. That sentiment implies a welcoming nature to the game. and for the most part is has that... but we're back to Pagos and how it runs counter to that. Unless it turns out there is a more efficient method that works to promote that. I doubt it, seeing as how aggressively against it the game's current end-game content design doesn't support that.

Honestly I hope 4.4 does something major to address this, else more and more people are going to tire of the content and abandon it, or attitudes like this will only get worse and spread throughout the rest of the playerbase slowly.

tl;dr: Yoshi fix yo game (again).

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

SE may not have wanted players to grief other players, at least they say that. Their game design on the other hand leaves us no choice, it's on them.

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We do have a choice, we can stop playing. I've got to level 34, the challenge log should get me to 35 and I can do that in Anemos.
I'm not bothering with the light farm until either this fabled 'efficient' method is found or the dev team make changes to Pagos.

The fewer players who bother with this content, the more likely I think they are to change it.
I'd like to say that discussing the issues here is helpful too, but I have serious doubts that any of the points raised, or suggestions for improvements that we post on the forum, actually get back to the devs.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

I'd like to say that discussing the issues here is helpful too, but I have serious doubts that any of the points raised, or suggestions for improvements that we post on the forum, actually get back to the devs.

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Well, based on the silly earrings thread. Its seems they do, at least to a degree.

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Originally Posted by TheAzureDream

To fix this I suggest the following changes: reduce light crystal requirements for a weapon to step 1=2 crystals, step 2=3 crystals, step 3=5 crystals.

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I think it would be better (and not make the relic so easy) to make lights progress much more than now in NM (mobs maybe too?), so that when you reach 500 crystals you only need maybe some more (5 or 8, but not 15 or 20) light bars plus the 5 Louhi ice (that you will already have for sure.) This way the bottleneck would be much smaller. And not everyone is yet level 35, so it can get worse. Well, people that get burnt and do 1 relic compared to several in Anemos also aliviates the bottleneck but in a less happy way.