Can RDM get a little bit of love...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Actually no it isn't irrelevant The original cross role system meant that any base class such as Marauder, Pugilist or Lancer etc all could have access to Raise if the player's CNJ was a high enough level. Even Paladin had access to Raise but could not use it in combat (only outside) as only the healers had access to the respective traits. Sure you wouldn't have a lvl 50 Rogue doing high level content because of what it had access to, but the trait was still there to keep the job identities they were supposed to be and not have some random class being used as a unintended Raise dispenser.

Every class had its own animation for each of the cross skills too. Like a Dragoon using Fracture vs a Paladin using Fracture. Same with spells like Cure or Raise--Dragoons would do a little twirl with their spear and Paladins would use their Sword like a WHM uses a 1h cane.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Actually no it isn't irrelevant The original cross role system meant that any base class such as Marauder, Pugilist or Lancer etc all could have access to Raise if the player's CNJ was a high enough level. Even Paladin had access to Raise but could not use it in combat (only outside) as only the healers had access to the respective traits. Sure you wouldn't have a lvl 50 Rogue doing high level content because of what it had access to, but the trait was still there to keep the job identities they were supposed to be and not have some random class being used as a unintended Raise dispenser.

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Which was irrelevant. Because no one was going to be a level 50 Pugilist throwing out raises.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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I know but my point was that's why there was traits for Rez spells. And that's a response to the person who mentioned about combat and non combat rezzes in WoW, which essentially this game used to have.

Please stop trolling with the same line, it's getting tired and you still have brought nothing relevant to the debate. Traits were there, fact.

A solution could be to make an instant battleraise as talent with a longer cooldown (>5mins) and remove normal raise casts from all dps. Keep normal raise as cast for healers only. But then there would be still complaints that 2 casters can raise and other dps can not.

Restrict raise to healers completely and adjust dps of rdm -> problem solved and no one complaining, no more specific niche for some classes in progress, no more whining healers that want to dps instead of raise, so rdm or smn shall raise.

the int based heal would still remain as major advantage for non-savage content tho ^^‘

The only relevant content for balancing is the content where ppl exclude specific jobs just because they are bad. I don't care if some other job is OP for normal dungeon farming. I do that as random duty, so no one would exclude me or prefer someone else.

I can not do savage content as random duty, that's unrealistic. So I need a premade group and currently they still often exclude SAM, BLM and RDM

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

The only relevant content for balancing is the content where ppl exclude specific jobs just because they are bad. I don't care if some other job is OP for normal dungeon farming. I do that as random duty, so no one would exclude me or prefer someone else.

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Well one could also say „I don’t care savage at all... but I care rare archivments like titles“ tho - it’s not the best argument to say I don’t care balance in content xyz as long they balance the content „I“ personally are interested in... just sayin.

It just seems a bit odd if complaining about being „forced“ to play smn cause Rdm/Blm are weaker in savage is okay but complaining about being forced (this time really be forced) to play RDM to get the potd/hoh archivments is irrelevant because you are not interested in that content as well. -> that’s not balance, that’s personal interest- nothing else.

not even talking about that Rdm is by far the most flexible & effektive cls in Eureka as well... - but I guess that’s again non of your business, right? : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

not even talking about that Rdm is by far the most flexible & effektive cls in Eureka as well... - but I guess that’s again non of your business, right? : /

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Balance matters in competitive content. You could argue Deep Dungeon is competitive, but I doubt anyone would agree there based solely on the way that content is designed.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Well one could also say „I don’t care savage at all... but I care rare archivments like titles“ tho - it’s not the best argument to say I don’t care balance in content xyz as long they balance the content „I“ personally are interested in... just sayin.

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Unrelated but...why does your formatting seem to get worse with every post? x-x

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It just seems a bit odd if complaining about being „forced“ to play smn cause Rdm/Blm are weaker in savage is okay but complaining about being forced (this time really be forced) to play RDM to get the potd/hoh archivments is irrelevant because you are not interested in that content as well. -> that’s not balance, that’s personal interest- nothing else.

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You're literally the only person I know whose ever made the claim that RDM should be the HoH/PotD/Eureka mage and shouldn't care about Savage. Balancing RDM to have perhaps a weaker heal and less raise capabilities would solve the issues of being "forced" to play that job in order to beat PotD solo. Also I'm still not convinced no other job could do it, just that people made the decision only RDM can for some reason. It's a game of RNG no matter what job you play.

Balancing is not about which content we like. It is about in which content will balancing affect our gaming experience.

In every content that does not need premade groups you will never be affected by minor unbalancing.

There is a big difference between savage/ultimate/primal content and dutys, solostuff, achievements. The first one NEEDS premade groups where the community will decide whom to accept. The second one has no or random groups where the system decides.

That's the reason why I say: Savage is the relevant content for balancing. I is top gear tier and designed to be played by most players.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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I have long said that Summoner needs nerfed, or both of the other casters need buffed, but preferably the former. Summoner is too close to Black Mage in pDPS to compensate the rDPS they bring as well as the Raise utility. I'm not sure what to do with Red Mage honestly. I love playing it (not as much as Black Mage), but the low DPS pushes me away from it. When I can deal as much damage as an i262 Black Mage as some of the highest Red Mage parses, it's a tough pill to swallow. I don't know how much of a pDPS buff Red Mages can get without Dual-Raise becoming too powerful, but I would definitely support some Utility/rDPS increases.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

I have long said that Summoner needs nerfed, or both of the other casters need buffed, but preferably the former.

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I would argue the latter is the better option. It's been brought up in either this or the "So, About Summoner..." thread, but Black Mage, Red Mage, and Summoner are not alone in their war for the fourth DPS slot in the party: they are also competing against Machinist and, in any fight that allows triple melee, Monk. Summoner is at a place where it offers legitimate challenge against the established Physical Ranged meta, and to nerf it wouldn't help Red Mages and Black Mages who just don't want to play Summoner; it would only shift the job which they're pestered into swapping to.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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You make a lot of great points here. I actually think Black Mage could use a fairly large buff because it has 0 rDPS contribution and is quite difficult to master (despite a seriously simplistic rotation) in high level content, and they provide no utility outside Cross-class. Summoner is honestly just too close to be fair. Even Monks have gotten very close and they bring a fair amount of rDPS and utility, i.e. Brotherhood and Mantra. But, buff BLM too much and you end up with them being too good. Samurais could likely use the same treatment, but I don't play it all and don't have an opinion, though at least they have Slashing (worthless as that is in the meta). As for Red Mage, I don't know enough about them to offer detailed changes, but I generally agree with you that they need buffed in some way.

Nerfing is never really the solution, that would be just bad decisions.
Other jobs should be buffed or changes to utility (in case of Red Mage)
Make utility too strong and you are stuck with mid to lower damage (Ninja)

Verraise the mp cost should be raised or removed entirely and in turn replaced by better support abilities.

Why is nerf not a solution? You not only need to balance between jobs, you also need to balance for content. If you buff, buff, buff then suddenly content gets too easy.

I have no problem with a nerf if it has a good reason and is fair. I would not cry if smn is nerfed a bit (adjust numbers).

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Originally Posted by Maero

Nerfing is never really the solution, that would be just bad decisions.

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This is blatantly wrong.

Circle buffing, which is where we find ourselves patch after patch, is just as bad.

If all jobs are balanced and one or two are noticably stronger, it makes more sense to nerf 2 jobs than buff 13 others.Especially because the aftermath of buffing others isn't immediately apparent and you risk overbuffing like with what they did to AST in 3.x.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Nerfing is never really the solution, that would be just bad decisions.
Other jobs should be buffed or changes to utility (in case of Red Mage)
Make utility too strong and you are stuck with mid to lower damage (Ninja)

Verraise the mp cost should be raised or removed entirely and in turn replaced by better support abilities.

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the problem with buffing and more buffing lead with serious problems of power creep, for no mention it creates issues with jobs that are by default fine like for example SAM or RDM who start the expansion with a perfect place but the constant overbuffs of they respectives partners leave it behind and now ask for help, balance is made by buffing if is necesary and nerfing if is necesary too, rely only on one of those only creates more problems and is a never ends, devs should rely more on nerfs if they overbuff something.

Being a RDM main I feel like I'm not doing much, after me and My static started clearing and we needed to do more DPS to clear faster and get to the next fight so at some point they wanted me to try and switch to SMN because they wanted more DPS and I did well around 5.6K+ (not BiS) but still they wanted more and I agreed... I feel like being able to raise fast doesn't mean I need to be that weak compared to other jobs...

My point was smn is where it should be at so why nerf it? Blm still needs minor buffs and the state of Red Mage is sad, it needs to be looked at and not brushed aside.
Every job has seen buffs or changes or multiple changes, Red Mage has not. We are far enough into the expansion and SE have enough feedback from Red Mage players that there is no excuse to at the very least have a look at the job.

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Originally Posted by Igneel_DB

Being a RDM main I feel like I'm not doing much, after me and My static started clearing and we needed to do more DPS to clear faster

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at risk of sounding like the guy from the SMN post, why does your group need to clear faster. Are you guys speed killing? If not then you don’t “need” to clear faster and that’s not a problem with RDM

Just imagine we had several low dps jobs (for their rdps) and several high dps jobs (rdps).

Now a group consisting of high dps jobs beats the encounter really fast and has a lot time left until enrage.
A group consisting of low dps jobs beats the encounter too but has nearly no time left until enrage.

Question: Which group is allowed for more lethal mechanic fails that don't wipe the entire group but lower the groups overall dps?
Right: Only the group with high dps jobs.

That's the reason why all dps jobs should be balanced by their rdps and not by some other utility.