According to FFLogs, AST pDPS >= WHM pDPS in 4.3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Also, I feel you are very optimistic. If AST continues to have as much pDPS as WHM on top of their buffs, and being able to heal everything just fine, WHM will be left out eventually. Because why take them if you have someone who can do the same with some extra?

---

Oh trust me, I know exactly where this road with WHM is heading. We've dealt with this exact same issue in HW. I'm being a bit more optimistic this time around because I'm hoping SE will notice they unintentionally overbuffed AST.
If nothing changes before the next raid tier, I am afraid where we'll be in the raid scene...

I'm afraid we're about to go from a strong raid asset to simply viable outside of progression...

If the DPS data keeps trending like they do now, 4.4 would be a good opportunity for S-E to re-evaluate how they want WHM to fit into the healer dynamic. Making changes to SotL to help boost WHMs identity and rebalance the healers again. I feel S-E hasn't touched SotL too much because of the current delicate balance. If the data continues to trend that AST is getting ahead on the pDPS level, this would be a good opportunity to put WHM back in line with the other healers via kit modifications.

I'd also like to remind everyone who's poking at this thread that the DPS values listed show the raw contribution of each job and aren't necessarily indicative of the absolute pDPS each healer brings. The DPS value listed is both a combination of their pDPS and the bonus rDPS they get from other jobs. Assuming all other aspects of the group composition and skill are equal, WHM is actually at a disadvantage when looking at these statistics because they can only gain DPS from the off healer's buffs, where as AST and SCH can potentially both double dip on DPS buffs if the composition is AST/SCH. This will skew results unfavorable towards WHM. IE, AST gains +400 DPS from both Chain Stratagem and Balance over a course of a fight but WHM only gains +200 for either Chain Stratagem or Balance, thus pushing WHMs pDPS value higher than shown. It's impossible to determine each jobs absolute pDPS because nothing works in a vacuum in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

WHM was nerfed VERY often, as proven to you beneath you.

---

If you're basing this off of Tint's list from earlier, I'm mostly in agreement with Miste's response to the whole thing.

The only unjustified nerf I feel would be the loss of Divine Seal and the gain of Largesse in Cross Role. And even then, WHM has such a wide myriad of healing tools that a healing magic potency buff would lose some effectiveness.

The holy nerf was justified since WHM would be the king/queen of all AoE damage if it maintained the 240 potency.

Stoneskin loss wasn't much of a loss in my mind just because there were extremely few instances where using Stoneskin was better than using Cure II. Especially since WHM got a better Stoneskin in the form of Divine Benison (which got buffed mid expansion, I might add), and also the loss of Stoneskin was mitigated in some respect because Weakness doesn't lower Vitality anymore and thus the eHP shield isn't as necessary now to help keep weakened players alive.

The three "nerfs" above would be the only things I would consider nerfs and even then I feel either they're justified or the changes weren't high impact to the WHM kit overall.

Ha, when they first listed these changes it was kind of funny to see a few of my non-healer friends saying, "oh, it was just to solve clipping, it probably won't make much difference at all because the recast timer stays the same". Like, having a half-cast spell with non-DPS-gimping Lightspeed wouldn't be a pretty big buff to AST DPS, since most healer DPS restrictions have to do with managing to get spells off during high mobility/mechanics periods haha. To say nothing of extending Lightspeed and Cleric Stance on yourself to get even more DPS while relieving some mana crunch.

I honestly have no idea why this was the solution SE chose. Did clipping really bother most of the healers here? Sure, it didn't exactly "feel" elegant, but it was a hair-second delay for me, hardly worth a 1-second cast time decrease to our primary DPS spell. I would have rather they just split Combust and Combust II apart again, and kept Combust II instant-cast to solve any Draw shenanigans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I feel S-E hasn't touched SotL too much because of the current delicate balance.

---

Just on this in particular... it makes me wish SE simply hadn't touched healer balance. SCH+AST was "meta" for parse runs/high end groups, but WHM still used a lot, especially in progression. It was not a terrible place to be, balance wise.

And these changes, once more, fail to give SCH any competition at all. Instead threatening only WHM, as usual...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I honestly have no idea why this was the solution SE chose. Did clipping really bother most of the healers here? Sure, it didn't exactly "feel" elegant, but it was a hair-second delay for me, hardly worth a 1-second cast time decrease to our primary DPS spell. I would have rather they just split Combust and Combust II apart again, and kept Combust II instant-cast to solve any Draw shenanigans.

---

In all actuality, this change with Malefic feels like the less elegant solution. While I get that it's certainly strong, it just feels clunky to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elamys

In all actuality, this change with Malefic feels like the less elegant solution. While I get that it's certainly strong, it just feels clunky to play.

---

I feel the same way, tbh. I have increased flexibility with maximizing damage uptime but it feels really jarring to have a shortcast DPS move with the same GCD as everything else. I'm sure I'll get used to it in time, but I'd still rather have two instant cast DoTs instead. Would make doing DPS as an Astro at least a LITTLE less...mind-numbing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Nobody talks about SCH because AST doesn't threaten SCH in any way, shape, or form. Also, you got the best crit buff in the game. You got nothing to complain in this regard.

---

You probably didn't understand my point.
I'm saying how people (mostly WHM mains) utterly complain about AST and don't say a word about Scholar.
Since the addition of Miasma 2, SCH is on the same level than WHM, while it shouldn't, considering the amount of utility the job brings on its kit.
WHM isn't that essential for progress anymore. Scholar is.
Open your eyes. It's not only AST who needs nerfs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

.
Open your eyes. It's not only AST who needs nerfs.

---

I'm repeating myself here, but a lot of people have given up on SCH ever being balanced. It's in a class of it's own at this point. The one time it was doing slightly bad, SE buffed it up immediately without hesitation and have done so in every patch in SB so far whether it needed it or not.

For better or worse, AST is the only job we can hope to have a chance at matching because we're not too far from them. Since SCH is an indisputable spot in any static raid spot, it's usually just WHM vs Diu AST, which is why you'll see most WHM specifically mentioning AST when talking about balance. They're all we're comparable to.
It's not that we think SCH is balanced and fine where it is, it's just a losing battle complaining about them.

Edit: I use the word we a lot, but this is just my opinion really. Obviously it would be nice for SCH to step down a bit and give everyone else a chance, but that's just not happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I feel the same way, tbh. I have increased flexibility with maximizing damage uptime but it feels really jarring to have a shortcast DPS move with the same GCD as everything else. I'm sure I'll get used to it in time, but I'd still rather have two instant cast DoTs instead. Would make doing DPS as an Astro at least a LITTLE less...mind-numbing.

---

It took me longer than I would like to admit to realize why I couldn't queue casts with it anymore. And now many times I find myself sitting there hammering the key and then there ends up being a little pause that pushes everything back. So annoying x.x

The Malefic III cast is awesome since I can actually weave oGCDs after the cast. It takes a bit of getting used to because the GCD is the same, but it is great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

You probably didn't understand my point.
I'm saying how people (mostly WHM mains) utterly complain about AST and don't say a word about Scholar.
Since the addition of Miasma 2, SCH is on the same level than WHM, while it shouldn't, considering the amount of utility the job brings on its kit.
WHM isn't that essential for progress anymore. Scholar is.
Open your eyes. It's not only AST who needs nerfs.

---

Maybe because SCH is the WAR of the healers. If SCH is not optimal, S-E treats it as a critical bug and correct that right away.

There is no chance for a AST/WHM comp being META.

Called it. (This post serves no other purpose than to pat myself on the back)
Also I've been meaning to respond to one of Miste's posts somewhere but forgot where it was... Also probably no longer relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm repeating myself here, but a lot of people have given up on SCH ever being balanced. It's in a class of it's own at this point. The one time it was doing slightly bad, SE buffed it up immediately without hesitation and have done so in every patch in SB so far whether it needed it or not.

For better or worse, AST is the only job we can hope to have a chance at matching because we're not too far from them. Since SCH is an indisputable spot in any static raid spot, it's usually just WHM vs Diu AST, which is why you'll see most WHM specifically mentioning AST when talking about balance. They're all we're comparable to.
It's not that we think SCH is balanced and fine where it is, it's just a losing battle complaining about them.

Edit: I use the word we a lot, but this is just my opinion really. Obviously it would be nice for SCH to step down a bit and give everyone else a chance, but that's just not happening.

---

The issue, as has been since 2.0, is White Mage lacks utility and generally has to work harder than other healers because White Mage is more of the manual stick-shift type of healer whereas SCH and AST have more automatic functions, especially SCH.

WHM doesn't have enough unique traits to it and I wish it did. No idea why they robbed us of our Stoneskin either even if we have Divine Benison I would still like Stonesklin II back.

Guess it's time to learn AST or play another role. I don't trust SE to fix WHM with how they've handled them at the end of HW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiorinol

Guess it's time to learn AST or play another role. I don't trust SE to fix WHM with how they've handled them at the end of HW.

---

Might as well it is not that hard next to Whm and outside of Cure 3 and Thin Air it has more going for it, it feels really good right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Might as well it is not that hard next to Whm and outside of Cure 3 and Thin Air it has more going for it, it feels really good right now.

---

I really dislike the card mechanic. RNG is very frustrating and makes it difficult to have a consistent run.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I'm repeating myself here, but a lot of people have given up on SCH ever being balanced. [...] The one time it was doing slightly bad, SE buffed it up immediately without hesitation and have done so in every patch in SB so far whether it needed it or not.

For better or worse, AST is the only job we can hope to have a chance at matching because we're not too far from them. Since SCH is an indisputable spot in any static raid spot, it's usually just WHM vs Diu AST, which is why you'll see most WHM specifically mentioning AST when talking about balance. They're all we're comparable to.
It's not that we think SCH is balanced and fine where it is, it's just a losing battle complaining about them. [...]

---

I couldn't have said it any better. SCH is SE's favorite child for whatever effing reason, closely followed by AST. WHM is the hated step-child.

Spoiler:

You know, just like Yotsuyu. They even w***ed out our abilities...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caduagm

I know it's a little off post, but it's funny to see all the complains about AST's slightly less or equal DPS than WHM and nobody saying a thing about Scholar... :thinking:
Please don't get me wrong, I am all up for whm buffs after this; it's just funny how people are blind about Scholar.

---

SCH doesn't compete with WHM for a spot - AST does.

so WHMs don't care about SCH.

edit: wait a moment, the wording is bad o.ô; i mean an AST can replace a WHM, a SCH cannot. but of course you are competing against SCH when the group already has an AST.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

The issue, as has been since 2.0, is White Mage lacks utility

---

No, ironically, in 2.x WHM had utility. It was stripped for fear WHM would become mandatory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

No, ironically, in 2.x WHM had utility. It was stripped for fear WHM would become mandatory.

---

Are you referring to Stoneskin II? That's still suck a shame, considering AST and SCH both have skills that can be considered mandatory in raids (SCH especially).
It almost feels like they hand select which jobs to meticulously balance, and which jobs to just go all out and break.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Are you referring to Stoneskin II? That's still suck a shame, considering AST and SCH both have skills that can be considered mandatory in raids (SCH especially).
It almost feels like they hand select which jobs to meticulously balance, and which jobs to just go all out and break.

---

he was refering to the Proshell trait. originally only WHM could increse the magic defense with Protect, everyone else could only increse the physical defense. WHM also lost the 18% Stoneskin.

and in exchange WHM got traits wich randomly reduced the MP cost of Medica and that you could cast Stoneskin 0.5 seconds faster... yaaay...

i don't even say that WHM should have kept the Proshell exclusivity... but they should have given him something meaningfull back in exchange... and the excuse for removing the 18% Stoneskin because "% scaling shields are too powerfull with the incresed HP pools" feels like a joke now, considering we now have a 15% instant off-gcd shield and the 20% / 10% shield of DRK wich scales always at the DRKs HP and Shake it Off from WAR...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

but they should have given him something meaningfull back in exchange... and the excuse for removing the 18% Stoneskin because "% scaling shields are too powerfull with the incresed HP pools" feels like a joke now, considering we now have a 15% instant off-gcd shield and the 20% / 10% shield of DRK wich scales always at the DRKs HP and Shake it Off from WAR...

---

as similar TBN and SIO effects are to stoneskin they are not as spam able as Stone skin was
i didnt think Stone skin was really broken
but i don't think it should be brought back either
instead they should improve divine benison either let it be a party buff with 3 stacks of lilies
or it can work with the confession stacks

Mobility is a huge buff, so it was kinda to be expected that it'd be a huge DPS gain for AST. WHM definitely needs a buff to keep up.
I think WHM needs something that counters their inability to DPS well during extensive movement, for example by increasing the initial potency of Aero 2 to 120-150 potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiorinol

I really dislike the card mechanic. RNG is very frustrating and makes it difficult to have a consistent run.

---

Actually it's not THAT rng…..you get XX number of card pulls, and you can either use them for oGCD heals or additional DPS if you don't like what you drew. Chances are very high you'll be pulling several desired party-dps buff hands in every 8-12 minute fight. Knowing when to play them is a learned skill.

Regarding this thread, I think white mage is fine where it's at....It is just like Dark Knight, Samurai and Black mage. Minimal party-utility but maximum raw healing output.

Dark knight has max single target mitigation...SAM has huge melee dps output, BLM has huge ranged dps output.

You can't expect every class to synergize. But if you just wanna have fun and clear content, go right ahead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Are you referring to Stoneskin II? That's still suck a shame, considering AST and SCH both have skills that can be considered mandatory in raids (SCH especially).
It almost feels like they hand select which jobs to meticulously balance, and which jobs to just go all out and break.

---

Proshell and Graniteskin, namely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

You can't expect every class to synergize. But if you just wanna have fun and clear content, go right ahead.

---

Ah yes, the ol "Other classes have balance problems so we should ignore this class's balance problems" argument.

--

Really though, that's not the issue. It's a problem with healers as a whole. Imagine if SAM had all the utility of NIN and DRG, but kept its top damage output. "Oh but you can't expect every class to synergize, just play the others for fun!". Wouldn't sound very convincing, now would it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Really though, that's not the issue. It's a problem with healers as a whole. Imagine if SAM had all the utility of NIN and DRG, but kept its top damage output. "Oh but you can't expect every class to synergize, just play the others for fun!". Wouldn't sound very convincing, now would it?

---

Why make any improvements if you just always can claim fun goes over everything else, even if this "everything else" is being brought to raids, right? Which would mean that the "fun" is mostly moot, because if you got no chance to play the job, there is no fun in playing it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Minimal party-utility but maximum raw healing output.

Dark knight has max single target mitigation...SAM has huge melee dps output, BLM has huge ranged dps output.

---

This is how it SHOULD be. The reality is, DRK isn't the best at even single target mitigation, SAM isn't the strongest melee and BLM isn't the strongest ranged.
WHM does indeed have the most healing throughout readily available, but how often do you need more than what a SCH or AST offers? And they can reach such healing numbers without aggro issues.

Most casual-midcore statics don't care about party comp & if they do, they're not one you should bother with....if you're not trying to clear content within the first few weeks of their release then your group is casual-midcore.

New content is spaced out the way it is for a reason. It gives everyone time to get & upgrade their tome gear.

If you want to clear things quickly, you need a dedicated team that coordinates well and leverages their jobs' synergy.

You will be very hard-pressed to find many groups who can clear ANY savage content at minimum IL. Even week 2 clears, groups are already upgraded gear beyond that point. Sure, it can probably be done without using a META comp, I challenge you to find any week 1 O8S clears that don't have at least some job synergy.

I doubt any of the people here complaining about astro changes do any of that nor consistently play at a top 90% level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

bottom line: casual-midcore don't care so it's fine if hardcore groups do

---

Locking a class to 'casual mode' only is also bu****it. It doesn't matter if anyone here cleared week one, or even tried to. They should all be able to be taken by any kind of group if they are good enough, or else there's something going very wrong there.

I think were quite a few world-first groups who took WHM as well as DRK for Sigmascape. There will doubtless be many more who take WHM/DRK for the new ultimate as well.


Anybody crying over top 1% healer parses on FFLOGS doing 50 DPS less than another healer have something very wrong going on in their head. Bottom line.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

I think were quite a few world-first groups who took WHM as well as DRK for Sigmascape. There will doubtless be many more who take WHM/DRK for the new ultimate as well.


Anybody crying over top 1% healer parses on FFLOGS doing 50 DPS less than another healer have something very wrong going on in their head. Bottom line.

---

With the other healer in question also bringing more raid DPS in general because buffs. Nothing wrong complaining about imbalance where there is imbalance. That's the only way to get rid of it - pointing it out (and praying that the Devs finally get their asses up and actually do something about the imbalance...).

There's a reason many hardcore groups take whm for prog.....You don't hear "AST Mains" crying about that.

This isn't WoW....we don't want every job to be the same. There are strengths and weaknesses....you might perceive it as an imbalance, but it isn't necessarily.

AST mains have nothing to cry about. they're a 100% promised slot in most pug groups and in speed runs. They're quite frankly getting QoL and Buffs often (while everyone got a nerf bat at the beginning of SB via the new Cross Role system and class skill adjustments)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

There's a reason many hardcore groups take whm for prog.....You don't hear "AST Mains" crying about that.

---

I want the number of hardcore groups taking WHM over AST for prog, and also the numbers from the final Omega (meaning Omega 3), please, since numbers from a mostly balanced past are kinda useless for an unbalanced future.

And why the HELL should an AST main cry? They weren't bad off for a very long time now, and are on the way on being mandatory again, who would ever cry about that???
Plus, comparing the number of buffs ASTs got compared to WHMs, they got no effing reason to ever complain. Not stopping some from doing so anyway, but that's humans for you.

If you ever played ast pre-4.3 you'd know the GCD clipping was one of the most god-awful things to ever have to experience or deal with...that is if you even know what it's like to keep your GCD rolling for an entire fight..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

If you ever played ast pre-4.3 you'd know the GCD clipping was one of the most god-awful things to ever have to experience or deal with...that is if you even know what it's like to keep your GCD rolling for an entire fight..

---

Not sure how that's related, and what that got to do with the completely uncalled-for buff to LS that's responsible for a lot of the damage gain, but okay. Sure.
It also doesn't change how the class was viewed in the past, namely, great because of buffs. Last time I checked, this was about damage output, not how the class felt.

Lightspeed has almost nothing to do with the DPS gain. LOL wow. The lightspeed buff might be that 50 dps pushing top ASTs ahead...again, only in highly coordinated groups with minimal GCDs spent on healing.


Pug ASTs will almost never get to do gravity bursts on non-adds

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kittyn

Lightspeed has almost nothing to do with the DPS gain. LOL wow.

---

Helping with MP issues by buffing the reduction percentage has a LOT to do with DPS gains in my eyes, and the fact that LS now doesn't reduce damage anymore means that AST now at least can DPS while using that skill. Not solely, but at least LS doesn't gimp ASTs damage output anymore, so there is a gain if you want to see it or not. Yes, clipping reduction is also important, but don't underestimate this particular buff.

Healer gcd clipping has a far greater impact on dps output than 10 seconds of damage-reduced lightspeed....before 4.3 I would almost exclusively use lightspeed to rez only.

Now it can be used to move or do gravity-bursts IF you have the mp to spare..still doesn't come cheap. MP is still a huge issue for AST...if anything you'd use lightspeed to conserve throughout a lot of fights.