4.3 AST changes/speculations

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

CU being changed to 60s is tricky. It's incredibly strong afterall. Instead, maybe change Celestial Opposition to 90s so it alligns better with CU.

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Mhhh CU 60s would be great for the Nocturnal. But this talent is just inflexible. You have to maintain that talent, you have to be in the right place and have a terrible cooldown timer. Yep it has a HoT, but this is reason enough against 1m CD. I do not think so.

But a change with CU would made the Diurnal Ast stronger. And I hardly think that Diurnal needs improvement. The solution to the problem lies elsewhere...

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

CU being changed to 60s is tricky. It's incredibly strong afterall. Instead, maybe change Celestial Opposition to 90s so it alligns better with CU.

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But Lucid Dream have 120 sec.

I haven't read every post, but I just wanted to make a comment based on what I read at the start. Be advised I play SCH, so my opinion might seem biased, but I swear it's not. While slight changes to Nocturnal Sect might be good, it can't and shouldn't change drastically. Right now you can use Noct Sect comfortably, but too far in either direction and it'll either make them too weak, or out perform SCH by a wide margin. SCH still needs to be the "sheild" healer, not AST.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

(...). While slight changes to Nocturnal Sect might be good, it can't and shouldn't change drastically. Right now you can use Noct Sect comfortably, but too far in either direction and it'll either make them too weak, or out perform SCH by a wide margin. SCH still needs to be the "sheild" healer, not AST.

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Hey again Eloah,

First at all this thread is not "Scholor vs Nocturnal AST" thread! If you want write "Sch still needs to be THE "shield" healer and not the AST."

If you want to comment this, I recommend you this thread: Scholar vs Astrologian Mitigation

I find it questionable to suggest that the Nocturnal astro is right now "comfortably".

But I'm so free to show, a section of an astrologian guide by the player Sweet Memories of the realm "Faerie"

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/180430/zjcy6il4.png

Source: Astrologian A Healer’s Handbook V. 2

That's not my view. But it shows that a sandbox healer should have the freedom. But not in the case which the Astro has now.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

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Umm... hi?

I'm not entirely sure why you made that reply, but thank you? I wasn't indicating this was a SCH vs Noct AST thread, just that in my opinion Noct Sect "works" now, and I personally don't think it needs a change. And if it does get one it should be minor.

The main reason I said they were "comfortable" at the moment is because right now the shields provide enough mitigation to be viable, without shifting the healer dynamic and throwing off the balance.

I'm sure plenty of players still hate it. But that doesn't mean it isnt working as intended.

Honestly though, the biggest change thst should be made is the ability to swap stances in battle, but at a "price". What that price should be I'm not sure. Maybe make it a personal/unique card buff that lets you use the other sect for 10-15s or so; Lunar Ascension, Stellar Decent, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I didn't raid Ultimate so someone correct me if I'm mistaken regarding the next bit.

AST wasn't brought to Ultimate because there was a mandatory wipe mechanic at around the 15 minute mark when Bahamut goes Saiyan on you soon afterwards. This wipe mechanic also removed all buffs (including stored cards). The next phase afterwards is a short 3 minute window of DPS and heals check with minor mechanics. Thus you couldn't store cards for this part of the fight and had to fish for cards during a very small window of the fight.

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That was irrelevant imo as that phase was 3 minutes and you could draw an arrow/spear/balance and have access to 2 sleeve draws. Also funny enough, a few groups I've known progged the fight on WHM and then switched to AST at the end for the last golden bahamut phase.

The real reason it wasn't brought as much into savage is because there aren't a lot of good ASTs that can make the job shine in a prog setting. That and the general notion is WHM for prog and AST for speeds/optimization/parses. IMO, AST is viable in prog (as someone who has progged and cleared as AST from start to finish) because just as a SCH would plan their deployment or fairy CDs, so does an AST with their CDs and earthlies. In a fight specifically like Ultimate, the 60 second nature of phases makes CD planning simple and earthly really shines.

That being said, I think these buffs are aimed at noct as it's pretty clear that the buff to SCH shields really took the wind out of the noct for progression. Though, I'd like a noct buff, an insta stella would be nicer as well as some MP buffs. If no noct buff though, I'd like to see SCH succor buff reverted.

Personally, I believe they need to buff the potency on the normal Benefic. As it stands right now, using the normal benefic in end-game content is pretty unviable.

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Originally Posted by AmurT

The Benefic proc hardly comes into play as well and I wonder why it's even there. If you're lucky enough to proc it, you're hardly ever going to be in the situation to actually use the crit proc in the next few seconds the buff remains active.

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Do you think the proc would be more useful if it didn't have a duration time like MCH's ammunition?
That way, you can save it for a big heal.

The Benefic Proc is strange because it gives you a giant heal after using a small one. It would make more sense if using Benefic 2 proc a Critical Benefic so you could save MP in situations where you are struggling to keep the tank alive instead of getting a huge heal during low damage phases that you probably won't need because Benefic was already healing comfortably on it's own.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

The Benefic Proc is strange because it gives you a giant heal after using a small one. It would make more sense if using Benefic 2 proc a Critical Benefic so you could save MP in situations where you are struggling to keep the tank alive instead of getting a huge heal during low damage phases that you probably won't need because Benefic was already healing comfortably on it's own.

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I think this is simply a case of AST copying WHMs kit too literally.
WHM has a Freecure proc so they probably felt the need to give AST the same type of proc, but it just does work the same way. Freecure is good because it's giving you completely free access to a bigger heal. Why not use it? It's free! Benefic II doesn't work that same way. It won't always be MP efficient to throw a Benefic II right after Benefic.

Of course, both Free Cure and Enhanced Benefic both are pretty redundant as you'll almost never be casting Cure/Benefic I.

Benefic proc used to be an instant Benefic II before.
But they changed it to the current one (critical Benefic II) to compensate for his lack of healing power.
This is something that has been asked from the japanese community.

But as things are now, since both sect now give a passive 10% healing, and ast has more option to heal (and doesn't need to burn synastry to get the 20% healing bonus), they could eventually rework that.

As I read back through this thread, I see people talking about lots of huge changes, and honestly, it's not likely to happen. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a job has ever gotten new skills in the middle of an expansion. (The closest thing i can think of is the Berserk/Inner Release change.)

These are job ADJUSTMENTS, not changes.

If I know SE, it's likely going to be changes to potencies, durations, cast/recast times and cooldown durations. So, really, don't get your hopes up too much for "astronomical" changes. It's likely to only be small tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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The proposed change to collective unconsciousness would just be amazing

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Originally Posted by Sebastian5268

As I read back through this thread, I see people talking about lots of huge changes, and honestly, it's not likely to happen. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a job has ever gotten new skills in the middle of an expansion. (The closest thing i can think of is the Berserk/Inner Release change.)

These are job ADJUSTMENTS, not changes.

If I know SE, it's likely going to be changes to potencies, durations, cast/recast times and cooldown durations. So, really, don't get your hopes up too much for "astronomical" changes. It's likely to only be small tweaks.

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It's possible for existing skills to have properties changed to a point where they might as well be treated as new skills entirely (see Shake It Off, 2.1 WAR), or be given 'new' skills like SCH with Miasma II so from that perspective I wouldn't rule it out.

It seems that there will be quite a few changes to the AST. This is from the Reddit discord. It's not everything but it gives an idea.

AST damage cast speed increased
This is MORE on cast speed
Lightspeed mp reduction effect doubled, Aspected Helios buff.

There will be more on the patch notes but I didn't expect that lightspeed buff. The aspecte helios buff will probably have to do with Noct Sect.

The potential to weave abilities after hard casting a Malefic III will be great. A much better buff than giving them a Ruin II equivalent. Seems very promising.

I'm still hoping for Lightspeed to no longer reduce my damage output. Having to manually remove it after some burst AoE Heals to keep DPSing is really annoying.
Being able to spam Gravity for up to 20 seconds is no big deal either - which I believe is the main reason we have that reduction in the first place? It's not like Astrologian's DPS would skyrocket into oblivion from removing that restriction.

An Aspected Helios buff? Neither sect really needs this. Noct Helios already is extremely strong and Diu Helios is stronger than Medica II...

"AST damage cast speed increased"
Ah no ok I understand, if it goes to 1,5 sec, it would be so nice.

It's nice for Lightspeed but I would like more.

Aspected Helios buff is not the right choice if they want to buff noct part.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

An Aspected Helios buff? Neither sect really needs this. Noct Helios already is extremely strong and Diu Helios is stronger than Medica II...

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Diurnal Aspected Helios is actually weaker than Medica II.

Medica II = 200 initial + (50 x 10) ticks = 200 initial + 500 ticks = 700 total potency
Diurnal Aspected Helios = 200*1.05 initial + (40 x 10)*1.05 ticks = 210 initial + 420 ticks = 630 total potency

[edit] Edit for mathematical error on my end.
Medica II = 200 initial + (50 x 10) ticks = 200 initial + 500 ticks = 700 total potency
Diurnal Aspected Helios = 200*1.10 initial + (40 x 10)*1.10 ticks = 220 initial + 440 ticks = 660 total potency
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I do agree that Aspected Helios doesn't really need a buff.

Update :

"SCH - Pet usability adjustments

AST - Attack based spells cast time reduced, Lightspeed MP reduction effect from 25% to 50%, and damage inflict down effect will be removed. Aspected Helios will be buffed."

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Update :

"SCH - Pet usability adjustments

AST - Attack based spells cast time reduced, Lightspeed MP reduction effect from 25% to 50%, and damage inflict down effect will be removed. Aspected Helios will be buffed."

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Whoa, that's a huge change. In conjunction with Celestial Opposition, if you decide to use this with it, you have 20seconds of half MP cost and 100% mobility while DPSing. Or 9-10 casts of half MP Gravity in dungeons.
This should also solve any and all MP issues since Lightspeed will be used more often. Pretty nice all around.


@Ghislain: Yeah you're right, Medica II is stronger on paper. In-game it doesn't feel any weaker at all though aside from it's distance. It's really odd that it's getting a buff, but I guess we'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Diurnal Aspected Helios is actually weaker than Medica II.

Medica II = 200 initial + (50 x 10) ticks = 200 initial + 500 ticks = 700 total potency
Diurnal Aspected Helios = 200*1.05 initial + (40 x 10)*1.05 ticks = 210 initial + 420 ticks = 630 total potency

I do agree that Aspected Helios doesn't really need a buff.

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Hey Ghishlain,

Its 10% more healing from Diurnal (and not only 5%.)

Aspected Helios (Diu.) = 200*1.10 initial + (40 x 10)*1.10 ticks = 220 initial + 440 ticks = 660 total potency

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

Hey Ghishlain,

Its 10% more healing and not only 5%.

Aspected Helios (Diu.) = 200*1.10 initial + (40 x 10)*1.10 ticks = 220 initial + 440 ticks = 660 total potency

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You are correct. I was probably thinking of the 5% reduced cast speed that Diurnal used to have and slotted that in as healing potency randomly. It's still weaker than Medica II though even with that addition.

*Randomly Ninja's Edit previous post*

[edit]

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

@Ghislain: Yeah you're right, Medica II is stronger on paper. In-game it doesn't feel any weaker at all though aside from it's distance. It's really odd that it's getting a buff, but I guess we'll see how it goes.

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I imagine it's because the initial application is technically strong and it's hard to tell the difference between 44 potency and 50 potency. If I recall correctly, the final value of a spell can RNG between +/- 10% which means the tick can have a potency of 40-48 on Diurnal A.Helios while Medica II tick can be 45-55. There's overlap in the 45-48 potency range which may skew an individual's observations.

@AST adjustments - I saw this on Reddit. Take with a grain of salt as it's a singular post until a more official translation hits the table.

It does mimic what Ceasaria is saying.

The buff on Aspected Helios will probably be a cast time reduction or really small potencies fix.

But I belive more that this change is more posible:

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Nocturnal Sect Effect: Erects a magicked barrier which nullifies damage equaling 150% 175% - 200% of the amount of HP restored

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Now a bit Math:

Asp. Helios (Noc) = 150 HP * 1,15 (Heal) + 172,5 HP * 1,75% (Shield) = ~ 475 HP (at all)

Asp. Helios (Noc) = 150 HP * 1,15 (Heal) + 172,5 HP * 2,00% (Shield) = ~ 518 HP (at all)

Look for succor vs Asp. Helios (befor Patch 4.3):

Succor = 150 * 1 (Heal) + 150 * 1,5 (shield) = 375 HP (at all)

Asp. Helios (Noc) = 150 HP * 1,15 (Heal) + 172,5 HP * 1,5% (Shield) = ~ 409 HP (at all)

This finally has a strong contrast of Aspected Helios to Succor. This contrast was lost due to the change of Succor. But if I like this change, that's something in the stars.

This AST buff is going to hurt whm I reckon. They were already lagging behind in rdps :x

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Originally Posted by EaMett

This AST buff is going to hurt whm I reckon. They were already lagging behind in rdps :x

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It's hard to say. The faster cast time is there, but faster cast time doesn't actually do anything unless your GCD lowers to match it. Even if Malefic was lowered to a 2s cast time, the same speed as your benefic/Benefic II IIRC, it won't change anything because your GCD is still 2.5s.
Lightspeed change could be something, as mechanics that you normally need to move for and stop DPSing can just be continuously dps'd through. Overall though, I don't think it'll hurt WHM much as far as raid DPS goes.

Well first off. It'll allow AST to stop clipping their GCD with card mechanics. Over an entire fight that makes a difference.
The ability to drop some piety for crit and dps while moving will also add to AST's personal dps.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Well first off. It'll allow AST to stop clipping their GCD with card mechanics. Over an entire fight that makes a difference.
The ability to drop some piety for crit and dps while moving will also add to AST's personal dps.

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Ah, you're right about that. No more clipping and possibly a lot more mobility even outside of Lightspeed may boost ASTs DPS by quite a bit...
Well, now I'm a little worried lol. I just hope things don't get as bad as Creator's tier.

Assuming that A.Helios is not getting a potency buff, I would say that these changes aren't really stepping on WHMs territory much. AST/SCH is already the more optimal pairing DPS wise, and while ASTs DPS will increase slightly, it still shouldn't be anywhere near the level of WHM or even SCH.

People generally enjoy WHM for it being a powerhouse in progression, as well as being a relatively simple job, so these AST changes aren't going to change that. It's simply making AST a lot less clunkier (hopefully) and giving it a slight boost in pDPS.

I'm happy, I've said two months ago when I've stopped playing "If I come back, I'll play AST, I promise"
Juste playing again since two weeks, and then : AST buff.

What a luck :)

The buff sounds good ofc.

IF Spire doesn't get scummed into something better, I'll be surprised.

Heyho,

There are new Infos from interviews from Yoshida:

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[Astrologian]
Astrologian will have precise adjustments, such as fixing the problem of "draw" biting into your GCDs and solving their MP problems. Overall, their DPS magic spells will have their cast times reduced and they will also adjust the potency and required MP for healing (note:They said aspected helios in the previous live letter).

From: Reddit Link

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More we will see tomorrow =)