New tank ideas (NOT BLU)

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

Evasion tank.

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an evasion tank is a nice idea - but nothing more.

being able to dodge guaranteed is a bit overpowered, plus it makes the healer role redundant.

and when the dodging is not guaranteed, then it's RNG based - the main reason whey parry was so bad. you HAVE to guarantee that you survive that buster. and RNG can't do that.

so what could possibly be done?

they changed the Ninja skill Shade Shift from a guaranteed evasion into a 20% damage reduction. i think this is the route an evasion tank would go. dodge 20% of damage (Rampart), dodge 30% of damage (Vengeance / Shadow Wall), dodge 100% of damage (Hallowed Ground)...

heeello new unique tank ^^/

Shade shift should have stayed how it was to be honest. It's not like the NIN possibly being the last one alive was OP and it was better job flavour.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Shade shift should have stayed how it was to be honest. It's not like the NIN possibly being the last one alive was OP and it was better job flavour.

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I personally would have preferred that it (and Shelltron) auto-dodge (or auto-block) any attack until it's absorbed damage equal to x% eHP (or AP-based potency), so that it wasn't destroyed by insignificant pulses of damage, but could still provide some fun little gimmick damage avoidance (or reliable percentile mitigation).

blue mage would a good evasion tank with use of spells focus increase it evasion ability I could see fire breath be more to draw argo.
your breath fire in cone shape area.

here my view for blue mage blue mage start with zero magic the more it dodge attack it mana pool increase it has spell and ability to increase quickly. unlike dark knight it goal is build it mana pool up.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I personally would have preferred that it (and Shelltron) auto-dodge (or auto-block) any attack until it's absorbed damage equal to x% eHP (or AP-based potency), so that it wasn't destroyed by insignificant pulses of damage, but could still provide some fun little gimmick damage avoidance (or reliable percentile mitigation).

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I wonder what it'd be like if all tanks had some sort of on demand basic mitigation, maybe instead of tank stances.
Paladin with 'block', channeled skill that stops you attacking, drains TP while active, and blocks everything while it's up.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I wonder what it'd be like if all tanks had some sort of on demand basic mitigation, maybe instead of tank stances.
Paladin with 'block', channeled skill that stops you attacking, drains TP while active, and blocks everything while it's up.

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Would depend how well it syncs with the other flow of actions, I'd assume, but many a player here on the forums have been begging for more "active" means of mitigation than just the CDs and stances. Shell, IB, and TBN are about the closest we've come to that so far.

There was a more outlandish GLD/PLD revamp idea I put up a couple years back that attempted as much, though it required a few more undermechanics.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

blue mage would a good evasion tank with use of spells focus increase it evasion ability I could see fire breath be more to draw argo.
your breath fire in cone shape area.

here my view for blue mage blue mage start with zero magic the more it dodge attack it mana pool increase it has spell and ability to increase quickly. unlike dark knight it goal is build it mana pool up.

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That's the million dollar question. With the addition of a new tank, will they expand on the heavy armored roster or will they go for something new? An evasion-based lighter armor category would indeed be something new.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I wonder what it'd be like if all tanks had some sort of on demand basic mitigation, maybe instead of tank stances.
Paladin with 'block', channeled skill that stops you attacking, drains TP while active, and blocks everything while it's up.

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Speaking personally - if PLD had actual reflexive block I'd support it, but it would be trivially easy with how predictable incoming damage is.

It works in BNS because of the combat design, not sure it'd work here in the existing schema.

Beastmaster. Nuff said

War fan and chained scythe user....tank. GNB (Gunbai knight, or something)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d_reConuv...L._SL1500_.jpg

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

War fan and chained scythe user....tank. GNB (Gunbai knight, or something)

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whats the purpose of the chain? neither the scythe nor the fan are looking like something you would throw on the the enemy. usually there is an iron ball at the end of the chain o.ô;

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

War fan and chained scythe user....tank. GNB (Gunbai knight, or something)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d_reConuv...L._SL1500_.jpg

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Cool concept. However, it still loosely falls into the slasher category and we already have 3 slashing tanks.

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Originally Posted by Tint

whats the purpose of the chain? neither the scythe nor the fan are looking like something you would throw on the the enemy. usually there is an iron ball at the end of the chain o.ô;

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It links the weapons together and the scythe can be swung like a morning star to keep enemy at a distance

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

It links the weapons together and the scythe can be swung like a morning star to keep enemy at a distance

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yeah... normally you would use the morning star at the other end of the chain for that ^^ but you replaced it with a fan...

you just took a Kusarigama and replaced the iron ball with a fan, but this concept doesn't make any sense.

Something like gw mesmer, as in you summon temporary clones or pets to tank/buff/attack, your hp might be linked to the clone/pet while tanking.

I rather not have this game be similar to any other mmo when come to it jobs class. I would like have a system of taming pets for beastmaster, not have job where you have complete control of the animal this isn't how animals are tigers for example have mind of their own. I relief to how fantasy and reality is linked

a beast master is job that should in some fashion reflect this I argee that pet AI need work too. progress be made.

fantasy you able to have pet that fight at your side that you gain trust with

reality this animal has it like and dislikes food and area to fight in

Maybe something akin to a cross between Udyr from League and Gau from 6?

Shifting between different animal stances that convey different bonuses, depending on the situation?

Would use Claws, as opposed to the fist weapons used by MNK.

Only way to make Blue Mage work as a tank would it to have pre defined forms/attacks from monsters like, Druid in Warcraft.

Personally i want a new weapon type, like Gunlance.

"But that's from Monster Hu.."

I don't care. It's the best weapon ever conceived by humans.

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Originally Posted by Tint

yeah... normally you would use the morning star at the other end of the chain for that ^^ but you replaced it with a fan...

you just took a Kusarigama and replaced the iron ball with a fan, but this concept doesn't make any sense.

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The fan’s purpose is defensive and would be acting like a shield. Lol and I didn’t make up this concept - it’s taken from Naruto shippuden.

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Originally Posted by Linx0r

The fan’s purpose is defensive and would be acting like a shield. Lol and I didn’t make up this concept - it’s taken from Naruto shippuden.

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Doesn't seem very practical, maybe if they're weren't chained together it would be better.

The gunbai makes a sort of thematic sense though. Apparently they were used by officers to issue orders to troops, which fits with the common perception of the tank as the 'leader' of the party.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Maybe something akin to a cross between Udyr from League and Gau from 6?

Shifting between different animal stances that convey different bonuses, depending on the situation?

Would use Claws, as opposed to the fist weapons used by MNK.

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That's literally monk.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

That's literally monk.

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Also a tank alternative would be Berserker, but we already have that bundled in with Warrior.

just gonna list the tank archetypes (gameplay-identity, not how they actually play) have and don't have, feel free to add since it might inspire some more ideas

what we have as of now:
Pure Defense -PLD
High Health/high damage -WAR
balanced/Magic tank-DRK

What we don't have as of now:
Evasion/parry tank aka controlled RNG tank
Pet Tank
dedicated counter tank
dedicated regeneration/health steal tank
dedicated utility tank
dedicated debuffer tank

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

That's literally monk.

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It'd convey more bonuses as opposed to just the name of the stance, shifting from one to the other for the SOLE purpose of Greased Lightning.

There'd be a REASON to stay in one stance for some time, if that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

It'd convey more bonuses as opposed to just the name of the stance, shifting from one to the other for the SOLE purpose of Greased Lightning.

There'd be a REASON to stay in one stance for some time, if that makes sense.

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I think they're comparing it to Monk because animal themed fighting style + claw weapons are things that belong to Monk's Identity, after all Monks/martial artists in most Final Fantasy games are associated with claw weapons and/or animal themes

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Originally Posted by Rayo

I think they're comparing it to Monk because animal themed fighting style + claw weapons are things that belong to Monk's Identity, after all Monks/martial artists in most Final Fantasy games are associated with claw weapons and/or animal themes

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That's fair. I guess I'm just hoping for more source material from 6 and 9 being used.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

That's fair. I guess I'm just hoping for more source material from 6 and 9 being used.

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to your credit, while I'm not a Lol player, a dedicated stance dancer/multi-stance tank would be an interesting concept

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Doesn't seem very practical, maybe if they're weren't chained together it would be better.

The gunbai makes a sort of thematic sense though. Apparently they were used by officers to issue orders to troops, which fits with the common perception of the tank as the 'leader' of the party.

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Well said . I could do without the chain as well - its just how the model is depicted with the chain. I really would like to see this. It would also bring in the implementation on scythes

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Also a tank alternative would be Berserker, but we already have that bundled in with Warrior.

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And probably for the better, as that allows a wider range of play without the need for specialization (choice moved out of combat and into menus).

If one were to consider customization as a way to increase the breadth of appeal available to a job, then it'd even then really be just a last resort after having maxed out every option by which to increase -- within coherent image -- the breadth of playstyles and aesthetics available to a given class/job.

I just wish Dark Knight more greatly felt like it had its own moments of serious soul-eating, analogous to Warrior's Cleave spam highlights, and Paladin could really make a bigger deal out of its two Oaths (and as more than just a tank stance and a not-tank-stance-with-obligatory-GCD-waste).

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

That's fair. I guess I'm just hoping for more source material from 6 and 9 being used.

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I hear you loud and clear on that.

Every single day I wish my PLD was Beatrix.

Every single day I wake up disappointed.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I hear you loud and clear on that.

Every single day I wish my PLD was Beatrix.

Every single day I wake up disappointed.

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I actually wouldn't mind if they did a cross between Beatrix/Steiner's abilities for the Knight class for melee dps, if they make one, but that's a bit off topic.

Back to my original idea about the stance dancing tank, how would you change it to differentiate from monk? What sort of weapon would it use to keep it in the realm of FF, but still fairly unique?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I hear you loud and clear on that.

Every single day I wish my PLD was Beatrix.

Every single day I wake up disappointed.

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Isn't she more of a Sword Saint though, iirc?

I feel like Paladin has a lot more breadth it could take up while remaining coherent, but her two-hander style seems a bit beyond even that.

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Back to my original idea about the stance dancing tank, how would you change it to differentiate from monk? What sort of weapon would it use to keep it in the realm of FF, but still fairly unique?

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Short of making it some manner of shapeshifter who uses claws only because their animalistic, there's really not much I can easily imagine. We've got at least 3 different sets of claws available as Monk weapons as is, and a slashing animation at such short ranges still wouldn't look all that different from bludgeoning fist attacks. You'd have to milk the bloodthirsty, wild, damn-near-bestial theme for all it's worth in juxtaposition to Monk's calmer and more collected animism to provide a distinct enough aesthetic. I imagine it'd be quite doable, but, just not quite attractive as an upcoming job development choice to be seen at all soonish without giving it further gameplay or lore factors by which to stand out.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Isn't she more of a Sword Saint though, iirc?

I feel like Paladin has a lot more breadth it could take up while remaining coherent, but her two-hander style seems a bit beyond even that.

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For FFIX standards at the time, Bea was pretty much a Paladin (also named Holy Knight in other installments). Okay, her sword skills make her look like a Warrior and she has access mid/high level White Magic. Both combined usually made up the classic Paladin in the older FF games. What about Mystic Knight/Spellblade as tank? (which will prolly make people yell RUNE FENCER WHERE)

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Originally Posted by Darric

For FFIX standards at the time, Bea was pretty much a Paladin (also named Holy Knight in other installments). Okay, her sword skills make her look like a Warrior and she has access mid/high level White Magic. Both combined usually made up the classic Paladin in the older FF games. What about Mystic Knight/Spellblade as tank? (which will prolly make people yell RUNE FENCER WHERE)

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Ahh, I had thought Holy Knight was another localization of Sword Saint / 剣聖. My mistake.

I'm cool with if it being a tank whatever so long as it whatever's made a tank has a core mechanic that simply wouldn't logically work without being a tank and isn't made a tank just to fill out x roster "imbalance". (Adding a lackluster tank for the sake of adding a tank doesn't make any more people play tanks -- for any more than the leveling process at least -- nor is it any more "fair" to tank players...)

...That said, I'd like to see the boundaries between roles vastly reduced anyways through increased depth of manipulation available in universal mechanics such that a job can be an actual job, not a role, at which point we'd be rolling in freedom to really nail job identities, not just as they were but as all they'd make sense to be and could best be enjoyed. /shrug

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

I actually wouldn't mind if they did a cross between Beatrix/Steiner's abilities for the Knight class for melee dps, if they make one, but that's a bit off topic.

Back to my original idea about the stance dancing tank, how would you change it to differentiate from monk? What sort of weapon would it use to keep it in the realm of FF, but still fairly unique?

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Fun fact - Holy Spirits Animation is nearly identical Steiner/Beatrix's Shock spell. Requiescat is basically Lightning Stab (Hallowed Bolt) from FFT that Agrias and other similar jobs use.

As far as your concept goes, I'm not sure. I suppose a Beastmaster concept could work, but I'm not confident that we could differentiate it enough from MNK to matter without offending FF11 idealists. I think maybe pushing MNK more into that theme would be a best fit scenario if they decided to go down that route.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Isn't she more of a Sword Saint though, iirc?

I feel like Paladin has a lot more breadth it could take up while remaining coherent, but her two-hander style seems a bit beyond even that.

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Sword Saint, Paladin, White Knight, Holy Knight, Holy Swordsmen: They're all generally synonymous with each other across the universes.

Her Shock Spell already exists for PLD's. It's the exact same animation as Holy Spirit. Requiescat is identical to Lightning Stab from FFT a skill commonly used by "Holy Knights".

I mean hell, my glamours don't even use a shield :) I'm basically already living out the fantasy!

I've stated this somewhere else before - but if they ever add branching paths to jobs, and some iteration of a true DPS Paladin (i.e. Sword Saint) occurs, I'll be switching. Full time.

I’d be Content with Valkyrie wielding Dual Glaives.

love if they make defender job from FFTA into a new tank, with 1 hand javelin and a real big tower shield not the tiny bucket like PLD, that tank will have huge pond of HP (more than WAR) and work with reflect damage back, their defensive cd instant of reduce damage but will reflect damage back to the target and regain some HP, their super cd equival with holmgang, living dead and hallowed ground will be reverse that will give them 5 second of immune to death and absord all damage then turn them into HP once the skill duration is over

Beatrix seem to me be more Rune knight.

as for beast master be tank I feel that was ffxi thing I like it to be different beast master be dps and give wow hunter a run for it money. have able tame pets and use bond with pets to fight and use whip for combats. middle range melee to short range. I could see beast master use Ninja gear because a whip dex base weapon

I would like blue mage to be a tank job and weild dual scimatars I oculd them use mage dps gear but have effect blue mage different and give it dodge and stuff

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

Beatrix seem to me be more Rune knight.

as for beast master be tank I feel that was ffxi thing I like it to be different beast master be dps and give wow hunter a run for it money. have able tame pets and use bond with pets to fight and use whip for combats. middle range melee to short range. I could see beast master use Ninja gear because a whip dex base weapon

I would like blue mage to be a tank job and weild dual scimatars I oculd them use mage dps gear but have effect blue mage different and give it dodge and stuff

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Since when was BST a tank? It was a solo job. People need to drop the thought about everything either being a tank, a dd, or a healer in FFXI. PLD was the defacto tank, its skills and traits were aimed towards defending, just like DRK was the absolute opposite. Now, even DRK could tank some things (mostly if you had the relic scythe), but so did WHM (due to its amazing magic defense), THF (evasion), RDM, NIN, etc.