Some possibly controversial thoughts about a dancer addition

Any dance a girl can do a guy can do in vice versa this whole thing where girl and boys have different dances is not true, I have seen guys do all kinds of dancing including twerking this screams sexism being sexist to guys.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Your own example of the Sundrop dance answers that. It's based on a traditionally masculine dance, so of course it looks more natural performed by male characters.

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My own example was to stress the problem at the core of the matter and was introduced as a joke, not to be used to support this. I HATE that the women barely move when they perform that dance, which is why I was so happy that they actually move when performing the Moonlift dance. And oh look, they CAN move in the exact same way as the guys, like most of the optional dances in the game. Mog dance, Gold dance, Thavnairian dance - how's that for male charas moving fluidly and dare I say seductively? It already exists in the game.

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if you intend them to look dignified and elegant, you probably shouldn't.

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A highly subjective take which I disagree with you about.

This reminds me of the latest summer event where if I dared enjoy the physique of the male charas in their banana hammocks I frigging lost the quest. Sorry for also being into guys, SE.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Miqote would have tribalistic dances.

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Good god man... Can you imagine all the pretty-dress-me-up fem-Miqotes having a fit over that. CAN YOU IMAGINE!?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

My own example was to stress the problem at the core of the matter and was introduced as a joke, not to be used to support this. I HATE that the women barely move when they perform that dance, which is why I was so happy that they actually move when performing the Moonlift dance.

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It nonetheless is an example in-point. If the OP was concerned about movements that look inappropriate or absurd when performed by one gender or the other, then simply implementing the same skill with multiple animations would be a workable solution.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

To stress the point, if you already acknowledge there's a set of movements that you'd accept for male charas, why not just have that be the unisex movement set instead of insist on what you imagine as a more feminine movement set?

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That would potentially create the same problem in reverse for female characters. I haven't insisted on anything. I was simply pointing out that the OP's concerns could be addressed in a less extreme manner than implementing a whole job for one gender only.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

It nonetheless is an example in-point. If the OP was concerned about movements that look inappropriate or absurd when performed by one gender or the other, then simply implementing the same skill with multiple animations would be a workable solution.

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Movements are gender neutral. And as I said before in my post that you ignored completely, we already have examples where females perform masculine movements while men perform what some might call feminine. What you find to be 'absurd' is highly subjective and if you do find a male Roe performing the near eastern or even far eastern dances to be 'ridiculous' I recommend taking a moment to think about the why of the matter. And if you want to say their size is the matter, ask yourself if you're equally bothered by a fem Roe performing the same moves.

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That would potentially create the same problem in reverse for female characters.

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Because you're thinking in extremes. It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Not every dance has to be the Sundrop.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Most arguments about gender and sex where the word 'natural' is thrown ends up in examples from nature that show humans' views on both concepts is not only subjective for the individual, but also bullocks besides. Tread carefully.
Or let the male Roe dance fancily. It's not illegal.

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Let me put it this way then. I would be pissed if my Lala was attempting to grapple enemies five times its size. It could control a limb, sure, but not the whole body of the opponent; it's physically impossible. Which is why I'm glad the Monk animation, while frequently ridiculous, are at least not imbalanced in that ridiculousness.

Dance is not a contact art, but rather largely free-form and self-contained. Its iteration in game will likely be a mixture of the two, yet I trust that at least the contact will make sense for all sizes and genders, at least to the degree than Monk and Ninja, as fellow small-weapons melee classes, have managed it. But I've no precedent yet on which to base my expectations for the self-contained side of their animations. Thus I am voicing my concerns. I do not pretend to speak for everyone in doing so. If you prefer that male Roegadyns be doing ballet spins as a form of combat, then that is of course your opinion to hold. Mine simply happens to run contrary to it.

And while, again, I don't pretend to speak for everyone, there is at least a consistent cultural basis for a shift in what is seen as beautiful, impactful, or inspiring between large- and small-bodied dancers, of what seems "natural" to it. These things do not occur almost universally for thousands of years of a given artform with absolutely no basis or commonality of taste. Yes, it's subjective. But a survey of opinion, with its every point tallied subjective, is still a sample size approximating objective data: to what portion or extend is the given thought... thought? What portion of historical gender divisions, including how beauty is perceived therebetween, may be tautological is irrelevant; we're talking about a traditionally-derived job, in a setting that has its own gender conventions, and comes from a franchise with certain gender conventions woven through its length. It will adhere to them. To attempt to dismiss any and all precedents that may seem spurious to you on the basis that they are merely "human" systems -- What, is there a lively Chimpanzee discussion on 16th Century French Rivera Waltzes? -- or subjective -- As is any "good" book or film, mind you -- is a far more slippery slope than of what you're cautioning me.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Or. OR. You can just have all genders use the same dance animations. To stress the point, if you already acknowledge there's a set of movements that you'd accept for male charas, why not just have that be the unisex movement set instead of insist on what you imagine as a more feminine movement set? Boom, one movement set for everyone without even getting people complaining the male Roes know how to spin around themselves.

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Or, or... if in the eyes of the vast majority of players the animation looks right for all sizes and genders, then save development costs and use it accordingly, and if it doesn't, then don't? Or, heavens forbid, maybe actually work some of the game lore into what we actually see in playable content or in-combat, instead of it relegating almost solely it to cutscenes and in-game books? Would it really hurt that much if we got to see a bit more of the Sea Wolf or Hellsguard cultures by having something unique to those, or Keepers of the Moon culture in dances unique to them? I'm all for discussing cost-to-output of development costs, but let's not pretend that strictly unisex animations are anything but a limitation.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Because you're thinking in extremes. It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Not every dance has to be the Sundrop.

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Now that I'll wholly agree with.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Movements are gender neutral. And as I said before in my post that you ignored completely, we already have examples where females perform masculine movements while men perform what some might call feminine. What you find to be 'absurd' is highly subjective and if you do find a male Roe performing the near eastern or even far eastern dances to be 'ridiculous' I recommend taking a moment to think about the why of the matter. And if you want to say their size is the matter, ask yourself if you're equally bothered by a fem Roe performing the same moves.



Because you're thinking in extremes. It's not a binary switch, it's a scale. Not every dance has to be the Sundrop.

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Not every dance has to be exactly the same either (and indeed, we also have examples where the movements are not the same). You're right that absurdity is subjective, but the perspective that matters is that of SE. Considering their track record, how would you imagine they would regard the matter?

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

a lot of us would like to break the holy trinity that this game has

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You know there are thousand games out of there that do not have the 'holy trinity'. Don't make this game in a GW2 or BDO combat clone.
RIFT, WoW & XIV are the only games left that have it, so please let it stay in this game. The Holy Trinity in this game was one of the facts why I decided to play this.

And RIFT is a fail game the day they changed from sub to F2P so in my case only 2 MMO's that I would play are left with it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm all for discussing cost-to-output of development costs, but let's not pretend that strictly unisex animations are anything but a limitation.

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You're mixing up racial differences and gender differences. An Elezen that comes from the Shroud will naturally differ in culture from any Lalafell, and likely differ from other Elezen depending on Wildwood vs. Duskwight. That said, unless they make it all about your chara taking their culture and incorporating it into the job, I don't see room for it in the DNC job. All jobs so far, while allowing you to integrate renovations (DRG comes to mind) were largely about tapping into the abilities and skills already existing within your Soul Crystal and abiding by your mentor chara's route. That leaves not as much room for racial differences, and again I should hope they won't go overboard with the differences based on gender. Because let's face it, going by this game's track record it's almost certain that male charas will get shafted, and I just don't trust them to pull a BRD again

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Not every dance has to be exactly the same either (and indeed, we also have examples where the movements are not the same). You're right that absurdity is subjective, but the perspective that matters is that of SE. Considering their track record, how would you imagine they would regard the matter?

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SE would scrap male charas from the game if not for the PR backlash.

I don't get how it's easier to grasp that lalas can tank primals or do anything physical-combat related on same level as roes and other races but somehow male dancers is so hard to imagine... ? what... lol

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Realistically - and lets assume that Dancer is greenlit - it would have to be another AST clone as a WHM + dances or a SCH + dances would make those jobs obsolete.

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No, it really wouldn't, unless XIV is deadset on purposely exhausting all avenues of meaningful variance in design in as few steps as possible by chopping out the vast, vast majority of what otherwise would have been possible.

We've probably only a couple expansions left by which such stringent avoidance of what falls outside their existing systems can finagle x or y gimmicks of difference and get away with labeling the whole job as something unique. And why even do that? Why purposely deepen a rutt that will almost certainly taper off to an early end? Almost any excuse they can take to step outside their own formula will be a benefit to them at this point, so long as they can maintain cohesion while finally expanding their vision. What would it take for a Dancer to really work as hoped, and how much of that would be beneficial even in its own right? That's what I hope development might start looking over before precedent-as-restriction escalates exponentially further.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, it really wouldn't, unless XIV is deadset on purposely exhausting all avenues of meaningful variance in design in as few steps as possible by chopping out the vast, vast majority of what otherwise would have been possible.We've probably only a couple expansions left by which such stringent avoidance of what falls outside their existing systems can finagle x or y gimmicks of difference and get away with labeling the whole job as something unique. And why even do that? Why purposely deepen a rutt that will almost certainly taper off to an early end? Almost any excuse they can take to step outside their own formula will be a benefit to them at this point, so long as they can maintain cohesion while finally expanding their vision. What would it take for a Dancer to really work as hoped, and how much of that would be beneficial even in its own right? That's what I hope development might start looking over before precedent-as-restriction escalates exponentially further.

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Because making a new job is not the same as overhauling an entire system. MMOs are a constant balancing act - I remember reading years ago a quote that went along the lines of; 'Maintaining balance in an MMO is like trying to remove air bubbles from wallpaper - as soon as you've smoothed one another pops up'. [I paraphrase - i can't remember who said that, some developer].
If you create an entirely new job that has either a unique role, move set or works entirely outside of the status-quo you are going to have to overhaul everything.
I'm not saying the won't/can't do it - just that it is highly-unlikely and would be a pretty crazy amount of work for very little payback. Also you say 'unique' i see 'mandatory' or 'useless'.
They would be better off employing new ideas/systems for FFXVI and beyond.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

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Haha I KNEW this discussion would end down this path - i.e. talking about alleged sexism. It always happens.

Look, personally I understand all the gender equality thing and all that stuff - and while I do agree that the gender-binary culture that humanity developed in the past millennia or so is intrinsic to humanity, it is nonetheless natural for humans, at least at this point of time and space.

"Then why shouldn't we fight to change it?" you may ask - and indeed you can - but I fear this battle shall not be won on this battlefield, a Japanese MMO. This is not the place to fight that battle. This is a game made by a company who needs to make money. In addition to that, it is a Japanese company. I am sure you understand what this means.

Come on. We have Catgirls. Dragongirls. Idols. Maid outfits. Miqo'te dancers in Ul'dah and Miqo'te prostitutes in Costa del Sol. This game SCREAMS fan service albeit not in a TERA or Blade & Soul way - as I said earlier, fan service here is for a more refined palate. Yet, it is fan service nonetheless.

This being said, SE will NEVER develop a job and gate it behind a gender. That makes zero sense and will break the armory system. As for dances, we can't know - but my 2 cents is that they WILL have different (maybe only slightly) movements whether you are male or female, and a falafel or a roe, as as you mentioned for the Sundrop Dance, there are precedents.

I still believe that a Chemist is more likely to happen, tho.

Lel, the way this thread has gone too.

*grabs popcorn*

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

In addition to that, it is a Japanese company. I am sure you understand what this means.

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We have banana hammocks, the Coliseum Gear, Haurchefant sending you gear to Mor Dhona to, based on the translation I read, accent your muscles. Yeah sounds like a Japanese game alright.

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it is fan service nonetheless.

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I'm not saying don't fanservice. I'm saying equal fanservice. I kind of doubt anyone'd unsub over a male roe DNC with the same moves as a fem Au Ra. Could be wrong tho.

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This being said, SE will NEVER develop a job and gate it behind a gender.

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Ya, goes against the lore of the series too. And seeing how they were originally really stressed about giving us another rank of materia because of the series' naming convention, I don't see this as being really cause for worry. So long as my male Dancers aren't too behind the ladies in movement, at least... though depending on the dance, ala the Sundrop dance, I might be on the winning side here with my male main lmao

Man, I will shake my giant hips til the end of time, and love every minute of it.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

All jobs so far, while allowing you to integrate renovations (DRG comes to mind) were largely about tapping into the abilities and skills already existing within your Soul Crystal and abiding by your mentor chara's route. That leaves not as much room for racial differences, and again I should hope they won't go overboard with the differences based on gender.

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Well, from a lore perspective, the job crystals (MCH excepted) all talk about the "myriad deeds of <job>s from ages past", so your dancer crystal would presumably have been owned by many dancers before you and thus contain a wide range of dance motions.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Because let's face it, going by this game's track record it's almost certain that male charas will get shafted, and I just don't trust them to pull a BRD again

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That's a genuine concern, but it's a separate issue from merely having different motions. Neither gender deserves to get animations of lesser quality, nor to have motions intended exclusively for the other one shoehorned into its animation set.

I don't see a problem. It is true that somethings are weird in some race/genre, but it is nothing important. Astrologian sets and animations are very... "girly" that's how call it (it is just a cultural thing to be real), but nothing stops a male from play it; or a male roe as ninja looks slow and heavy, but it works, so why not?

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/55...videotogif.gif

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Pingosteel

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/55...videotogif.gif

You're welcome.

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*scrambles for bleach*

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Originally Posted by Pingosteel

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/55...videotogif.gif

You're welcome.

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I mean, if I had a chest that looked that good, I'd show it off too.

Gender-locked jobs/classes/roles should be a thing of the past. That system is archaic as all hell. Anyone that has a problem with a male Roe dancing should just avert their eyes instead of asking for a part of the game to be locked away from them (much like the vast, expanding library of exclusive female glamours and the ever elusive bunny outfit :rolleyes:).

That's all that really needs to be said.

http://images.mmosite.com/photo/2007...0rh4of83Ci.jpg
Who wouldn't love this??!

But yeah, the actual AF and dance moves didn't look that bad on the guys:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20110417153616
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/...20081002042529

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Originally Posted by Pingosteel

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/55...videotogif.gif

You're welcome.

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https://media1.giphy.com/media/l2Jhx...M1zO/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

*scrambles for bleach*

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It's too late. It's in your head. Permanently!

Enjoy the fabulous dance of my people /hula

The only real reason I'm hesitant on dancers is that I'm afraid SE will put them in nothing but beautiful dresses that are just poorly repurposed for males. FFXI literally couldn't do dresses, and now I feel like it's exceptionally rare not to get one as a healer.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

It's too late. It's in your head. Permanently!

Enjoy the fabulous dance of my people /hula

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*furious au ra scream yell/rant/play dead/twitch*

Ok in all seriousness its not that bad..at least its not Speedo Roe Warrior. :)

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I mean, if I had a chest that looked that good, I'd show it off too.

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Don't let your dreams be dreams.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

The only real reason I'm hesitant on dancers is that I'm afraid SE will put them in nothing but beautiful dresses that are just poorly repurposed for males. FFXI literally couldn't do dresses, and now I feel like it's exceptionally rare not to get one as a healer.

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You mean like AST AF2? xD

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

at least its not Speedo Roe Warrior. :)

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Maybe someone will say challenge accepted to this.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Maybe someone will say challenge accepted to this.

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I wasn't kidding...I really did see a Warrior Roe in a speedo do Kugane castle....I'd rather not see that become a thing now. :)

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

Worked fine in XI so i don't see the issue in a potential addition in XIV?

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There was no social justice warriors at the time of FF11, but now....

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

*furious au ra scream yell/rant/play dead/twitch*

Ok in all seriousness its not that bad..at least its not Speedo Roe Warrior. :)

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https://puu.sh/woFQK/3584fcd0cb.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tridus

https://puu.sh/woFQK/3584fcd0cb.jpg

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PFFTHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh that's classic..I needed that.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I wasn't kidding...I really did see a Warrior Roe in a speedo do Kugane castle....I'd rather not see that become a thing now. :)

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How sheltered is your gaming experience compared to mine. Then again I'm on Balmung.

Highly relevant:

https://media.giphy.com/media/5oKGAIJTaLCZq/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

*furious au ra scream yell/rant/play dead/twitch*

Ok in all seriousness its not that bad..at least its not Speedo Roe Warrior. :)

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http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/169393ff149.jpg

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/177748ff1410.jpg

You wish for it

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

*furious au ra scream yell/rant/play dead/twitch*

Ok in all seriousness its not that bad..at least its not Speedo Roe Warrior. :)

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We need more of it.

In fact, we need more Roes like the "luscious oils" Roe. >;3

https://i.imgur.com/1P2XqeZ.png

Sorry, @OP for your thread turning into a lewd "Show your Roe" counterpart, but you pretty much asked for it once you mentioned booty shaking male Roes, lol.

I love the idea of the support role... dancer and bard, green mage, time mage...

Why have jobs whose abilities are dependent on what you play as?

1) The 'dances' we are talking about here have an effect. The effect is the same regardless of race or gender of who uses it. It should use the same dance regardless of who uses it. Or are you telling me that teachers in school where I live always teach to add acid to water, not water to acid, because we have the culture that we have, and in Asia for example it is the other way around?! Stupid, right?! Want the same effect, use the same method.
2) Making race-based dances for the class would mean six or twelve animations for the job. That's six or twelve full sets of animations! And every player could use only ONE out of all those animation sets, meaning that every spent dime is worth LESS than what is spent on other animations. That is absurd, and unless it would have a VERY important story factor to it (which it does not), it's just plain illogical.
3) Why limit au ra ritual dances to the actual Au Ra? Can Elezen not try them? What, are Elezen, Hyur etc. mentally handicapped to not be able to understand the moves, or physically crippled to not be able to repeat them? Surprisingly we could easily learn Moogle or Vanu dances...so yeah, that's not the case. I am 100% in support of adding culture-based dances to the game...but do so as EMOTES (or as a part of perform for a dancer that will not have mechanical effects) that can be learned through quests like harvest dance. This will also let developers add actual lore to those dances, instead of just having them slapped onto the characters set and "guess what it means" games would begin...That would mean that the only change needed would be a bit of quest text where a Miqo'te gets "Did you forget how to do it? Here, I'm sure your body will remember once I'll show you!" when learning her own racial dance, while others would "Here, pay attention to how I dance and get the sense for it, then repeat it yourself!"...or some such. Though that's not even necessary, since the character doesn't necessarily even have to know their own cultures dances. This way ALL characters will be able to use ALL the emotes, and a lot more lore will be included alongside them.


Ultimately, those that vote for race-specific dances talk about LIMITING players options AND less lore...

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

Realistically - and lets assume that Dancer is greenlit - it would have to be another AST clone as a WHM + dances or a SCH + dances would make those jobs obsolete.

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Nonsense. Samurai and Red Mage did not make any other DPS obsolete, while their job is ONLY about dealing damage. For healers, as many people wanting a dancer want (not all though, but it's what you talk about too), there is damage AND healing to boot. Two things each of which could be made differently (or both) to make a fresh class. It's also a constant balancing act...but that is regardless of everything. It is constant whether you add a class or not, and it is the same amount of work regardless of how different or similar the game styles of classes are.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

If a lala can be a tank, a roe can be a dancer. Also, maybe some people like the idea of a big roe booty shaking it in the dungeon...

As for clothing, yeah males are going to get the short end of the stick there.

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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...89/710/6f1.png
sorry i couldn't resist adding that

Restricting jobs by gender? Hell naw.

The game already allows anyone to dress skimpy, and there are a lot of... dunno the word, 'delicate' emotes. Let people do their thing.