[BLM Suggestion] Raise spell using Foul stack.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I don't see Summoner losing their potencies for having raise.

And my point wasn't about raise. It was about solving the inherent issue of Black Mage being GCD locked.

Also you're over exaggerating.

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Why is Black Mage being GCD locked an issue in the first place? Unless someone wildly misuses their resource recovery skills -- after or near a death, at that -- every job in this game is GCD locked.

To put it another way, though, I really don't want what amounts to proper pet casting (your suggested unique simultaneous casting) as BLM's gimmick. It doesn't seem in any way more fun, specifically avoids the decision-making faced even by oGCDs, and if anyone deserves that, it ought to be the jobs specifically made clunky from the lack of it... i.e. the pet classes.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why is Black Mage being GCD locked an issue in the first place? Unless someone wildly misuses their resource recovery skills -- after or near a death, at that -- every job in this game is GCD locked.

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Objectively wrong that other classes have the same lock.

Look at any other DPS in Stormblood right now. Red Mage, Monk, Machinist, Samurai, and ESPECIALLY Bard, Summoner, Ninja and Dragoon. Each of the classes I have listed have a reliance on oGCD damage as part of their rotations, though Bard (through Repertoire), Dragoon (for their Life of the Dragon), Summoner (for their Aethertrail), and Ninja (do I really need to explain Ninja?) DEPEND on their oGCDs.

That said, I don't actually have a problem with being stuck on the GCD. Quite contrary, I'd rather Black Mage keeps that identity, but continue to expand on it.

That said, regarding Kabooa's points toward me.

A.) Citing old numbers is nothing but valid. This was a place Black Mage was before it was firmly decided to be pure DPS in HW, considering we had a handful of garbage support spells (Freeze, Sleep, Ennervate) and a decent defensive raid support (Apocatastasis). These skills remained in HW, but were massively de-emphasized by our new mechanics and rotation. Not to mention, YoshiP has specifially cited Raise as the reason would be lower damage than any other Caster. Summoner has a massive skill ceiling, but its skill floor is so high that to the average player, its DPS is damn low.

also on a possibly related note, did you not notice a massive series of nerfs to Summoner? Their dot game is technically unchanged, but Ruin III was nerfed all the way down to 130 after in HW being 200. This coincided with Aetherpact and the decision to make the final numbers for Red Mage so low.

B.) Black Mage's options need to consider its GCD lock, and be built to compliment that, not circumvent it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why is Black Mage being GCD locked an issue in the first place? Unless someone wildly misuses their resource recovery skills -- after or near a death, at that -- every job in this game is GCD locked.

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I should have clarified: The inherent problem of animation lock delaying Cast Time GCDs.

Paladins get around this by having 1.5 casts on 2.5 GCDs
Every weaponskill class gets around this by weaponskills being instant
Red mage gets around this by dualcast
Summoner has Ruin2/Ruin 4
Every healer has an instant cast appropriate heal/damage spell

Black Mage relies on -procs- or phase transitions. Neither of which can be done on demand without in some way hurting you, either through a badly timed Sharpcast/Swift, or cutting a phase early.

BLM does have an insta-cast in the form of Scathe, which is essentially their Ruin II. Not to mention having access to Swift and Triple cast, potentially giving BLM four insta-cast spells in a row. With that and the other possible processes, BLM does actually have quite a few opportunities to get around animation lock, but it could do with a slight tweak.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

That said, regarding Kabooa's points toward me.
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B.) Black Mage's options need to consider its GCD lock, and be built to compliment that, not circumvent it.

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Which were not related to Raise. They were related to the massive Potency dump that is Bahamut, while maintaining the other massive steroid that is Dreadwyrm Trance. Ruin 3 might have dumped from 200, but it also wasn't used on every cast. It was utilized to dump MP outside Dreadwyrm and used within it.

The data we have shows Summoner doing better the lower percentile we go, so clearly it's not a cut-and-dried "Bad Blackmages are better than Bad summoners". Skill floor tanks pretty evenly on both.

If there's a choice between doing anything for the party and casting Fire 4, I'm going to cast Fire 4. Having our options based on GCD just means they will not get used outside very specific instances in UI.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

BLM does have an insta-cast in the form of Scathe, which is essentially their Ruin II. Not to mention having access to Swift and Triple cast, potentially giving BLM four insta-cast spells in a row. With that and the other possible processes, BLM does actually have quite a few opportunities to get around animation lock, but it could do with a slight tweak.

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Scathe is worthless.

Swift, Triple, and Sharpcast are our uptime skills. Using them to throw up an addle is frankly worse than just taking the .5 lock to apply it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Which were not related to Raise. They were related to the massive Potency dump that is Bahamut, while maintaining the other massive steroid that is Dreadwyrm Trance. Ruin 3 might have dumped from 200, but it also wasn't used on every cast. It was utilized to dump MP outside Dreadwyrm and used within it.

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I used Ruin III as a specific example (and Ruin III had been reduced to 150 from 200 back in 4.0 until it was reworked into its 130 potency form), but Summoners already had Dreadwyrm Trance prior to SB. Bahamut is MAYBE the source, but Summoner also got more directly support related effects on their pets and Devotion. And again, YoshiP did state that the reason Red Mage was so low in its damage was due to its damage.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The data we have shows Summoner doing better the lower percentile we go, so clearly it's not a cut-and-dried "Bad Blackmages are better than Bad summoners". Skill floor tanks pretty evenly on both.

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Depends on the variety of "bad" we're talking. If the Black Mage doesn't know how to dodge, then certainly they're going to do bad. If the Summoner doesn't know how to properly weave their spells, then they're going to do bad. They're different varieties of difficulties, but Black Mage's is more of a "breaking tunnel vision" than a hard rotation whereas Summoner just has a higher skill floor rotation but can easily keep their awareness.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If there's a choice between doing anything for the party and casting Fire 4, I'm going to cast Fire 4. Having our options based on GCD just means they will not get used outside very specific instances in UI.

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Right, which is why we would link support effects to our spells which we're already casting than to add new oGCDs or GCDs to do that with.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Right, which is why we would link support effects to our spells which we're already casting than to add new oGCDs or GCDs to do that with.

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Wouldn't that be grand.

"Party buster incoming"

"I'm in Fire phase, that's a damn shame."

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Wouldn't that be grand.

"Party buster incoming"

"I'm in Fire phase, that's a damn shame."

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"...wait, why am I the one who's responsible? Don't we have a Paladin, a Warrior, a Scholar and a White Mage?"

Either way, support effects are still pretty unlikely in my opinion, no matter how they do it. Let the Black Mage explode things, tbh.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Perhaps they are worthless, but to declare otherwise that BLM has no real insta-casts is a lie which was my point. Scathe is no different to Ruin II, the only difference being the latter has the change to process, in which case Scathe could do with something similar to make it more use worthy.

It's easy to say something is part of uptime skills, but unless the BLM is very lucky and doesn't get targeted by anything and it's quite likely their rotation could go out of the window. You may have little point at that stage to Swift or Triplecast your spells (use Scathe and other processes) to keep up the attacks whilst dodging to the mechs.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Perhaps they are worthless, but to declare otherwise that BLM has no real insta-casts is a lie which was my point. Scathe is no different to Ruin II, the only difference being the latter has the change to process, in which case Scathe could do with something similar to make it more use worthy.

It's easy to say something is part of uptime skills, but unless the BLM is very lucky and doesn't get targeted by anything and it's quite likely their rotation could go out of the window. You may have little point at that stage to Swift or Triplecast your spells (use Scathe and other processes) to keep up the attacks whilst dodging to the mechs.

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I don't think anyone was implying BLM lacked INSTANT casts, what most people were explaining was that BLM is stuck on the GCD. You know, the recast time of 2.5s, which changes depending on speed?

This feels like a slight distraction from the points being brought up about the BLM's reliance on the GCD. And you're probably not playing BLM the best you can if you're rotation is screwing up.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Objectively wrong that other classes have the same lock.

Look at any other DPS in Stormblood right now. Red Mage, Monk, Machinist, Samurai, and ESPECIALLY Bard, Summoner, Ninja and Dragoon. Each of the classes I have listed have a reliance on oGCD damage as part of their rotations, though Bard (through Repertoire), Dragoon (for their Life of the Dragon), Summoner (for their Aethertrail), and Ninja (do I really need to explain Ninja?) DEPEND on their oGCDs.

That said, I don't actually have a problem with being stuck on the GCD. Quite contrary, I'd rather Black Mage keeps that identity, but continue to expand on it.

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I failed to realize you were defining the term uniquely. In every MMO I've played prior, and indeed any forum entry or guide making mention of it, it has consistently referred to any class, spec, playstyle (therein) for which there is never a GCD that cannot be filled with some GCD skill, or for which any failure to hit a GCD as soon as it's available will (almost) necessarily be a DPS loss (i.e. any class without inherent downtime). A large portion of WoW's specs, for instance, have in the past not been GCD locked, while certain talents make traditionally GCD-locked classes no longer GCD locked (by removing the filler skills from between their short-CD attacks). By the typical definition, every XIV class is technically GCD-locked.

At the moment all that BLM being GCD locked limited solely to GCD sources of direct damage contributes is two things:

• Reduced downtime-generatable power -- i.e. potency being providable or made ready by time simply having elapsed, regardless of actions during (any CD ever). (Though, Foul gives back a hefty chunk of this.)
• Full use of Spell Speed. No other job in this game can benefit fully from Skill/Spell Speed, as it does not affect oGCD damage, thus making it partly inherently inferior to all other stats.

The benefits there quite possibly outweigh the disbenefits, especially given the aforementioned Foul and the simple fact that while BLM may not have direct-damaging oGCDs, their buffing or indirect-damage CDs are still quite potent, and the job does have the highest dummy DPS in the game.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

That said, I don't actually have a problem with being stuck on the GCD. Quite contrary, I'd rather Black Mage keeps that identity, but continue to expand on it.

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Okay. Fair enough. Any suggestions how?

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Citing old numbers is nothing but valid. This was a place Black Mage was before it was firmly decided to be pure DPS in HW, considering we had a handful of garbage support spells (Freeze, Sleep, Ennervate) and a decent defensive raid support (Apocatastasis). These skills remained in HW, but were massively de-emphasized by our new mechanics and rotation. Not to mention, YoshiP has specifially cited Raise as the reason would be lower damage than any other Caster. Summoner has a massive skill ceiling, but its skill floor is so high that to the average player, its DPS is damn low.

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Well, that's strange.

In today's settings, at least, it's perhaps the most consistent leading job in terms of pDPS, and a top contender in rDPS, with or without Raise being considered.
I guess I'll have to take Yoshida's quote there with the same barrel of salt as usual...

depending on how the raise is set up it could work in to power scale. like bringsback on brink of death and maybe is an ogcd that is instant but with a 90 second cool down so it cant be stacked with triple cast or swift cast ads a small amount of utility without sacrificing power or yeah have it use polyglot

if Blm get raise, and we have to start rezing as blm, ill go nuts...

it doesnt hurt Smn much, since it's bulk of dps are dots and pet...,

and doesn't hurt Rdm too much either, since it is full of instant casts .. and does not rely on 2x timers that can not run out like Blm (astral and enochian timers)

sure, it still hurts Smn and Rdm..but would hurt blm too much.., just give Blm a magic vun, if Blm desperately need party utility (imo on thunder dots, that way, no need to track an extra timer)

dont like idea if wasting a foul for a raise, if anything when Blm raise, they should get rewarded with a foul :D

No to BLM raise, for no other reason than the fact that this dissolves class identity entirely. BLM is the destructive offensive mage and should always be as such.

I wouldn't mind a loss in DPS in exchange for some utility, but just not raise or healing. RDM is half black half white magic, and summoner's share their origins with Scholars so it makes some sense for them both to have raise.

Some sort of magic vulnerability debuff would match the class identity nicely, though it would make the over-abundant caster DPS situation even worse than it already is now. I'd still take it, though, provided there was no net gain on BLM DPS. We are already insanely powerful for little effort.

There is literally zero reason for a BLM to have a raise.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

BLM does have an insta-cast in the form of Scathe, which is essentially their Ruin II. Not to mention having access to Swift and Triple cast, potentially giving BLM four insta-cast spells in a row. With that and the other possible processes, BLM does actually have quite a few opportunities to get around animation lock, but it could do with a slight tweak.

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Did you really cite Scathe? Not even CLOSE to equivalent to Ruin 2. Case and point:

Ruin 1 - 100 pot
Ruin 2 - 100 pot
Ruin 3 - 130 pot

so you lose 30 potency from downgrading for an instant cast.

Fire 4 - 504 pot
Fire 1 - 324 pot
Blizz 4 - 280 pot
Scathe - 100 pot....

so at minimum, you're losing 180 potency for casting Scathe at any given time. I didn't include Thunder because you might refresh earlier/later so exact potency is hard to gauge perfectly, but it's a loss I assure you. No one is using Scathe unless they are absolutely desperate.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

so at minimum, you're losing 180 potency for casting Scathe at any given time. I didn't include Thunder because you might refresh earlier/later so exact potency is hard to gauge perfectly, but it's a loss I assure you. No one is using Scathe unless they are absolutely desperate.

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Correction. No one is using Scathe instead of another skill, a lot of ppl myself included is using it when nothing else is available (because of movement) afterall 100 potency is better than 0.

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Originally Posted by Thela

Correction. No one is using Scathe instead of another skill, a lot of ppl myself included is using it when nothing else is available (because of movement) afterall 100 potency is better than 0.

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A crit is going to swing your DPS more than the once or twice a fight you use scathe.

Scathe is good when the boss is about to force long downtime though. That's all the spell had been used for since ARR. And its a good niche for it to fullfill. Sometimes I miss RDM having something alike on similar situations where I could squeeze an instant GCD but had just used a Dualcast.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Scathe is good when the boss is about to force long downtime though. That's all the spell had been used for since ARR. And its a good niche for it to fullfill. Sometimes I miss RDM having something alike on similar situations where I could squeeze an instant GCD but had just used a Dualcast.

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I would 100% try and get greedy for another F4 than bother settling for Scathe.

Then your cast gets canceled and you get nothing at the end. Of course I'm not saying mindlessly scathe, know the the exact timer at the boss jump and do both the F4 and the Scathe instead of and F4 and a cancelled F4. Ideally using TC or FS instead of Scathe.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Then your cast gets canceled and you get nothing at the end. Of course I'm not saying mindlessly scathe, know the the exact timer at the boss jump and do both the F4 and the Scathe instead of and F4 and a cancelled F4. Ideally using TC or FS instead of Scathe.

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That scathe will add so little to your dps that you would be hard pressed to notice it. And if you're having to fall back to Scathe when moving, it means you didn't prepare enough or wasted your Swift/Sharp/Triple Cast. Somewhat useful during progression? sure. But even if you use 5 scathes throughout a fight, it's unlikely to be the difference between the boss dying and not. And honestly, if you used Scathe that many times, you were doing something wrong.

EDIT: And I forgot slidecasting. Slidecasting is also a way to move without Scathe that's monumentally more efficient.

So you're saying it isn't worth it because the DPS gain is small. Yeah I guess all that sub stat optimization people do is just as whorthless then. Also this is for when the boss jumps or forces downtime. You shouldn't generally scathe in movement because of its MP cost. And nah Scathe rarely gets used more than twice. TL;DR: My argument was that Scathe does fill a niche even though it's a bad skill in general. Removing or merging it with Foul wouldn't make sense. In case you didn't get what I meant.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

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I agree merging it with Foul is dumb. But generally, yes, min maxing sub stats is worth very little. My point was that Scathe is awful in any situation. Even when the boss jumps, I doubt you would even notice a difference in your dps from 1 fight where you did it to another where you didn't. A single crit causes more fluctuation in your DPS than a single Scathe. At the end of the day, Scathe needs a rework. It could be completely removed and not impact Black Mage dps even a little bit.

Someone made a good case for Scathe being used against low level mobs for quick kills, which is valid enough, but taking the extra time to stop and cast a spell, which is only slower because of the stopping bit, isn't going to slow you down much.

We're going about this all wrong. Instead of raising party members, blm instead needs to gain a 50% dps increase for 10 seconds when somebody dies as a passive by leeching off of their souls. Still remains selfish dps, and compensates for lack of raid damage for a duration that the person who died should be rezzed. problem solved.

(inb4 organized suicides become required for blm parse padding)

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

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you know all those times you finish a cast on a mob that needs to die and after your f4 it just has about 1% left? like maybe airplanes in o7s, or the ghost on o5s. it works as a quick slap to finish the job instantly when you know you otherwise would have needed to spent time casting, or use a cd.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

you know all those times you finish a cast on a mob that needs to die and after your f4 it just has about 1% left? like maybe airplanes in o7s, or the ghost on o5s. it works as a quick slap to finish the job instantly when you know you otherwise would have needed to spent time casting, or use a cd.

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GCD''s a GCD. By the time you register you can scathe this, you're going to finish that Fire X.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

GCD''s a GCD. By the time you register you can scathe this, you're going to finish that Fire X.

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It's a gcd you can be moving with, and it's instant so you can use it as a window to use an ogcd without clip. It's still niche, but it's a good purpose.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

It's a gcd you can be moving with, and it's instant so you can use it as a window to use an ogcd without clip. It's still niche, but it's a good purpose.

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You don't know something's going to be in scathe range until well after a cast has already started. Better to just finish whatever you started and AM on over to where you want to be. The difference is negligible outside a great many uses, and if you're using Scathe a great many times, you aren't gaining any advantage from it.

Scathe is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Either way, I'm not opposed to spells that are useful outside of raiding but not in raiding. That's like a wizard complaining cantrips aren't as good as other spells. Of course they aren't, it's for messing around. Enjoy the pleasures of pew pewing lvl 50 dungeons, or forcing a large swarm of monsters into nap time, or even just getting clutch b2 roots off after a bad tank dies in a dungeon to buy the healer time to rez.

Freeze is the only less useful spell I could really see modifying (because it's purpose is clearly to actually be long casted aoe damage and nothing else). Make it grant 1 umbral heart for double flare, and it'd be fixed pretty much.

Idk how scathe could even be properly fixed to become "useful" unless it became some weird low cd ogcd to weave between instant cast procs. But then our potencies would be adjusted and your dps output would become more proc reliant... that doesn't sound fun.

The reason behind my original idea to have raise on BLM is that I now see more new static recruitments lock out BLM from caster slots and I feel a bit sad every time I see that. I know people will say 'then you do not want to be in there anyway' but is that really ok?

I mean I did not see SAM got blocked in PF as much as BLM. I think the reason is that because in people's mind, casters = raise = good for progression. But BLM is one I feel most fun to play with XD So if anything will get people to want BLM as much as other casters then I will be happy! (More damage is not so much a good reason because counting the party buffs I think SMN still contributes similarly to BLM.)

Although tbh even if they buff BLM by let's say 5% more the lockouts will still occur...

Well I approve of the idea. Would be nice to have an alternative use to the Foul meter. Also not sure if it's been suggested but I feel like if we did get a raise function it could also come with a 2min zombie effect or something that inflicts DoT. This might be unremovable or it might be removable via Esuna. Either way it would feel like something you don't want to use too often because you're either getting a form of poison/zombie or forcing the healer to use esuna and waste time healing/DpSing. It would also mean you can limit the amount of casts as it would have a 30sec cooldown (waiting on the Foul meter) but also make you think twice about 2 well times foul meter charges. Time it right you could raise twice in a matter of seconds but would you want to?
I like the idea. If not the DoT how about a BLM raise reducing max HP for a period or something. Large Dmg Down buff applied. Something to limit it I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Rhus

Well I approve of the idea. Would be nice to have an alternative use to the Foul meter.

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I don't. It's not that I think a Raise is off limits, but this isn't the implementation I'd want.

The issues brought up are:

1. Black Mages have infinite MP. We bypass this by making one of the major 'costs' the Cooldown.
2. Black Mages don't want to be raise botting. Point 1 already bypasses this. A long cooldown means it's not raise bot potential but still brings an emergency raise.
3. Caster Raise isn't solved by giving it to more Casters. It's an all or nothing boat at this point. Either all get it or none should get it. We implement 'all' by making it a role action.
4. "But Red mage". We remove Verraise, and buff them up. Embolden not decaying, Dual Cast increasing spell damage, something along those lines.
5. "But if Black mage can raise their DPS has to go down". *looks at Summoner*

My personal favorite I've listed in these threads before.

Reanimation
Role Action
180 second Recast
Cost: 4800 MP
8 second Cast Time
Effect: Raises target ally, bypassing Resurrection sickness and applying the Living Death effect for 10 seconds. if the target isn't healed to full within that duration, the target dies again.

Each caster has an intrinsically different advantage and disadvantage to this version of Raise, it is sufficiently different from healer raise (Bypass Sickness? 1337 deeps bro), and effectively accomplishes what caster Raise does - It shifts the burden of raise to the Caster so the healer can remain focused on keeping the party alive, so it doesn't cascade into more deaths.

Black Mage: Minimal cost, but requires an instant cast cooldown to minimize DPS loss.
Summoner: Medium cost, but doesn't lose as much if Swift isn't available.
Red Mage: Heavy cost, but always available through Dual Cast.

^ I like this idea.
It doesn't have the full effect of a raise, requiring a proper healer to finish the job, and has DPS contribution.

Don't need Rez just more fireballs. And freeze giving umbral hearts, UI3.

Can we please stop trying to give black mages a Raise variant?

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Can we please stop trying to give black mages a Raise variant?

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But if black mage doesn't have a raise the few raiders who actually care about composition won't like them.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

But if black mage doesn't have a raise the few raiders who actually care about composition won't like them.

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Yeah this is my original intention that most statics do not accept BLM (they usually specify SMN/RDM) and I feel BLM could have the raise to at least match other caster jobs.

Aim for a more more casual static? Most of the people I cleared O7S with where part of a static (presumably going by what I could gather) and with them was a black mage. And a fair amount of prog parties I was in featured black mages.