Lily a little unnecessary?

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Since Assize should be used on cooldown, so I don't think too much of an assumption that you have plenty of time to build lilies in the meantime. It might not seem like much, and in some cases it might not even matter at all, but if you're about to head into a heavy AoE phase like the Gaurdian's second add, then having your assize up 12 seconds earlier can make a difference.

You're going to have to heal sometime, and you shouldn't be cure 2ing at such a low mana level. It's not such an unusual thing to build a lily here and there. Just instead of waiting for the tank to get low and then burst him up with CDs, just throw in an extra cure or two right before assize comes up. Just avoid accidentally blowing them on a benison or something, that's all. I'm not advocating for sitting there farming for lillies for every CD. Cure 1 is the exact same mana as Stone 4 after all.

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No, no you do not want to blow Assize on cooldown. That mentality made healing Exdeath much harder as I simply didn't have enough options between the Stack, Flares and White Hole. You typically want to time Assize for large AoE bursts yet not sit on it too long. As for throwing a Cure or Cure II on the tank, that's a DPS loss if HoTs would have ticked them up otherwise. Lilies work for dungeons or if you have enough fluff damage going out to compensate for utilizing Cure II more. It's rarely ever something you plan consistency but sort of happens. Hence why people have such a dislike towards Lilies.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I'm a tad confused. My post was built on hypothetical, and listed multiple scenarios. Sometimes you can forget to use a CD, so it might be up. Sometimes your raise aligns with a CD coming off CD. Sometimes you have multiple CDs avaliable. Sometimes you don't have any CDs.

My point was that using Cure I is hardly ever an efficient use of your GCD. Even with low MP you have other tools that can help you heal through until you get you MP back up. Why would I use 3 Cures if I could instead use Regen and Divine Benison?

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Hmm, perhaps it's on my co-healers then? I'm staticless, so communication is low between healers. SCHs work fine between faerie and their extremely available aetherflow CDs, but I find just regen/benison to not be sufficient when paired with AST, especially if there's incoming mechanics going on.

I apologize for skipping over you hypothetical earlier, but I can address it now.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If you have Assize you should use it as soon as possible, trying to get as much healing out of it as you can. Using 3 Cures and then casting Assize is usually a waste of GCDs and MP. A 20% CD reduction on Assize is 12 seconds, sure, but you would have to spend ~7.5 seconds priming it, effectively only reducing the CD by ~4.5 seconds.

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I don't really understand where this is coming from. I'm not trying to say grabbing 3 lilies is efficient, but the goal in my scenario is to just tread water in order to have the mana for upcoming mechanics. If you know that there won't be much incoming damage soon, but if you know 3 back to back raid wide AoEs coming up in less a minute and your Thin Air and Lucid are out of reach, then you'll want that extra mana available to you.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I don't really understand where this is coming from. I'm not trying to say grabbing 3 lilies is efficient, but the goal in my scenario is to just tread water in order to have the mana for upcoming mechanics. If you know that there won't be much incoming damage soon, but if you know 3 back to back raid wide AoEs coming up in less a minute and your Thin Air and Lucid are out of reach, then you'll want that extra mana available to you.

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Spending 3 spells worth of MP so you can get Assize back 12 seconds faster a minute later isn't exactly a net gain. If I'm that hard up for MP because I died with everything already on cooldown, I need it *now*, not in five minutes when using Assize immediately when it's up with 3 lilies would get me an extra one vs using it with no lilies. By then I've gotten Lucid and Thin Air back twice.

Probably better to do something I didn't see mentioned: drink an ether.

I mean, if you actually need those three Cure I spells, then sure. But casting them when they're not optimal themselves because it'll get Assize back faster isn't helping you.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

EDIT: This is meant to be what to do after you are raised.


If you have Lucid or Thin Air avaliable, you pop one or both and your MP should be fine.

If you have Assize you should use it as soon as possible, trying to get as much healing out of it as you can. Using 3 Cures and then casting Assize is usually a waste of GCDs and MP. A 20% CD reduction on Assize is 12 seconds, sure, but you would have to spend ~7.5 seconds priming it, effectively only reducing the CD by ~4.5 seconds.

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this is pretty much my point. the Lillie's cooldown reduction can be useful, but by how much? it seems moot to trade time for time. and sure while you get a little more back then you give, this only true if you use the 3stack of Lillie's immediately, and keep the one specific action in constant usage right after it is finished from cooldown, plus already have 3 Lillie's saved to immediately reduce the cooldown again.

all-in-all, to me... the whole Lily system seems to encourage bad play styles.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No, no you do not want to blow Assize on cooldown. That mentality made healing Exdeath much harder as I simply didn't have enough options between the Stack, Flares and White Hole. You typically want to time Assize for large AoE bursts yet not sit on it too long. As for throwing a Cure or Cure II on the tank, that's a DPS loss if HoTs would have ticked them up otherwise. Lilies work for dungeons or if you have enough fluff damage going out to compensate for utilizing Cure II more. It's rarely ever something you plan consistency but sort of happens. Hence why people have such a dislike towards Lilies.

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this is something else i was trying to point out. either you just wing it, in which case the player doesn't gain any noticeable benefit. or you try to plan it out and risk not using an action as much as you should in the first place. of course, you can spam Cure, but that is an unnecessary loss in damage and/or mana. plus, that brings us back to the moot point of trading time for time.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

OMG, this thread scared me a sec, you really should change the title if you can. You meant Lilies, as in the WHM mechanic. Lily, is the faerie. I'm sure a lot of SCH clicked on this thread ready to question why, lol

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LOL! i didn't think about that. Lily is the one that appears while questing right? if i recall correctly, the player summons either Eos or Selene.

i tried to change the topic title, but it seems to only be reflected after entering the thread. oh wells. :/

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

LOL! i didn't think about that. Lily is the one that appears while questing right? if i recall correctly, the player summons either Eos or Selene.

i tried to change the topic title, but it seems to only be reflected after entering the thread. oh wells. :/

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Lily is the faerie in general, Eos and Selene are two sides of her. Think of Eos like Diurnal Sect and Selene like Nocturnal Sect. For non SCHs, and some SCHs too, it can be a bit confusing, but SCHs only have one summon. In the SCH quests she tends to use the Eos form moreso though. The Encyclopedia Eorzea explains this in the SCH section.

http://i.imgur.com/CsKvrri.png

Found this on reddit as a joke, but honestly the "Ignore This Shit" seems pretty accurate.

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Originally Posted by WilhelmWhite

http://i.imgur.com/CsKvrri.png

Found this on reddit as a joke, but honestly the "Ignore This Shit" seems pretty accurate.

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That's about the only accurate part of it, sadly. Seriously, "delete Plenary from your bar"? "Press Thin Air at random"? "Press Divine Benison to save idiots instead of actively plan on using it off CD to mitigate massive ability spikes"? OK, Mr. Reddit extreme primal pug pro with serious delusions of grandeur.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

That's about the only accurate part of it, sadly. Seriously, "delete Plenary from your bar"? "Press Thin Air at random"? "Press Divine Benison to save idiots instead of actively plan on using it off CD to mitigate massive ability spikes"? OK, Mr. Reddit extreme primal pug pro with serious delusions of grandeur.

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It was made as a joke >.>

https://i.imgur.com/aZ9MxOT.png

Literally posted with the Comedy tag. No part of it was meant to be taken seriously. Lighten up a bit.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

That's about the only accurate part of it, sadly. Seriously, "delete Plenary from your bar"? "Press Thin Air at random"? "Press Divine Benison to save idiots instead of actively plan on using it off CD to mitigate massive ability spikes"? OK, Mr. Reddit extreme primal pug pro with serious delusions of grandeur.

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...You know this is suppose to be a joke-infographic, right?
I could be remembering it wrongly but I think this has been around since pre-4.0's launch using info we got from the Stormblood Media event, back when Cure and Cure II didn't have a guaranteed chance of give you Lilies, so Divine Benison was locked behind an RNG wall, making it extremely unreliable... >x>

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Originally Posted by WilhelmWhite

It was made as a joke >.>

https://i.imgur.com/aZ9MxOT.png

Literally posted with the Comedy tag. No part of it was meant to be taken seriously. Lighten up a bit.

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I guess I just don't think bad information is funny, and given that some of the sentiments posted are ones we've seen here in the healer subforum in a serious sense...idk, it just riles me a bit. Admittedly, it seems to have been posted before WHM underwent some changes, but I seriously don't think there was ever a time when "Press Thin Air whenever" was good advice, or that taking Plenary off your bar was ever good advice.

Maybe I should have put a disclaimer "I know this is a joke picture but it still annoys me because it's wrong" at the start of my post? EDIT: Especially since the XIV Reddit tends to have a very "we're much better players than everyone else" holier-than-thou attitude going on every time I check something out there.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I guess I just don't think bad information is funny

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It's not even real "information"... it's quite obviously a fake infograph.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I seriously don't think there was ever a time when "Press Thin Air whenever" was good advice, or that taking Plenary off your bar was ever good advice.

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There wasn't ever a time when this was good advice, hence why it is a joke.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Maybe I should have put a disclaimer "I know this is a joke picture but it still annoys me because it's wrong

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No one would ever take this infograph seriously, hence why the "information" is wrong. It's supposed to be wrong. Because that's part of the joke. This infograph is very similar to this video, which I also find pretty funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBX7OqTXqcc. And just like the fake infograph, this video also has a disclaimer, showing that none of it is serious. I have no idea why it bothers you so much.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Spending 3 spells worth of MP so you can get Assize back 12 seconds faster a minute later isn't exactly a net gain. If I'm that hard up for MP because I died with everything already on cooldown, I need it *now*, not in five minutes when using Assize immediately when it's up with 3 lilies would get me an extra one vs using it with no lilies. By then I've gotten Lucid and Thin Air back twice.

Probably better to do something I didn't see mentioned: drink an ether.

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It's certainly no loss. What else are you doing with your mana? If you're not healing, you should be dealing damage, and cure isn't any more expensive than your damage spells.
I honestly completely forgot ethers exist. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I'll pick some up now. Thank you for that.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I mean, if you actually need those three Cure I spells, then sure. But casting them when they're not optimal themselves because it'll get Assize back faster isn't helping you.

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This is literally all I'm saying. You die, your next mana appropriate CD is 25 seconds away, throw a couple Cures instead of your normal Cure 2s since you might need Tetra for a tankbuster or prey on your limited budget, and try to make sure those lilies land on an Assize.

I have never advocated standing around using Cure 1s instead of AoEing, nor have I mentioned holding off on Assize just to get lilies. I would highly appreciate it if people would stop shoving those words into my mouth.