Please change the requirements to become mentor

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I have 750 comms on multiple characters. XD I really don't think that sort of change will make any sort of meaningful changes to the system.

Honestly, for as many bad mentors as they are, it also needs to be acknowledged that it's not just mentors that are toxic, the general player base can also bring out the worst in some despite some mentors best intentions.

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Also worth mentioning there are good mentors out there too. They might be few (or seem like it), but they do exist.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Also worth mentioning there are good mentors out there too. They might be few (or seem like it), but they do exist.

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I've seen far more good mentors than I have bad ones honestly. I get a little nervous when I got into the roulette cause I'm not always sure I'm prepped to explain the fight thoroughly, and I've had some mentors AFK during fights like Titan EX, but then I've also had other mentors in the queue that step up and help everyone, and that has happened far more than the later. I've only done mentor roulette 114 times so far, but even in normal queues I've seen people stepping up.

The mentor witch hunt is a meme that I feel a lot of salty people are pushing. I do think there needs to be some way to keep bad apples in check, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as the forums tends to make it seem.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

That a lone should help towards getting rid of some of the trash walking around with crowns.

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You were doing so well until you had to go an insult and generalize people you've never met.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

The mentor witch hunt is a meme that I feel a lot of salty people are pushing. I do think there needs to be some way to keep bad apples in check, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as the forums tends to make it seem.

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To be fair the forums make LOTS of things seem way worse than they are.
When the mentor system came out I was originally excited because it would be a way to help out people and mark myself as someone who'd be helpful. Unfortunately since some people just see it as another achievement to tick off, it's lost a lot of it's original oomph.
I think there needs to be a separate mentor commendation system if anything. No demerits or something that someone could abuse, but definitely something that would be purely checked off from a position of gratitude. Maybe a dialogue that popped up after the dungeon or instance that says "*Player name* is registered to be a mentor, do you feel they were helpful during the previous instance?" and only after a certain amount of "yes" votes do they start the mentor progression. NO PF parties or premades count towards this. No way to retroactively do this now though.
I think SE went the wrong way with rewarding people for being mentors. It ended up attracting a few really bad apples that soured it for the rest.

The first step is to change that crown to a watering can or, better yet, a big ugly "M".

Want to know why there's people who are a Deush it's because some of the players rather not learn and listen to what people tell/teach. One could change/difficult it but in the end. Mentors rather spend their time teaching others who want to learn. My moto is strive to be the best or don't waste your and mentors time.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Which then begs the question:
Why is it locked behind mentor status? Wouldn't it be far better to make it open to everyone if that's the purpose?

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Maybe because it guarantees that the people queuing for it can fill a spot in *any* duty instead of skewing it towards low-leveled dungeons like leveling roulette does? That's my best guess anyway.

So what exactly is the issue anyway? As a mentor myself, I don't even notice, nor care, if a person in my party is a mentor. If someone is bad they're bad, if they're good, they're good. What does the mentor system have to do with any of that?

I still get to help people in novice network, which is a great tool for helping others, by the way. Sure, you get some bad apples here and there, but there is rarely ever a question that goes unanswered. If someone happens to gives bad advice, other points of view get thrown in.

As far as I can tell, the mentor system has done little to no bad, and much good.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So what exactly is the issue anyway? As a mentor myself, I don't even notice, nor care, if a person in my party is a mentor. If someone is bad they're bad, if they're good, they're good. What does the mentor system have to do with any of that?

I still get to help people in novice network, which is a great tool for helping others, by the way. Sure, you get some bad apples here and there, but there is rarely ever a question that goes unanswered. If someone happens to gives bad advice, other points of view get thrown in.

As far as I can tell, the mentor system has done little to no bad, and much good.

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I think it’s more so the mentors that just want the shinies and not actually teach. JP’s community received the mentor program a lot better than NA’s; NA’s has a lot of people in it that I’m surprised made it as far as they did in-game to even become a mentor.

It’s more the people that don’t want to teach wanting the rewards, I think. And the crown. I wear my crown, but I couldn’t care less about the mount behind the roulette.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I think it’s more so the mentors that just want the shinies and not actually teach. JP’s community received the mentor program a lot better than NA’s; NA’s has a lot of people in it that I’m surprised made it as far as they did in-game to even become a mentor.

It’s more the people that don’t want to teach wanting the rewards, I think. And the crown. I wear my crown, but I couldn’t care less about the mount behind the roulette.

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But I'm not understanding why it's a problem. They'd still be bad players even if they didn't have the crown. The mentor system didn't make them bad.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But I'm not understanding why it's a problem. They'd still be bad players even if they didn't have the crown. The mentor system didn't make them bad.

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People who are "bad" shouldn't be wearing a tag or flag that says "I'm here to help you if you need assistance or have questions." It should be organized or implemented in such a way that people who don't want to help or would be a detriment shouldn't want to have the title.

From experience and from what regular experiences from fc members and other friends You get a few different things.
Mentors insta leaving or vote abandoning any kinda of trial or extreme if its not downed in first try.This applies to alliance runs too.More often than not they will not even try and xplain mechanics before or after said wipes.I usually end up having to explain.
Mentors regularly getting themselves locked out of all fights in alliance roulettes so they dont have to do any fighting.
Mentors fake disconnecting if they get an instance they dont like on load.
Spohia,AV,Stone Vigil,Quarn.Bismark hard this regularly happens.
Have had numerous times when new fc members got trash talked by mentors after a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

People who are "bad" shouldn't be wearing a tag or flag that says "I'm here to help you if you need assistance or have questions." It should be organized or implemented in such a way that people who don't want to help or would be a detriment shouldn't want to have the title.

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Yeah, they shouldn't be, but I don't see any issue with them wearing it. Whether they have it or not, the end result is the same. They aren't going to help.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But I'm not understanding why it's a problem. They'd still be bad players even if they didn't have the crown. The mentor system didn't make them bad.

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That’s true. But the bad mentors give a bad name to the good ones out there; so much so that a lot of people just assume all mentors are trash. There will always be bad players, but they shouldn’t be wearing a symbol that says “I’m here to help you become a better player” when they are bad players themselves. The fact there are so many “bad mentors” is where the system is so flawed; I really think part is because there are rewards locked behind a system meant to help teach others, and I would not care one bit if they removed Astrophe from the Roulette. Just give it increased tomestones to give people an incentive, but people should be running it to help and not because they want a mount.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Yeah, they shouldn't be, but I don't see any issue with them wearing it. Whether they have it or not, the end result is the same. They aren't going to help.

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Then they shouldn’t have the crown. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

Also worth mentioning there are good mentors out there too. They might be few (or seem like it), but they do exist.

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Agreed. My FC leader actually gives people advice and tries to help out wherever he can. He actually gets flak for other from other mentors, which is ridiculous. Can't be giving them a good name after all. What would people think?

I'd love to be a mentor, but I'm a level 60 tank and about 250 dungons away from it. Been grinding too much othet stuff to focus on it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Yeah, they shouldn't be, but I don't see any issue with them wearing it. Whether they have it or not, the end result is the same. They aren't going to help.

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Of course there is an issue the crown is suppose to tell players "Hey i'm a mentor, I'm here to help you if you need".
The mentor system is mean to veteran willing to help others not allows any idiot not willing to help to wear a crown next to their names.

Proposal - condition using the crown on active participation in either the Novice Network or the Mentor Roulette. You're not in the NN and haven't ran a Mentor roulette in, say, two weeks? There goes your crown. If you want it back you'll need to complete, for argument's sake, 3 mentor roulettes with daily bonus or accumulate such and such hours in the NN. When it comes down to it, these two things are the unique features that become accessible to mentors. So if you wanna be a Mentor, you need to actively partake in them. Otherwise, as helpful as you may be, you're exactly like every other non-mentor player and there's no point in you wearing the crown in the first place.
Crafting/Gathering mentors can maintain their crown through active participation in the NN.

Granted, it can still be exploited, but I should hope that most players who just want the vanity icon will bail once they see the Shiva Ex they just queued into and lose their crowns.
Then there's the more extreme variation of it, saying that you should only wear the crown while running mentor roulette. If you're in the NN everyone knows which side of the fence you're on anyway

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Of course there is an issue the crown is suppose to tell players "Hey i'm a mentor, I'm here to help you if you need".
The mentor system is mean to veteran willing to help others not allows any idiot not willing to help to wear a crown next to their names.

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And it still does that. Just because some of them might not doesn't mean that the others don't help anymore.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And it still does that. Just because some of them might not doesn't mean that the others don't help anymore.

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Except people that have no desire to teach shouldn’t be a mentor in the first place. A mentor is someone who mentors people. Don’t want to do that? Don’t wear the crown.

If you aren’t willing to teach, you don’t need to be a teacher. Because you give the people who do a bad reputation. There’s a reason why mentors are memes.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

And it still does that. Just because some of them might not doesn't mean that the others don't help anymore.

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Nobody said that we said people not willing to help do not deserve the crown. Real mentors do.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Nobody said that we said people not willing to help do not deserve the crown. Real mentors do.

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The problem with that approach, as logical and intuitive as it is, is that there is absolutely no way in-game to check for that. You can have the most helpful player in the history of this game, but they only have the one dps class at 70, absolutely nothing else leveled, and half a comm, so it doesn't matter that they can clear Ultimate blindfolded and carry 7 other players while they're at it, the game has absolutely no way of knowing it.
Which, sadly, comes back around to the entire system being a glorified means to fill queues, because you can be just as helpful without being a mentor, but there's no guarantee you'll help if you are already a mentor. The system's a glorified paradox outside of Japan, basically.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except people that have no desire to teach shouldn’t be a mentor in the first place. A mentor is someone who mentors people. Don’t want to do that? Don’t wear the crown.

If you aren’t willing to teach, you don’t need to be a teacher. Because you give the people who do a bad reputation. There’s a reason why mentors are memes.

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Mentors are memes because people are treating the mentor system as if they were a collective instead of treating people as individuals.

Surprisingly, every mentor is different. Even among those who share a desire to help others. For example, not every mentor is going to have an answer to something you may want to know. Amazing, I know.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I think SE went the wrong way with rewarding people for being mentors. It ended up attracting a few really bad apples that soured it for the rest.

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This. It should in no way be a means to get loot. That's the root of the problem.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Surprisingly, every mentor is different. Even among those who share a desire to help others. For example, not every mentor is going to have an answer to something you may want to know. Amazing, I know.

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When did I ever say this was the case? Nowhere. Unless you’re just stating this; at that point, it’s not relevant to the conversation at all.

I said that the “mentors” who don’t want to help people at all don’t need to be mentors.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

This. It should in no way be a means to get loot. That's the root of the problem.

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I'd say the problem was more the tying the roulette to the mentor system, because that's where most of the friction comes from. If someone is rude in the Novice Network, they can get kicked and you easily have logs to report them. But if a mentor bails on a roulette, how do you deal with it? They were already punished by the built-in penalty. They explicitly said the roulette was there to fill up queues, but at the same time the Mentor's own guidelines requires so much more, and it's locking the dual pony behind it. Problem.
I agree with a notion that was brought up earlier - break the roulette away from the Mentor system and turn it into Duty Roulette: Veteran. A lot of people who'll run it will still be helpful and actually teach. The many who won't won't get half as much flack for simply playing their role (mind that elitism and toxic behavior should still be reported). But it will certainly tone down a lot of the friction that comes from the roulette being a Mentor thing. Lots of Mentors don't even run the roulette in the first place, anyway, and plenty of roulette goers couldn't care less about the NN.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Proposal - condition using the crown on active participation in either the Novice Network or the Mentor Roulette. You're not in the NN and haven't ran a Mentor roulette in, say, two weeks?

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NN on Cactaur is full half the time, mentor wise, and half of the time I do get in the "participation" is mentors using it as their own private global chat channel. Participation in that is not an indication of anything. Occasionally it does really nice things like some sprout who left Ok'Zundu without getting the aetheryte and didn't know how to get back, so one of us went over to meet her and flew her there, but a lot of the time it's not serving any kind of mentoring function at all.

Nor is mentor roulette, which many people skip because they don't want their time wasted getting an ex trial with a bunch of undergeared people that have no idea what they've signed up for and can't possibly clear. You're already trading something by not doing mentor roulette: you don't get the reward. Mandatory hour of wipes because someone refuses to use PF isn't much of an indication of anything.

Neither of those things are an indication of if someone is mentoring correctly or not. You'd need to see them in levelling or trial roulette when they get a group that's struggling to know. If they mentor in there, then they deserve the mentor status. But, that can't be done by just ticking off some boxes and handing out loot for participation.

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Then there's the more extreme variation of it, saying that you should only wear the crown while running mentor roulette. If you're in the NN everyone knows which side of the fence you're on anyway

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The point of the crown should be a flag saying "hey, I'm available to answer questions!" and not "I qualified for a crown." The whole mentality behind it is wrong right now. Helpfulness is not something that can be measured by how many dungeons you've done or if you chat about your favorite movies with other mentors in a chat channel. It's about your desire to be helpful. There shouldn't be a loot reward for that, because that's how we get tons of people with no business being there.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I agree with a notion that was brought up earlier - break the roulette away from the Mentor system and turn it into Duty Roulette: Veteran. A lot of people who'll run it will still be helpful and actually teach. The many who won't won't get half as much flack for simply playing their role (mind that elitism and toxic behavior should still be reported). But it will certainly tone down a lot of the friction that comes from the roulette being a Mentor thing. Lots of Mentors don't even run the roulette in the first place, anyway, and plenty of roulette goers couldn't care less about the NN.

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I'd agree with all of that, yep. :) That would solve a lot of the issues.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

There shouldn't be a loot reward for that, because that's how we get tons of people with no business being there.

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But the roulette is there to fill queues, not carry anyone or even get them their clear (though obviously the clear is the desired result, as otherwise it won't even tick for the achievement). And that's why I'm thinking more and more that the roulette needs to be pulled away from the Mentor system. Mentors will join extreme clear and learning parties in PF and can still join the roulette if they wanna. And no one is going to run 2k of any one roulette if they won't get awards, no one is that kind nor should we be, we're playing a game, and a subscription one at that. But I feel like a lot more people will have much more realistic and fair expectations of the roulette goers if they pulled these two things apart.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

I'd agree with all of that, yep. :) That would solve a lot of the issues.

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word o/

As a mentor who actually helps people I think I would lean more towards the extreme. Make it so it requires achievements ( minimum 7k points would make sense ) / playtime ( 2 years minimum ) / Role completion ( 3 for each role instead of one ) / disqualification for using jump potions ( would help weed out the non experience players ) and make so that any player at the end of run can evaluate mentors before exiting. Example thumbs up / down would demote mentor if average drops under 3 stars from a 5 star system. Even I t hink there are some really crappy mentors out there that really deserve to have their status revoked. SPECIALLY those that quit before a run.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

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Bruh I already have the one job, I don't need another, especially one I have to pay to access instead of the other way around. And downvote will be horrendous for the same reason commendations are ultimately useless - people will give them for the wrong reasons.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Bruh I already have the one job, I don't need another, especially one I have to pay to access instead of the other way around. And downvote will be horrendous for the same reason commendations are ultimately useless - people will give them for the wrong reasons.

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Not sure what your worried about, as a mentor I get pretty good commendations on 90% of my runs. Unless people are trolling I could understand. Not sure how your runs work unless your not doing your part. Ok well lets remove the thumbs up / down part then for us who have actually completed all 70 jobs would actually be a good thing. There is an idea give Mentor status minimum all jobs at 60 -.-

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Not sure what your worried about, as a mentor I get pretty good commendations on 90% of my runs. Unless people are trolling I could understand. Not sure how your runs work unless your not doing your part.

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You seriously want to tell me you never had people bite your head off for trying to offer advice after the second wipe? Lucky bastard. And I was being polite and factual about the content, in case you thought that was the problem.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You seriously want to tell me you never had people bite your head off for trying to offer advice after the second wipe? Lucky bastard. And I was being polite and factual about the content, in case you thought that was the problem.

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That's probably your problem you give advice, I ask if they need advice. After third wipe I tell them ok 3 times is way too much and give advice as a friendly reminder on main points. Point is not place blame and keep it in general. IF they try to bite my head or try, I turn it around, and place it on them as to what they think the solution is ? have them realize their issue and make them play the part of the ass. Believe me it works and will give you less headaches in the long run.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

That's probably your problem you give advice, I ask if they need advice.

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You just got really good groups. So many times it doesn't matter what I do, say nothing, ask politely, just dish it out, the crown alone makes me a target. Woe is me for actually knowing the content. People actually explaining has long since been seen as elitist in this game, sadly. Ironic, seeing how that's one of the things outright expected from Mentors.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You just got really good groups. So many times it doesn't matter what I do, say nothing, ask politely, just dish it out, the crown alone makes me a target. Woe is me for actually knowing the content. People actually explaining has long since been seen as elitist in this game, sadly. Ironic, seeing how that's one of the things outright expected from Mentors.

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I hear you, it's human nature to make asses of them selves and lets face it everyone thinks they know their job or what to do. They probably had bad experience with mentors as well. I've met some that are real asses and I just let my stats speak for me. Or I just request to kick me of to avoid penalty. Sucks for them when I play tank or healer and if they question my knowledge I look them up and place their role / levels/ into question. They hate that but in the end I don't take things personally. After all those who lose their cool lose the argument. Beside what better way to make them feel like asses and weed most of them out by placing high requirements rather than these joke requirements. Unlike most some of us put in the hard work and dedication. Beside if the group is not worth salvaging you can probably do that run 2-3 if you just go as a tank or healer role. Good way to cool off too.

I think comms are kind of funny.

Most of the times as a tank I will get 4 or 5 comms just for saying Hello in the beginning and Good Job at the end of the instance.

Honestly lately for me Mentor Roulette has just been a leveling roulette with a different title

On this topic, I do believe that mentor requirements should be scaled up considering we're in Stormblood. That being said I don't think a mentor should necessarily be able to complete all levels of content, there's far more pressing issues than mentors being unable to complete a given piece of content. Assuming this is what you mean by awful.

I'm sure there's plenty of "advanced" players out there with countless commendations that can't even answer the most basic questions about the game, so, simply being skilled at the game is quite an insignificant aspect when you compare it to the amount of people asking questions such as "What do I do now that I hit level 50/60/70, and progressed [x] far in the scenario", "When do I get my first chocobo?" etc etc.

You can make the requirements as high as you like, at that point it just becomes a factor of grinding, and not to mention whether a person is a poor mentor or not won't change by simply increasing the commendations required, or the dungeon runs, or even whether players should have completed [x] and [y] content, in many respects the PvE mentor is flawed from the get go

I still think one of the best ways to discourage "prestige" mentors is to turn the icon into something uncool.

I’m of the mindset the whole system may as well be scraped. It’s a noble idea, but it’s been the receiving end of so much snark, and more often than not, rightfully so. The people who want to mentor will do so, silly crown or not (I have mentor status but haven’t had that crown on in over a year).

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Originally Posted by MiepMausi

How about a "Rate-the-mentor" pop-up at the end of a dungeoun, trial, whatever, displayed in the profile for everyone to see how much you actually do care about mentoring newbies or just want that (rather ugly) crown over your head with numbers of ratings and somewhat like an overall 1-5 stars summarythingy, I dunno.

edit - didn't saw it was brought up before, sorry z.z

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While the idea may sound good in practice it would be abused by people who dont want to learn or toxic players running on alts and you'd have genuine hard working mentors getting punished.