Is Byakko the easiest Primal upon relase?

Bismarck > Lakshmi > Biakko > ...

(Yesterday I was in a pug where the tanks could do the “grab/share” by themselves... there are mechanics here I find them a bit forgiving)

I think Susano was easier and more entertaining.

I'd say Lakshmi, Susano, and Bismarck EX were easier than Byakko.

However, Byakko is still easy enough for most pugs. Can't say the same for Shinryu EX (myself being guilty of being bad at Shinryu EX for starters.)

Simple, but fun on melee anywhere from attempt #1 to clear #30. That's as far as I'm bothering with, though.

I mean, if you want to really interact with mechanics in the first place, maybe Bard/MCH isn't the best choice?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Susano is not easy, lakshimi is not either.

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You were also the same person that said playing a caster was boring.

You are wrong on three counts now.

I'd say Byakko is definitely easy, but not the easiest. For SB, that's Lakshmi. For HW, it's Zurvan. For ARR, it's Shiva.

I think there's a difference between how hard (or easy) primals are conceptually and then there's how hard they feel in practice; for whatever reason. Then there's also how much impact one person messing-up has on the rest of the party.

Conceptually, I do think Bismark is supposed to be an easy fight, by I recall way more wipes and general mess-ups that lead to said wipes. Way more than Ravana parties, even on bird whistle farming. It felt like the only thing Ravana had going for it was Final Liberation; the rest was mostly a memorized dance. Bismark had people failing to kill adds, tanks messing-up the sanuwa swaps, dragonkillers being missed, people reacting to the weather phases incorrectly and people dying to their DoT stacks on its back. You can use the HW newness excuse if you want, but it still made Bismark a far more frustrating experience than it had to be.

Then there was Sophia, who was easy in practice, but on paper looked harder than she actually was. As someone already mentioned, you could literally follow just one person who knew what to do and the party automatically handles most of her lethal gimmicks. And then pretty much everything else she could throw at you was recoverable even if you messed up.

Susano felt like a mix of Bismark and Ravana: he had a distinct memorizable pattern, but had several mechanics that could easily punish the whole group if just one person messed-up, which then snowballs into a wipe. He wasn't hard by any means, but I do recall many wipes due to just one person placing lightning/markers incorrectly.

...And then there's Lakshmi with the most telegraphed gimmicks and breathing room of any primal in recent memory. She is both easy conceptually and in practice. You can literally just watch for when you need to use Vrill when she has that dark super-sayan aura, and then you've just nullified pretty much everything she can do to ruin the run outside of gross negligence. She set the bar pretty low, so she's my pick for "easiest."

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

You wouldnt be saying that if you still had the 3.0 Bard.
Also you feel its too easy then go beat it without the tank lb.

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Hi! RDM main, so basically 3.0 brd, cleared 10+ times without tank lb3. It felt pretty easy all told.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hi! RDM main, so basically 3.0 brd, cleared 10+ times without tank lb3. It felt pretty easy all told.

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You've got an ilvl 370 weapon and several other parts are ilvl 370 along with hq crafted and fully melded gear.Of course it wouldnt be hard if you're that over geared for it.

I don't know why so many people are implying that Byakko is the easiest Extreme fight. He isn't. Putting aside the simple fact that difficulty is subjective, objectively Byakko has more intensity in terms of mechanics than the likes of Lakshmi and Bismarck because it's possible for other players to cause a wipe if they do not position themselves correctly or simply die so much that they can't dish out the DPS required to take him down before his enrage phase.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

You wouldnt be saying that if you still had the 3.0 Bard.
Also you feel its too easy then go beat it without the tank lb cheat.

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I'll go you one better. Two static mates were running a pug and asked if I'd tank for them. Not only had I never even done the fight before, I was in full last tier gear, including crafted 320 accessories that weren't overmelded.

He still rolled over. And no, people didn't have any higher than 340-350 since they were farming weapons.

Out of SB primals I think Lakshmi is the easiest, then Byakko, then Susano.

I'm putting Susano ahead of Byakko because mistakes would cost more, in Byakko almost every failed mechanic is easily survivable and you don't kill other people by failing most of them, but both are mechanically easy.

I don't know why anyone would call Lakhsmi not easy, the entire thing is just using vril before getting hit by any attack, nothing else. Repeat for the entire fight.

Overall I'd say Lakshmi > Bismarck > Byakko > Susano > Shiva = Sophia - in terms of the EX primals people consider very easy.

I think they had to make Byakko easier to make up for the difficulty of Shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I think they had to make Byakko easier to make up for the difficulty of Shinryu.

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The primals who come out with new tiers of savage, are roughly equal to the first floor of savage or maybe easier, to earn entry gear for savage.

The patches between, the primal is roughly on par with the 2nd or 3rd floor boss, as an alternative way to gear up for the 3rd/4th boss.

So the difficulty alternates.

Honestly cleared Byakko faster than either Lakshmi or Susano. I find Byakko easier as mistakes are less punishing. Lakshmi always turned into "who's the moron who doesn't use Vril" and Susano mistakes can cause the whole party trouble.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

You've got an ilvl 370 weapon and several other parts are ilvl 370 along with hq crafted and fully melded gear.Of course it wouldnt be hard if you're that over geared for it.

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Said as if I had those when 4.2 dropped. XD

I farmed Byakko for the weapon to start Savage with, silly. When I did it on my RDM, I did it with the Genji set.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Said as if I had those when 4.2 dropped. XD

I farmed Byakko for the weapon to start Savage with, silly. When I did it on my RDM, I did it with the Genji set.

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Dont recall you stating you had done it 10 times since day 1.Only that you had done it 10 times.Not to mention tank lb cheese was done since day 1.Then there is the fact that people were doing clears on content day 1 with fully crafted ilvl 350 sets fully pentamelded.You may have done it full genji set 10 times first day and fair dues to you if you did but you would have been the minority.There are still a lot of parties that cant complete even with tank lb.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Dont recall you stating you had done it 10 times since day 1. Only that you had done it 10 times.

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I also don't recall saying that I had *just* done it, either. The assumption that the farm took place with my current gearset lies squarely on you.

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Not to mention tank lb cheese was done since day 1.

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While it's not something you could have known, my group didn't even know that the cheese strat existed until after we'd finished our pre-savage prog farm of Byakko for the weapons.

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Then there is the fact that people were doing clears on content day 1 with fully crafted ilvl 350 sets fully pentamelded.You may have done it full genji set 10 times first day and fair dues to you if you did but you would have been the minority.

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I never said I was the majority. I just said that, with RDM's toolset which is very close to that of Bowmage and Gunmage (relatively fast cast times with procs that allow free movement), I found the job easy, contrary to your statement that somebody wouldn't have with that toolset.

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There are still a lot of parties that cant complete even with tank lb.

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Yeah, it's kind of sad, but that speaks less to the fight's difficulty and more to the general skill of the playerbase. Look at the two dungeons released alongside it one can practically nap their way through.

Probably the 4.0 primals are easier, stormblood has had this disturbing pattern of making ex primals normal mode with a single telegraphed obvious mechanic added.

SE is probably lowering the EX difficulty (and Savage difficulty, while adding Ultimate) to avoid a repeat of Alexander.

If that equals more players raiding, then it was a successful move, even if old hands are breezing through it.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

Honestly cleared Byakko faster than either Lakshmi or Susano. I find Byakko easier as mistakes are less punishing. Lakshmi always turned into "who's the moron who doesn't use Vril" and Susano mistakes can cause the whole party trouble.

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Byakko is who is going to die to sweep of the leg even when I make a macro warning before it comes almost without fail someone will die in a pug usually multiple times.

Also dps in general is a serious problem in pug's with enrage as a WAR I am usually above 2-3 of the dps and both healer will be close to 0 dps.

I cleared Susano, Lakshmi and Sophia in 1-2 PUG's but Byakko has made me lose faith in this community

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

It feels like an appropriate level of difficultly for an EX primal. If you want harder stuff, try Savage or Ultimate.

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Seriously? This fight was an absolute joke. Make it a bit tougher like Thordan ex on release . THAT is a primal fight

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

It feels like an appropriate level of difficultly for an EX primal. If you want harder stuff, try Savage or Ultimate.

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Why is this always the answer? Back in Heavensward, we had genuinely challenging yet still reasonable Primals in Thordan, Sephirot and even Nidhogg. Now they're utter jokes that you can push through with last tier's gear. It's no different than people wanting dungeons that aren't braindead easy. That doesn't entail Savage or Ultimate equivalents but something which requires more than a pulse to clear. The primary reason you see so many bad players is due to how incredibly easy this game is. What incentive do I have to dodge things in O5N when I can eat practically every mechanic as a DPS and heal through most with just Bloodbath and Second Wind? Obviously, Byakko isn't that much of a joke but the point still stands.

I always enjoyed Ex Primals that had the extra environment risk factor of falling or getting pushed out of the battle area. Of course it's good to have variantion as no wants to have to deal with the same mechanic every time but Byakko and Susano were both a little too easy to handle, in comparison to Shinryu and in some cases (when people forget the duty action) Lakshmi.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Susano is not easy, lakshimi is not either.

Byakko is easier.

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The solo instance of Lakshmi is legitimately harder than the EX

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

There are still a lot of parties that cant complete even with tank lb.

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It’s an alternative strategy to maximize uptime on the boss. I wish people would stop complaining about it or call it “cheating” as that implies it’s not something normally available. Using the tank LB is just one strategy for clearing the fight and I’ve been in clear parties with enough dps to not need it as well. Having multiple ways to clear a fight is a good thing and honestly something SE needs to do more of.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The primary reason you see so many bad players is due to how incredibly easy this game is. .

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Are you saying you want all content to be harder so “bad players” quit the game? I have a learning disability I’ve been able to clear some of the lower savage floors when they were relevant, but it takes me a lot longer to learn mechanics than most people I appreciate stuff like Byakko ex because for me it provides a kinda middle ground challenge where I can learn and clear it and not beat my head against it like I do with savage since it takes me longer to learn due to my disiability. I’m sure I’m what many would deem a “bad player” because of that.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I’m sure I’m what many would deem a “bad player” because of that.

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Truth be told, most internet people would deem a 50th percentile player "terribad".

The common conception when I was playing League of Legends was that you weren't "good" until you reached high diamond - i.e. the top 0,2% of the playerbase that was competitive enough to bother with ranked in the first place. Gold and Below, i.e. 90% of the playerbase, was considered "bad".

Comparing player perceptions to actual skill distribution is a fun practice.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

It’s an alternative strategy to maximize uptime on the boss. I wish people would stop complaining about it or call it “cheating” as that implies it’s not something normally available. Using the tank LB is just one strategy for clearing the fight and I’ve been in clear parties with enough dps to not need it as well. Having multiple ways to clear a fight is a good thing and honestly something SE needs to do more of.

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In live Letter the devs said the fight wasnt meant to be cleared that way and they hadnt tested for the tank LB.They had not intended to let players cheat through with tank LB.Given that 99% of clears have done this way it would cause a lot of trouble for them to fix the fight.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

In live Letter the devs said the fight wasnt meant to be cleared that way and they hadnt tested for the tank LB.They had not intended to let players cheat through with tank LB.Given that 99% of clears have done this way it would cause a lot of trouble for them to fix the fight.

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Again, it’s not a cheat. It’s an alternative strategy that the players figured out.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Again, it’s not a cheat. It’s an alternative strategy that the players figured out.

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Again it is an exploit.The devs hadnt intended the tank LB to be used to skip the phase.They admit they hadnt checked it.
This means the phase was programmed wrong and the phase doesnt overide the tank LB.But like i said it's too late to fix the exploit now.
And i guess to be fair it was an error on their side too with the coding.

People always refer to HW like that was SEs bread and butter lol first off Gordias was a mistake SE is trying very hard from repeating as they lost alot of players during that time and it also envoked the whole dps only generation, thordan ex upon release was a nightmare to deal with, people still can't do nidghogg till this day lol nuff said...

HW may have been a challenge to some but it also had some of the worse fights we know to date and SE is trying to avoid those flops again, so although they need to raise the difficulty on ex primals and savage they have to be really careful about how they do it...

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

People always refer to HW like that was SEs bread and butter lol first off Gordias was a mistake SE is trying very hard from repeating as they lost alot of players during that time and it also envoked the whole dps only generation, thordan ex upon release was a nightmare to deal with, people still can't do nidghogg till this day lol nuff said...

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I started playing when HW came out but I’ve heard that Gordias savage was responseable for the “must have uber DPS or you suck” attitude we see a lot in the community is that accurate? Or was it like that before?

Have to chip in say that Normal is harder than Byakko EX. Let that sink in for a moment...

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Originally Posted by Senhime

Have to chip in say that Normal is harder than Byakko EX. Let that sink in for a moment...

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Not sure if this was intended as a joke but I’ve been seen a group wipe to normal while I’ve seen plenty of wipes for ex. Sure the mechs are different/mixed up in normal but it’s not easier than ex.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Again it is an exploit.The devs hadnt intended the tank LB to be used to skip the phase.They admit they hadnt checked it.
This means the phase was programmed wrong and the phase doesnt overide the tank LB.But like i said it's too late to fix the exploit now.

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It really isn't. It was not intended sure, but neither was the sacrifice strategy in A4S, or the enrage strat in T2, or the hiding strat in T5. None of these are exploits as they aren't forcing the boss to do something it shouldn't or by making yourself immune to attacks. So like some strats with pulling twin up the ramp in T5 could cause her to bug out and not do her attacks properly. That's an exploit. Just using the tank LB to shield yourself from excess damage is not an exploit. If they wanted you to flat out wipe every time you failed they could've easily set the damage to 9,999,999 like light of judgement enrage. They didn't.

I mean, you're not really wrong. I remember how much hell it was to try and pug Garuda Ex and especially Titan Ex were to try and pug when they were released.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Are you saying you want all content to be harder so “bad players” quit the game? I have a learning disability I’ve been able to clear some of the lower savage floors when they were relevant, but it takes me a lot longer to learn mechanics than most people I appreciate stuff like Byakko ex because for me it provides a kinda middle ground challenge where I can learn and clear it and not beat my head against it like I do with savage since it takes me longer to learn due to my disiability. I’m sure I’m what many would deem a “bad player” because of that.

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Not at all. I want content that offers an actual difficulty curve to improve the overall playerbase and not instill bad habits. Would it not be better you gained experience and practice through dungeons and normal mode raids and trials in lieu of stomping through them? Under no circumstances should I be able to ignore mechanics in level 70 content because they simply don't deal enough damage yet I can. Expert dungeons are noticeably easier than their leveling counterparts. If you're struggling more than others, stick to learning parties until you feel comfortable. I primarily main DPS in high-end content, but enjoy tanking. When Shinryu came out, I spent hours in learning hours I knew weren't going anywhere just to gain a better grasp on mechanics before I tried farming on tanks even though I knew the entire fight from a DPS perspective.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Truth be told, most internet people would deem a 50th percentile player "terribad".

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Good thing I'm not most. I deem 50% average, and that opinion changes based on other logs.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

People always refer to HW like that was SEs bread and butter lol first off Gordias was a mistake SE is trying very hard from repeating as they lost alot of players during that time and it also envoked the whole dps only generation, thordan ex upon release was a nightmare to deal with, people still can't do nidghogg till this day lol nuff said...

HW may have been a challenge to some but it also had some of the worse fights we know to date and SE is trying to avoid those flops again, so although they need to raise the difficulty on ex primals and savage they have to be really careful about how they do it...

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Can we knock off the Strawman?

Gordias was undoubtedly a mistake, though primarily due to the devs not properly testing it. That does not mean the game ought to be made into a complete cakewalk. People unable to do Nidhogg are either bad players who can't be bothered to learn mechanics or simply aren't interested in harder content. He's among the least mechanically intense fights HW offered. This only underlines the problem that instead of establishing a proper difficulty curve, the devs continuously nerf everything. Thus people have little to no incentive to improve since hey, stuff will just get easier. Ironically, when people cried over Weeping City and Nidhogg normal, Yoshida refused to nerf either... and what do you know. People got over it.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Again it is an exploit.The devs hadnt intended the tank LB to be used to skip the phase.They admit they hadnt checked it.
This means the phase was programmed wrong and the phase doesnt overide the tank LB.But like i said it's too late to fix the exploit now.
And i guess to be fair it was an error on their side too with the coding.

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Using an LB ment for use with Squadrons was an exploit. It was not ment for standard play and thus no content involving more then one human player is balanced around it, thus why they are/did/kinda(?) fixed it.

Tank LB3 is not an exploit because it is a mechanic that we have had since the start/since players got to 8-man content. It was rarely ever needed, and the few pieces of content it was used in were usually places we were forced to use it in BECAUSE we rarely needed it. The devs not thinking it would be useful in Byakko does not mean it is an exploit, it just means the way they decided to make Byakko's raid wipe mechanic was suffeciently different from other Extreme fights that a new strat became viable.

I do think that if all groups were forced to do it the "intended" way VIA dpsing the tiger down, their might be slightly less clears as some groups I have been only barley beat enrage even with Tank LB3...yet at the same time if we didn't Tank LB3 it we would just Melee LB3 it so either way LB is used for the same mechanic.

I seriously think ppl that call the lb3 tank on Biakko an “exploit”.. really don’t know what the term means...
I’m sorry but you must be new to mmorpgs.

It is norm and intended by game developers for the community to use the tools in game, provided by self developers to beat a determined Boss...

Gamers, developers, Yoshida, your aunt and uncle may come and say “such tactic was not intended”.. if the gamers beat a certain boss using the tools provided by such game/developers.. than that is a legitimate way of defeating such boss.. Not an exploit!

Stop that nonessense... please...